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Playing Card Chat ♠ ♥ ♣ ♦ => Playing Card Plethora => Topic started by: CBJ on January 18, 2012, 09:21:03 AM
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Interesting post from BigBlindMedia...
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NEWS FLASH - the new karnival deck (karnival inferno) has just been banned by BICYCLE. they won't manufacture it due to potential satantic imagery?!?! how ROCK are we?
(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae240/1rideout/394774_294542470593738_140067396041247_774734_1147826852_n.jpg)
First... another Karnival deck???
Second... refuse to print a deck?? wow
CBJ
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Ha ha ha... awesome. I like this a look a lot, actually. I guess they're running Haicycle or Cartimundi for this one, then? Maybe one of the more liberal USPCC derivatives will print it (Forunier, Canada).
EDIT: Oh, wait. Do they mean they just won't print it under the Bicycle brand? Who cares?!
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That is going to be just another freaky deck. I have only liked a couple BBM decks and this one.... I don't like at all
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Their last two decks weren't Bicycles, and their last deck wasn't USPC - it was Fournier. Since their British-based, it's probably as easier for them to approach other companies over there; there's a few to choose from.
I still find it odd that USPC "banned" this deck - might it be a publicity stunt?
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Well, the wording states that it was banned by 'Bicycle', not the USPCC so I'm guessing they just didn't want it put out under their brand. I guess we'll see if there's suddenly a Fournier Karnival deck in a month's time.
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I think the middle-finger is more indicative of why the deck was declined. If it was declined purely because of Satanic imagery, then as much as I have a distaste for BBM decks, that's just wrong. Companies should push forward the concept of free speech and free art. If religious zealots are offended by the imagery, they are within reason to not purchase the cards.
I guess this is the deck they were talking about on the phone last time when I asked about what kind of things can be declined by their legal department. I am curious to see where BBM prints now.
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USPC is a private company, and while the rules are generally "unwritten", there are certain things that they may decide not to print. If I recall correctly, the original design for the Ace of Spades on E's Ghost Deck had more detailed snakes. USPC had an issue with this for some reason, so the snake artwork was toned down a bit.
As a private company that promotes a family brand/product line, it's totally their prerogative to rufse to print whatever images they like, whatever the reason may be.
In the case of this particular deck, we don't know exactly why BBM was turned down. And odds are there is a company out there somewhere that would print it. Alternately, I'm sure USPC told BBM what changes they could make to the deck in order to make it "acceptable".
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USPC is a private company, and while the rules are generally "unwritten", there are certain things that they may decide not to print. If I recall correctly, the original design for the Ace of Spades on E's Ghost Deck had more detailed snakes. USPC had an issue with this for some reason, so the snake artwork was toned down a bit.
As a private company that promotes a family brand/product line, it's totally their prerogative to rufse to print whatever images they like, whatever the reason may be.
In the case of this particular deck, we don't know exactly why BBM was turned down. And odds are there is a company out there somewhere that would print it. Alternately, I'm sure USPC told BBM what changes they could make to the deck in order to make it "acceptable".
It's not a question of whether or not it is within their legal rights, it's a question of whether or not it's an act that should be promoted or frowned upon.
USPCC being a family brand is an odd argument on their behalf, considering they are the distributors of some of the most popular pornographic decks in history, as well as some of the goriest decks and controversial decks.
It's pretty clear here that the ulterior motive is a personal distaste within their legal department.
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If anyone here owns the BICYCLE alchemy deck, you'll realize how ridiculous this is. That deck is so full of satanic freaky images, 10x worse than that joker.
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Yeah this was weird to read about. BBM seemed pretty excited about it haha.
Could be a publicity stunt... it makes for talk on both ends. BBM is "too rock for Bicycle" (as they put it) and Bicycle is trying to keep up an image. That's kind of the vibe I'm getting from this.
I don't care for the deck anyways so it really means very little to me
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If anyone here owns the BICYCLE alchemy deck, you'll realize how ridiculous this is. That deck is so full of satanic freaky images, 10x worse than that joker.
Same goes for the Anne Stokes deck. No demons flipping the bird, but all the other imagery is in line with this joker.
I still assert there's a publicity stunt behind this.
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I doubt it is a publicity thing, This deck IMO is not what should be being printed especially by a bigger company, Why would we want some twisted demonic thing on out cards? Cards are suposed to be beautiful and elegant, Sure some skulls in a deck look cool but crazy Devils fingering people, I dont think the USPCC would want their company represented with this deck and personally I dont like it I feel they went a little too far on this one.
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crazy Devils fingering people
Ha ha ha... well, they didn't quite go THAT far. As Alex pointed out, they have printed actually pornographic decks before. Thy're supposed to be providing a service but I agree that as a private company, they have the right to refuse for any reason. I still think it's just that they didn't want it under the Bicycle logo rather than refusing to print it altogether.
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crazy Devils fingering people
Ha ha ha... well, they didn't quite go THAT far. As Alex pointed out, they have printed actually pornographic decks before. Thy're supposed to be providing a service but I agree that as a private company, they have the right to refuse for any reason. I still think it's just that they didn't want it under the Bicycle logo rather than refusing to print it altogether.
I didn't read the news flash myself, but I don't think they're using Bicycle on their decks anymore - their last two decks didn't have it (Hornets and Death Heads). It could be that people having sex makes them less squeamish than a devil character flipping people the bird.
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Oh wow I didn't notice his fingers there.. I agree it's borderline for sure, but I still look back on the alchemy deck I bought and it's insanely horrific lol. They have the right do whatever though!
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I don't see any satanic images in the Alchemy deck. lots of blood and skulls but nothing traditionally satanic like the above image. I don't think he's supposed to be flipping people off, I think he's usually depicted like that and it pre-dates the use of 'the bird'.
Hmmm... decided to do a little research and it seems that it's usually depicted holding both the middle and index finger outstretched but there are early examples .
It's a depiction of 'Baphomet' and it isn't satanic at all, but commonly mistaken for it. I actually knew the rest myself (it was in 'Broken Sword', if anyone ever played that). Baphomet was a fictional god invented by King Phillip IV of France. He didn't like the Knight's Templar very much (long story short) so he invented this god and claimed that the Templars were worshipping it as an excuse to start an inquisition. Of course, the inquisitors knew that this was nonsense so rather than torturing them with the intent of conversion, the inquisitors simply executed or tortured to death the Knights Templar, killing almost all of them and forcing the rest and their vast wealth into hiding. The Templars continued to exist underground and in the 17th century resurfaced as pirates (the historical details about this are sketchy at best because they were still a secret organization at this point). The organization survived and grew throughout this period and became what we know today as the Free Masons.
tl;dr That's not Satan.
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I don't see any satanic images in the Alchemy deck. lots of blood and skulls but nothing traditionally satanic like the above image. I don't think he's supposed to be flipping people off, I think he's usually depicted like that and it pre-dates the use of 'the bird'.
Hmmm... decided to do a little research and it seems that it's usually depicted holding both the middle and index finger outstretched but there are early examples .
It's a depiction of 'Baphomet' and it isn't satanic at all, but commonly mistaken for it. I actually knew the rest myself (it was in 'Broken Sword', if anyone ever played that). Baphomet was a fictional god invented by King Phillip IV of France. He didn't like the Knight's Templar very much (long story short) so he invented this god and claimed that the Templars were worshipping it as an excuse to start an inquisition. Of course, the inquisitors knew that this was nonsense so rather than torturing them with the intent of conversion, the inquisitors simply executed or tortured to death the Knights Templar, killing almost all of them and forcing the rest and their vast wealth into hiding. The Templars continued to exist underground and in the 17th century resurfaced as pirates (the historical details about this are sketchy at best because they were still a secret organization at this point). The organization survived and grew throughout this period and became what we know today as the Free Masons.
tl;dr That's not Satan.
Do you not see those satanic star things? (I don't know what they are called)
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I don't see any satanic images in the Alchemy deck. lots of blood and skulls but nothing traditionally satanic like the above image. I don't think he's supposed to be flipping people off, I think he's usually depicted like that and it pre-dates the use of 'the bird'.
Hmmm... decided to do a little research and it seems that it's usually depicted holding both the middle and index finger outstretched but there are early examples .
It's a depiction of 'Baphomet' and it isn't satanic at all, but commonly mistaken for it. I actually knew the rest myself (it was in 'Broken Sword', if anyone ever played that). Baphomet was a fictional god invented by King Phillip IV of France. He didn't like the Knight's Templar very much (long story short) so he invented this god and claimed that the Templars were worshipping it as an excuse to start an inquisition. Of course, the inquisitors knew that this was nonsense so rather than torturing them with the intent of conversion, the inquisitors simply executed or tortured to death the Knights Templar, killing almost all of them and forcing the rest and their vast wealth into hiding. The Templars continued to exist underground and in the 17th century resurfaced as pirates (the historical details about this are sketchy at best because they were still a secret organization at this point). The organization survived and grew throughout this period and became what we know today as the Free Masons.
tl;dr That's not Satan.
Do you not see those satanic star things? (I don't know what they are called)
They are called Pentagrams.
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Do you not see those satanic star things? (I don't know what they are called)
That's called a pentacle (often mis-referred to as pentagram), and it's not entirely satanic. The symbol has a variety of meanings in various religions throughout history; however, it usually carries some sort of religious connotations with it. Be it Satanism, Wiccan, or even Christianity, it has symbolism in all of them.
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I didn't see a complete pentacle in any of the cards in the alchemy deck. There were things that looked vaguely like them and I might have missed a couple, I guess but I didn't see anything that was definitely a pentacle. As AceGambit pointed out, it's also not really a satanic symbol. The lower four points depict the 4 elements and I think the other one is the soul? Not sure, i's used to represent whole bunches of stuff. interestingly, both that and the Sabbatic Goat pictured above were introduced into popular culture by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliphas_Levi that bloke (and his damn fine beard).
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I didn't see a complete pentacle in any of the cards in the alchemy deck.
Knapped, I do believe you are correct, at a closer examination of my Google search results for that deck, which I do not own, I believe the confusion was with the 6 sided circle encased star on the back of the Alchemist X deck. A six sided star has certain meaning in Jewish culture, but when enclosed in a circle I don't believe I've ever seen that used to represent anything specific.
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Freemasons use it, actually. I think it can be the Seal of Solomon (which the pentacle can also be).
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I didn't see a complete pentacle in any of the cards in the alchemy deck. There were things that looked vaguely like them and I might have missed a couple, I guess but I didn't see anything that was definitely a pentacle. As AceGambit pointed out, it's also not really a satanic symbol. The lower four points depict the 4 elements and I think the other one is the soul? Not sure, i's used to represent whole bunches of stuff. interestingly, both that and the Sabbatic Goat pictured above were introduced into popular culture by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliphas_Levi that bloke (and his damn fine beard).
I was talking about this deck that was refused to be printed... not the alchemy deck
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A quick search for Seal of Solomon explains why it was used on the back of the Alchemist deck. Some multiplication and division of the points represent Fire, Water, Earth, and Air. The elements of Alchemy.
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Refusing to print a deck? That's ludicrous.
I think the USPCC's just being stupid here. It's sure to raise a few heated discussions. :P
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BigBlindMedia writes:
"we are still working on untangling the printing issues with the KARNIVAL INFERNO DECK. but we are hopeful we can sort it out now. i have read some stuff online saying that we are doing it as a 'publicity stunt'. wish i was clever enough to have thought of that. karnival-inc - bringing satan to your second deal."
And another photo... (CLICK FOR LARGER PHOTO)
CBJ
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That thing is creepy as hell! (no pun intended)
Lets just say, I won't be buying it.
I do think its pretty cool that the box looks like a book though
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I will not buy this deck, I can see why thay say there is satanic imagery and I dont think the USPCC should print it. In respose to the people talking about them printing pornographic decks, I personally dont think that is as bad as a deck with a bunch of satanic pictures and symbols. I dont think the porno deck is as bad because those decks as printed as a novelty for guys on their poker night, they are just a fun deck ;)
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Haha yeah.... that's one hell of a box. I'm not going to get this one. Not my style.
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I will not buy this deck, I can see why thay say there is satanic imagery and I dont think the USPCC should print it. In respose to the people talking about them printing pornographic decks, I personally dont think that is as bad as a deck with a bunch of satanic pictures and symbols. I dont think the porno deck is as bad because those decks as printed as a novelty for guys on their poker night, they are just a fun deck ;)
So, are you saying that allowing young men and teenage boys (who invariably get their hands on these things) to objectify women for their own pleasure is better than making a deck with imagery that would appeal mostly to neo-goths, metal heads and emo kids? (And me! I'm a sucker for goth-y/dark stuff, it's from my youth.)
I have my sincere doubts that this deck would convert a single person to the Church of Satan. At worst, it might give a little kid a bad dream, but this isn't exactly a kid-approved deck, no more than a porno deck would be. It's no better than the argument that Dungeons & Dragons encouraged devil worship among kids who played it. That game's been around now for nearly four decades - the argument was frivolous and groundless.
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i say take the middle finger out of the joker and print the damned deck...
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i say take the middle finger out of the joker and print the damned deck...
I say keep it in. haha It's not a big deal! I agree with what @Sabacc said. Sure, I don't love the deck but that's because it's not my taste. I think there isn't much wrong with the deck. I think there should be some freedom of speech in what they print.
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As has already been discussed in this thread, the imagery is NOT EVEN SATANIC. Look; the Church of Satan is not an old organization. It was founded in the 1960s and anything described as satanic worship before then was actually magick worship more akin to Wikka or Druidism; satan never entered the picture as satan is a Christian invention.
The images depicted in this deck are far older than it. In fact, in many ways the most 'Satanic' images in here are actually Christian images, depicting their mythology, drawn by Christian artists. I think all that stuff is really interesting personally (as evidenced by the above discussion with AceGambit) and anyone who disagrees is stuck in the warped mindset of a 12th Century inquisitor (I'm looking at you, American religious right).
Personally, I would describe the deck as historical and Gothic rather than satanic.
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I truly enjoyed the discussion between Kanped and AceGambit. Thanks for opening my eyes to the greatness of Baphomet!
Oh, and I like the design of the Inferno deck. I will definitely add this to my collection.
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Whether you hate or love BBM, or something in between, you have to acknowledge the symbolism in this deck as something that can really work wonders with some of the patter we use for card tricks. The deck is called the Inferno deck, I'm already imagining patter surrounding the ferryman Charon or some other story inspired by the Divine Comedy. Which, btw, if anyone here enjoys the imagery in this deck or how different religions view hell, check out Dante's Divine Comedy, it's old, but there are English translations out there which are quite good.
Imagine an ambitious card routine that involves a story about Dante's journey into purgatory and back again using this deck to tell the story. As a card magician, something I'm always looking for is a way to make the patter more real. A way to engage the audience in the stories you tell to go along with your tricks. There's a reason kids understand what they read better with picture books. Pictures help emphasize the stories we tell -- in the same way I can imagine this deck emphasizing some of the patter for a card routine.
I personally hope they DO print this deck -- as is. I know I will buy a few if they do. It would be the first deck BBM released that I deemed worthy of my money (as I don't as of yet own any of their decks).
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I'm seconding reading The Divine Comedy if you haven't. It's one of the greatest works of literature EVER and is a story of a man battling some very real demons. I'll admit, I've only read the Inferno part of it but it stands on its own as well as (presumably) as a complete work.
I wonder if it would do any good to state that I will buy this deck only if it is unaltered and uncompromising?
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I too have only read the first part, I'd always wanted to read the other two, I just never got around to it. I'm thinking if they compromised on some of the artwork on this deck, and things were changed from the artists intent due to censorship or what have you, that would likely deter me from purchasing it as well. I don't think BBM has a presence in this forum, but that would be good information for them to know.
Dear BBM,
Do not compromise on your deck's artwork, your sales will suffer because of it.
Love,
All of Us
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I fired off an email to the USPCC to get their perspective or some sort of statement about it. We still don't know for sure that they point blank refused to print it. I don't know if BBM even realize that the images aren't Satanic so if I drop some medieval artwork knowledge, maybe the USPCC might reconsider. I mean, there's an argument to be had here. Religious sensibilities infringing on artistic expression? I want me some of that action!
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I love this deck and everything surrounding it. We have people like Kanped who actually have the knowledge to support their views, people like Brown who don't bash it and just say "it's not my style", then others who think that their religious views should be shared by all and that if it strays from "christianity" then it should not exist. I mean...if I were 12 or 13 and living with my parents, I too might be thinking "oh my god, mommy would be pissed if she saw these cards..." If there were a deck coming out with crosses all over it (a cross being the murder weapon of Christ, mind you) would it catch this much heat? Probably not. Are we not right to our own religious views? Any way, I dig this deck. It needs to be printed NOW! How am I to properly praise Satan without this deck? ;D
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@sinsandman that shit was funny!!
i feel the USPCC should print the deck, i wouldnt buy it cause its not my style. however, the uspcc has the right to refuse whatever they want; they are their own business. just because we 'mericans have "free speech" doesn't mean everyone has to help express what we want.
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I think they're within their rights to refuse any customer for any reason HOWEVER, they are a company that prints cards. They are not an authority on taste, neither are they an arbiter of morality. In other words, while they have a right to refuse custom they have no responsibility to decide what to print; they're pretty much sticking their nose into an area that shouldn't concern them (taste and decency).
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While I might not necessarily agree with USPC's decision not to produce this deck period...I do understand why they wouldn't want to produce it under the Bicycle Brand. Bicycle is easily the most recognized playing card brand in America. While you or I might not care what they put on a deck of Bicycle playing cards, USPC isn't worried about "Moderate America". They are worried about Right/Left Wing America. Would a 13 or 14 year old become a satanist because of these cards...absolutely not. Would the same 13 or 14 year old's parents make a huge stink about these if they were Right-Wing Religous....absolutely. Most of Corporate America takes great pains to stay in the middle on most topics...especially anything that would get them bad press. While sadly like @Sabaac said we've already been through this before with RPG's...I'd been willing to bet some Moron would still make a huge stink about this.
What I don't understand is their unwillingness to meet on a middle ground and produce these as non-bicycle branded. Just produce these like the Dose and don't put Bicycle on the box. I'd be willing to bet if you took an average person, not a collector/magician/flourisher, and asked them who made a deck of DandD cards or even a deck of Tally's they would answer with whatever the name is on the box.
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http://chewmk.blogspot.com/2010/09/bicycle-alchemy-anne-stokes-playing.html (http://chewmk.blogspot.com/2010/09/bicycle-alchemy-anne-stokes-playing.html)
Nothing more to say. ::)
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http://chewmk.blogspot.com/2010/09/bicycle-alchemy-anne-stokes-playing.html (http://chewmk.blogspot.com/2010/09/bicycle-alchemy-anne-stokes-playing.html)
Nothing more to say. ::)
While that deck has some dark imagery, Anne Stokes is a Gothic artist. Her artwork in the Alchemy deck hardly carries with it the same bold religious references that the Inferno deck presents. While one could argue by transition that the Alchemy deck does in fact have religious references, they are far more subtle than those of the Inferno deck, therefore, I think the Alchemy deck is a poor comparison for USPCC's decision on the Inferno deck. Additionally, what USPCC has done in the past by no means should absolutely dictate their decisions now. Say they HAD printed an entirely satanic deck in the past, and it went terrible for them, just cause they've done it before doesn't mean they should or want to do it again.
USPCC is a private company, therefore they have the right to refuse service to a customer on pretty much whatever grounds they want to. If USPCC's PR guys think that printing the Inferno deck will give them unwanted bad press, they are entitled to be wrong, but that's their choice.
As far as BBM is concerned, I think USPCC's decision should not dissuade them from producing this deck. It's the best one I've seen in the Karnival series yet, and I want to see it printed.
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There's something really weird about the USPCC having 'PR guys'. IMO, they should be entirely technical and should not need any kind of publicity; it's not like they have competition. Their brands on the other hand, could have PR people but not USPCC itself. Airbrush out (or, even better, put a black mark over) where it says 'Bicycle' and print that sh...tuff!
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There's something really weird about the USPCC having 'PR guys'. IMO, they should be entirely technical and should not need any kind of publicity; it's not like they have competition.
What do you mean? TJX as a company has PR guys, even though they are nothing more than the corporate offices behind TJ Maxx, Marshalls, and Home Goods. While they care about the image of their stores with respect to their consumers, TJX cares about the image of it's corporation as a whole with respect to investors and whatnot. It's a different kind of PR, but it's still PR.
USPCC should be the same way; they care about the publicity of their brands with respect to the consumers, but as far as investors are concerned, USPCC cares about what they look like as a company, the kinds of important decisions they make matter to people who are buying/selling their stocks. Choosing to (or not to) print a deck reflects on the company as a whole, and that's an important consideration for PR from a corporate stance.
I am in no way affiliated with TJX corp, that was just an example
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I'm just of the impression that investors and customers at a trade level should be interested only in figures, which accountants provide. I think spin-doctoring at that level is total BS that's no good to anyone. If you're not going to me methodical, critical and technical about your investment and instead like big speeches and flashy diagrams, don't invest.
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There's a small detail we've been leaving out in all of this debate.
It's not simply USPC anymore - it's Jarden Consumer Products. USPC's been a subsidiary of this big conglomerate now for nearly a decade. Jarden is far more business-oriented than tradition-oriented or customer-oriented. It was under their watch that the USPC playing card museum was shut down. Ye olde USPC might have had no issues on this subject, but as a division of a larger company, they have other issues to contend with than simply what they want to do.
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Hey guys
Owen from BigBlindMedia wrote to me today...
"karnival dead eyes, karnival assassins and karnival dose (redux) are all released from feb 20. they might appear earlier in some stores (esp. in the USA), as certain wholesalers have them there already. the dead eyes and assassins are in a limited edition rainbow foil tuckcase, and the Dose Deck has a redesigned back with a non-oneway image.
we are also working on the karnival inferno (as i know you folks are aware). once we have worked through the issue with potential satanic imagery we should be good to get that out in the summer."
Just passing it along
CBJ
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we are also working on the karnival inferno (as i know you folks are aware). once we have worked through the issue with potential satanic imagery we should be good to get that out in the summer."
Boy do I hope that "worked through the issue" means "bent them over and convinced them to print the damn deck anyway."
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Whatever happened to their Suicide Kings deck?
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Whatever happened to their Suicide Kings deck?
I was actually wondering the same thing! I haven't seen anything about it recently.
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Whatever happened to their Suicide Kings deck?
I was actually wondering the same thing! I haven't seen anything about it recently.
I never caught the video - I'm always at work when I want to watch it. What was the story to start with? Weren't the Suicide Kings a promo deck made for a third party?
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The Suicide Kings is being done in conjunction with Bluff Magazine.
(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae240/1rideout/Karnival-SK01-OK.jpg)
I'll shoot Owen an e-mail to find out the status of this deck.
CBJ
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Let us know what you hear from them! I'm more interested in this BBM deck than any other. I really like the style of art that they are using on this one. It's got an old rock&roll/tattoo type feel to it. It should make for a very nice looking deck!
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i have never had a Karnival deck i hope this deck comes out so i can try to get it.
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Sadly, it looks like this deck is going to be censored before release. Now, if there is a reduction in sales, I think Bicycle is just going to take it as a public dislike of this kind of design rather than a protest against the censorship but I don't know. I had the following correspondence with the designer;
Subject: Inferno 'satanic' issues
Project name: Inferno
Website:
Message:
Hey, I've taken an interest in the issues with the Inferno deck. I'm just wondering if anyone's pointed out that these images aren't Satanic? I know they have that association these days but it's nonsense; everything that you've released are based on images that WAY pre-date Satanism (that movement didn't really start until the 60s). More than that, the pentacle and sabbatic goat are, arguably Christian images (or part of their mythology, anyway). That whole argument is ridiculous; it's no difference than those people who cry moral outrage at Slayer album covers and people giving the 'devil horns' at rock gigs. Only crazies think like that.
Thing is, is it USPCC or Bicycle that has the issue? If it's Bikes, I've been chatting around the forums and the people who like/love the deck design, myself included, couldn't give a toss about the Bicycle branding. IMO, the best thing to do would be take a big black marker to where it says 'Bicycle' on the box and leave it there, like a censored letter home from the war.
And got this response today;
Hi Chris,
Yes we have pointed out those details to Bicycle. It is totally nonsense ! They have censored all pentagrams on the deck (which are on all the cards and box!) + the image of the sabbatic 'goat' can't be used. It has been censored by the Bicycle Marketing team!
Crazy stuff !
Thanks for your support and interest.
Cheers
Sam
This blows...
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Consider me officially disappointed.
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Just like many more recent BBM decks, I am disappointed with the back of this deck. I won't buy it as long as the back design doesn't change.
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Where did you see the back design?
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It does suck that the deck is being censored.
It would be very nice indeed if there was an independent company out there for manufacturing playing cards that dealt specifically with small-batch and specialty designs like the ones we're always buying - and with a quality level that could meet (or even EXCEED) the quality offered by USPC. It's about time their monopolistic hold on the marketplace got challenged. Has this ever gone before the Justice Department? The closest thing they have to competition in the US is U.S. Games Systems and perhaps Paulson - but USGS deals almost exclusively in Tarot decks (and their quality of playing cards is meh) and Paulson deals largely with casinos.
It would need to be a company much like Dark Horse was when it first started publishing comics - a company where artists have near-total control and freedom over their work and retain the rights afterwards (except on licensed properties like Star Wars, Predator, etc.). You could get ANY deck printed, and the company would merely be a contractor working for you. No "you use my brand or pay more," no "you can't print that," no "that'll take two months...no, wait, three months...no, hold on, six months," no "oh, we did this for you without asking - it costs extra" - none of the crap that little companies with big aspirations and ideas have to deal with.
I think I need to talk with my fiancee about a new business model...
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Yeah that's actually a super idea. Just run down to your local Wal-Mart pick up a few feed presses and the chemicals to make a custom finish that equates or out-performs Air-Cushion, you're in business. :P
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I've been increasingly impressed with Cartimundi recently. Got a Magic Castle deck yesterday. You can see dimples on it, but it feels exactly like a smooth finish. The handling reminds me a lot of my beloved Steamboats. Have any serious 'art' deck designers ever tried them? The only non-USPCC custom deck I can think of is the Death Heads and Fournier is USPCC owned, anyway.
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I've been increasingly impressed with Cartimundi recently. Got a Magic Castle deck yesterday. You can see dimples on it, but it feels exactly like a smooth finish. The handling reminds me a lot of my beloved Steamboats. Have any serious 'art' deck designers ever tried them? The only non-USPCC custom deck I can think of is the Death Heads and Fournier is USPCC owned, anyway.
In time, they're gonna feel like c.r.a.p. Cartamundi's quality can be inconsistent.
BTW: it has a hidden one-way.
I want to make this happen. I want to make a company that gives the smaller press-run designers a velvet glove approach.
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The deck actually looks pretty cool. And the middle finger.... Wow. ;)
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Well here's the revamped joker...
(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae240/1rideout/joker.jpg)
and here's the old one
(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae240/1rideout/394774_294542470593738_140067396041247_774734_1147826852_n.jpg)
What do you guys think??
CBJ
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If I had seen the second one first, I might have liked it better, but knowing that it's a compromise makes it less inviting. All the same, I still like it. I wish they would swap the star at the bottom for the old one though. Getting rid of the middle finger, I can accept as a compromise, but the pentacles they should have kept. As well as whatever those lion looking things at the bottom of the old one were, I liked those.
I really like the new symbol at the top (they CBS symbol in a sun haha), but I'm not sure of its cultural meaning. I think that's what I liked most about the original one, it had so much religious and cultural symbolism. The new one seems like it's just aiming for theme without representation.
I don't know how I feel about the eyes on the new one. I think it might have looked better with just a silhouette; no eyes. I'd really like to see some of the other cards and the box.
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Its definitely less satanic and I think the USPCC will definitely consider it now.
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can someone explain why the CBS symbol inside of a sun?
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The CBS symbol is actual an all seeing eye. Here's a video that gives some more background on the CBS logo side of it and it'll probably help you understand what it stands for outside of television...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB63odkphhg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB63odkphhg)
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Personally, I'm liking the new Joker. They had to compromise. It sucks. But, the one thing you need to remember is that making and selling playing cards is a business, and in business, compromises have to be made very often.
Imagine the film director or cinematographer capturing a heart-breakingly beautiful scene, only to discover in editing that it drags the film's pace down to a halt. They want to keep the gorgeous scene, but recognize that the film will be better without it - a good editor makes the cut, a good director approves it. Then it becomes a DVD extra...
The other art was nice, this piece was a compromise piece, but honestly, it's a better one in my opinion.
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Wish they would keep the 'star' and the two goats below on the previous version.. the revamped one looks like it's missing something..
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I think the new joker is better. But the horn should be bigger or it would be like a shadow of a normal man than a satan.
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Hey, this reminds me of a story I heard...
Luc Besson is preparing to shoot "The Fifth Element". He wants to get Chris Tucker to agree to wear a particular costume, one that Luc knew Chris would almost certainly reject - remember, his "Ruby Rhod" character wore some very outlandish stuff in that film, stuff that would have all the drag queens envious!
So Luc talks to his costume designer and hatches a plan. He asks the designer to make another costume that's even more over the top than the one he wanted Chris to wear; just beyond bizarre. He then invites Chris in and gives him the "choice" of which costume would be best. Naturally, he chose the least outlandish of the two, which is the one the director wanted him to wear in the first place.
Look at the amount of time we've spent discussing this deck. Look at how in general that new joker seems to be well-liked. Who wants to wager that the second joker was their first choice all along and they put the worse one in front of USPC in order to soften them up enough to accept the second one without arguments?
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Hey, this reminds me of a story I heard...
Luc Besson is preparing to shoot "The Fifth Element". He wants to get Chris Tucker to agree to wear a particular costume, one that Luc knew Chris would almost certainly reject - remember, his "Ruby Rhod" character wore some very outlandish stuff in that film, stuff that would have all the drag queens envious!
So Luc talks to his costume designer and hatches a plan. He asks the designer to make another costume that's even more over the top than the one he wanted Chris to wear; just beyond bizarre. He then invites Chris in and gives him the "choice" of which costume would be best. Naturally, he chose the least outlandish of the two, which is the one the director wanted him to wear in the first place.
Look at the amount of time we've spent discussing this deck. Look at how in general that new joker seems to be well-liked. Who wants to wager that the second joker was their first choice all along and they put the worse one in front of USPC in order to soften them up enough to accept the second one without arguments?
The first joker seems more BBM though... you know what I mean? I could see that happening though. It's the classic "door in the face technique".
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Its definitely less satanic and I think the USPCC will definitely consider it now.
It is NOT less Satanic! The first one wasn't Satanic AT ALL.
@Don, I get wat you're saying but I don't think BBM would have expected USPCC to reject it. I know I wouldn't have. I'm with Ace on this one; I really liked all the cultural ans symbolic references throughout the deck that have now been removed. I hate religion. I really, really do.
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Hey, this reminds me of a story I heard...
Luc Besson is preparing to shoot "The Fifth Element". He wants to get Chris Tucker to agree to wear a particular costume, one that Luc knew Chris would almost certainly reject - remember, his "Ruby Rhod" character wore some very outlandish stuff in that film, stuff that would have all the drag queens envious!
So Luc talks to his costume designer and hatches a plan. He asks the designer to make another costume that's even more over the top than the one he wanted Chris to wear; just beyond bizarre. He then invites Chris in and gives him the "choice" of which costume would be best. Naturally, he chose the least outlandish of the two, which is the one the director wanted him to wear in the first place.
Look at the amount of time we've spent discussing this deck. Look at how in general that new joker seems to be well-liked. Who wants to wager that the second joker was their first choice all along and they put the worse one in front of USPC in order to soften them up enough to accept the second one without arguments?
This is similar to a story about the film Fight Club. The original line that was shot for Marla's pillow talk with Tyler Fox demanded that Fincher change. What he changed it too was even MORE ridiculous, but David refused to change it back cause he loved the new one so much.
I'd really like to see some additional images to go with deck released. A joker is one thing, but I'm not sure how it's gonna vibe with the rest of the deck. If they kept the pentacles on the other cards, I can accept the sacrifice on the Joker, but if they redid the whole deck, I'll be upset.
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@Don - I thought the same thing, but I still am not sure if USPCC will accept this one. Personally, I like this new one better, and think it will please more people, as it is less crazy and more eye appealing in my opinion.
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Hey, this reminds me of a story I heard...
Luc Besson is preparing to shoot "The Fifth Element". He wants to get Chris Tucker to agree to wear a particular costume, one that Luc knew Chris would almost certainly reject - remember, his "Ruby Rhod" character wore some very outlandish stuff in that film, stuff that would have all the drag queens envious!
So Luc talks to his costume designer and hatches a plan. He asks the designer to make another costume that's even more over the top than the one he wanted Chris to wear; just beyond bizarre. He then invites Chris in and gives him the "choice" of which costume would be best. Naturally, he chose the least outlandish of the two, which is the one the director wanted him to wear in the first place.
Look at the amount of time we've spent discussing this deck. Look at how in general that new joker seems to be well-liked. Who wants to wager that the second joker was their first choice all along and they put the worse one in front of USPC in order to soften them up enough to accept the second one without arguments?
haha it could be, in negotiating terms, lower the offer you wanted and 'raise' it so that it seems the other party benefits more. Show them something they don't want so that they're more likely to want the second 'better' offer..
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@Don - I thought the same thing, but I still am not sure if USPCC will accept this one. Personally, I like this new one better, and think it will please more people, as it is less crazy and more eye appealing in my opinion.
USPC would have little to no reason to reject this one, especially since it's the far-lesser of two "evils". There's practically no symbolism that could be mistaken for Satanism or devil worship. The closest you get is a character seen only in shadow bearing glowing eyes, horns and wings - you can't really tell if it's a demonic angel or an angelic demon!
I still think it's something similar to a Hobson's choice, although rather than "all-or-nothing", the choice is "something you might not like versus something you'll definitely not like".
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Yeah I agree with Don again. I don't know how they could reject this. If they did it would only be for buzz and to get people talking (although I don't think it would be good talk). They used the classic door in the face on this one. (more info on that tactic here.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_technique (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_technique) if you want it ;) )
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@AceGambit; they redid the entire deck; there will be no pentacles at all now.
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Yeah I agree with Don again. I don't know how they could reject this. If they did it would only be for buzz and to get people talking (although I don't think it would be good talk). They used the classic door in the face on this one. (more info on that tactic here.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_technique (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_technique) if you want it ;) )
That's a fine description of the Chris Tucker "Fifth Element" scenario. I didn't even describe it completely correctly, but that's it in a nutshell. The whacked-out costume was offered first, then the director's choice was offered.
@AceGambit; they redid the entire deck; there will be no pentacles at all now.
I never saw the rest of the deck. Were there pentacles in other places as well? Where did you see the deck and can I get a peek?
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The artist told me in a email; it's back a few pages. There were some on the box that was posted (and are now going).
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The artist told me in a email; it's back a few pages. There were some on the box that was posted (and are now going).
Again, could've been legit, or could've been a "door-in-the-face" technique to insure the second choice got through. Only the artist and BBM know.
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so in my opinion, USPCC should not have tried to censor this deck, i feel that if they wanted to sell it they should, i will say i was not going to get the deck with the last design for it was just to dark for me, yet with how it changed im considering getting it now.
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so in my opinion, USPCC should not have tried to censor this deck, i feel that if they wanted to sell it they should, i will say i was not going to get the deck with the last design for it was just to dark for me, yet with how it changed im considering getting it now.
I guess the "door-in-the-face technique" is working on you, as well!
I'm open-minded. Maybe it's a genuine case of USPC refusing an order on the grounds that it might tarnish the company's image. Bear in mind that a lot of the people buying Bicycle decks are from rather conservative parts of the country, where a joker like that would stir some people up enough to boycott their products. (Meanwhile, the more liberal parts of the country either don't care or take Kanped's stance about wanting freedom to publish what they wish.) But on the other hand, the whole thing could have been a big publicity stunt, done either with or without USPC's knowledge and complicity, on the part of BBM.
Personally, I happen to like the second joker. The artwork is more dark and sinister, despite losing a degree of cultural connectedness. And as far as the box art - hey, boxes are nice, but I'm more interested in the cards INSIDE the boxes... The box is less than 2% of what I'm paying for.
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I don't think it's any kind of 'door-in-the-face' technique for the simple reason that the USPCC refusing to print a deck like this is pretty much unprecedented and there's no way they could have known it would be refused. Plus, they're hiring an artist to create bespoke, original artwork for the entire deck twice... it's a lot of money to pay for that.
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@Knaped Yeah, I saw that post.. I just want to see what they look like now. I hope the don't look like conservative trash with just flames and awkward burnt looking meaningless symbols all over them, but I fear that may be exactly what this deck turns into.
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@Knaped Yeah, I saw that post.. I just want to see what they look like now. I hope the don't look like conservative trash with just flames and awkward burnt looking meaningless symbols all over them, but I fear that may be exactly what this deck turns into.
I agree. Losing the fine details of the original "Goat of Mendes" engraving by Eliphas Levi , and taking away the cultural/historical references, makes this a much less interesting deck. Don't think I will be getting this deck now they have censored the life out of it.
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Does anyone have an update for this deck?
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Does anyone have an update for this deck?
I haven't heard BOO about this, Suicide Kings or Khaos since they were introduced (aside from the Inferno design change). Big Blind Media seems to apply their name literally when it comes to releasing promotional information about their own stuff!
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Hey guys
I sent Owen a message at BigBlindMedia, and here's what he wrote back...
"dude
the INFERNO deck will be out in 6-8 weeks. in production now.
the Karnival Khaos is in the early stages of development. won't be out for a while.
and the Suicide Kings is on hold. we are working with BLUFF poker magazine on that design - it should be launched at the tail end of the year.
hope that helps,
Owen Packard
Big Blind Media"
CBJ
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Oh HELL yes! I can't wait for this one. Thanks for the update
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Hey guys
I sent Owen a message at BigBlindMedia, and here's what he wrote back...
"dude
the INFERNO deck will be out in 6-8 weeks. in production now.
the Karnival Khaos is in the early stages of development. won't be out for a while.
and the Suicide Kings is on hold. we are working with BLUFF poker magazine on that design - it should be launched at the tail end of the year.
hope that helps,
Owen Packard
Big Blind Media"
CBJ
Awesome! So they will be releasing many decks this year! Let's hope they don't follow D&D's path!
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This is all good news. If BBM was releasing these like D&D, we'd be seeing all of these decks on the market by next month, practically one on top of another - these releases appear to be staggered out nicely, months apart from each other.
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Thanks CBJ for the update. That is really good news! I love BBM deck designs :D
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BigBlind Media released some promo photos today...
(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae240/1rideout/208897_393772160670768_1109534890_n.jpg)
(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae240/1rideout/319776_393780284003289_430421325_n.jpg)
(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae240/1rideout/575122_393760727338578_643404992_n.jpg)
CBJ
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Too satanic in my opinion with the star thing, pitchforks, and skulls. You can't forget the flames too!
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Actually, Pentacles ARE NOT Satanic. If anything, they are Christian. If you want to know more, feel free to PM me.
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Actually, Pentacles ARE NOT Satanic. If anything, they are Christian. If you want to know more, feel free to PM me.
false, they ARE pagan.
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Well, yes and no. Christianity stole it from a similar pagan symbol and associated it with the devil as to further slander paganism.
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Well, yes and no. Christianity stole it from a similar pagan symbol and associated it with the devil as to further slander paganism.
if by Christianity you mean roman catholicism that was brought in by constantine; then yes.
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Yes, that's what I meant. Didn't think I had to be so specific.
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I actually am a non-believer, but I absolutely love the box, and the simple courts. Very very nice. Wow.
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As am I Nathan. Also, I agree wholeheartedly about the design.
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Whether it's satanic or not, I'm still not feeling this deck at all. Don't get me wrong. I love the design, but it's the theme that I don't like.
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If you ask me, it's meant to look like the Necronomicon or some other "evil" book from out of an '80s slasher film. Which to me, makes them look like a lot of fun!
Karnival's ALWAYS been about the skulls and "evil" imagery. This deck is just taking that theme a baby-step further. The Dose deck looked like something out of the Nine Inch Nails video for "Closer", The Dead Eyes deck had blood splatter on several cards... It's just more of that, taking up a little notch. It's for "Criss Angel-ish" magicians or people who are into Goth and Neo-Goth. I've always been something of a "closet Goth", so Karnival's decks are a perfect fit for me.
My big hope is that they upgrade the stock, finish or both. All that ink's going to make this deck's performance take a serious hit if they don't use Magic Finish.
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This deck is now available for pre-order:
http://bigblindmedia.com/karnival-inferno.html
It's expected release is August 1st.
Order 6 or more decks and they'll send you Liam Montier's "Cardio" ebook at no charge.
No official release on their back design yet though. Curious.
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AMAZING deck with a huge difference with all the other decks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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This deck is now available for pre-order:
http://bigblindmedia.com/karnival-inferno.html (http://bigblindmedia.com/karnival-inferno.html)
It's expected release is August 1st.
Order 6 or more decks and they'll send you Liam Montier's "Cardio" ebook at no charge.
No official release on their back design yet though. Curious.
Am I the only person who noticed the photo of the tuck box on the pre-order site is DIFFERENT than the one posted earlier? That the pre-order version DOESN'T have the Bicycle brand name on it?
That doesn't surprise me considering the troubles this deck had, but it also doesn't bother me one bit.
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This deck is now available for pre-order:
http://bigblindmedia.com/karnival-inferno.html (http://bigblindmedia.com/karnival-inferno.html)
It's expected release is August 1st.
Order 6 or more decks and they'll send you Liam Montier's "Cardio" ebook at no charge.
No official release on their back design yet though. Curious.
Am I the only person who noticed the photo of the tuck box on the pre-order site is DIFFERENT than the one posted earlier? That the pre-order version DOESN'T have the Bicycle brand name on it?
That doesn't surprise me considering the troubles this deck had, but it also doesn't bother me one bit.
I hadn't noticed that. But it doesn't bother me either. I'm here for the design, not the branding etc.
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Another pic from BigBlindMedia
(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae240/1rideout/600627_395944653786852_339281341_n.jpg)
CBJ
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Ah! The back design is something else. That's about the only aspect of the deck that doesn't give me the full out creeps, only a tad bit. I like the design of the back, as well as the subtle one-way back, and especially the red borders. The only thing I do mind is the bull-looking thing in the center. Although I do mind it somewhat, I'm okay with it.
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Ah! The back design is something else. That's about the only aspect of the deck that doesn't give me the full out creeps, only a tad bit. I like the design of the back, as well as the subtle one-way back, and especially the red borders. The only thing I do mind is the bull-looking thing in the center. Although I do mind it somewhat, I'm okay with it.
I didn't find that star in the middle of the card to be a subtle one-way mark at ALL. It may be small, but it's also dead center.
(Perhaps they'll do a "Dose Deck" on this and release a foil edition with a more subtle one-way...)
The bull-looking thing is actually a little out of place - two large horns in the background, but a gas mask in the middle of them. Interesting design choice, but somehow to me it feels out of place in the deck's theme.
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The bull-looking thing is actually a little out of place - two large horns in the background, but a gas mask in the middle of them. Interesting design choice, but somehow to me it feels out of place in the deck's theme.
Very well said. I actually liked the artwork, and despite the work and nice art on the back, it just kills it for me. It just doesn't click for me.
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I'm not a big fan of this deck but I think the court cards look pretty cool. As for the back design, I think there's too much going on and I don't really like it.
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BigBlindMedia never really has been my favorite deck designs, not enough finesse is the least we could say =D
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BigBlindMedia never really has been my favorite deck designs, not enough finesse is the least we could say =D
"The least 'we' could say"? Are there more than one of you, or did you suddenly become royalty? :))
I'll get this one. I've actually liked the BBM decks, particularly the more recent, more custom releases. Some people are fed up with skulls and such, but I can't get enough.
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I think you're a ghost man. Your profile just makes me feel like you're haunted... :D
btw: Is it difficult to be a ghost, to have never been able to touch a deck of cards? What a terrible feeling this has to be. Looking at you're beautiful skull decks, and still not be able to even feel them. :-[
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I think you're a ghost man. Your profile just makes me feel like you're haunted... :D
btw: Is it difficult to be a ghost, to have never been able to touch a deck of cards? What a terrible feeling this has to be. Looking at you're beautiful skull decks, and still not be able to even feel them. :-[
Here's the complete "ghostly" image. It was taken at a bar near Times Square near Christmas a few years back.
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what did I say, he's not playing, because he can't hold the stick. He just passess through it... :D
Edit: Oops, he's holding a ball... :D
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what did I say, he's not playing, because he can't hold the stick. He just passess through it... :D
Edit: Oops, he's holding a ball... :D
Oy. You need help, my friend! :))
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I think you're a ghost man. Your profile just makes me feel like you're haunted... :D
btw: Is it difficult to be a ghost, to have never been able to touch a deck of cards? What a terrible feeling this has to be. Looking at you're beautiful skull decks, and still not be able to even feel them. :-[
Here's the complete "ghostly" image. It was taken at a bar near Times Square near Christmas a few years back.
Wait? That's an actual picture of you? :o All these times I have been on here I thought it was like from a movie or something :-[
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I think you're a ghost man. Your profile just makes me feel like you're haunted... :D
btw: Is it difficult to be a ghost, to have never been able to touch a deck of cards? What a terrible feeling this has to be. Looking at you're beautiful skull decks, and still not be able to even feel them. :-[
Here's the complete "ghostly" image. It was taken at a bar near Times Square near Christmas a few years back.
Wait? That's an actual picture of you? :o All these times I have been on here I thought it was like from a movie or something :-[
I remember that picture, you showed it's entirety a while back ago. :)
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So...if they dropped the Bicycle brand, does that mean they will bring back the bad ass art they started with?
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So...if they dropped the Bicycle brand, does that mean they will bring back the bad ass art they started with?
Probably not. They're still printing with the same company.
Here's the complete "ghostly" image. It was taken at a bar near Times Square near Christmas a few years back.
Wait? That's an actual picture of you? :o All these times I have been on here I thought it was like from a movie or something :-[
It's me, all right. The image is also on my FB fan page. It does look like something out of a movie, and you wouldn't be the first person who thought that, either... :)) The photo is between 5.5 and 7.5 years old, I estimate.