Silly me - showing you stuff on your own site!

Quote from: CardConjurer on November 17, 2014, 09:48:48 PM

As far as #3, I had assumed it was made in the same years as the National Card Co. existed, towards the end of the 1800's. My one question is whether the name National Card Co. was used by the USPC for many years later with the Duplicate Whist brand. We know, obviously, that National Card Co. was used for over a century after the USPC merged just based on the Aladdin Brands. Just want to be sure this box is a pre-USPC National Card Co. piece.

It's not likely that this National Card Co. that created the wooden brick box is the same company that made the Aladdin brand.  There was a recent reprinting of an Aladdin back, the Dome back, that dated back to the beginning of the Aladdin brand - 1880.  This predates the existence of the National Card Co. that made your box by a few years.

I was referring to the fact that the Aladdin Brand decks produced by the USPC were made with the "National Card Co." name still on the boxes and cards. See below.

The first one may be easily explained.  Russell Card Co. in Milltown, NY operated only from 1912-1928, being acquired by USPC in '29.  Much as with the modern Bee and Tally Ho decks, the Russell name was kept in use for many years later.

https://sites.google.com/site/cardconjurer/article/dating/manufacturers#RPC

It doesn't explain the lack of an Ace of Spades code, but not all USPC decks have the codes.  Modern Congress decks usually have pre-printed faces done in bulk, then the faces are run off usually at another time, so because the printing of the face and back can occur in different years, USPC doesn't encode the Aces of Spades on them.

On the 999 Steamboats, the L code isn't just '08 or '29.  It could also be '49, '69, '89 or 2009.  2009 is rather unlikely, but the brand was regularly manufactured into the early 2000s, with at least two reprintings since then, both easily distinguished from the original models.  The best cues to the deck's age you might have there is the Joker as well as the colors and pattern of the back.  I could be wrong, but that Steamboat joker was not the first joker type the brand used.  They've had a number of different designs, including a few that weren't very politically-correct these days.

The last one can be easily explained.  Looking at the same manufacturer list I used for the first deck, I can see that the National Card Co. had offices in both Indianapolis and New York, but it remained independent for only a very short time, from 1886 to 1894, after which time they were merged into USPC.  That box likely was made in that time span.

Thanks Don. That website you linked is actually my website lol.

In reference to #1, the Ace of Spades is coded with the same type of 5 digit code as many of my other pre-USPC Russell decks. This is why the rather late tax stamp confuses me. I would have pegged this deck for a couple decades earlier than the stamp implies. Obvliously there is a chance it got stuck in a warehouse somewhere for a while before being sold, but this is not a simple explanation. I was hoping someone could shed some light on what period the Back No. 8 was produced in? What period was the Russell 5 digit code used in? Did it continue to be used on certain decks for a decade or more after acquisition by the USPC?

In reference to #2, yes I know that the L code was used in many other dates. I have, however narrowed it down to 1908 or 1929 based on context clues. I assume it is 1929, but was hoping someone might be able to tell me more about this color back design and the dates it was in print.

As far as #3, I had assumed it was made in the same years as the National Card Co. existed, towards the end of the 1800's. My one question is whether the name National Card Co. was used by the USPC for many years later with the Duplicate Whist brand. We know, obviously, that National Card Co. was used for over a century after the USPC merged just based on the Aladdin Brands. Just want to be sure this box is a pre-USPC National Card Co. piece.

I think I can shed some light on these decks. All of the information provided below is from memory, so I may have some numbers or details wrong. With that said, look at the attached two photos.

A bit of history:
In the late 1990's and early 2000's, casinos were asking USPC to produce a high quality Bee deck which had a generic logo in lieu of a Casino specific logo. Many different types of decks were made with generic logos on Bee decks. One common version is the decks with bumble bees on the back design. These decks were sold ONLY to Casinos. This practice ended in the mid 2000's, with the remaining sold in the USPC warehouse. In case anyone did not know - the USPC had a warehouse open for many years in Cincinnati which sold decks in bulk to local suppliers.

The Black "Tech Art" decks were produced in 2001 by USPC as test decks for casinos, with the USPC Cube Logo on the back. These decks had jumbo index tech art faces with a regular Bee box. Only 3000 of these decks were produced. Of this, many were destroyed during testing, with the remaining decks sold at the USPC Warehouse. A few locals used to buy and resell decks from the warehouse on eBay throughout the 2000's. A guy named Dave Hofmeister (ebay name pokerstud52) was lucky enough to get his hands on all of the remaining decks of these "Tech Art" Bee decks from the warehouse. He got a good deal on the decks, so he sold these locally in Cincinatti to poker tournaments and local buyers. Hundreds more were destroyed. Many years later he began selling them to a small group of magicians who fell in love with the back design. Personally, I had been waiting for years for the USPC to come out with the Bee back design with white borders. Aside from me, names I can remember of people who bought these decks were Bobby Hasbun, Lonnie Dilan, and possibly Lee Asher. I initially had around 100 decks.

The name "Tech Art Bee" was given by these early deck buyers because of the name "Jumbo Index Tech Art" on the back of the decks. Tech Art is a term that USPC uses for a particular type of face design, so the name "Tech Art Bee" is a bit of a misnomer.

Anyhow, a couple years I told Dave that I knew alot of people would be interested in buying these decks on eBay. At this point he had around 600 decks left. He sold all of his remaining decks on eBay, fairly inexpensively.

In 2005, the USPC produced ANOTHER test deck, with a VERY similar back design. It was a BLUE version of the back design but with Standard Index Bicycle faces, and actually still in a Bee box. I do not know how many of these decks were produced, definitely at least a few thousand. A Cincinnati local named Bill Merz (ebay name merz67) was the guy who was lucky enough to purchase all the decks from the warehouse. He sold all of his decks on eBay over a couple years. At one point I think I had around 4 dozen.

I only have a handful of each deck left. I sold off most of mine over the past 6-8 years. Below are photos distinguishing each deck.






I don't think any of this info has ever been written down, so thanks for the opportunity to put my memory to the test! Let me know if anyone has any comments or questions.

EDIT: fixed Dave's last name.

I store every vintage deck I own in sealed plastic bags. There is a certain size you can buy that fits 4 decks perfectly. I lived in South Florida (very humid) for over 10 years with my collection and have never had a problem. Massive swings in temperature/humidity is the only time I think you'd have a problem.

Below is a link to a video showing the deck.

Let me know what ya'll think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6gPPJRBchY

Unfortunately, you are both incorrect.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271371038172?ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1561.l2649

This is 100% authentic; I've had this deck for over 10 years. Both photos in my auction belong to the same deck of cards. It is the same box. The ace and jokers both have the same back design. I will take a video of the deck, or post more photos if either of you are interested. Let me know soon, as I may ship it out tomorrow.

I've been buying and selling vintage playing cards for over 10 years, I can assure you that I have never sold anything counterfeit or misrepresented an auction.

Lucky bidder, whoever won. Evidently this must be quite a rare deck.

EDIT: As you all know, USPC wasn't completely systematic. Lot's of oddities have existed over the years (i.e. a Leaf Back referred to as an Oak Leaf Back, or a different AOS being used than was typical). Thank you for waiting until after the auction ended to express your opinion.