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Messages - Utterfool

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151
Playing Card Plethora / Re: Ellusionist - Is Something Coming?
« on: August 11, 2012, 12:17:42 PM »
If they have 3 decks coming out in a short series, it might be time to sell/trade off your stock of LTD decks, because I am sure they will flood the market with another giveaway of this "Limited" deck

152
Design & Development / Re: Philosophy Deck Design
« on: August 10, 2012, 09:55:21 AM »
This is getting way to complicated.
I really feel bad for you, creation by committee is so difficult.
I have to say you are handling it in stride.

That being said
I don't like the wrap around text, it makes it look to jumbled
I think you should stay with the quote that just runs through the entire back
or go back up to the earlier designs with the quote running down the side and instead of the circular pip design use your new pip design.

This quote lay out  with the pip layout in the next picture  ( just my opinion, pushing you closer to insanity)



153
Playing Card Plethora / Re: Oriental Playing Cards
« on: August 09, 2012, 11:30:48 PM »
Did you request an uncut or did you get that as a give away.
I don't remember them offering the uncut sheets

154
Playing Card Plethora / Re: Oriental Playing Cards
« on: August 09, 2012, 10:56:17 PM »
They did release some decks in the US.
I believe it was 288 and you were able to order a max of 12.
They sold them on Aug 4th if you emailed your order to them.

Apparently they sold out in about 10 minutes.

155
Playing Card Plethora / Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« on: August 09, 2012, 02:28:31 PM »
I have one thing to add, would it not be possible that a White deck if this theory existed could have more ink than a black? Because they are still using white ink on the stock so it would be close to equal in black and white decks.

Now if this is a fact.
Then really the whole argument from the beginning is moot, with neither side being correct.
Because this would mean all decks would be completely saturated with ink and have relatively the same ink to card stock ratio.

the new argument that would have to be started, with people taking sides is "is there an affect on handling from using dark inks versus light inks"
and if that is the case then I can jump on the band wagon and say there is definitely an affect " I know without a doubt that red inks (and any color that contains red) handle much worse then blue inks"
In fact I am going to go do a bunch of deck reviews right now touting that theory. :t11:

156
Playing Card Plethora / Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« on: August 09, 2012, 12:40:29 PM »
So this experiment wouldn't really lead to anything. Just different opinions from different people. It's a good idea but anyways, in 15 minutes, I doubt the deck would be broken down.

15minutes ... 15 minutes, that random number I pulled out of my ass as an example is all that you grasped from my post.

Wow
The point is really lost on this crowd.

I suppose i will stop trying to be helpful and or informative.

157
Playing Card Plethora / Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« on: August 09, 2012, 10:09:29 AM »
Before I go into the discussion below I will state my belief on this subject for the record
"I believe that with the modern materials used any deck that is made out of high quality materials will have basically the same handling"
"I believe that handling comes down to individual preference and bias"
"any deck that genuinely handles badly or "worse" is due to the conditions on the day of manufacture each of the decks components  and also of the deck , as well as the storage, and climate "
"I also believe that if someone likes a deck design sufficiently they will overlook any handling issues, even possibly to the extremes of a papercut on every fan"

The thing about doing an experiment with a hypothesis is that the hypothesis is not true until proven true.

In this case, the hypothesis is that ink:stock ratio negatively impacts a deck of cards when the saturation is high.

There is no evidence to support the case. Most anecdotal evidence supports the opposite.

Even with the experiment UF proposed, the variables are too high to count. We know for a fact that if ink saturation has any effect whatsoever, that effect is extremely minuscule. There are so many things along those lines that can affect handling it's crazy.

Which is why it's absolutely idiotic to rate a deck of cards on something that is barely even a legitimate hypothesis.

Actually in the above experiment I failed to state a hypothesis. I apologize for that, it allowed others to assume a hypothesis to continue the argument

An appropriate hypothesis should always, if possible, be the null hypothesis
In this case " The level of ink saturation has no affect to the handling of the cards."

Choosing a hypothesis with 2 possible outcomes is always preferable to one that has more.
In this case
Prove the Hypothesis
"Yes there is no affect to the handling of the cards created from the ink ratio in the cards"
Disprove the hypothesis
"No, there is an affect from the ink ratio on the handling of the cards"

If the affect is positive or negative can be gathered from the data.

As far as the idea of so many minuscule differences that affect handling
Yes this is exactly true and by making the deck at the same time on the same uncut sheet storing them both in the same location and conditions. You are eliminating the majority if not all of those minuscule differences.

The point I am making this entire time is that it's one thing to propose an idea, and then test it to see if it's true. It's a completely different ball game when you come up with an idea, tell everyone it's true, create ratings systems out of them, tell reviewers that they should review based on this idea, and turn it into a real thing when it is anything but.

this is precisely why factual evidence needs to be gathered.

there is absolutely no way to change everyone's mind with an opinion.  It is nigh impossible enough with fact.

This idea was born either out of anecdotal evidence or on a whim. However it was born in gained credence through use and now some people believe it and will continue to believe it no matter how much some people argue strongly against it or poorly for it.

In this case Alex
Your argument against it was poor and left room for a greater discussion/argument that may or may not have solidified the belief in some peoples mind.
You, in the same sentence, gave "factual evidence" in favor of a difference in the handling of cards due to the ink ratio, and then shot it down with your opinion of that fact.

The best example is here:
Now the fact is, if you drench a piece of printer paper in black ink, that paper will feel completely different than an unsaturated one. The difference is almost negligible, but it's there. However, paper is significantly less thick than playing card paste board.

If you truthfully feel that this bias is damaging to sales and a blight on the community you would support the idea of finding proof, not just badger another post with your opinion.

However I feel that this argument exists for argument sake (which is completely valid, especially on a discussion board) 

In such situations one does not really care the outcome of the argument as long as they get the last word.


To address the thoughts of Redtank151
But perhaps a flaw with the experiment is that an person who has experienced black decks before can definitely feel whether a deck is inky or not even when blind folded and gagged. So in their mind they would go *click* this is the inky one therefore its worse or something like that.

I do not see this as a flaw, as feel of a deck is part of the handling. If an expert can truthfully feel the difference between a highly saturated deck and a not highly saturated deck, then there is a difference between the two and the hypothesis is voided.
If they can't and they just believe they can, well then statistically they will chose correctly 50% of the time and the hypothesis will be proven.

To eliminate this possibility of bias altogether, is why I suggested having a large sample of varying experience and talent.

158
Playing Card Plethora / Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« on: August 09, 2012, 12:59:13 AM »
Ok

Here is the experiment that can be conducted to end this argument

This will cost a bit of money. But it can easily be made a blinded experiment so that the opinion will be based solely on the handling and feel and have no bias by opinions towards if one "believes" a deck with higher ink ratio performs worse or not. it can also easily be made double blinded (which is the experiment I will describe below)

this is the preparation
deck creation
you will need to create a deck in limited number. You can go with the Bicycle site that lets you create small runs or if you wish to save money go with Brahma or some other small company.
To eliminate the possibility that difference in handling might be due to different runs of paper stock or formulations of finish the deck will be half of the cards with a high ratio of ink to stock and half with a low ratio of ink to stock. Best would be 28 cards on each uncut sheet be all black and 28 be all white. this gives the greatest difference in ratio, It will also guarantee that the stock is exactly the same and that the finish is exactly the same for each deck. I am not an expert handler or flourisher, so if it is the case that you need a full deck to accurately test flourishes and what not you simply combine the whites to whites from two decks and the blacks to blacks from the same deck (this will insure that the two full decks are still equal in all ways but ink ratio)
before the experiment the decks should all be boxed up in identical boxes and placed in 2 deck sets. 50% of the boxes will have black decks on top and 50% will have white decks on top.
Blind creation
you will need to create that a test subject can not see into. It should have enough room so they can move their hands and arms about easily inside. and probably a dark cloth covering the front. Of course a simple blind fold would do as well, but being blind folded is sometimes disturbing to the test subject.
test subject
it would be best to get a sample size of >100 if possible I would not go less than 50 though just for accuracy of the statistics.
the persons back ground is not important, but at the same time it would not hurt the truth of the results by biasing the sample population to those who are familiar with handling and the feel of cards. using experienced flourishers actually may be helpful so the cards can be put to the full test. This part is certainly up for debate because some would say for a true test you need a fully deverse sample and others would say for a true test you need to fully utilize the cards.

Double blind experiment
A group of the boxed deck sets are given to each experimenter.
The experimenter places the top deck in the box in front of the test subject (or just hands it to them if they are blind folded.
the experimenter will not know which deck they gave to the test subject first until the test subject opens it.
the test subject will then use this deck for a designated time period (lets say 15 minutes) and then place it back in the box.
the experimenter will then provide the test subject with the bottom deck and the test subject will then use that deck for the same period of time.
The test subject will then ask which deck they felt performed/handled better, and will record the result.
Because the experimenter did not know which deck he gave the test subject first he is in a blind and is therefore unbiased (can't show there bias)
Because the test subject can not see the deck they are performing with he is blind and is therefore unbiased.

If this experiment is continued with a large enough sample a statistically significant result can be shown that will guide with fact which, if any, is better.

A result of more choosing the low ink ratio would show that High ink ratio does indeed make the handling worse
A result of people choosing relatively equally would show that there is indeed no effect from the ink ratio to handling
A result of more people choosing the high ink ratio would show that high ink ratio actually makes cards handle better.


It was mentioned above by someone else who I can not remember, that there is the placebo effect around decks. there are in fact many placebo a effects around branded items.
If someone has heard a bad review of a deck by someone they respect, they tend to like that deck, and vice versus. If they have had a deck handle badly from a company in the past they will tend to find that all their decks handle poorly, and vice versus. If they have had a deck with high ratio of ink to card stock perform great in the past they will tend to find that they feel all decks with high ink perform well, and vice versus. If they like a particular finish, dislike a card stock, were beaten with a brick of Arrcos as a child these will all affect they way they perceive a deck handling.

Until this experiment or one similar to this is done any information about ink to card stock ratio will be just opinion. Even if this information comes from a large company (though they might have a closer to real answer because they will draw from a larger sample)

Opinions are like orgasms.... I don't care if you have one  :D ;)

159
Playing Card Plethora / Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« on: August 08, 2012, 08:10:47 AM »
I am sorry for posting here.

I can tell that some tempers are getting a little high and I do not wish to fan the fire (ok maybe a little)

But I have found this thread so amusing, that I have to comment.
The thing that is so beautiful about this thread is the anger that has come out of it.
and this is why.
It all boils down to faith Vs. fact.
You see I am a scientist by trade. I work in the technology dept. of a pharmaceutical company. I do deviation management and process improvement. I spend my days (nights actually) investigating and searching fact.
The thing you see in a meeting is when the meeting is based on facts nobody ever really gets that angry. Sure there is frustration that things are not going the way we would wish.
The time anger comes in is when faith gets involved. A manager will get angry when he has faith that a system (that he knows is poorly designed) will work, and it doesn't. If you approach that manager with fact they will often be angry but usually not quite as angry (sometimes they may have to vent the anger towards their underlings). When you go to that manager with faith in an idea that you think will work better when the managers idea fails, both parties usually end up furious and someone has to come to stop it from escalating.

My point here is no facts have been given on either side of the argument, it has all been based on opinion and faith. In fact few posts really in this thread bear any fact, even down to the "proven" metallic ink theory.
I will say Don may have showed us some facts in his last post interspersed with opinion and faith (although without data, I can not vouch for the validity of what he has said)
And that is what I really loved about this post (what makes me love and hate humanity at the same time)
People got so angry over their faith in something as simple as do cards handle better or worse when they have a lot of ink. (even causing someone to rage quit)
And I know, I know, it isn't as little to people in the industry who's sales might be hurt by such rumors, opinion, and faith.
But it is still so grand to look at these first world problems.
I thank you and love you guys.
I really am sorry if this sounds like a huge attack. It is not meant as such. It is just an observation.

and by the way
"Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing"
actually it IS a thing. Every card has a measurable ratio of the amount of ink compared to the amount of stock (Fact)
Now what might not be a thing is
"High ink to stock ratio makes cards perform worse" (until proven otherwise - opinion)

Thank you and Good Night

160
Introduce Yourself / Re: A Complete and Utter Fool
« on: August 08, 2012, 07:45:52 AM »
OK, I'll ask - what the heck is a "sumo deck"?  Never heard of it.

A "sumo" deck is a deck of cards that I picked up at a Sumo tournament in Nagoya. It has each of the ozeki class and Yokozuna class fighters on the faces. This deck is special to me because I picked it up at the last Sumo tournament I attended which also happened to be the last Nagoya tournament Asashoryu competed at. Asashoryu for those who don't know is probably the greatest Yokozuna fighter of all time. He is unfortunately Mongolian and therefore was not liked by the Japanese, the Japanese looked for everyway they could get him out of the sport and finally after a Charity soccer match, a scandal over a suit and a bar brawl they successfully forced him into retirement. If he had not retired there is no way he wouldn't have beaten every record Japan had. He still had another 2 or 3 good fighting years in him and he was only a couple of tournaments from holding teh record.

So any way, that is what the "Sumo" deck is. Probably handles worth shit but it's sentimental is huge

161
Playing Card Plethora / Re: Bicycle Transducer Night Sakura [NEW DECK]
« on: August 07, 2012, 08:05:54 AM »
I actually really prefer this back.
Top to bottom the cards are symmetrical so it is OK for magicians. but left to right it looses that symmetry and I find that aesthetically pleasing.

As for the blossoms, I find it hard to believe this was designed by a Japanese person. They send the pink cherry blossoms to America, The Japanese prefer the white petaled trees. They have pink undertones, but most assuredly are white
At the end of the season when the petals begin to fall, it is like a slow falling snow.

Ahh natsukashi


162
Playing Card Plethora / Re: Issues and Defects with playing cards
« on: August 07, 2012, 07:49:24 AM »
I once had a deck that, when I bit into it, I found half a worm inside. It was weird because I cut it up looking for the other half but couldn't find it.
I mean how does half a worm get into a deck of cards?

The outside was all shiny and didn't have any tears or dents at all


163
Playing Card Plethora / Re: Hornet Deck by Circle City Cards
« on: August 07, 2012, 07:40:48 AM »
The first 50 (misprints)
were sold without cellophane or a seal.
Sellers won't be able to pass off any deck as a misprinted one. (unless of course they dye the cards) ;D


164
Design & Development / Re: How Can I do this Without Being Sued?
« on: August 06, 2012, 11:49:07 AM »

Kings:
Elvis Presley
Michael Jackson
Freddie Mercury
Gene Simmons
Mick Jagger
Curt Cobain
(Yes, I know I have six. i haven't decided which to use yet)

I can Narrow that down for you right now.
You should dump Michael Jackson and Curt Cobain.
I have nothing against either, but they defined a different genre of music (pop and grunge)

Maybe drop Madonna, for the same reason. You could Go with Debbie Harry (Blondie) or Wendy O Williams (Plasmatics) with the Mohawk of course

And I personally would love to see Jerry Garcia as a Joker.

I would pay your legal bills if you could make this deck well.

edit: and Hendrix as the Ace of Spades

165
Playing Card Plethora / Re: Still want Ace Fulton's Casino decks?
« on: August 06, 2012, 11:36:51 AM »
You can also get them here
And you don't need to be a member.
http://www.tannens.com/shop//cart.php?m=product_detail&p=9580

Same price as D$D

166
Introduce Yourself / Re: A Complete and Utter Fool
« on: August 06, 2012, 04:11:10 AM »
You say you collect many things, as do I. What are some of the other things you collect?

My collections run from the mundane/ common;
Records
Mugs
Shot glasses
Dead Shows
Board games
Autographs
Hats

Some are collections from my childhood that I just haven't gotten rid of but haven't worked on in years
Comics
Key chains
Scout Patches

Some came with the marriage (or were at least things I wouldn't have dare collected while I was single, but now that I have a wife can say they are hers)
Teddy bears (unusual ones, Star Trek, Pict,Teddy scares, about 30 different Gloomy bears)
Hello Kitty ( ones from specific locations we have visited, places in Asia, especially Japan will release a special Hello Kitty that is themed for the location)

Some may be considered a bit unusual
SciFi toys and Items from the 40s to the 70s
McCoy smiley face pottery
Anime statues

Some may even be considered rare or bizarre
Goshuin (Buddhist temple stamps)
Gas Masks

really this is the bulk but I am sure if I stopped and thought I could name a bunch more


Also you said you have around 250 decks. Out of those decks, which are your favorites, and what are you looking forward too in terms of playing cards?


My favorite decks are
The Tendril deck
sumo deck
Big Lebowski Deck
The one or 2 1940's Aristocrat decks I have left from my Grand parents

I am looking forward to the day my internet goes down, so I can stop buying decks.
Actually the new sneak peak by 4PM designs of the Cthulhu deck looked great
It is probably the next deck I am really excited about.
that and one a friend of mine is working on and I have been asked not to talk about. (ohh, I sound all mysterious now)


167
Design & Development / Re: How Can I do this Without Being Sued?
« on: August 06, 2012, 03:51:46 AM »
One of my ideas was to make a deck around "Rock 'N Roll" (a theme I love), and I wanted to base the court cards of some of the largest rock icons (ex. Having a king based off of Elvis, and a queen based off of Janis Joplin),

How Old are you?

you actually know these names.
you don't want to make a "Rock 'N Roll" deck with Chris Brown or somebody from Nickleback in it !?!

I think it must be raining, because there are tears running down my nose.
there is hope for this next generation yet.

168
Playing Card Plethora / Re: What was your first deck of playing cards?
« on: August 06, 2012, 03:38:42 AM »
I guess for me, it really depends on what you mean by "specialty" deck.

I would say it was , for me, back in 84' I got an Olympic deck set, At the time I thought the mascot was awesome (let's here it for forcing nationalism down children's throats) and I was asking for anything that had the stupid eagle on it.So when I saw this set of cards in a special collectors box, I just had to have it. Much like every other piece of that short lived obsession, I didn't really "have to have it" for that long and sold it in a garage sale a couple years later.

my first "specialty" deck, along the lines that seem to be going on in this thread, was the Tendril deck.
It was truly the most unique and colorful (without being gaudy) deck I had seen at that time, and the tentacle theme reminded me of both my love for the Cthulhu mythos and my time spent in Japan (don't think about that last part too hard.)

As I have said before, missing that deck on kickstarter was an entrance way into the true card collecting community (not the farce of my old collection)
Be it a curse (to my bank account for sure) or a blessing (I would be stretching if I came up with something here)

169
The Conversation Parlor / Jerry at 70
« on: August 04, 2012, 07:33:35 PM »
This weekend (Friday) marks Jerry Garcia's 70th Birthday.
There may be people here at this forum who have had their lives changed by Jerry, the Grateful dead and the music they brought to us.
There may be those of you who could care less
And there may be those of you who have never heard of the man.

But to me...
I will always be thankful for the time I spent listening and learning.

To Jerry Garcia
17 years of gone, but I still hold your voice near, as if it were my own.



170
Playing Card Plethora / Re: Propaganda deck, v2, from T11 - or USPC?
« on: August 04, 2012, 10:12:18 AM »
Y'd the original propaganda deck go a wall anyways?


I really have absolutely no idea what that post means

I personally am a big fan of the Propaganda deck, but I will admit it is purely due to the design.
Gas masks being one of the many things I collect, I am a fan of anything that ties my collections together.
So I pick these up whenever I can find them under $9.00, to use at our card nights.

Though I like these, I certainly would like to see them reprinted with a different finish.
I use these often during our card nights. We break a new deck open each week and I probably choose these about 1 every other month.
I think everyone would let me choose them more often if they were cheaper and they handled better.
My group finds that they have a bit of a sticky feel coming out of the box and that doesn't seem to go away as they break in.
The cards are also a bit stiffer than we are use to playing with.
As I am not a flourisher don't know, perhaps these are attributes that are looked for in a deck.

But despite my critical review of the deck I am looking forward to a V2 and will buy a couple bricks if they handle the same or not

171
  You had to destroy the entire deck?  Saving a few for tricks would have been pretty nice.


No just had to destroy the box and the 9 of diamonds. So now I have an LTD with the ad card as a 9 of diamonds.


That's awesome!  You can use the deck for "destroyed card" and "signature on card" tricks!

I could do that....

If I knew how to do those tricks.

Or any card trick for that matter.

172
(disclaimer - I bought 2 sets of these.... it's called OCD look it up)

I think if they wanted to stick with with the theme They should have them as a set for $20.12.

$12 a deck is overpriced for such a plain deck without custom fronts.

by only printing 1200 of each box they successfully made their 3600 print run seem that much more rare.

But either way I am a sucker for sets (I.E I bought 3 sets of seasons + a signed set + the limited boxed set) and would have probably paid $20.12 a deck, although I would have only bought one set.

I don't however buy the argument most decks sell for $10 this is ONLY $2.00 more... $2.00 adds up, fast.

I am now done with my rambling

(actually it's CDO because the letters are in order. LIKE THEY SHOULD BE)
 

173
Playing Card Plethora / Re: Skulkor Illusion - new mission
« on: July 31, 2012, 05:08:16 PM »
Awesome !! looking forward to it .. it might be the ogama deck , i hope it will be more custom this time


You mean "Ogma" deck, right?  Like dogma without the "D".

He could mean "Ogama" like Obama with a "G" instead of a "B"

174
Randy
I love this deck

And I think it has been amazing watching the slow reveal. I have complemented you on your salesmanship before.

But now that I see the HOPC logo I have a great fear.

Will these be as unreasonably priced as the Olympic decks?

Don't get me wrong, like the olympic decks, I will still buy them. But I was hoping for a brick, if these are >$10 a pop it looks like it would only be 2 of each for me again  :(

175
Playing Card Plethora / Re: Bicycle Coffin Fodder - Coming Soon!
« on: July 31, 2012, 04:47:10 PM »
@ Don
I may be a Fool but I am no Idiot


Just to let you guys know... Those are not what the court cards look like.  I wish they did!

I didn't mean to mislead
BMP had said these were not exactly the court cards.
I just put those up as examples of the artists work.

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