PlayingCardForum.com - A Discourse For Playing Cards
Playing Card Chat ♠ ♥ ♣ ♦ => Playing Card Plethora => Topic started by: ruicorreia on October 14, 2013, 07:11:15 AM
-
According to the photo posted today on FB, it seems that 4PM Designs has a new deck coming: the Legacy Deck, available in red and blue.
-
Well... I like the name. "legacy" ;)
I don't know about the design, I need to see more. JN red/blue?
I try to stay away from bicycle branded "custom" decks. D&D's New Fan Backs and Theory11 Bicycle Centurions are the exception to that rule. I own other Bicycle decks but they are actually produced by Bicycle/USPCC, not custom.
I think this will be a successful project for 4PM. It's not for me though.
-
Box looks nice. Not much else to comment on.
-
The tuck reminds me of the club 808 cigar deck
-
New pictures & info via Kickstarter Update.
We are excited to announce that coming November 29th/Black Friday is our newest deck(s)...
Bicycle® Legacy
Since 1885, the USPCC has printed their most popular and demanded brand of playing cards around the world, Bicycle. Although there has been many variations of their back designs, one has remained the most influential, the "rider back". The design has been color swapped, and modified to fit other themes, but overall the design has stayed the same. With keeping in the tradition of what makes the design great, we have worked with the USPCC to push what makes the rider back great and bring you a new design inspired by the original. A design which keeps the integrity of what we are familiar with, yet something new to add to its LEGACY. BICYCLE LEGACY is a TRUE set of unique poker cards. This means both decks have identical faces with 2 back color variations. Hand drawn courts, aces, and joker cards add to the decks appeal while a simplistic layout keeps the deck familiar. This makes LEGACY a great deck for performers of magic and cardistry, while bringing something fresh to your weekend poker games.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94/DKinKain/launchtitlebicycleNEW1_zps99576974.jpg)
This time around, we are doing something new for our Early Bird Backers. In the spirit of Black Friday Specials, we will have our own included on DAY ONE. But read carefully, both specials have time limits.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94/DKinKain/kickfridayspecials_zps11bd7a2a.jpg)
Hope to see you then!
- 4PM DESIGNS
I like what I see so far. The back design's a pretty cool tribute to the Riderback.
The ace and court card layout looks a bit Jackson Robinson-esque, no? I'm not complaining, though. They look great.
-
I like the backs, the angel wings look great. Not sold on the courts or Ace Spades, the border work seems a little much. Maybe they will grow on me, when I see the rest of them. Might have to pick up a couple just for the back design though.
But there are so many other potentially great decks coming out for the holidays, hmmm so many choices, so few Benjamins.
-
I like the backs, the angel wings look great. Not sold on the courts or Ace Spades, the border work seems a little much. Maybe they will grow on me, when I see the rest of them. Might have to pick up a couple just for the back design though.
But there are so many other potentially great decks coming out for the holidays, hmmm so many choices, so few Benjamins.
Ain't that the truth.
I figure the only way to keep myself from going insane is to splurge this season. I love 80% the decks that are coming out on KS in the next month. :P Bout time, seeing as we've had tons of crap recently.
-
I really, really like this deck. The back is gorgeous, the faces are traditional yet different, and there's peek-style tiny indices on the other corner from the standard indices. The style of the backs is very old-school. The court faces could do with a little more color, though.
-
I really, really like this deck. The back is gorgeous, the faces are traditional yet different, and there's peek-style tiny indices on the other corner from the standard indices. The style of the backs is very old-school. The court faces could do with a little more color, though.
I agree with you Don.
I liked the earlier decks, but this one just feels superior.
-
Will
probably overspend my budget this month...
Sherlock, Cthulhu, Zin+Mana, Legacy, Pagan...
-
Will probably overspend my budget this month...
Sherlock, Cthulhu, Zin+Mana, Legacy...
What? No love for Pagan? :)) Comes out today!
Seriously, though, the Legacy deck has a classic style to it - I'm reminded of when I saw the Hornets deck for the first time. It feels like it's a design that could easily be decades old - and I mean that in the best possible way! Damn, I wish I didn't need a new car...but hey, it's Christmas in 35 very short days!
-
Will probably overspend my budget this month...
Sherlock, Cthulhu, Zin+Mana, Legacy...
What? No love for Pagan? :)) Comes out today!
Seriously, though, the Legacy deck has a classic style to it - I'm reminded of when I saw the Hornets deck for the first time. It feels like it's a design that could easily be decades old - and I mean that in the best possible way! Damn, I wish I didn't need a new car...but hey, it's Christmas in 35 very short days!
Forgot about the Pagan. Added it in on my edit.
Guess I'll be asking which projects will be using Backerkit. That should free up some funds for Legacy and Pagan, since I don't think 4PM or Uusi will be using it.
-
Guess I'll be asking which projects will be using Backerkit. That should free up some funds for Legacy and Pagan, since I don't think 4PM or Uusi will be using it.
You should still keep your eyes out for limited edition widgets on those other projects - when those sell out, they tend not to be offered in Backerkit.
-
I always love getting more dice but could not spend that much to get them.
-
This has launched!
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/4pm/legacy-a-new-bicycle-playing-card-set-by-4pm-desig
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/346/755/83804b56e47df5653b5d733d8ad21229_large.jpg?1384822596)
CBJ
-
Thanks for the post Jason...Just got back from turkey feast...Damn I am still full
-
I'm just going to leave this here....
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1722808047/federal-52-a-new-bicycle-playing-card-deck/posts?page=11
The Kings of Spades look rather similar, at least to my eyes. Anyone else see it?
-
I'm just going to leave this here....
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1722808047/federal-52-a-new-bicycle-playing-card-deck/posts?page=11
The Kings of Spades look rather similar, at least to my eyes. Anyone else see it?
The styles are definitely similar. The detailed scroll work, the engraved style, etc.
But when you compare the king of spades side by side, they're not TOO similar.
(http://i.imgur.com/WGZhEOQ.png)
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/projects/470340/posts/441354/image-233054-full.jpg?1364664206)
-
Really like the back. I can tell you gave it very carful thought. The secret code is Text "5 of Hearts"
-
I'm just going to leave this here....
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1722808047/federal-52-a-new-bicycle-playing-card-deck/posts?page=11
The Kings of Spades look rather similar, at least to my eyes. Anyone else see it?
The styles are definitely similar. The detailed scroll work, the engraved style, etc.
But when you compare the king of spades side by side, they're not TOO similar.
They're really only similar in the way that most cards based on the Anglo-American standard are similar. And the shield behind the spade. And there's that frame-like thing behind the kings. But there's also enough differences that you'd never confuse them for each other unless you were half-asleep and in a big hurry. Jackson's king has a HUGE head compared to the Legacy king, as well as a name banner and a compass across his waist. The Legacy king's head seems more vertical while Jackson's (due to the flowing hair) seems slanted diagonally.
-
4PM just came out with an update notifying backers that they will cancel the project. :(
-
That's just stupid. They're at over 13k with over 3 weeks to go. In those 3 weeks they need to hit less than 2K ???
It makes no sense to cancel it.
-
"As the Legacy struggles forward we have been considering different options for this project and our next. We have gotten plenty of good reactions to the decks and had big plans to continue the Legacy series as long as there was a demand for it. However, it doesn't seem that time is now. Before we go further, no we are not abandoning the Legacy decks. We love our Legacy decks and do plan to release it. We hoped to raise enough to have all the bells and whistles put on the decks but at the rate funding is going, and the costs of producing a minimum of 5,000 decks (2,500/2,500 each color), it makes things difficult... Instead of blatantly canceling then relaunching the project, we are presenting supporters of the 4PM brand some options"
"1. Realizing that a two deck set for the Legacy was a push, we can relaunch with a single deck. Same faces, but the back and tuck may be recolored to fit a single deck release. More than likely a merger of both blue and red.
2. Prepare to launch our secondary deck and hold Legacy for a follow up release later. This new deck is somewhat of an addition to our intended Mythos series, but not following lovecraft stories. Instead it's inspired by a well know series of stories that we are currently writing a short story companion to (currently awaiting USPCC legal approval)."
Looks like people are leaning towards a single Legacy hybrid deck.
-
I suspect that they might have underestimated the costs involved in making two decks. $7,500 per deck is really shaving it thin. He should simply stick with the current two-deck plan but make the second deck a stretch goal, should they decide to relaunch.
-
I suspect that they might have underestimated the costs involved in making two decks. $7,500 per deck is really shaving it thin. He should simply stick with the current two-deck plan but make the second deck a stretch goal, should they decide to relaunch.
Hey guys, the funds are definite cutting it close, but we are ok with that because we always have reserve funds to cover any issues. It's less about the funding and more about relaunching to focus on one deck. We would rather release a single strong deck than two decks that may linger.
-
I suspect that they might have underestimated the costs involved in making two decks. $7,500 per deck is really shaving it thin. He should simply stick with the current two-deck plan but make the second deck a stretch goal, should they decide to relaunch.
Hey guys, the funds are definite cutting it close, but we are ok with that because we always have reserve funds to cover any issues. It's less about the funding and more about relaunching to focus on one deck. We would rather release a single strong deck than two decks that may linger.
What are you talking about, lingering? You're very close to your goal and you have an attractive deck pair. I think a bit more promoting is all you really need. Try offering a special - increase your pledge by two more decks and get this fabulous and unique widget not available anywhere else ever, that sort of thing. Dangle new stretch goals in people's faces. Do an interview with someone in the "card press", like Kardify or Tuckcase. Do something to a) stoke the fires under your present backers and b) ignite some fires under any potential backers.
-
I suspect that they might have underestimated the costs involved in making two decks. $7,500 per deck is really shaving it thin. He should simply stick with the current two-deck plan but make the second deck a stretch goal, should they decide to relaunch.
Hey guys, the funds are definite cutting it close, but we are ok with that because we always have reserve funds to cover any issues. It's less about the funding and more about relaunching to focus on one deck. We would rather release a single strong deck than two decks that may linger.
What are you talking about, lingering? You're very close to your goal and you have an attractive deck pair. I think a bit more promoting is all you really need. Try offering a special - increase your pledge by two more decks and get this fabulous and unique widget not available anywhere else ever, that sort of thing. Dangle new stretch goals in people's faces. Do an interview with someone in the "card press", like Kardify or Tuckcase. Do something to a) stoke the fires under your present backers and b) ignite some fires under any potential backers.
I agree with Don. How many other designers would like to be 90% funded with 3 weeks left in the project. I don't like being negative, but I don't think I would back a relaunch.
-
I'm with Don and Rob.
I also think a hybrid deck just doesn't work with this theme, it's an homage to the classic rider backs which is red and blue. Nothing else would work as well.
-
I agree, there is absolutely zero reason for a relaunch and I'm not sure I would back it either. Cancelling a project will only hurt your reputation. I also agree that a lot of creators would love to be in your position. Also kind of makes me worry that you want to cancel a project at this stage!
-
4PM posted an explanation in one of their updates:
"I guess we're going to have to describe the situation number by number so people can get an idea of what we're doing and why...
When we designed this deck we planned to have several features added on as the campaign progressed. The way it is right now, is not at the potential the deck could be made and we made the mistake of setting the goal at the barebones. Yes, hitting the goal will get the deck made, but the final product could be better than was initially intended at launch. Right now the deck is standard tuck with minimal embossing, solid color printing inside, and no seal (or a plain black seal). The extra features could enhance the decks so we knew that product would be the best to release. Since, overfunding would be required to add these features, and it's risky at the pace it's going, it's better to relaunch.
These are approx. numbers so you have a better idea:
- 2,500 decks at approx. $2.76 each is $6,900, so 5,000 (2,500/2,500) is $13,800 (enough for our goal and shipping) so with bare additions like we have the numbers increases slightly but we still manage.
- Adding on features we would like including specialty inks on decks and tuck is approx. $.20, custom seal approx. $.20, and possible tuck texturing (like Madison Rounders/Dealers which strengthens the tucks which we are seeing prototypes for) approx. $.15. So now that approx. $2.76 deck is $3.31 bringing the projected total at $16,550 (remember these are approx. the USPCC is known to change costs up until the decks are going into print). Add on extra for shipping and dice/coin etc. costs and it gets costly.
However, if we focus on one deck, a $15,000 goal is easily reasonable and we get everything to make the deck even better."
-
I agree, there is absolutely zero reason for a relaunch and I'm not sure I would back it either. Cancelling a project will only hurt your reputation. I also agree that a lot of creators would love to be in your position. Also kind of makes me worry that you want to cancel a project at this stage!
I'd have to disagree on this, after hearing the game plan involved. There was a little miscalculating in terms of getting in all the desired features, and it makes sense in this case to make a better deck and offer the second one as a stretch goal instead of making two stripped-down decks and trying to build up the features in stretch goals that may never be met.
-
If they pull this and relaunch, I will not be back. Now isn't the time to be thinking about these things, that should have been done before the project started. i would love to pull my pledge now, but I made a committment, and I will see that through to their cancellation. i will honor my pledge even if the creator doesn't honor theirs, but I won't make that mistake twice with the same creator, and I would give their decision to cancel great weight when in consideration to back their future projects. If you have great KS experiece, then you have even less excuse. *rant mode off*
-
When we designed this deck we planned to have several features added on as the campaign progressed
In other words, the creators set the goal on kickstarter to an amount where they would not actually want to go on with the project. That's really, really crummy, and I expect I'll steer clear of any kickstarter started by "4PM Designs" for this reason. There's really no point in contributing to a kickstarter campaign if the people running it aren't going to put in an honest, realistic goal, which this obviously wasn't.
-
4PM says in the KS comments:
"..you can't simply order whatever number you want, that's not how the USPCC works. You either order 2,500, or 5,000. Unless something has changed in the last year or so, that's how it's always been. 2,500, 5,000, 7,500, 10,000, 15,000."
In other words, if you want to order 3000 decks, which is above the 2500 "minimum", USPCC won't let you... you have to order 5000???
This doesn't jive with what i've heard from other creators discussing their final print runs for their projects... but then i've never been through the process myself so i guess i don't really know.
Is this true?
-
4PM says in the KS comments:
"..you can't simply order whatever number you want, that's not how the USPCC works. You either order 2,500, or 5,000. Unless something has changed in the last year or so, that's how it's always been. 2,500, 5,000, 7,500, 10,000, 15,000."
In other words, if you want to order 3000 decks, which is above the 2500 "minimum", USPCC won't let you... you have to order 5000???
This doesn't jive with what i've heard from other creators discussing their final print runs for their projects... but then i've never been through the process myself so i guess i don't really know.
Is this true?
I don't think this sounds plausible either, but you never know with USPCC. It wouldn't surprise me, but hopefully someone who knows can supply us with a definite answer.
-
Randy, Paul, Jackson... do any of you have any insight here for the benefit of us non-creators? i know that this has been briefly discussed in the past, but I wonder if anything has changed recently.
This creator has a very unique and interesting dilemma, and is in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" type of situation. This project will be an interesting study when all is said and done.
-
From my understanding. You can order 2500+ for any 1 design. He has 2 colors/designs = 5000 (2500 each) minimum.
-
4PM says in the KS comments:
"..you can't simply order whatever number you want, that's not how the USPCC works. You either order 2,500, or 5,000. Unless something has changed in the last year or so, that's how it's always been. 2,500, 5,000, 7,500, 10,000, 15,000."
In other words, if you want to order 3000 decks, which is above the 2500 "minimum", USPCC won't let you... you have to order 5000???
This doesn't jive with what i've heard from other creators discussing their final print runs for their projects... but then i've never been through the process myself so i guess i don't really know.
Is this true?
Now that's as legit as a three-dollar bill. I've never seen anyone have to order in blocks of 2,500. The discount tiers may be in such groupings, but as long as you meet the minimum, you can order any amount you wish - while recognizing that there's a 10% over/under clause, so something like an order of 3,000 can end up being between 3,300 and 2,700, with you paying for every deck that's actually printed. Is it possible he simply misunderstood something? And of course, each deck color is considered a separate order, with a separate minimum.
-
I agree, there is absolutely zero reason for a relaunch and I'm not sure I would back it either. Cancelling a project will only hurt your reputation. I also agree that a lot of creators would love to be in your position. Also kind of makes me worry that you want to cancel a project at this stage!
I'd have to disagree on this, after hearing the game plan involved. There was a little miscalculating in terms of getting in all the desired features, and it makes sense in this case to make a better deck and offer the second one as a stretch goal instead of making two stripped-down decks and trying to build up the features in stretch goals that may never be met.
I can't see that he miscalculated anything. This is his fourth project. The other 3 projects did over 40k each. The way I see it. He stripped the decks down thinking he would get the same funding as the others, then add all the bells and whistles.
Here is part of the original update about canceling.
As the Legacy struggles forward we have been considering different options for this project and our next. We have gotten plenty of good reactions to the decks and had big plans to continue the Legacy series as long as there was a demand for it. However, it doesn't seem that time is now. Before we go further, no we are not abandoning the Legacy decks. We love our Legacy decks and do plan to release it.
At over 90% funded with well over 2 weeks left. He was betting on overfunding, and realized it wasn't going to happen. To put in in card terms. he tried to bluff, and got called.
-
I agree, there is absolutely zero reason for a relaunch and I'm not sure I would back it either. Cancelling a project will only hurt your reputation. I also agree that a lot of creators would love to be in your position. Also kind of makes me worry that you want to cancel a project at this stage!
I'd have to disagree on this, after hearing the game plan involved. There was a little miscalculating in terms of getting in all the desired features, and it makes sense in this case to make a better deck and offer the second one as a stretch goal instead of making two stripped-down decks and trying to build up the features in stretch goals that may never be met.
I can't see that he miscalculated anything. This is his fourth project. The other 3 projects did over 40k each. The way I see it. He stripped the decks down thinking he would get the same funding as the others, then add all the bells and whistles.
Here is part od the original update about canceling.
As the Legacy struggles forward we have been considering different options for this project and our next. We have gotten plenty of good reactions to the decks and had big plans to continue the Legacy series as long as there was a demand for it. However, it doesn't seem that time is now. Before we go further, no we are not abandoning the Legacy decks. We love our Legacy decks and do plan to release it.
At over 90% funded with well over 2 weeks left. He was betting on overfunding, and realized it wasn't going to happen. To put in in card terms. he tried to bluff, and got called.
Exactly right, Rob. This is a classic case of overconfidence that came back to bite them in the ass. I guess you could say they were spoiled by their previous successes, and made the fallacy of predicting the popularity of a brand new deck based on their previous (unrelated) work.
Personally, I'd rather see something like adding $1 on to the price of every deck to get to where they can add at least some of the stuff they were planning on adding. I'd definitely pay slightly more to get a better product if that's what it would take. Obviously taking a poll on it first, of course, as it might just be me who'd be okay with that.
-
This is a comment I left on the project a little bit ago.
Robert Wright 13 minutes ago
Pablo, you are correct. A lot of us are very passionate about cards in general. I know you are as well. I can't imagine how you are feeling about all of this. It must be disheartening. A lot of us have been very negative, including myself, of your possible decision to cancel and re-launch. Unfortunately the funding on this project has pretty much stopped because of the negativity. A re-launch may be the only option now. If you stay the course with it as is, I'm committed to stay. Lets all try to turn it positive here. After all we backed this project because of the design, and 4pm's good tract record. Either way you go Pablo, I say good luck.
Why would I leave this comment, after the rant I laid above. Many reasons. No matter how I feel about him canceling, I try to believe the best in people. He wants to put out the best product he can. I just wish he had done that to begin with. On the forum we can all rant or be negative with little or no impact to the project. Being negative on the project can start a wild fire. A little negativity can kill a project. Pablo has a good reputation on KS, and that all could be ruined by what has happened. Maybe there is a little lesson here. Don't compromise. Design it the way you want to begin with.
-
Maybe there is a little lesson here. Don't compromise.
There was no compromise. A compromise would have been: "We really, really want all the extra bells and whistles, but if people don't give us enough money, I guess we'll eat our pride and make the decks bare-bones because that's what we're funded for". In fact, I think that's the whole point of the stretch goal system. You wish you could build your products to the best specs with all the extra features, but if you can't get there, you still want to get it to market in its basic version.
Needless to say, this is exactly what 4PM didn't do. They were not willing to compromise, even though they set their kickstarter up to appear as if they were. The lesson is actually "Don't fib about how much funding you really want, because you might only get your lower figure and have to do it that way".
-
The more general lesson, which any business owner could and should take from this, is "Prepare for any outcome, and don't count on predictions and speculations being accurate".
-
Well, i think that 4PM Designs overcalculated the demand on this Legacy Deck.
The main reason behind canceling seems to me, and i could be wrong of course but, that they want to milk the design of the deck to its maximum.
Now with the current pledges this is not gonna happen.
The deck is produced to make money Period.
In the end they might end up with a pretty standard deck in terms of features (no embossing,foil and so on) - barely broke even after the KS Project and sitting on 3000+ decks which will not sell good (since its "standard").
The result would be a failure from a business point of view.
So ask yourself : Would you go through this hassle with that outcome?
I doubt it. So 4PM get´s panic...and would rather relaunch instead of sacrificing the design for a low ca$h output.
-
I think the way I see it, it is more than just the bells and whistles, it's also about a profit. Since they can't make a profit they would rather relaunch with all the bells and whistles to get that profit. Could it be they are just getting greedy?
Just reminds me of the Army Men deck. There was no reason for it not to be made except that Adam wasn't going to profit from it.
-
I think the way I see it, it is more than just the bells and whistles, it's also about a profit. Since they can't make a profit they would rather relaunch with all the bells and whistles to get that profit. Could it be they are just getting greedy?
Just reminds me of the Army Men deck. There was no reason for it not to be made except that Adam wasn't going to profit from it.
That's pretty much the point of any business, Victor. If you aren't making a profit, you might as well be a charity. If you'd like to make unprofitable decks out of your own pocket, by all means, don't let us stop you...
Army Men crashed for a variety of reasons, not the least of which being monetary mismanagement, but even if he went forward at a loss, he still had that pesky intellectual property issue to deal with - so no, there WAS a reason for it not to be made.
Getting greedy? Get a clue.
-
As far as I can tell Adam DID get that trademark issue resolved and the deck was a go.
And you are right, every business wants to make a profit and i'm sure 4PM has made some good profits off their previous decks and i'm sure they might make a little profit on this deck. Either way they made a commitment when they launched the campaign and profit or not they should fulfill it.
-
As far as I can tell Adam DID get that trademark issue resolved and the deck was a go.
And you are right, every business wants to make a profit and i'm sure 4PM has made some good profits off their previous decks and i'm sure they might make a little profit on this deck. Either way they made a commitment when they launched the campaign and profit or not they should fulfill it.
There's no commitment until the project is a done deal, fully funded. The Legacy deck wasn't. The campaign is in essence a promise to commit when the funding is in place - no funding, no obligation.
The trademark issue was resolved by an agreement that he had to made multiple changes to the design, which he abandoned when he realized the money to do it ran out, due to some mismanagement and an increase in shipping and printing costs that occurred while he was waiting to get his deck out of legal limbo. He writes about it in the next-to-last project update, where he announces the project is kaput and that he's issuing refunds. So "as far as I can tell", you didn't read this.
And if you still think that a business should still deliver on a product they haven't even committed to yet, knowing they're going to lose money in the process, you're no businessman. I sometimes wonder what it's like to view the world with such a childlike vision, as if wearing rose-colored glasses...
-
As far as I can tell Adam DID get that trademark issue resolved and the deck was a go.
And you are right, every business wants to make a profit and i'm sure 4PM has made some good profits off their previous decks and i'm sure they might make a little profit on this deck. Either way they made a commitment when they launched the campaign and profit or not they should fulfill it.
There's no commitment until the project is a done deal, fully funded. The Legacy deck wasn't. The campaign is in essence a promise to commit when the funding is in place - no funding, no obligation.
The trademark issue was resolved by an agreement that he had to made multiple changes to the design, which he abandoned when he realized the money to do it ran out, due to some mismanagement and an increase in shipping and printing costs that occurred while he was waiting to get his deck out of legal limbo. He writes about it in the next-to-last project update, where he announces the project is kaput and that he's issuing refunds. So "as far as I can tell", you didn't read this.
And if you still think that a business should still deliver on a product they haven't even committed to yet, knowing they're going to lose money in the process, you're no businessman. I sometimes wonder what it's like to view the world with such a childlike vision, as if wearing rose-colored glasses...
He's not in a money losing position. In fact he made over $120,000 with his previous 3 decks, don't tell me there wasn't a quite a bit of profit in those, possibly enough to offset any loses he might have on these if he decides to emboss the boxes more like he wants to. And nobody is asking him to do that. Everyone pledged for the decks as is, why is he so afraid of just printing them as is? I'm sure he will still make some profit off the decks as is, perhaps more than he might if he abandons it and relaunches which could result in a failed campaign altogether.
I never said I was a businessman and I never said I don't make mistakes, I just have a different way of looking at things, doesn't make me childlike.
-
He's not in a money losing position. In fact he made over $120,000 with his previous 3 decks, don't tell me there wasn't a quite a bit of profit in those, possibly enough to offset any loses he might have on these if he decides to emboss the boxes more like he wants to. And nobody is asking him to do that. Everyone pledged for the decks as is, why is he so afraid of just printing them as is? I'm sure he will still make some profit off the decks as is, perhaps more than he might if he abandons it and relaunches which could result in a failed campaign altogether.
I never said I was a businessman and I never said I don't make mistakes, I just have a different way of looking at things, doesn't make me childlike.
It's not a matter of simply making money off of the deck - if that was the case, he could have continued as he was and the deck would likely have funded, just as you stated. From the looks of things based on what he said, he had a grander design in mind - a BETTER deck than the one that was being offered. He made a bit of a tactical error in assuming that he'd fund it all through stretch goals and achieve the level he wants the design to be in the end. Rather than continue this project as-is, squeaking by with a decent-looking deck project in two colors and aiming for the bells and whistles with stretch goals he feels he won't achieve, he's decided he wants those bells and whistles and is canceling this deck to relaunch with a new project where the bells and whistles come first and the second deck becomes the stretch goal. It's a wiser move, to be honest - funding two decks off the bat is a daunting challenge, and it still kills me that a gorgeous deck like SiShou - Four Beasts didn't reach its funding goal because of it when so many lousier decks manage to get funded.
As far as profit - what do you think happens to the money made from previous projects? Sure, some may be kept in a company fund, but certainly not ALL of it! You're basically saying that it's not profit motive that should be the main reason for the company continuing to make decks, which completely neglects the fact that if there was no profit to be made, NO DECK PROJECTS would be made, ANYWHERE. Of that $120,000, the lion's share went toward getting the project done and out the door. What happened to the rest, well - that's up to him! I don't tell you how to spend your paycheck, so what gives you the right to tell him how to spend his? How about I insist that YOU make up the difference for the extras he wants in the deck - sound good to you? Of course not, and it's ludicrous to ask.
Unless the company's a non-profit or not-for-profit, no company goes into business to make projects that they know will lose money, period, regardless of how much funding they may or may not have in the "war chest" to make up the difference. Even a company that donates goods, services or cash to a charity has a monetary incentive for doing so in the form of tax write-offs. (Oh, wait, there is ONE type of company that goes into business to lose money - a front company for a money laundering operation! And in the end, they STILL manage to make money...)
Look, if you don't want to fund the improved deck, so be it. Somehow, I don't think he'll miss your pledge, since there will be enough people interested in seeing a better version of this to replace any lost funds from folks like you and then some. But before you start telling someone how their projects should be made, even if it loses money, perhaps you should run one of your own - and not some Etsy deck, but a real playing card deck project run on Kickstarter and printed by USPC or better. Maybe then I'll take what you have to say about it seriously. To say "I just have a different way of looking at things" is an understatement, indeed.
-
Somehow, I don't think he'll miss your pledge, since there will be enough people interested in seeing a better version of this to replace any lost funds from folks like you and then some.
You wouldn't think so judging by many of the comments in this thread. And don't forget that many people have a set quantity they buy decks in, which would effectively get halved when only one deck is offered instead of two.
Anyway, it doesn't matter since according to the last update it will relaunch with both decks right off the bat, with updated shipping and single deck pledge levels.
-
Somehow, I don't think he'll miss your pledge, since there will be enough people interested in seeing a better version of this to replace any lost funds from folks like you and then some.
You wouldn't think so judging by many of the comments in this thread. And don't forget that many people have a set quantity they buy decks in, which would effectively get halved when only one deck is offered instead of two.
Anyway, it doesn't matter since according to the last update it will relaunch with both decks right off the bat, with updated shipping and single deck pledge levels.
Thanks for that update.
You're judging the demand based solely on who's commenting in this topic. I'm judging it by not just the collecting community as a whole, but the Kickstarter community as a whole as well. The best, most successful decks found mass appeal, going beyond the card collector market in a big way. It's the old "build a better mousetrap" idea - make the deck better, more people will be interested in it, assuming a open market with a level playing field.
-
I'm currently backing 10 or so KS decks that haven't shipped yet. If they are hit with the new USPS rates like 4PM was anticipating being hit, they may be in trouble.
-
I'm currently backing 10 or so KS decks that haven't shipped yet. If they are hit with the new USPS rates like 4PM was anticipating being hit, they may be in trouble.
Shipping is such a big % of these projects, that an increase in deck price of $.10-$.20 really isn't a a big needle mover on the cost side.
As for stopping this campaign, it looks like the creator made an "underfund" goal as we call it in the KS biz. A goal that isn't enough to do what you want. Folks do them (all the time on the game side) on the belief that once you hit your goal, pledges pile on as stretch-goals are pretty exciting and attention grabbing. Folks like to back a winner. It's a dangerous way to do things, but business is risky.
Folks also keep forgetting with all their calculations on this forum, that KS projects have life after KS and that inventory has value. This creator might be worried about post KS sales if the deck isn't made at a more premium level.
-
I'm currently backing 10 or so KS decks that haven't shipped yet. If they are hit with the new USPS rates like 4PM was anticipating being hit, they may be in trouble.
Shipping is such a big % of these projects, that an increase in deck price of $.10-$.20 really isn't a a big needle mover on the cost side.
As for stopping this campaign, it looks like the creator made an "underfund" goal as we call it in the KS biz. A goal that isn't enough to do what you want. Folks do them (all the time on the game side) on the belief that once you hit your goal, pledges pile on as stretch-goals are pretty exciting and attention grabbing. Folks like to back a winner. It's a dangerous way to do things, but business is risky.
Folks also keep forgetting with all their calculations on this forum, that KS projects have life after KS and that inventory has value. This creator might be worried about post KS sales if the deck isn't made at a more premium level.
There's been more than a few deck project that, intentionally or otherwise, went for an underfund and made the goal without actually making enough to cover the costs. Needless to say, we added them to the list of Kickstarter successful failures, decks that funded and were never produced. In most cases, it's a case of fraud and the deck never shows up, with the creator absconding with the cash. Sometimes, when you're lucky, the creator does indeed offer refunds, but this method is few and far between.
Yes, by making the Legacy deck a premium deck with the second deck as a stretch goal, the deck's likely to have a better resale value when the project ends and the rewards have shipped.
-
Exactly. While some projects go through the roof and can absorb some extra shipping costs (if they are small), most projects don't grab that much profit. 4PM thought it critical enough to use it as a critical reason to cancel the project. 20 cents on a deck isn't much, but bricks, uncuts, extras like poker sets, et cetera, would jack the cost in a hurry. Since most KS creators aren't saavy businesspersons, many are already on thin margins. Quite a few projects were emblazoned in controversy because the had money to print, but ran out before, or during, shipping. I can think of close to a dozen like this in the past couple of years alone.
-
Exactly. While some projects go through the roof and can absorb some extra shipping costs (if they are small), most projects don't grab that much profit. 4PM thought it critical enough to use it as a critical reason to cancel the project. 20 cents on a deck isn't much, but bricks, uncuts, extras like poker sets, et cetera, would jack the cost in a hurry. Since most KS creators aren't saavy businesspersons, many are already on thin margins. Quite a few projects were emblazoned in controversy because the had money to print, but ran out before, or during, shipping. I can think of close to a dozen like this in the past couple of years alone.
Good point on the other "non-card" stuff too. I don't know what minimums are on things like chips, but T-shirts are almost zero margin on KS for most people.
-
I completely understand what 4PM is doing here and I feel that most of the arguments and statements are quite valid.
The only thing for me is that this shows one of the huge flaws in kickstarter. There is very little investment in it for the creators. Now I am not saying this is true for everyone as some companies (not typically on the playing card side) have already spent a budget on design and prototypes. But usually for the playing card market all that is at risk for the creator is the time they spent designing, which I am sure is considered valuable to them, However should not have a monetary value unless they are doing the design of the deck as their job. (i.e. as their source of income and not in their spare time, as many designers do). In fact for many decks it is coming down to the creator only coming up with a concept and only putting the minimal amount of work into it before the campaign and then working on it while the campaign is active and much more so once the campaign is funded.
In my eyes there should be more risk for the creator. As it is now the major risk goes to the buyer and for the most part none to the creator. this is why the number of fraud and failed successes is so high. Because creators don't risk, so if they see a chance that they will have to spend their own money at some point, they see this as taking a loss and not like investing in their project. As Lukeout said (or maybe only implied) it is the inventory after the completion of the kickstarter orders that should help on the profit.
Now I know someone will try to bring up the creator and investor example. And say the person who pledges is an investor and therefore takes that large risk on themselves as in a business scenario. With investors a creator gets rid of a portion of their risk (notice I didn't say all). However this scenario does not work for kickstarter. The people who pledge are not truthfully investors. We are pre-sales to help a project get finished. If we were investors we would expect to see some of the profits from the excess stock that is sold (like maybe a penny or two on each of the $50 decks Jackson sells).
Creators obviously can do what they like. And 4PM backing out of this project now in hopes they can run a more successful campaign next time is certainly a legitimate strategy. Many creators have done it and come up with many more pledges the next time and I hope that is what happens here as I do like these decks. But in the end the reason this happened is because they don't want to invest too much in their own project while still creating the best deck that they can that will be the most attractive on resales.
-
I agree that backers are not investors. I often say that backers take "investor risks without investor payout potential." Not so much for cancelled projects as there is little harm done to backers other than dashed hopes, but for projects that are funded and the creator goes AWOL.
Eventually, reputation will matter and we'll all get smarter. I can't imagine 4pm launching another deck project like this one with the same goal as no one will believe them. I know it feels like KS has been around for ever, but I still think the entire process is still having growing pains. I just wish folks wouldn't set underfund goals unless they are willing to take the risk all the way. On the game side, I've seen $50K goals for products that I KNOW need to raise at least $300K to make, but those creators are committed to putting the rest of the money in themselves if they have to.
-
These have now re-launched!!!
Here's the link
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/4pm/legacy-bicycle-playing-cards-by-4pm-designs
-
Love the deck but I doubt it will make 30k
It didn't even make 15k on the last one how would this possibly make 30?
I still feel he should of released one color first then after hitting a stretch goal release the second.
-
Love the deck but I doubt it will make 30k
It didn't even make 15k on the last one how would this possibly make 30?
I still feel he should of released one color first then after hitting a stretch goal release the second.
I'm in agreement with the last sentence, but there's actually a solid chance he'll make the goal. By campaign's end, he was spitting distance from funded when he first offered this deck.
-
Love the deck but I doubt it will make 30k
It didn't even make 15k on the last one how would this possibly make 30?
I still feel he should of released one color first then after hitting a stretch goal release the second.
I'm in agreement with the last sentence, but there's actually a solid chance he'll make the goal. By campaign's end, he was spitting distance from funded when he first offered this deck.
Yes, he was in spitting distance of 15K. How does that mean he will make 30K? I, for one, am no longer pledging and I'm sure he's lost others, purely because of the last cancellation.
-
Love the deck but I doubt it will make 30k
It didn't even make 15k on the last one how would this possibly make 30?
I still feel he should of released one color first then after hitting a stretch goal release the second.
I'm in agreement with the last sentence, but there's actually a solid chance he'll make the goal. By campaign's end, he was spitting distance from funded when he first offered this deck.
Yes, he was in spitting distance of 15K. How does that mean he will make 30K? I, for one, am no longer pledging and I'm sure he's lost others, purely because of the last cancellation.
I actually think he might make the goal as well. But for the "improvements" he made, to actually require him to double his funding goal seems a little bit more on a greed side rather than "improvement" side to me.
-
With so many decks around (Kickstarter, E, T11, CARC...) the buyers are very dispersed, so the goal seems too ambicious.
-
I am among those who won't be renewing my pledge. He re-opened this one in the middle of the working day, at a time I couldn't be checking in, I missed the early bird specials that I had managed to make last time, and I'm just... out of steam on this one. I still like the idea, but other back-to-basics decks are calling louder to me, now, and for the extra few bucks, I'm just not as taken with this one any longer.
-
Love the deck but I doubt it will make 30k
It didn't even make 15k on the last one how would this possibly make 30?
I still feel he should of released one color first then after hitting a stretch goal release the second.
I'm in agreement with the last sentence, but there's actually a solid chance he'll make the goal. By campaign's end, he was spitting distance from funded when he first offered this deck.
Yes, he was in spitting distance of 15K. How does that mean he will make 30K? I, for one, am no longer pledging and I'm sure he's lost others, purely because of the last cancellation.
I never indicated it was a sure thing, just that he has a solid chance. In two days he's already 25% of the way to the goal, with 43 days remaining.
-
I didn't renew my pledge too since I missed out on the early birds. I starred it for now. He also mentioned earlier in the previous campaign updates that they would carry on the early bird seals and dice but made no mention of it during the relaunch. I went for the SIGNED & NUMBERED (DECK EDITION) before but with Requiem and Origins out, I think I'd just go for 1 red and 1 blue for this round.
-
I didn't renew my pledge too since I missed out on the early birds. I starred it for now. He also mentioned earlier in the previous campaign updates that they would carry on the early bird seals and dice but made no mention of it during the relaunch.
Yeah, I didn't renew mine, either. I was wondering if the early bird seals would still be carried over, because like you said, it wasn't mentioned during the relaunch. I managed to get a Gran Riserva in the Requim campaign, so I decided not to pledge for this one.
-
Looks like i am not the only one who didn't renew my pledge.
I managed to get a Gran Riserva in the Requim campaign, so I decided not to pledge for this one.
Wow...! congrats Sher. I missed out on the Gran Riserva due to time zone differences.
-
These look amazing!!!
UPDATE:
"Today we got in our a legacy prototype decks and wanted to share them with you all. These decks help us test out different shades of color and give us a proper look at how the artwork transfers to cards. We have protodecks for both Legacy blue and red as well as the limited edition black. The detail in the artwork comes through quite well and we are extremely excited to see how the final product would be.
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/663/674/58161b392a8490298760654d1ca28c34_large.jpg?1393035306)
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/663/676/3631a386eefb07b09b8a5d75d2a95b39_large.jpg?1393035325)
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/663/685/5aa4a96280113ad94fa674c129610be4_large.jpg?1393035555)
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/663/690/0f16f084c2325424910c39f6b71d747e_large.jpg?1393035623)
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/663/693/292ddf0baecc1311f70c35eef0ea68b2_large.jpg?1393035692)
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/663/694/1ec0e6bdc96f407d61ce5aa63d1b0895_large.jpg?1393035719)
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/663/698/2dc4a7f5ea415c2709999ddd7ff31faf_large.jpg?1393035750)
CBJ
-
OK< now I HAVE to get off the fence and get some of these! They're freakin' amazing! They remind me a LOT of the beautiful "Limited Edition" series that USPC was making as a set of ten but only completed the first two. This could EASILY have been a deck in that series, except USPC used standard faces and these are much cooler.
-
OK< now I HAVE to get off the fence and get some of these! They're freakin' amazing! They remind me a LOT of the beautiful "Limited Edition" series that USPC was making as a set of ten but only completed the first two. This could EASILY have been a deck in that series, except USPC used standard faces and these are much cooler.
I heard that the Black deck is being printed by MPC and that it's quite pricey. Kind of ironic though that they print a deck about Bicycle's Legacy through MPC.
-
OK< now I HAVE to get off the fence and get some of these! They're freakin' amazing! They remind me a LOT of the beautiful "Limited Edition" series that USPC was making as a set of ten but only completed the first two. This could EASILY have been a deck in that series, except USPC used standard faces and these are much cooler.
I heard that the Black deck is being printed by MPC and that it's quite pricey. Kind of ironic though that they print a deck about Bicycle's Legacy through MPC.
It occurs to me that USPC might have a few things to say about that. He's using some elements of designs owned by USPC on that back...
-
IMO these cards are amaze-balls. If you were on the fence about this campaign - get off it and whip out your wallet
:-[ < me throwing a tantrum if these cards are not made
-
:-[ < me throwing a tantrum if these cards are not made
Get it out now, because with 1/3rd of the funding left and 24 hours to go, I really doubt they're going to make it. I don't know how many held back from contributing after the last campaign was pulled with a very weak justification, but I know I did.
-
:-[ < me throwing a tantrum if these cards are not made
Get it out now, because with 1/3rd of the funding left and 24 hours to go, I really doubt they're going to make it. I don't know how many held back from contributing after the last campaign was pulled with a very weak justification, but I know I did.
I think Pablo shot himself in the foot with the first campaign fiasco. I understand at $15k he would have been underfunded with 2 decks, but to jump to $30k. I think it rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. I decided not to back this one. Partly due to having $400 plus on the line for Jackson, Randy, and Lotrek/UC. I hope Pablo reworks this one more time- start with a single deck, and add a second as a stretch.
-
1.5 hours and $8k+ to go...
Is it wrong how I find it funny that they cancelled the last campaign ahead of time when it seemed they would make it but didn't want to accept the goal they had set, and now that this one looks like it has absolutely no hope at all of being funded, they're letting it run out?
-
1.5 hours and $8k+ to go...
Is it wrong how I find it funny that they cancelled the last campaign ahead of time when it seemed they would make it but didn't want to accept the goal they had set, and now that this one looks like it has absolutely no hope at all of being funded, they're letting it run out?
They got flack for canceling it last time. People complained that if the project wasn't ready for prime time, it shouldn't have been brought to KS in the first place. A number of the original backers stated they wouldn't back a second attempt.
-
Good news in my opinion as I like the 4PM design decks
Within the last 24 hours we have struck a deal to have the Legacy continue into production. With the help of Gambler's Warehouse, the Legacy decks will be available exclusively through their website(s) at: http://www.gamblerswarehouse.com. They are in the process of taking presales before they go on sale. Yes, we will also have them available through our website: http://4pmdesigns.webs.com as well as our ebay official store: http://www.ebay.com/usr/4pmdesigns.
Final artwork is already prepped and preparing to get finalized with the USPCC. Once things are set, Legacy will go into production. All three decks are still intended to be produced at the same quantity. Legacy Black will still have a limited 500 deck run through a third party printer. Once we receive final samples of the quality they will begin production.
Because this is a special case scenario, some special items like signed/numbered decks and uncuts will still be available through our official stores.
We will still continue to post updates on the decks progress so be sure to keep your eye out!
Thanks for all your amazing support! It seems the Legacy does not want to die!
- 4PM DESIGNS
-
That's excellent news - this design really is a good one and it would have been a shame for it to fail.
For a moment, I thought this was the store bought by USPC, but then I remembered that one is called the "Gambler's General Store" instead.
EDIT: though strangely enough, their websites actually have a few design elements in common...specific things that you wouldn't expect two different stores to have appear identical...
-
For a moment, I thought this was the store bought by USPC, but then I remembered that one is called the "Gambler's General Store" instead.
EDIT: though strangely enough, their websites actually have a few design elements in common...specific things that you wouldn't expect two different stores to have appear identical...
From Gambler's Warehouse on Facebook:
"Hey everyone! We have recently expanded from a simple retail store into a warehouse with our offices based in Dallas, Texas - We now have the ability to serve a larger customer base. Please bear with us as we make the transition from Gambler's General Store to the new Gambler's Warehouse!"
So, not as strange as you thought.
-
so stoked - loyal since day one and already pre-ordered my decks in good faith.
-
Got my LEGACY decks in the mail today and these things turned out WAY better than I ever expected. WOW! So worth the wait! Embossed tucks! Ink and lettering on the inside of the tucks - strong stock - vibrant colors!
(http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae51/mojo_turbo/Mobile%20Uploads/20140725_151150_zpsi6epnn9o.jpg)
(http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae51/mojo_turbo/Mobile%20Uploads/20140725_151213_zpsagxexopj.jpg)
(http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae51/mojo_turbo/Mobile%20Uploads/20140725_151247_zps8vaadlkp.jpg)
Reply from Gambler's Warehouse about who made the black deck
This deck is from Apollo Playing Card Company. If compared to USPCC tuck it is slightly thick because the paper stock is different and is textured. EPCC tucks are bulky then USPCC as well.