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Playing Card Chat ♠ ♥ ♣ ♦ => Playing Card Plethora => Topic started by: Don Boyer on December 14, 2013, 02:35:20 AM
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I use a term, "successful failures", to refer to the omni-present KS deck projects that have simply failed to deliver, failed to keep in touch with backers, failed to post any updates and for all intents and purposes have committed Internet fraud using Kickstarter as the conduit for their activities.
Which projects did you back that failed to deliver?
For me, it's these:
Fund Michael Frömmer's 1616 Silver Bicycle® Playing Cards
The Mirror Deck Gaffed Playing Cards
Asylum Playing Cards
ULTRAVIOLET // Playing cards from beta17
I've heard on the Founders Playing Cards project, another successful failure, that the backers have actually gotten the New York State Attorney General's Office involved with an Internet fraud case against the project's creator, John Markian Slabyk, d.b.a. The Department of Design. I'd love to get the various state attorneys general to start hounding all these other successful failures a.k.a. frauds, and hold the creators accountable once and for all.
Let me know who got shorted on what projects. I'll declare an end date of January 31 - at that time, we'll break people into groups based on projects backed and select a volunteer to pursue the case with the attorney general of the creator's home state, including the name of all the group members in it. When the case is picked up, we'll post the case number and instructions for how to join the case to the project's main comments section and try getting as many backers as possible involved in this.
I'm going to add a chart to this post for keeping track of who got defrauded on which projects and we'll take it from there. Please only list projects that have failed to deliver, failed to post updates and failed to respond to backer inquiries - these are the true frauds that need to be dealt with.
Who knows? If we need money to get the ball rolling, perhaps we can create a Kickstarter project to raise the funds for the case! We can post a reward of little black and green ribbons like the pink ones supporting a cure for breast cancer - we'll be supporting a cure for KS Internet fraud, though officially, we're posting a project for the creation and distribution of these ribbons. If nothing else, it would certainly get the attention of Kickstarter itself, hopefully spurring them to be more active in preventing and remedying such situations.
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Mustache playing cards by David Goldklang. No update from him since 7 Sept. Made one comment (not update) last month, saying he took on more than expected. Disappeared again after that. A woman called heather apparently got in contact with uspcc and was told the cards are making their way to David. I'm pretty sure she's affiliated with him in one way or another. I've sent an email the same manner she did and have still got no response from them.
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I can vouch for David G. You will definitely get your Card from Vanda but he did simply take on way too much and is now backed up a good bit.
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Mustache playing cards by David Goldklang. No update from him since 7 Sept. Made one comment (not update) last month, saying he took on more than expected. Disappeared again after that. A woman called heather apparently got in contact with uspcc and was told the cards are making their way to David. I'm pretty sure she's affiliated with him in one way or another. I've sent an email the same manner she did and have still got no response from them.
I was such a n00b. I didn't back this one on Kickstarter, but I messaged him asking about whether I can still pre-order the cards. He sends me a BackerKit invite and I jump in, not reading the comments section on the Kickstarter campaign. :( At the end of October, my card was charged, and I thought things would finally get going, but no word from him since...
I thought it would be okay, since he had already done two previous Kickstarter playing card projects, but I guess not. I've pretty much already lost all hope.
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For me, it's these:
Fund Michael Frömmer's 1616 Silver Bicycle® Playing Cards
The Mirror Deck Gaffed Playing Cards
Asylum Playing Cards
ULTRAVIOLET // Playing cards from beta17
Haven't checked on the project for quite a while.. but I actually received my cards at least a month ago or so. But yeah, I haven't received Asylum, Ultraviolet and Quicksilver, though I am more optimistic about the Quicksilver cards than the others :)
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My first 2 deadbeat Kickstarters were the Bicycle Core deck and the Ultraviolet deck from Beta 17. But I was one of the rare lucky ones that eventually got both decks delivered.
Then the Army Men deck made the list but again luckily I got a refund from Adam. Currently I am still waiting but probably will never see the Founders Deck and The Asylum deck. As far as the Mustache deck goes yeah David has turned in one of those deadbeat I cannot stand. Even if you are having trouble keep the people informed. I cannot stand people like that. OOOO poor baby he doesn't have any money and can't ship/print the cards. If you cannot run a business get the F out of the business. Not sure if I ever will see those mustache decks
I also have a few non card related KS projects that I have been waiting for for more than year.
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How about people that started shipping.. but then never completed. Now some backers are STILL asking for their items or refunds
Vortex <--- 2 years completed and people are still waiting - funded Dec 3, 2011
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/aethercards/vortex-playing-cards-sci-fi-poker-sized?ref=live
Comments section:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/aethercards/vortex-playing-cards-sci-fi-poker-sized/comments
Bicycle Quicksilver <--- 1 year completed and people are still waiting - funded Sept 19, 2012
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1017676492/quicksilver-playing-card-deck?ref=live
Comments section:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1017676492/quicksilver-playing-card-deck/comments
These people should also be held accountable for the fraud they've committed .
CBJ
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I can vouch for David G. You will definitely get your Card from Vanda but he did simply take on way too much and is now backed up a good bit.
with all due respect, I want to hear it from David himself.
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I can vouch for David G. You will definitely get your Card from Vanda but he did simply take on way too much and is now backed up a good bit.
with all due respect, I want to hear it from David himself.
I want to hear it from him as well.
Definitely for me it's the Bicycle Core, Bicycle Quicksilver, Ultraviolet, Asylum, and the Bicycle Army Men since I never got a refund on that one. Fortunately I missed out on the Founders and got away from the Michael Frommer decks and other associated projects. We'll have to see about the Mustache deck but it may also be added to the list. Also what about the Dante's Inferno? Haven't been hearing good things about that one, might be added to the list soon.
On the bright side there is apparently somebody who got a brick of Ultraviolet and is kind of enough to send some out to a few disgruntled backers and I will hopefully be getting one or two of those finally!
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For me, it's these:
Fund Michael Frömmer's 1616 Silver Bicycle® Playing Cards
The Mirror Deck Gaffed Playing Cards
Asylum Playing Cards
ULTRAVIOLET // Playing cards from beta17
Haven't checked on the project for quite a while.. but I actually received my cards at least a month ago or so. But yeah, I haven't received Asylum, Ultraviolet and Quicksilver, though I am more optimistic about the Quicksilver cards than the others :)
I have also received my Mirror Decks a while ago as well. I didn't back those other ones so I'm in the clear.
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The only one that I'm probably not going to get is the Seelie cards.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dernjg/seelie-playing-cards-with-a-touch-of-fairy-magic (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dernjg/seelie-playing-cards-with-a-touch-of-fairy-magic)
I checked out his other projects at the time that one was running. He had previously delivered one card project, and was almost done with some others. Unfortunately, it looks like he hasn't made any progress on any of his projects since July.
Whenever someone at UC complained about this forum, it was because of the Vortex deck. I've seen posts here from people asking about their decks, and then the posts are either locked and moved to the archive, or deleted entirely. That's the reason I've been more active on UC than here. If you're going to do this, then Alex needs to be held to the same level of accountability as everyone else. It would be hypocrisy otherwise.
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Whenever someone at UC complained about this forum, it was because of the Vortex deck. I've seen posts here from people asking about their decks, and then the posts are either locked and moved to the archive, or deleted entirely. That's the reason I've been more active on UC than here. If you're going to do this, then Alex needs to be held to the same level of accountability as everyone else. It would be hypocrisy otherwise.
My only question in regard to that would be: did you personally request Vortex decks as a reward for backing the project and not receive them? Because that was the question I asked.
Aether Cards, the company, despite the URL in place at the moment, has nothing to do with the Discourse at playingcardforum.com. Alex isn't the admin here, I am. He's still on staff and plays an important role here, but that role has nothing to do with his one deck project. That was why Alex was moving all those topics into the Archives back when he was still ranked as admin. These days, I have a good deal of leeway in keeping the board running smoothly.
If you personally didn't receive your decks, and if Alex hasn't given you a satisfactory reason as to why, then by all means, jump on the bandwagon. But if you didn't even order any from him, there's no point in bringing it up, because I created the topic for going after people who have personally defrauded you as an individual so we can join said individuals into a larger group and pursue the case with the Attorney General of the creator's home state.
And no, if someone has a legitimate grievance against any deck creator, I don't plan on censoring the comments made about that creator. I want this place to be a welcoming, enjoyable place for everyone, and want people to know they're free to express their opinions as long as they're placed in the proper topic for it. I won't delete it if it's just the wrong topic - I'd just move it to the correct topic. The only messages I've deleted as admin are those from posters in the STISO who haven't met their minimums yet or from people who asked me specifically to delete them - and in the case of the latter, there should be at least a little justification as to why. Censorship is a slippery slope which I try to avoid and I prefer that people censor themselves in regards to what's appropriate to post and what isn't. Perhaps with the exception of Russell/sprouts1115 and that fugly picture he posted recently...and yet, even that picture is still here. All I ask for is a degree of civility in any discussions around here.
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For me it's 3:
Michael Frommer
- Probably the least hopeful of the 3. It the lack of communication and the fact that there are 3 Manmade Games projects in the same situation that really seem to nail the coffin. Still you never know
Moustache
- It's all very well to vouch for him, or say he bit off more than he could chew - but it takes 5 minutes and no real effort to communicate with an update. Seriously - there is zero excuse not to have a weekly update - even if that's to tell us that there's been no change.
Type Deck
- Again - poor communication, zero preparation (hardly any art done) and a totally unprofessional approach to prioritising work. Sure we're glad you got a job - but that's no excuse to simply put the project on hold, sit on our money, AND SAY NOTHING!
I think these will probably get there, but I'm not holding my breath.
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Haha, I'm not sure where some folks get the idea of censorship around here. It's pretty big over at UC but almost nonexistant here.
None of the old Vortex posts were deleted, they were archived, including the hundreds that were positive, because the forums no longer had anything to do with that deck. Differentiating between the two allowed for a larger community to join, and for more designers to promote their products here without feeling like there is a bias towards my work (and by the way, on UC, you can't even promote your work at all).
I think it's pretty self-evident that the board has nothing to do with my project, and any accountability I have is the same as any other KS project has. If you have a problem with that, you can contact me or KS to vent.
Furthermore, this board pushed tons of projects forward, and many of the companies/decks that were released on KS wouldn't even be here if it weren't for this site and the (literally) hundreds/thousands of hours of work I put into it.
Whenever someone at UC complained about this forum, it was because of the Vortex deck.
That is completely and totally false. Maybe the initial vendetta some folks over there had were a result of their problems with me, but you can easily find dozens of posts harassing other staff members here, as well as the regular members for being more "childish."
There is a reason we are more active than UC, and that's despite my late shipping with my deck.
That's all I have on the subject. :)
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I need to take a break....
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He had a brick of cards and a pair of goggles for $13 international shipping which is a steal. Everyone makes mistakes, but It hard to communicate with a creator when he can't respond to a post.
Russell, we're talking about people who've backed COMPLETED projects that haven't delivered and aren't updated. You're posting a picture of a conversation about a currently-active project - why? It hasn't even closed yet, never mind went past the delivery date...
Please, stay on topic. All the stuff about Vortex and UC is a tangent - if people want to discuss that, I ask that you make a new topic for it. The only exception are people who backed Vortex and didn't receive their reward. I really would like to organize us and turn up the heat on these rip-off projects - and perhaps even Kickstarter.
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I backed both the Michael Frömmer's 1616 Silver Bicycle Playing Cards & Victorian Adventure from Alex W. Luckily no a lot. I see some comments that people are getting refunds when they email him directly. I'm going to take it as lesson learned. No longer will I back a second project when a designer has not delivered the first.
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I backed both the Michael Frömmer's 1616 Silver Bicycle Playing Cards & Victorian Adventure from Alex W. Luckily no a lot. I see some comments that people are getting refunds when they email him directly. I'm going to take it as lesson learned. No longer will I back a second project when a designer has not delivered the first.
Were that the case, and had everyone followed that advice, Federal 52 Part 2 would never have funded.
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I backed both the Michael Frömmer's 1616 Silver Bicycle Playing Cards & Victorian Adventure from Alex W. Luckily no a lot. I see some comments that people are getting refunds when they email him directly. I'm going to take it as lesson learned. No longer will I back a second project when a designer has not delivered the first.
Were that the case, and had everyone followed that advice, Federal 52 Part 2 would never have funded.
Ok- a caveat to my statement- there is always exceptions. With Jackson's projects- he is very involved with the backers, and constantly updates. He has no red flags.
Alex may have been involved more at the beginning, but he had a huge red flag of an $8500 goal.... that barely got there on both.
I think Jackson would admit that running his second project suffered some(time wise to do art) because of how long shipping of Fed 52 took.
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Michael Frommer and Type for me. I have a couple if others like Mustache, but I believe that they will deliver. I also funded several of the projects mentioned in this thread, but I received my cards without ant problem. I've backed around 100 card projects, with only these two being thorns in the side for me.
Victorian adventure as well. I had forgotten about it. Same creator as Michael Frommer.
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I want to add a special note that I think is interesting. I my self backed The Founders deck, and am very disappointed it didn't come through.
The thing I want to point out is during the Sherlock Holmes campaign I ran a google hangout that was also streamed on youtube. The creator of the Founders deck actually made a comment during the hangout.
hmmm, so hes watching
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In case you didn't know, your sister site the UC is planning on doing the same thing your trying to do. http://www.unitedcardists.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2597 (http://www.unitedcardists.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2597) Interesting reading. It all makes sense Kickstarter has been around for what 3 years and now we want to show the bad apples. This will hopefully deter other scammers and bring people to your site for more information. I would say you have some time. I have noticed a significant decline of activity at the UC. I wonder why? At the UC, I do not see a lot of deck creators responding to the posts that people have set up for them. They do have a lot of lurkers, but it takes people to provide content.
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I have noticed a significant decline of activity at the UC. I wonder why? At the UC, I do not see a lot of deck creators responding to the posts that people have set up for them.
That's because the deck creators keep getting banned left and right. It's pretty much the Ratledge Show over at the UC these days, and he's no Don Boyer.
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In case you didn't know, your sister site the UC is planning on doing the same thing your trying to do. http://www.unitedcardists.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2597 (http://www.unitedcardists.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2597) Interesting reading. It all makes sense Kickstarter has been around for what 3 years and now we want to show the bad apples. This will hopefully deter other scammers and bring people to your site for more information. I would say you have some time. I have noticed a significant decline of activity at the UC. I wonder why? At the UC, I do not see a lot of deck creators responding to the posts that people have set up for them. They do have a lot of lurkers, but it takes people to provide content.
Sister site? More like second cousin! :)) Just kidding... Actually, it would be more like the site of the kid next door... There's no relation other than sharing some members in common.
The topic refers to a campaign that Mr. Ratledge wants to see to fruition about getting Kickstarter to force a clause into their creator contracts that requires they supply their backers before entering into any retail sale arrangements with vendors. The thing is, however, that it would dramatically increase the cost of making a deck (and the fact that it would affect ALL projects, not just decks, make it unlikely to pass).
When a designer makes a deck and has a few retailers in place who placed bulk orders for decks, the usual practice is to have USPC break up the shipment to go to the various destinations - for example, Joe Player makes Joe's Deck, he has AceKing, JP and PokerStud52 lined up to buy in bulk, so he arranges for USPC to ship those bulk orders straight to the retailers with the remainder coming to him so he can divvy, pack and ship them to all the backers. USPC will break up a larger shipment like this at no extra charge, or so I'm told.
If Ratledge's rule went into effect, all the decks would have to be shipped to Joe Player or his fulfillment center. Then while dealing with shipping out all the tiny one- and two-deck orders, he'd have to have the retailer bulk orders shipped from his place, at his expense, and he'd have to sit on the entire thing until all those other backer orders were completed. If he got Larry's Mint to make some coins for the campaign and Larry was late on delivering, he's still forced to wait on shipping to the retailers and has all those cards taking up space in either his apartment or at the fulfillment center - which I'm sure would be charging for storage if delivery had to be delayed, since his project is tying up valuable storage space for other projects they've contracted to deliver for other companies. The problem gets compounded when he's dealing with Larry's Mint (coins), Jane's Print Shop (art prints), Jessica's Dice Emporium and Factory (dice) and Bishop's T-Shirt Extravaganza (custom t-shirts). A delay from any of them delays shipments from leaving and keeps the cards out of retailers' hands, which they'll only tolerate for so long before canceling the agreement to buy.
It's just a mess to try adding such a requirement, and it would be not just difficult to enforce, but depending on the laws of the various states and countries, it might not even stand the litmus test to determine if it's legal to have such a requirement.
I have noticed a significant decline of activity at the UC. I wonder why? At the UC, I do not see a lot of deck creators responding to the posts that people have set up for them.
That's because the deck creators keep getting banned left and right. It's pretty much the Ratledge Show over at the UC these days, and he's no Don Boyer.
I hope that's a compliment... :)) Since I think it is, thanks for that.
BTW, has anyone noticed that the UC forum's clock display on the home page is an hour fast?
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Actually, the most important thing that Ratledge wants to get through is that kickstarter shouldn't let campaign creators start a new campaign until their previous one is fulfilled. Which makes a lot of sense.
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Actually, the most important thing that Ratledge wants to get through is that kickstarter shouldn't let campaign creators start a new campaign until their previous one is fulfilled. Which makes a lot of sense.
To some degree, I do agree with that. Your typical Joe Designer on KS is a first-timer and in some cases not just new to design but new to the world of business. It kills me when I see projects literally being put together by children who really don't know what their doing (like the one who thought he could deliver a USPC-made deck for $1,000) and their none-too-knowledgeable parents allow it.
But what about situations where someone's got a small company working on Kickstarter, pulling together projects, getting them shipped, creatingnew ones, etc. You throw in that requirement, then suddenly that company has to go into "serial project" mode, income potential is drastically curtailed and people get laid off (people who probably weren't even making much in the first place). There are so many examples of companies that would be crushed by an onerous requirement such as that, and there are competing websites they can go to for micro-financing.
Worse than all of that, if creators are restricted to making one projects at a time, not starting a new one until they complete delivery on the old one, Kickstarter itself would suffer a dramatic loss of income - I can't see them as being willing to do this.
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In case you didn't know, your sister site the UC is planning on doing the same thing your trying to do. http://www.unitedcardists.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2597 (http://www.unitedcardists.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2597) Interesting reading. It all makes sense Kickstarter has been around for what 3 years and now we want to show the bad apples. This will hopefully deter other scammers and bring people to your site for more information. I would say you have some time. I have noticed a significant decline of activity at the UC. I wonder why? At the UC, I do not see a lot of deck creators responding to the posts that people have set up for them. They do have a lot of lurkers, but it takes people to provide content.
Sister site? More like second cousin! :)) Just kidding... Actually, it would be more like the site of the kid next door... There's no relation other than sharing some members in common.
The topic refers to a campaign that Mr. Ratledge wants to see to fruition about getting Kickstarter to force a clause into their creator contracts that requires they supply their backers before entering into any retail sale arrangements with vendors. The thing is, however, that it would dramatically increase the cost of making a deck (and the fact that it would affect ALL projects, not just decks, make it unlikely to pass).
When a designer makes a deck and has a few retailers in place who placed bulk orders for decks, the usual practice is to have USPC break up the shipment to go to the various destinations - for example, Joe Player makes Joe's Deck, he has AceKing, JP and PokerStud52 lined up to buy in bulk, so he arranges for USPC to ship those bulk orders straight to the retailers with the remainder coming to him so he can divvy, pack and ship them to all the backers. USPC will break up a larger shipment like this at no extra charge, or so I'm told.
If Ratledge's rule went into effect, all the decks would have to be shipped to Joe Player or his fulfillment center. Then while dealing with shipping out all the tiny one- and two-deck orders, he'd have to have the retailer bulk orders shipped from his place, at his expense, and he'd have to sit on the entire thing until all those other backer orders were completed. If he got Larry's Mint to make some coins for the campaign and Larry was late on delivering, he's still forced to wait on shipping to the retailers and has all those cards taking up space in either his apartment or at the fulfillment center - which I'm sure would be charging for storage if delivery had to be delayed, since his project is tying up valuable storage space for other projects they've contracted to deliver for other companies. The problem gets compounded when he's dealing with Larry's Mint (coins), Jane's Print Shop (art prints), Jessica's Dice Emporium and Factory (dice) and Bishop's T-Shirt Extravaganza (custom t-shirts). A delay from any of them delays shipments from leaving and keeps the cards out of retailers' hands, which they'll only tolerate for so long before canceling the agreement to buy.
It's just a mess to try adding such a requirement, and it would be not just difficult to enforce, but depending on the laws of the various states and countries, it might not even stand the litmus test to determine if it's legal to have such a requirement.
I have noticed a significant decline of activity at the UC. I wonder why? At the UC, I do not see a lot of deck creators responding to the posts that people have set up for them.
That's because the deck creators keep getting banned left and right. It's pretty much the Ratledge Show over at the UC these days, and he's no Don Boyer.
I hope that's a compliment... :)) Since I think it is, thanks for that.
BTW, has anyone noticed that the UC forum's clock display on the home page is an hour fast?
Actually
I can vouch for Jessica. You will definitely get your dice from Jessica's Dice Emporium and Factory but she did simply take on way too much and is now backed up a good bit.
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more like the site of the kid next door...
..who is twelve years old and deletes any posts that contain actual facts that prove them wrong.
On the topic of the proposed rule, I can understand why it seems like a good idea on the surface but it wouldn't work well for companies like ours. It may take a few months for us to complete the artwork, but when waiting on other companies' production cycles (and for licensing approvals of soft proofs, etc) there isn't any cash flow for the company. We can create projects far faster than our vendors can produce them so there is a huge bottleneck there. It doesn't make a lot of sense for us to sit around producing projects that may or may not be funded. Instead, we much prefer Kickstarter as not only a way of funding said projects, but to gauge interest in those so that we aren't just picking arbitrary numbers for print runs.
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..who is twelve years old and deletes any posts that contain actual facts that prove them wrong.
Some of us noticed the deleted posts. Guess some people can't stand being wrong (hilarious to see a know-it-all get taken down a peg or two).
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On the topic of the proposed rule, I can understand why it seems like a good idea on the surface but it wouldn't work well for companies like ours. It may take a few months for us to complete the artwork, but when waiting on other companies' production cycles (and for licensing approvals of soft proofs, etc) there isn't any cash flow for the company. We can create projects far faster than our vendors can produce them so there is a huge bottleneck there. It doesn't make a lot of sense for us to sit around producing projects that may or may not be funded. Instead, we much prefer Kickstarter as not only a way of funding said projects, but to gauge interest in those so that we aren't just picking arbitrary numbers for print runs.
I still think designers/project managers should complete the artwork BEFORE starting a kickstarter. As has been proven, it doesn't take much time to go from the completion of a project to getting everything printed and shipped out if everything is ready to go. Designers should be confident enough in their work to put the time in before collecting money from people. Modifications can be done along the way, of course.
Btw, if your vendors can't produce your products fast enough, you'll just end up making kickstarters with a projected delivery date of several years into the future :-\
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On the topic of the proposed rule, I can understand why it seems like a good idea on the surface but it wouldn't work well for companies like ours. It may take a few months for us to complete the artwork, but when waiting on other companies' production cycles (and for licensing approvals of soft proofs, etc) there isn't any cash flow for the company. We can create projects far faster than our vendors can produce them so there is a huge bottleneck there. It doesn't make a lot of sense for us to sit around producing projects that may or may not be funded. Instead, we much prefer Kickstarter as not only a way of funding said projects, but to gauge interest in those so that we aren't just picking arbitrary numbers for print runs.
I still think designers/project managers should complete the artwork BEFORE starting a kickstarter. As has been proven, it doesn't take much time to go from the completion of a project to getting everything printed and shipped out if everything is ready to go. Designers should be confident enough in their work to put the time in before collecting money from people. Modifications can be done along the way, of course.
While I logically understand the "launch the project and work on it while its going" method, I myself could never attempt that. I would stress myself out beyond capacity and would not be able to produce the proper end result. My process involves a lot of design, pondering, refining and reworking and if I was forced to cram it all into a a few weeks I fear that I'd end up with something pretty poor.
Some people can do it well (Jackson would be one of those few) but particularly for first timers I think it's a very poor choice to not have everything done and accounted for in advance.
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The Hedge and The Hedge Special Edition (stripper deck).
Have sent many emails to Justin ("Faro" cards) and have been lied to repeatedly about the state of affairs. I know that some received their decks, but the comments section in all his KS projects feature people who have been burned.
I don't think he set out to be a thief, but it seems very unlikely that he has any intention of fulfilling a large number of orders.
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Actually, the most important thing that Ratledge wants to get through is that kickstarter shouldn't let campaign creators start a new campaign until their previous one is fulfilled. Which makes a lot of sense.
It only makes sense in the playing card market, which is a tiny fraction of KS's userbase. There is also no way of tracking whether or not something is fulfilled, except maybe comments, but KS isn't going to invest manpower to track individual comments for projects.
Now the bigger question is why KS has no internal method for marking as shipped, providing tracking numbers if applicable, providing refunds and working directly with people who pledge, instead of using silly workarounds like PayPal.
And example of why waiting until a pledge is fulfilled clause would be stupid is something like a movie or videogame project. A pledge along the lines of "you will be at the premier/launch party" may be years away, while all the other rewards could be months away. I'm really not sure why KS would fuck themselves and their project creators over financially with weird clauses.
Especially when programming proper customer-creator functions would take all of a couple days and a couple programmers.
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Actually, the most important thing that Ratledge wants to get through is that kickstarter shouldn't let campaign creators start a new campaign until their previous one is fulfilled. Which makes a lot of sense.
It only makes sense in the playing card market, which is a tiny fraction of KS's userbase. There is also no way of tracking whether or not something is fulfilled, except maybe comments, but KS isn't going to invest manpower to track individual comments for projects.
Actually (again), kickstarter just added a checkbox that you can tick on the projects you've received your pledge rewards from. Though, as I said in my message to them, it should be made into TWO checkboxes so you can also tick "Not Received" (after a project has passed its projected delivery date). I'm sure a lot of people won't even notice this new feature, and hence be counted as "Not Received" automatically.
Now the bigger question is why KS has no internal method for marking as shipped, providing tracking numbers if applicable, providing refunds and working directly with people who pledge, instead of using silly workarounds like PayPal.
That's because they don't WANT to be involved, ie they don't want to be liable. They want to take their cut and leave. No, they haven't said that, but it's abundantly clear.
And example of why waiting until a pledge is fulfilled clause would be stupid is something like a movie or videogame project. A pledge along the lines of "you will be at the premier/launch party" may be years away, while all the other rewards could be months away. I'm really not sure why KS would fuck themselves and their project creators over financially with weird clauses.
Those special pledge levels should obviously not count towards something like that. Exceptions to a few pledges within one project shouldn't be a problem to make. And you sound like it would be an automatic process; with the new feature that I mentioned above, it should be no problem for a kickstarter employee to take a quick look and mark the project as "Fulfilled".
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I wasn't aware KS added that feature, although back when I did my project they didn't even require you to fill out a "risks and challenges" form.
You'd probably want a certain % requirement for getting marked as fulfilled, since tossing a backer the power to completely kill a start-up by checking "not received" would be silly.
As for KS liability, their ToS have almost nothing to do with legal liability. When you agree to a website's ToS, it's not even legally binding (at least not in the USA). If they got involved, they could just as easily provide tools for project creators to work with their backers and still maintain their cut.
I'm not sure how they do it now, but when I was shipping I got my addresses in some horribly formatted Excel spreadsheet that had an abundance of errors and absolutely no sorting to it. That's it. Meanwhile, if I sell on eBay/Amazon/PayPal and literally anywhere else I get amazing tools to manage my sales. And guess what? If I sell you something on eBay, eBay isn't liable for it, just like I am not liable on this forum for sales made in STISOs by other people.
Considering how small the KS team is, it's probably just extreme laziness on their part. Heck, try sending an email to their support. You'd be lucky to hear back at all!
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Actually
I can vouch for Jessica. You will definitely get your dice from Jessica's Dice Emporium and Factory but she did simply take on way too much and is now backed up a good bit.
:)) I've missed that sense of humor!
We've gotten heavily sidetracked with the debate over "Ratledge's Rule" here, so let's rein it in and continue to focus on the real topic here - an effort to track who's been burned by a KS creator and try using the state attorneys general to hold them accountable for their actions. The only way to clean up KS is to show people that there are consequences for totally taking a flyer on your project and leaving everyone empty-handed.
Who else has been burned before, and by which projects? Only count those that to date still haven't delivered, haven't updated in an excessive period of time and for which you personally have pledged.
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Quicksilver. Say what you want about him delivering but he only updates when someone message kickstarter about him not sending rewards. After his black friday sale there was no new info.
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There are tons of rules and guidelines that can be put into place, on both Kickstarters side and the backers side. But the most powerful rule that will never be overturned is a backers ability to not swipe their own card.
Of course, a few creators have failed, and another few creators have straight up committed fraud, and that sucks for everyone. (I backed founders myself so I understand the backers side) I encourage everyone to put the creators to the test, grill them, ask them questions and if they don't answer to your liking don't back them, don't swipe your card.
On the topic of designing 100% before launching. It is different for everyone. I have had numerous chats with Paul Carpenter about that very topic and it really boils down to the creator. Should a first timer do it absolutely not. (Wait a minute, you did it jerk) Your right I did do it but I also had almost 12 years of design and package design experience before coming to the table.
Who ever the creator is put them through the gauntlet, see what they are made of. Now having done 3 projects, I can sniff out someone who hasn't done their homework within about 10 seconds of them opening their mouths.
One of the things your backing is the person and the style of that persons project. I will back Paul's projects everytime without even seeing the cards, same with UUSI. Paul and I run a completely different style of project and that's awesome. If they were all the same their would be no individuality and also accountability between creator and backer. When I back Paul or UUSI I know exactly the quality and attention to detail that I'm going to get every-time, no matter what the theme or concept.
Sure it takes time and a track record to build that respect. But we as backers can put he same standard on rookies as well. Expect the same quality, attention to detail, and planning from everyone even the 14 year old brat who feels like putting together a deck after their nightly session of COD. If you demand the highest standards from everyone the weak, unprepared, and uneducated will quickly realize they have more learning to do and more development to do as an artist and a businessmen. That mentality will revolutionize the industry and also the standards.
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On the topic of designing 100% before launching. It is different for everyone. I have had numerous chats with Paul Carpenter about that very topic and it really boils down to the creator. Should a first timer do it absolutely not. (Wait a minute, you did it jerk) Your right I did do it but I also had almost 12 years of design and package design experience before coming to the table.
I remember when Lance Miller came to KS with his Actuators project. He'd had a very successful release of his Bicycle Gargoyles through Diavoli and wanted to be a little more independent this time around. However, he had relatively little of the art done going into the first project for the color deck, which resulted in him being several weeks off of his scheduled delivery date. So here's a case of an experienced designer who shouldn't have done what you, Jackson, already did!
I think it really does boil down to the individual and their capabilities. When I was in high school, I had a serious aptitude for computer programming. In my Computer Math III class, I was not challenged in the least by the work that was being assigned, so I spend most of my class time tackling my own side projects to challenge myself - and I played some video games! One day, the teacher gave us an assignment in the last five minutes of class, explained the entire assignment top to bottom, and when the bell rang, I handed him a piece of paper. He said, "What's this?" I replied, "The homework assignment - it's already done." I never studied for a single test, including the final, and never scored less than 100.
And it was the worst thing that I and the school could ever have done, leaving me in that class. Other students saw what I was doing, saw I was getting great grades and tried emulating what I did to some degree, or at least the fun parts like playing the video games. As a result, their scores suffered, some close to the point of failing. What was as easy as breathing for me was a lot more challenging for them.
Getting back to designing a KS deck project, it's probably a good idea to have somewhere between 50% and 95% of the work completed, depending on your level of expertise in design. Not 100%, but close to it - if you're 100% done, you have no room to account for changes your backers may find desirable. You really have to know yourself to do that, and many first timers won't have the experience under their belts to know themselves well enough to gauge this properly, especially those first timers who never worked in design before - a young kid who toys around and knows a little about Photoshop and almost nothing about deadlines.
If you're nearly completed when you launch, don't blow the whole wad at once - use reveals. It's what some designers do on their decks - a percentage of their art is completed before the project, but they don't reveal it on the outset and leave it at that. They tease it out over the course of the campaign, particularly as new works are completed leading to that 100% mark so when the project is done, they've got it pretty well locked down and are either within a few days of submitting art to USPC or are completely ready, no need to wait.
I've heard of people wanting to hold off on showing an entire deck because they're paying someone else to do the design work and they don't want to pay the artist yet for the full job because they don't want to risk their cash on a project that might fail.. These projects tend to flounder - you have some fantastic vision in your head of what you want, but couldn't get it down on paper or into a computer hard drive. If you have the funds, you have to show people what their getting - only a handful of backers (cough-GALAXY-cough-CARDS-cough-THREE-cough) would be willing to shell out on a deck that they haven't even seen the full work for yet. That also holds true for an artist that isn't close enough to finished by project's end, leaving more work yet to do.
NOW, LADIES AND GENTS, it's been a lovely tangent, but can we get back to the topic, please? It's a lovely topic, too, right? Feel free to make a new topic on this subject in the design board - it would generate a lively discussion, I think. :))
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It's funny how people talk about running a business via KS. Last I checked KS was a way of launching products and ideas, not a way of maintaining a business. I think some of these companies should have enough of a following to not need KS anymore.
Btw, Seelie just made an update making a bunch of excuses and offering 25% refunds, like what the hell! Is that even allowed on KS terms? Definitely would say not to back any of his projects.
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I view KS like I view Ebay. It started for one reason (selling PEZ disposers over on Ebay), and then morphed into a tool that folks use lots of different ways. Ebay lets you do "non-auctions" even (buy it now). KS will have growing pains and sadly, they will never have the revenue of Ebay to invest in their tools and website. I've been to their offices and it still felt like a start-up when I was there about 18 months ago.
Some folks will run entire businesses through KS and I say "good for them!" Others will be normal people attempting to reach a life-goal, and super-famous folks will use it to skirt the "normal" way of doing things. Good for them all I say!
Eventually, the little folks will lose out on the % of eyeballs they can attract, but hopefully KS will grow the total number of eyeballs, allowing for the little guy to make it too.
As for rules, KS has frightening few of them, enforced in a less-than-consistent way. They do try to make sure that creators don't start a second campaign until they have proven they can deliver one. But once you prove yourself, they give you more room. Because I've always delivered on time or early, I can vouch for the fact that they give you more room to run.
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Well Fox is Nashville will be doing a story on the Asylum deck and yours truly got interviewed for it, should be on tonight.
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Well Fox is Nashville will be doing a story on the Asylum deck and yours truly got interviewed for it, should be on tonight.
Please post a link when you have it. I'd love to see it.
I totally missed this post before today. I've been burned by the following:
Founders Playing Cards
Fund Michael Frömmer's 1616 Silver Bicycle® Playing Cards
A Victorian Adventure Custom Bicycle Playing Cards
Seelie: Playing Cards with a Touch of Fairy Magic
The Type Deck - Typography Playing Cards printed by USPCC
I got cards from the Mustache project, but still waiting for Royal Wilderness and Alice of Wonderland Playing Cards - Gold & Silver Editions
Believe it or not, I'm much more selective now on choosing projects to back.
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I think the Type deck might still be ok. It will on tonight at 930 pm central time on www.fox17.com (http://www.fox17.com)
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Well according to the news Nash still claims he will deliver the goods, but I'm doubtful.
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I think the Type deck might still be ok. It will on tonight at 930 pm central time on www.fox17.com (http://www.fox17.com)
Here's a link to the actual article on the site, including video of a Skype interview with Victor:
http://www.fox17.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/waste-watch-crowd-funding-pitfalls-eric-alvarez-19645.shtml
One of the observations of the Tennessee Better Business Bureau is that crowdfunding sites such as Kickstarter are virtually unregulated. Gee, really? How long did it take to reach THAT conclusion?!?
UPDATE - the link changed:
http://www.fox17.com/news/features/waste-local/stories/waste-watch-crowd-funding-pitfalls-eric-alvarez-62.shtml
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I have been very lucky, but also very choosy. The only playing card projects I have not received are the ones that aren't due yet. I did back a board game that is now a year late, but I looked around a little and I am pretty sure this is not a board game site.
So, uh, carry on.
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It's that preflight stage when the real world and its restrictions collide with the infinite possibilities of design that things get messy. I always felt bad/hated in house designers after getting their first proofs. Spot colors, angle set, paper grain, coverage there is no way a computer screen is gonna match. Add the fact that customer proofs are never printed on the press a whole new set of production nightmares begin.
In my opinion a kickstarter project's design should be finished, cause 9 times out of 10 "ready to go" couldn't be farther from the truth.
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It's that preflight stage when the real world and its restrictions collide with the infinite possibilities of design that things get messy. I always felt bad/hated in house designers after getting their first proofs. Spot colors, angle set, paper grain, coverage there is no way a computer screen is gonna match. Add the fact that customer proofs are never printed on the press a whole new set of production nightmares begin.
In my opinion a kickstarter project's design should be finished, cause 9 times out of 10 "ready to go" couldn't be farther from the truth.
By that you mean "finished before launch", I presume? If so, I agree.
It still doesn't alter the fact that there will be discrepancies between your vision as seen in RGB on your computer screen and the finished product created in CMYK. Some of the worse ones I've seen look dark and muddy because the colors lacked sufficient contrast from each other to stand out.
The thing of it is, in this case, it look a lot more like a case of fraud rather than a case of "the cards didn't come out right". If I'm not mistaken, this is the guy who was trying to convince his backers (myself included) that the job was already printed and that USPC was awaiting payment for it. It's total bulls***, of course, because USPC won't even go to press without the cash up front and a signed contract to go with it.
A lot of crowdfunding scammers probably saw this as a good opportunity to raise cash fast and try to disappear. They're learning that their backers are often tenacious in their information gathering and that despite Kickstarter's utterly lackadaisical attitude to fraud, various attorneys-general take a dim view of it and are willing to build cases against them. It may even extend into FBI territory as the fraud often crosses state lines by "telephonic means", making it a form of wire fraud.
I don't know about you, but the last thing I would want, especially if I was a scammer, would be FBI agents putting on their boots and crawling up my ass...
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It's that preflight stage when the real world and its restrictions collide with the infinite possibilities of design that things get messy. I always felt bad/hated in house designers after getting their first proofs. Spot colors, angle set, paper grain, coverage there is no way a computer screen is gonna match. Add the fact that customer proofs are never printed on the press a whole new set of production nightmares begin.
In my opinion a kickstarter project's design should be finished, cause 9 times out of 10 "ready to go" couldn't be farther from the truth.
By that you mean "finished before launch", I presume? If so, I agree.
It still doesn't alter the fact that there will be discrepancies between your vision as seen in RGB on your computer screen and the finished product created in CMYK. Some of the worse ones I've seen look dark and muddy because the colors lacked sufficient contrast from each other to stand out.
The thing of it is, in this case, it look a lot more like a case of fraud rather than a case of "the cards didn't come out right". If I'm not mistaken, this is the guy who was trying to convince his backers (myself included) that the job was already printed and that USPC was awaiting payment for it. It's total bulls***, of course, because USPC won't even go to press without the cash up front and a signed contract to go with it.
A lot of crowdfunding scammers probably saw this as a good opportunity to raise cash fast and try to disappear. They're learning that their backers are often tenacious in their information gathering and that despite Kickstarter's utterly lackadaisical attitude to fraud, various attorneys-general take a dim view of it and are willing to build cases against them. It may even extend into FBI territory as the fraud often crosses state lines by "telephonic means", making it a form of wire fraud.
I don't know about you, but the last thing I would want, especially if I was a scammer, would be FBI agents putting on their boots and crawling up my ass...
I was was going to say a group of computer savy kids could do more harm than the FBI, but that was before I knew butts were under the FBIs jurisdiction
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Has anyone ever been prosecuted? It seems like there would be a mountain of proof.
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Has anyone ever been prosecuted? It seems like there would be a mountain of proof.
The wheels of justice are relentless, but a tad on the slow side... It's taking time for some prosecutors to catch up to what crowdfunding is, never mind the fraud aspect.
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It's not card related, but you have got to check out the extremist actions from the creator of this Kickstarter "successful failure"! Unbelievable!!
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/02/28/kickstarter-fail-john-campbell-burns-comics-rather-than-sending-them-to-donors/
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It's not card related, but you have got to check out the extremist actions from the creator of this Kickstarter "successful failure"! Unbelievable!!
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/02/28/kickstarter-fail-john-campbell-burns-comics-rather-than-sending-them-to-donors/
That is just crazy ...... :o . It just leaves me speechless and a bad taste in my mouth for Kickstarter projects.
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It's not card related, but you have got to check out the extremist actions from the creator of this Kickstarter "successful failure"! Unbelievable!!
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/02/28/kickstarter-fail-john-campbell-burns-comics-rather-than-sending-them-to-donors/
That is just crazy ...... :o . It just leaves me speechless and a bad taste in my mouth for Kickstarter projects.
That guy needs his meds adjusted. He's hairy b@t$hit crazy.
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It's not card related, but you have got to check out the extremist actions from the creator of this Kickstarter "successful failure"! Unbelievable!!
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/02/28/kickstarter-fail-john-campbell-burns-comics-rather-than-sending-them-to-donors/
That is just crazy ...... :o . It just leaves me speechless and a bad taste in my mouth for Kickstarter projects.
That guy needs his meds adjusted. He's hairy b@t$hit crazy.
Couldn't this guy be sued or something??
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Couldn't this guy be sued or something??
With any lawsuit, it's ultimate the question of is it worth it. It's just to too expensive and considering the guy has pretty much no money left, it'd be a waste of money to end up getting nothing back at all.
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Couldn't this guy be sued or something??
With any lawsuit, it's ultimate the question of is it worth it. It's just to too expensive and considering the guy has pretty much no money left, it'd be a waste of money to end up getting nothing back at all.
Suing is an option, though not likely to be rewarding in any sense of the word. However, getting the state's Consumer Affairs people and the Attorney General's office to pursue him for fraud - that might work. It works best when you can gather into the fold as many complainants as possible to give the fraud added weight. An AG might pass up a loss of $10 or $20 from one person, but when you start hitting the thousands in dollars lost and the defrauded are counted in the hundreds, it's much tougher to ignore. Defraud enough people, particularly over state lines, and the case could become Federal - and even if it doesn't, if he's taken in a certain dollar amount in his fraudulent activities, the case could wind up on the level of a felony offense and carry jail time.
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I've been waiting on my loop cuts card clips for quite some time. They were successfully funded, however 7 months later - it hasn't jogged my memory up until now - nothings turned up and loop cuts website, the kickstarter user loopcuts, and robert butler have disappeared.
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Sounds like a case worth pursuing - if you can get together enough KS members who also backed his project and received nothing. You should be able to continue posting on the KS project page, right? Organize and file complaints.
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I'm one of many who have been burned by two projects by Alex Willis in Philly - the 1616 Deck and the Victorian Adventure Deck. I have a collector friend who is out over $300 to this guy for the same projects. He's "escaped" with over $17K for these decks! How many of you are in the same boat, and what did you do about it?
AND - how do we get ahold of this idiot? Surely SOMEBODY must know him. He went to great lengths to make it seem like he had the cards "in hand".
I'm brand new to the group - sorry if this has been hashed out before.
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Hey there Joe. Head on over to the Introduce Yourself thread, and let us know a little about you. Let us give you a proper welcome.
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I'm one of many who have been burned by two projects by Alex Willis in Philly - the 1616 Deck and the Victorian Adventure Deck. I have a collector friend who is out over $300 to this guy for the same projects. He's "escaped" with over $17K for these decks! How many of you are in the same boat, and what did you do about it?
AND - how do we get ahold of this idiot? Surely SOMEBODY must know him. He went to great lengths to make it seem like he had the cards "in hand".
I'm brand new to the group - sorry if this has been hashed out before.
Actually Alex used to be a VERY regular poster here on Discouse (http://www.playingcardforum.com/profile/ManMadeGames/). He used to post a few times a day, but hasn't at all in a long time - pretty much since his Decks started to get past delivery dates.
I remember having a pretty heated debate with him last year on a thread about freelance rates. He was proud that he found a foreign Artist who would charge some ridiculously low hourly rate of $15, or something like that. I couldn't find the thread though.
Good hunting!
Randy
EDIT: I just found the thread I was referencing above. It's not $15 an hour, it's actually $25 per image that he's proud of!! (http://www.playingcardforum.com/design-development/my-new-line-of-christian-decks/msg71747/#msg71747)
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I merged this topic with an older one that deals with the same subject. Doktor, I suggest you check out the previous posts.
What it boils down to is that Kickstarter will do NOTHING, other than to tell you to contact the local authorities.
You may be able to bring a case against him if you can present your evidence to his state's attorney general's office. You could try it in your own state, but it seems to make more sense to pursue him using his own state's AG. I haven't checked for updates in a while, but another person, I think the guy in charge of the Founders deck debacle, was being pursued in New York by the AG here after said AG received enough complaints.
Gather together other dissatisfied backers and get them behind this - it will lend a LOT more weight to the issue and make the AG more inclined to pursue a fraud case when presented with dozens if not hundreds of victims.
Be prepared for the process to take months, if not years. Nothing moves quickly through the courts anymore, at least not in New York. Also consider that receiving the full amount of your investment is very unlikely, though there is a chance you'll get some portion of it back if the AG is successful. It will largely depend on the con man's available funds and assets which can be liquidated.
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Fringe, I've been robbed by Alex as well. Go to Kickstarter and search for "Founders cards". Read the comments from backers. I had a bad feeling about these and didn't pledge for them, but I keep up with this project based on the fact that it is the one most likely to generate legal action. It's pretty far along in the process, so it will be the bellweather as far as what backers of other failed projects can do, and the results that we could expect. Those backers have been whipped into a frenzy for a long time, and I hope that they are successful because that will pave the way for others like us to pursue deadbeat criminals/thieves like Alex.
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Thanks for the info everyone. I'm not so concerned about making MY $ back as I am having someone locate this guy and put the screws on him to do something. He can hide behind Kickstarter and the legal system, but there's got to be a way to make his life hell through the internet and literally through personal contact (not physical!).
I'm sure my friend isn't the only one who funded for much more than I did. Those are the people that should be made whole, even if it's just knowing that this guy won't be a part of our fun-based "society" again. I would assume he has (had) a passion for this hobby to get to the point had did in these non-projects. He should be ostracized and feel the loneliness!
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Your points and concerns are valid because although I don't think that it will ever be widespread, someone will look at the projects and realize that he/she could pretty much take money for free, without much in the was of repercussion. Something has to happen at some point to make this possibility an option with only a remote chance of happening, instead of the easy liklihood that it is currently. There's not much, if anything, in place to stop fradulent creators today, and that's very scary.
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I've been waiting on my loop cuts card clips for quite some time. They were successfully funded, however 7 months later - it hasn't jogged my memory up until now - nothings turned up and loop cuts website, the kickstarter user loopcuts, and robert butler have disappeared.
Hey Agera94, Please check your KS account if you haven't already. I just saw this message and you should have a tracking number, or the clip by now for that matter.
Thanks