PlayingCardForum.com - A Discourse For Playing Cards
Playing Card Chat ♠ ♥ ♣ ♦ => Magical Cardistry Bonanza => Topic started by: hecrob on April 25, 2013, 03:54:17 AM
-
So we may be witnessing one the most evil plots to use YOUR money and fund an entire project or maybe one of the best projects ever...
Their reputation (at least for me) is of money grubbers... but i hope im wrong...
Im vocal about how i DONT support kickstarter projects, i feel those subtract value from "real" decks but thats a "talk" for another topic...
What i think they might be doing is funding their entire project, and investing nothing... and of course making a huge profit out of it.
Any thoughts?
-
So we may be witnessing one the most evil plots to use YOUR money and fund an entire project or maybe one of the best projects ever...
Their reputation (at least for me) is of money grubbers... but i hope im wrong...
Im vocal about how i DONT support kickstarter projects, i feel those subtract value from "real" decks but thats a "talk" for another topic...
What i think they might be doing is funding their entire project, and investing nothing... and of course making a huge profit out of it.
Any thoughts?
I saw this about two hours ago as well. First of all, we have absolutely no idea what it is. I will not try to guess because we'll find out in about 31 hours (as of this post) time. I do doubt though, and with I think very good reason, that this is not a deck project.
I think, although they are a small company in comparison to many businesses out there, they have plenty of money to fund any product related projects. I also think, from a business standpoint, they are just selling the products that people will buy, at a price that is high but still, people obviously are wiling to pay for it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not happy with their prices, just think our willingness to buy them feeds their decisions.
Using a Kickstarter is "questionable" to me because as I said, they have enough money for any product projects and I see Kickstarter as being synonymous with individuals or a small group doing something for the first time. Not an established playing card company. Only time will tell. And honestly, it's less than a day and a half. I can wait.
-
Any thoughts?
Trying to work out how it's "Evil"...
-
I can only feel excitement because you guys are right, they do have the money for most all of there endeavors. I hope this means that they are doing something beyond there reach, which could mean amazing things!
... I hope
-
To use what Don has stated, kickstarter is for the little guy to get off the ground. Dan and Dave are a company, are well know, and definitely have the money for this. kickstarter not needed.
-
True, but I don't believe that KS needs to be exclusively for the little guy. If it works, it's a benefit to all involved, including the consumer. eBay is great for the average Joe to sell things and make some money, but huge corporations use it too. If it benefits everyone involved, including me, all the better.
As for this D&D thing, I have it on my KS launch calendar (yes, in addition to searching a couple of times a day, I have reminders for known launches so that I can get on board in a hurry if early bird or exclusive/limited items are offered), so I will be there when it's live. It may be a huge bust for me, but as of now, my interest is definitely piqued!
-
True, but I don't believe that KS needs to be exclusively for the little guy. If it works, it's a benefit to all involved, including the consumer. eBay is great for the average Joe to sell things and make some money, but huge corporations use it too. If it benefits everyone involved, including me, all the better.
eBay wasn't created to launch companies - it was made to be a marketplace. Kickstarter isn't a marketplace. Dan and Dave Industries aren't exactly hurting for cash as far as I can tell.
Having said that...
Do you guys realize that most of the "big companies" we're talking about in the custom deck business consist of a dozen employees or less? We're not exactly talking about General Motors or Altria here... They have a designer or two, they have some website people, a few people to answer phones and deal with administration, and most of them contract out their distribution to a third party. As much as I hate to say it, they would easily qualify as the kind of small companies that Kickstarter was meant to create and support.
Let's wait and see what they have up their sleeves. If it's just another deck release, I'm gonna laugh pretty hard...
-
And that's what I was referring to in my post above. D&D aren't huge but they do have enough money to be self sufficient (or at least I'd like to believe so with just expensive products and decks that have a huge following). This is also why I doubt they are just pushing a Kickstarter for another product project.
If they are trying to expand, why not do it like all other companies and wait till they have the money then make the gamble in expansion and hope for the best? I see Kickstarter as for the little guy that just needs the boost and support to get their first or second idea out. Not that D&D doesn't need a boost in support, just feels like they don't.
-
And that's what I was referring to in my post above. D&D aren't huge but they do have enough money to be self sufficient (or at least I'd like to believe so with just expensive products and decks that have a huge following). This is also why I doubt they are just pushing a Kickstarter for another product project.
If they are trying to expand, why not do it like all other companies and wait till they have the money then make the gamble in expansion and hope for the best? I see Kickstarter as for the little guy that just needs the boost and support to get their first or second idea out. Not that D&D doesn't need a boost in support, just feels like they don't.
There's no way to know whether they need a boost or not until we see what's being offered - tomorrow morning.
-
Just as long as Walmart doesn't start doing projects on KS... :-)
-
KS is for start ups, not for people who already have funds.
This is pathetic.
-
As much as you might not like it, Kickstarter has also become a marketplace! There are plenty of projects on there for the sole purpose of having their products seen and purchased. Where else are you going to get a committed market of buyers who will give you money with only a promise of delivery? I shop on Kickstarter all the time, and typically I don't know if the person pitching is big or small and honestly i don't care. I just want some cool stuff, especially if it comes with extras. Even more so for limited releases. I purchased an art graphic novel book that will never be mass produced nor at Barnes and Nobel and I wouldn't have it unless the guys put it on kickstarter. Can they afford to produce it otherwise? Sure, they could sell it on Amazon, but they wouldn't get as big a following like they did on Kickstarter.
As for me, it's just me and my business partner starting out and our goal is to use Kickstarter to help us with a few new product lines. We typically publish books which we do quite well at and need neither funding nor Kickstarters, but to competitively do the same in gaming.... that's why I use Kickstarter. FYI - I only plan to release one more deck and then I'm done with playing cards (except for collecting them). I'm better at game cards.
-
KS is for start ups, not for people who already have funds.
This is pathetic.
:-\
I seriously doubt it's a deck that they are going to Kickstarter with. They said on Facebook earlier that they couldn't do this project without Kickstarters help. And I don't think it matters how big or small the operation is, Kickstarter is for everyone.
-
KS is for start ups, not for people who already have funds.
This is pathetic.
:-\
I seriously doubt it's a deck that they are going to Kickstarter with. They said on Facebook earlier that they couldn't do this project without Kickstarters help. And I don't think it matters how big or small the operation is, Kickstarter is for everyone.
I guess we will see. I assumed it's a deck because it was posted here. Their history is very much "here is a terrible or mediocre product for 2x the price" so I wouldn't be surprised if we saw something similar here.
-
I don't really agree with "Kickstarter is for little guys" when established individuals/companies have used Kickstarter before, so why can't Dan and Dave?
Penny Arcade already has two freaking conventions in its name but raised money basically just to have some extra funds.
Zach Weiner, writer of the successful webcomic Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal and already has a couple published collections of his comic, used Kickstarter for his latest book.
Even Double Fine, a video game company that's been around for at least ten years, had to use Kickstarter because publishers wouldn't buy into their new game because they believed the adventure genre was outdated.
-
I don't really agree with "Kickstarter is for little guys" when established individuals/companies have used Kickstarter before, so why can't Dan and Dave?
Penny Arcade already has two freaking conventions in its name but raised money basically just to have some extra funds.
Zach Weiner, writer of the successful webcomic Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal and already has a couple published collections of his comic, used Kickstarter for his latest book.
Even Double Fine, a video game company that's been around for at least ten years, had to use Kickstarter because publishers wouldn't buy into their new game because they believed the adventure genre was outdated.
In all those cases, you'll still talking about a small outfit. Cons aren't huge money makers (if they were, they wouldn't require volunteers) and their "comic" is free online. Self-published books are also a tough sell. These outfits aren't any larger than T11 or E - probably much smaller, and making less cash on it. For a game company, if no one wants to publish you, your avenues are rather limited - you can sell online, but how will people even know you exist and what do people live on in the interim, before the game hits the market? It's very cash-intensive.
-
Comparing indie game companies to card companies is like comparing homeless people to Mitt Romney.
A deck of cards will take a few months to make, often less with the bigger companies. A few hundred thousand dollars are made in profit.
Kickstarter wasn't "made" for anything, and indeed anyone can use it. However, when it's someone like D&D who have repeatedly milked the cash cow, I can't help but have a bitter taste in my mouth.
-
In all those cases, you'll still talking about a small outfit. Cons aren't huge money makers (if they were, they wouldn't require volunteers) and their "comic" is free online. Self-published books are also a tough sell. These outfits aren't any larger than T11 or E - probably much smaller, and making less cash on it. For a game company, if no one wants to publish you, your avenues are rather limited - you can sell online, but how will people even know you exist and what do people live on in the interim, before the game hits the market? It's very cash-intensive.
I use "established" in more of a branding/marketing sense instead of a financial sense, which I realize now was drifting away from the main point, which is my mistake. But the main point I was trying to make was that these are not start-up companies. My economics is fuzzy but doesn't start ups usually refer to new companies/individuals that are relying on investments to make a future product. Since the examples I listed have already been around for several years running their own businesses, they don't really fit that definition.
Now that the semantics are over I would like to elaborate specifically on Penny Arcade. I don't know how much money PAX makes, but it has to be somewhat profitable for it to continue growing as it has been the last few years. I believe Penny Arcade makes most of their revenue off of merchandising and advertising anyway (or at least they used to, not sure how it's different now), and their Kickstarter project allowed them to become self sustaining for at least a year meaning an ad free website so they could focus on more original content. I don't think a small outfit would have given up on any kind of ad revenue.
Comparing indie game companies to card companies is like comparing homeless people to Mitt Romney.
A deck of cards will take a few months to make, often less with the bigger companies. A few hundred thousand dollars are made in profit.
I'm afraid I don't understand this.....card companies are like Mitt Romney? Playing cards really make a few hundred thousand dollars? Your syntax confuses me.
-
Alex my man, lol 8), we both know if we were on the receiving end of D&D we wouldn't think anything of it. D&D have worked there butts off to make very successful company and brand. Yes they are on the top shelf when compared to some others but that is the nature of things. I for one have endured some comical moments over there $60+ nail clipper but... its D&D and they have earned the right to be that luxury brand. I don't see why there is even a debate over the matter of them going to Kickstarter.
-
Whatever gets the cool decks on my screen, and makes me want to fork over my hard-earned cash, works for me. As long as the site has no restrictions on it, I don't care who uses what.
In the end, people will vote for their wallets. If they want crap at 2X the realistic cost, good for them. I see people with jacked up trucks getting 3MPG every day. Not my taste but if that floats their boat, good for them. Buy what (or spend your money in a way that) makes you happy. If you overpay, but are happy, so what. Vote your opinion with your cash, and be happy.
I can's see the clock from the top of my soapbox...is it time yet?? Get ready to laugh, yell in disgust, or send your cash through "teh interwebs" (sic)!! :-)
-
A magic documentary. Interesting...
Not what I expected.
-
A magic documentary. Interesting...
Not what I expected.
Almost exactly what I was expecting actually. I know they've been filming for a while now and it was a matter of time this came out. I had my suspicions after finding out they were launching a Kickstarter project because many documentaries have been launched on Kickstarter before. I just thought they'd film and produce on their own budget.
Here's the link for those that want it: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dananddave/our-magic?
A goal of $43,000 and a few tiers. Some include: digital access to the film, a t-shirt, the actual DVD, Magic-Con tickets, etc.
-
I'm actually quite interested in this! I might go for the $65 tier because some new tricks and the documentary sounds good!
Plus with the lineup of interviewed people I'm interested just to hear what they have to say
I wasn't expecting this to be the project but I knew it wasn't a deck :)
-Benny
-
Somehow didn't notice this reading through the project page the first time around but here's the end note:
All tangible incentives, including Thank You cards, T-Shirts, Magic-Con registration, and DVDs will be produced by Dan and Dave Industries giving Our Magic 100% of the funded amount.
As I thought, they have the funds and resources to produce any product related items. They are just looking for the support and funds in producing their documentary.
-
I told you about Kickstarter... Now D&D is a small company :)
-
Honestly, they didn't need Kickstarter to do this. Even if they didn't have the funds, their loyal customers would have done the funding for them, no middleman taking a cut.
Having said that, the fact that this is a project meant to reach a broader audience than the usual band of card-floppers made using Kickstarter a smart move for broadened exposure - more specifically, exposure outside of the magic community.
I'm just interested in seeing if this thing will ever get a full-blown theatrical release. If it did, even for a brief time on a single screen somewhere in the US, it would be eligible for Oscar nomination. Michael Jackson's "Thriller" music video was released in a single California movie theater as a short subject before the movie Fantasia for one week in 1983 in order to become eligible - it didn't win any Oscars. I think the minimum release time has to be one week.
-
I don't see this project that bad. Other than those with mixed decisions about D&D using Kickstarter for funds, I don't find it that bad. For only $2, you get a signed card from the Producers, and for $25, you get that, access to their website, and a digital copy of the film. Seeing as standard movie sell now for $20, I think it's a nice idea. D&D's planning to use Kickstarter to, not only reach out to their magic friends, but also to others curious of the art. Interesting take in my opinion.
-
Completely dissapointed...
Also they don't need the kickstarted funding...
-
I am looking forward to the project, it's nice to see something different than a deck of cards from D&D. It doesn't really matter to me whether they went for a kickstarter or not as long as the finished product is done well. I guess it makes it feel more of a community project rather than just a D&D project by doing some fundraising.
-
On the use of KickStarter-
I'm guessing that producing a good quality film is a fairly high risk investment and having already released the unreal project for their fans, is it not safe to say that this is a genuine attempt to share some of the beauty of the craft with a wider audience?
Calling the documentary 'Our Magic' and using KickStarter is surely a fantastic way for the community to prove their support, in recognition of the value of the content. Weather or not it could have been privately funded has little bearing on my decision to support the project.
If you love and appreciate magic then you have probably always wanted others to get the chance to see just how wonderful it is. This isn't an easy task and I'm grateful for the twins' hard work, knowledge and access. Asking magicians for their support in this way seems completely appropriate in that this project should be a gift from magicians to the public rather than from the twins to their fans.
-
On the use of KickStarter-
I'm guessing that producing a good quality film is a fairly high risk investment and having already released the unreal project for their fans, is it not safe to say that this is a genuine attempt to share some of the beauty of the craft with a wider audience?
Calling the documentary 'Our Magic' and using KickStarter is surely a fantastic way for the community to prove their support, in recognition of the value of the content. Weather or not it could have been privately funded has little bearing on my decision to support the project.
If you love and appreciate magic then you have probably always wanted others to get the chance to see just how wonderful it is. This isn't an easy task and I'm grateful for the twins' hard work, knowledge and access. Asking magicians for their support in this way seems completely appropriate in that this project should be a gift from magicians to the public rather than from the twins to their fans.
Yeah and if you watched the video on the Kickstarter page (which sounds like you did), you get the feeling it's the community of magicians as a whole that presents this through the work of the twins putting it together. I still believe the use of Kickstarter might not be a necessity, but it is a good decision to get magicians that want this documentary made, and non-magicians who want to see this documentary to support the project.
It looks exciting and looks like it'll be good! I can't wait, that's for sure.
-
Ridiculous 3 days and a lot of blind people and they get funded -_-
Such a shame...
-
i think they are just trying to make more fans. the current playing card community is pretty angry with their releases with S&M. it's time to let go the old and angry fans and make new ones.
-
i think they are just trying to make more fans. the current playing card community is pretty angry with their releases with S&M. it's time to let go the old and angry fans and make new ones.
You and Hecrob are talking about this like it's a crappy new deck release. It's not.
It's not about old fans or new fans. It's a documentary that's meant to attract people from OUTSIDE of the community as well as inside. If they kept it on their own website and self-funded it (a costly proposition, but maybe they could afford it), it would end up interesting no one beyond the people who traffic their site, a narrow sliver of the potential audience. This way, they get people who are merely curious about magic, no nothing about magic but think it's cool (or kewl, depending on how old they are) are magic fanatics but never looked into being magicians and never saw the behind-the-scenes goings-on, etc.
-
This project is so powered by high roller fanboys.
The highest pledge tiers ($1,000, $2,500, $5,000 and $10,000) are currently responsible for more than 60% of their pledge total.
If it wasn't for those 8 extravagant backers, they wouldn't even have reached 20k by now.
-
This project is so powered by high roller fanboys.
The highest pledge tiers ($1,000, $2,500, $5,000 and $10,000) are currently responsible for more than 60% of their pledge total.
If it wasn't for those 8 extravagant backers, they wouldn't even have reached 20k by now.
How do you know that it was fanboys that pledged? Have you interviewed them? It could as easily have been magicians that want in on the project and (depending on the pledge level) will end up getting in the credits. This is a major event for the magic world.
You do get that this project isn't so much about the Twins as it is about magic as a trade and craft, right? It's a topic of interest to ALL magicians - and a healthy percentage of the non-magician population as well.
-
How do you know that it was fanboys that pledged? Have you interviewed them?
(http://s4.postimg.org/pb1ykq0ot/calm_down.jpg)
Chill, dude. I was just joking by that 'fanboy' thing.
At first I thought of responding to your post by saying I've sent out surveys to those people and they all told me they are indeed D&D fanboys, but that could be taken seriously and you would demand an explanation on how I managed to contact them, etc., so, never mind.
Still, I'm serious about the part where I mentioned 8 guys (whomever they may be, lol). If it wasn't for their lavish pledges, this project wouldn't be even 50% funded by now.
-
How do you know that it was fanboys that pledged? Have you interviewed them?
(http://s4.postimg.org/pb1ykq0ot/calm_down.jpg)
Chill, dude. I was just joking by that 'fanboy' thing.
At first I thought of responding to your post by saying I've sent out surveys to those people and they all told me they are indeed D&D fanboys, but that could be taken seriously and you would demand an explanation on how I managed to contact them, etc., so, never mind.
Still, I'm serious about the part where I mentioned 8 guys (whomever they may be, lol). If it wasn't for their lavish pledges, this project wouldn't be even 50% funded by now.
Yeah, true enough. But more projects than you may realize become successful because of a small number of people stepping up with significantly larger pledges.
-
Just saying that the topic's name should really be changed. In my opinion, it's not 'evil' in any aspects at all.
-
Actually, you have a very good point - and it's also in the wrong board. The Bonanza would be the appropriate place, come to think of it.
-
Completely dissapointed...
Also they don't need the kickstarted funding...
Do you know how much of a budget you need for a independently made feature length film/documentary? $43,000 is pretty modest on their behalf.
I'm pretty sure they would need funding bro...
-
i think they are just trying to make more fans. the current playing card community is pretty angry with their releases with S&M. it's time to let go the old and angry fans and make new ones.
You and Hecrob are talking about this like it's a crappy new deck release. It's not.
It's not about old fans or new fans. It's a documentary that's meant to attract people from OUTSIDE of the community as well as inside. If they kept it on their own website and self-funded it (a costly proposition, but maybe they could afford it), it would end up interesting no one beyond the people who traffic their site, a narrow sliver of the potential audience. This way, they get people who are merely curious about magic, no nothing about magic but think it's cool (or kewl, depending on how old they are) are magic fanatics but never looked into being magicians and never saw the behind-the-scenes goings-on, etc.
I didn't mean it in the crappy playing card release. Sorry if I pass the wrong message.
Magic is a small community. it's a very very niche market. The reason i say D&D are just trying to make more fans is to covert the non magic related people into magic related people. They are trying to get more people into the magic community. They are using this film as a medium to be the face of the magic community.
Why they doing it? because D&D are not really known as magicians.
Let's be honest. what is the first thing that comes to your mind when you go to their web site?
cards. flourishing moves. life style items. ...magic item..somewhere in the shadow area.
The easiest way to make money from newbies is to sell them the tools they think they need.
The very typical thing people think magician need is a deck of cards.
and what does D&D sell?...playing cards! cool playing cards.
They say it's a documentary film about magic. How I really see it is a film that is try to promote magic (which is a good thing). the down side is that it's going to be a bias film(just my opinion). Reason is that this is the best long length commercial to promote themselves! How could D&D and other magicians involved not take the advantage on this.
They are using kickstarter to reach a broader audience and using other people's money to make a long length documentary (self promote film). in the end they get more traffic and make more sales. I have to give them credit for this idea. it's so clever!
-
I didn't mean it in the crappy playing card release. Sorry if I pass the wrong message.
Magic is a small community. it's a very very niche market. The reason i say D&D are just trying to make more fans is to covert the non magic related people into magic related people. They are trying to get more people into the magic community. They are using this film as a medium to be the face of the magic community.
Why they doing it? because D&D are not really known as magicians.
Let's be honest. what is the first thing that comes to your mind when you go to their web site?
cards. flourishing moves. life style items. ...magic item..somewhere in the shadow area.
The easiest way to make money from newbies is to sell them the tools they think they need.
The very typical thing people think magician need is a deck of cards.
and what does D&D sell?...playing cards! cool playing cards.
They say it's a documentary film about magic. How I really see it is a film that is try to promote magic (which is a good thing). the down side is that it's going to be a bias film(just my opinion). Reason is that this is the best long length commercial to promote themselves! How could D&D and other magicians involved not take the advantage on this.
They are using kickstarter to reach a broader audience and using other people's money to make a long length documentary (self promote film). in the end they get more traffic and make more sales. I have to give them credit for this idea. it's so clever!
If you think the Bucks are just about flourishing, you really haven't dug into their website, have you? They've got one of the most extensive magic libraries on sale that I've seen anywhere.
The documentary is less about getting more people into the magic community, more about letting people see behind the scenes what magic is all about. It's not a self-promotional film - there will be many magicians on board for this project. And if you honestly think the movie will serve as a big advertisement for their playing cards - well, that's just plain nuts.
-
I felt like the Bucks were evil people when they tried to jack up the prices of Wynns back in the day and got caught...but that's a different story.
When I first saw this documentary, I actually got pretty excited. I think DB produce their own DVDs and what not so far? So you know the filming, editing, and all that is going to be great.