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Messages - Brian M

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Coming up with a successful playing card project for Kickstarter and delivering a deck that will satisfy the Kickstarter backers is really not that hard.  Success isn't guaranteed, but over the last couple of years, it has been done literally dozens, if not hundreds, of times.  You don't have to be in the U.S.  You don't have to have much artistic talent.  High-school and college kids succeed at it regularly.  A deck of playing cards is not a moon rocket. There is a formula for these projects and it only requires a little bit of paying attention to figure out what that formula is.    Listening to what experienced people in this forum are tryiing to tell you would  be a good start.

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Playing Card Plethora / Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« on: June 28, 2015, 08:24:24 AM »
I'm not maintaining that prices can't be low without triggering concerns. I'm all for low prices. If I had been more precise, and even more verbose than I am already, I should have said that an unduly low price without any clear reason for it might trigger concerns.   

Actually, a low-priced edition will probably trigger concerns anyway, even if the low price is explicable, though for different reasons than I mentioned previously. Because of the typical KS backer's strong preference for highly-limited editions and particular printers, the main avenues for achieving a lower price are pretty much closed off.   Jackson Robinson's Silver Arrow experience is a real object lesson: if he can't make a low-priced edition work on Kickstarter, who can?

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Playing Card Plethora / Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« on: June 27, 2015, 09:39:58 PM »
As regards pricing, what the project costs is the producer's problem not the backers'. 

If the producer ends up with a price which is competitive with the pricing of comparable decks on Kickstarter, it will be of no concern to most backers how much profit the producer is making for himself (or not making for himself).

If the price is much lower than comparable decks, astute backers will be concerned that the producer hasn't done his homework, will eventually realize that he is going to lose money, and will abandon the project.   

If the price is significantly higher than comparable decks, then potential backers will take their money somewhere else.  There are plenty of Kickstarter decks, and most collectors are not so obsessive that they have to collect every deck. Their money will go further backing other decks.  The few collectors who are obsessive, and loaded with money, won't suffice to fund the project -- and anyway, even obsessive people can be aggravated  by an unreasonably high price.

So, my advice to this producer would be: set the pricing to be like the pricing of all the other successful Kickstarter projects.  If that means you can't do the project, then don't.  Probably you will be forced to take this advice in the end whether you want to or not, because the project won't fund if you don't.

But there's a flaw in this.  There are cases where a producer can indeed produce a deck for a much lower price.  When purchasing decks in larger amount, for example, the per-deck costs drop, allowing the producer to charge a lower price, perhaps even below the typical market price for a deck.  And what exactly would that typical market price be in the first place?  Different decks have different costs associated with their production because of things like the features of the deck itself or the costs of shipping (if they're still included, since now many projects don't include shipping).  There'd be no way to compare something like the NOC deck or the Silver edition of the 52 Plus Joker Club deck or the Stranger and Stranger Ultimate deck, if they were offered on Kickstarter.

While it sounds nice on the surface, the suggestion you gave oversimplifies the problem of deck pricing.

Your points are valid, but they don't really contradict my main point.  Unless backers have unlimited funds and unlimited obsession to collect every KS deck, they will tend to allocate the funds they have for buying decks rationally.  A deck which is lot more expensive than comparable decks will need to be "more better" (as my son said at 3) than the other decks on some dimension: superior art, a more well-known artist, a more limited run, shiny embossing on the tuck box, holograms, whatever.  A producer can come up with any story he likes as to why he needs to price his deck higher, but even if the story is true, it isn't relevant, except to satisfy himself and the Internet that he is a nice guy..  Nice guy or not, In the end the backers will purchase the decks that provide the best price/performance.

A deck by an artist with no better a track record than the others, or with a print run which is not more limited, or which has no special "features' needs to be around the same price as the others, too.   If it is the first time out by the artist, less limited, or with a printer thought to be inferior, the deck needs to be cheaper than the others.   Or you better hope that backers of Kickstarter deck projects aren't rational.

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Playing Card Plethora / Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« on: June 27, 2015, 11:46:58 AM »
As regards pricing, what the project costs is the producer's problem not the backers'. 

If the producer ends up with a price which is competitive with the pricing of comparable decks on Kickstarter, it will be of no concern to most backers how much profit the producer is making for himself (or not making for himself).

If the price is much lower than comparable decks, astute backers will be concerned that the producer hasn't done his homework, will eventually realize that he is going to lose money, and will abandon the project.   

If the price is significantly higher than comparable decks, then potential backers will take their money somewhere else.  There are plenty of Kickstarter decks, and most collectors are not so obsessive that they have to collect every deck. Their money will go further backing other decks.  The few collectors who are obsessive, and loaded with money, won't suffice to fund the project -- and anyway, even obsessive people can be aggravated  by an unreasonably high price.

So, my advice to this producer would be: set the pricing to be like the pricing of all the other successful Kickstarter projects.  If that means you can't do the project, then don't.  Probably you will be forced to take this advice in the end whether you want to or not, because the project won't fund if you don't.



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The Conversation Parlor / Re: Theft is always theft!
« on: June 15, 2015, 10:55:52 AM »
Anthony, I agree and sympathize with you.   How somebody in the business of publishing the expressive creations of other people can be so ignorant and/or cavalier on the subject of copyrights is hard to understand.   How he could be so tone-deaf in responding when challenged is even harder to understand.   A simple apology, or even a small payment, would surely have been preferable to the loss of goodwill that Blue Crown will likely now experience.  Playing card collecting is a very small world. 

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The Conversation Parlor / Re: Theft is always theft!
« on: June 15, 2015, 08:38:26 AM »
I was the editor in chief of a big photography web site for a few years, and this is a fairly common situation.  It was not unusual for people posting photographs on our site to have them appropriated by other websites.

Many people either do not understand that photographs are copyrighted, or what that means; or they willfully choose to ignore these laws, thinking that the chances of there being any consequences are most likely remote. It makes no difference whether you call a photograph a "fan photo", and think you are doing the photographer a favor by giving him free advertising -- you simply cannot legally use a photograph which you do not own without the permission of the photographer.   Any more than you can just appropriate deck designs from artists without paying them for permission.

There is no doubt that what bluecrown.com did was a copyright violation, and if they were sued, they would not have a proverbial leg to stand on. The obnoxious response from Alex doesn't make it any more illegal, but it also makes plain that he is far more clueless or negilgent about his legal obligations than anybody doing business ought to be.  I would not trust such a person in anything more than a routine business transaction.  Since Blue Crown just appropriated the photogaph in this case, you have to wonder how many of the photographs on their website were appropriated without permission, justified in Alex's mind by the curious notion that he is giving "free advertising"  to "fans".

All that said, unfortunately it is rather difficult for photographers whose copyrights have been violated to do much about it in most cases.   In the United States, unless the copyright is registered, the courts will award you only "actual damages", as opposed to the far more substantial "statutory damages".   It is is doubtful that the photographer registered the copyright in this case, so he would have to prove the extent to which he was actually damaged.  Actual damages in this case would  probably equate to the fee that the copyright holder could reasonably have charged for the use of the photograph. This would almost certainly not be sufficient to cover attorney's fees in a copyright suit.   Even though it would be an easy case for an attorney, the fees would still be more than the damages recovered.    Many sharp operators count on this when they appropriate photographs which they don't own.

Incidentally, at this point, it seems that the photo has been taken down.  If it weren't, the photographer could use the Digital Millennium Copyright Act to force it to be taken down.

Since Alex's response was arrogant and obnoxious, probably the best course is the one suggested by others in this thread: to stop doing business with Blue Crown.


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Don, do you have a notion of the last year when casino-branded Aristocrat cards would have been printed using the "old" stock?  How far back are we talking?


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Playing Card Plethora / Re: Question on Modern Decks
« on: June 04, 2015, 06:42:18 AM »
Why should anyone feel a need to have their tastes or judgment validated by anyone else but themselves?

It isn't so much that I "feel a need" to have my tastes validated.  I don't buy decks with that as an aim.   I rarely buy decks that are already in demand (I generally can't get decks like that in my target price range anyway), and I don't buy decks based on how much I expect them to be in demand in the future.  I buy what I like.

But it is satisfying when decks I buy become sought after by other collectors.   Not financially rewarding, because I have never sold a deck and don't plan to start.   But psychologically rewarding.   I don['t get the impression that I'm weird in this respect (though anybody who collects playing cards has got to be a bit weird), and I think this is probably an element of collecting for a lot of collectors, irrespective of what is being collected.

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Playing Card Plethora / Re: Question on Modern Decks
« on: June 04, 2015, 06:28:27 AM »
As value goes, sometimes I make a purchase because I know I'll never be able to get that deal again. For example when I got the chance to purchase nearly fifty decks of JAQK playing cards for a little over $225, I knew that I would never have this opportunity again, and since it's my all time favorite deck, I just had to.

So how many of them have you opened and used so far, since you like them so much?




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Playing Card Plethora / Re: Question on Modern Decks
« on: June 03, 2015, 11:24:21 AM »
I would argue that this is a rather limiting explaination. I consider myself a collecter, but a decks value is intrinsically important to me in the decks I add to my collection.

I agree that it is nice to have decks in one's collection which are prized and sought after by other collectors.  That is especially the case when you buy decks because you like them  and they subsequently increase in demand and value.  Not as a matter of speculation and profit, but as a kind of validation of your taste and judgement.   Personally, I almost never buy a deck for more than $10 (exclusive of shipping) or $13 (with shipping).   Some of them are worth quite a bit now, which I have to confess to taking pleasure from.  Many of the decks probably aren't worth any more than I spent on them, which is fine, since I still like them.


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Playing Card Plethora / Re: Question on Modern Decks
« on: June 01, 2015, 05:39:01 PM »
Jackson hasn't stopped designing decks.  If you like his designs, just wait for the next one. Given that he hasn't stopped designing decks, and in fact, comes out with a lot of new decks all the time, which you can buy for $10-20 per deck, you have to wonder why anybody would spend multiples of this for the older decks.  Are his newer decks worse, somehow?   For that matter, if you don't want to wait, and don't want to spend even $10 for one of his decks, just buy one of the Civil War decks he designed for USPC.  $4 each.   

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Playing Card Plethora / Re: Question on Modern Decks
« on: June 01, 2015, 10:07:34 AM »
Rarest would imply ultra low production... and these days, since the rise of Legends Playing Card Co and Expert Playing Card Co, there are quite a lot of decks with short print runs of around 1000.

You probably mean "most difficult to get hold of" when you say rare... and so decks like Zenith (by Encarded) come to mind -- I've not seen one on eBay for ages.

A genuinely rare deck (as in very low production) is the gold/black private reserve Whispering Imps deck -- from what I remember, that had a crazy low print run of something like 150.

Rarity is irrelevant to value, as has been pointed out here many times.   I can get a "llimited" deck of my design printed in quantity 1 by MPC.  The only deck more "rare" than that is one that does not exist at all. But if I am the only person who wants that deck, it is close to worthless.   What *is* relevant is the demand for a deck versus the supply, like any other economic good.   A deck that everybody wants and nobody can get is extremely valuable.   A deck that nobody wants and nobody can get is less than worthless because it takes up space.  Eventually, it will be thrown away, increasing the "rarity" of the remaining examples, with no increase in their value.   Desiring a deck because it is "rare" is irrational.  Desiring a deck because a lot of *other* people desire it is not so irrational, especially if those other people can't get it, and you can.

This seems to be a point lost on a many collectors and sellers -- especially sellers on eBay.


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Playing Card Plethora / Re: Inferus Playing Cards
« on: May 13, 2015, 08:13:25 AM »
I can imagine various reasons for doing faceless cards. Possible  points that the artist might be trying to make.  But the point is not obvious in this case, and it looks like the only aim is to be different or "cool".   The name of the deck, supposedly Latin for "faceless", doesn't help me at all.  The courts are faceless.  So, what?

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If the timing in the month makes any difference to a person, that person is already spending far too much money on playing cards.

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Playing Card Plethora / Re: Isometric Playing Cards
« on: April 30, 2015, 09:22:15 AM »
Agreed, very similar to the Virtuoso decks.  I somewhat prefer the design of the Virts decks, and the Virts decks have the advantage of being "the originals",. rather than "the knockoffs". 

However, knockoffs or not, these Isometric decks are fine. Moreover, if you would like to have this type of deck for XCM, the "Isometric" deck is much more likely to be available than the Virts decks. At $11 per deck, plus not-so-reasonable shipping, they seem a little pricey for what they are, but still a lot cheaper than Virts, which those pesky collectors/hoarders/speculators have made expensive and difficult to obtain.

The "Isometric" decks show that there is really nothing stopping anyone from producing decks designed for XCM, with more-or-less standard faces and simple minimalist or geometric backs.  Despite the Virts' nonsense about "Adaptive Aesthetics", designing decks like this obviously isn't hard.  Of course, other decks, such as the Fat Boy Eats All Day deck, the Fontaine deck, and the plethora of minimalist "casino-style" decks already showed this. 

There is no reason, other than print run sizes, why decks like this shouldn't be cheap and available -- cheaper, in fact, than the price the Isometric deck producer wants for them.  I don't know why they would be of interest to collectors, though, unless you are a collector on a mission to collect every deck made anywhere in the world by anyone.



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These are a little under-stated, don't you think?  The designer should kick it up a notch somehow.  A hologram on the tuck box would be
"a good add", for example.

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Playing Card Plethora / Re: NoMad by theory 11 (04/15/15 3pm EST)
« on: April 15, 2015, 05:32:05 PM »
I have to confess that I don't really understand the "limited" edition thing. 

There seems to be no limit on limited editions. The only thing that would limit them would be for the designers to stop producing new editions and take up quilt-making, or choral singing in Heaven, or something. Or at least they could slow down and do one "limited" edition every year or two. Instead, the successful (not to mention, unsuccessful) designers seem to be producing unending numbers of new deck designs, always in "limited editions", coincidentally limited to more than they can easily sell anyway, with the limit being the minimum number that the printer will print.  Who are they kidding?

If you do somehow miss out on a "limited" edition, just wait. Another will be along in a few days from some other designer.  Limited editions for everybody, including extras for people to resell on e-Bay.  If you really want a particular designer, you probably only have to wait at most half a hear for another "limited" edition from that designer.

When I start seeing limited edition decks of 30, or even 50 examples, then I will regard them as somewhat limited.  But when I see an unending series of new designs in so-called "limited" editions of 2500 or 5000, I have to take the "limited" part with a grain of salt. Or, if I am feeling cynical, as a con.

Meanwhile, I like the look of the Nomad cards, limited or not, and bought a couple of decks.

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