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Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2011, 05:04:43 PM »
 

moonexe

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Are bicycle cards even used in casinos? I thought they had been replaced by plastic cards for the poker tables and I'm pretty sure Bees are used for blackjack...
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Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2011, 05:07:58 PM »
 

Evan

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Are bicycle cards even used in casinos? I thought they had been replaced by plastic cards for the poker tables and I'm pretty sure Bees are used for blackjack...
From what I know, no, they aren't used in casinos.
 

Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2011, 05:09:37 PM »
 

john

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Are bicycle cards even used in casinos? I thought they had been replaced by plastic cards for the poker tables and I'm pretty sure Bees are used for blackjack...

It is the name they gave to the thicker higher quality version of the bicycle stock.
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Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2011, 05:12:07 PM »
 

KPopFever605

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They might not be named to use in casino's, but a few might use them. Usually casinos use decks that have their name on it. That's always why you see Bee deck with names on Casinos on their back design.
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Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2011, 12:28:40 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I've only seen casinos in the US using three different stock types: Bee, Aristocrat and Gemaco Casino.  My knowledge of casinos isn't voluminous, but I don't think there's a single legitimate casino in the country using Bicycle cards or card stock.  Closest you'll find is the Kem decks printed with the Bicycle brand name on them, and those are 100% plastic.

I picked up one of those Kem/Bicycle WSOP deck sets from this year's match - they're kinda cool.  The cards are textured on one side, smooth on the other - first time I've ever seen that on any deck.  Haven't had much time to really fiddle with them yet, but I will soon.

 
no, tallys do not use performance coating. idk what the difference is, but i am sure that someone on here does.
 
 as for the uv600 airflo it WAS an E only stock and finish, but they no longer are able to use it.
 

Tally Ho uses Linoid Finish, their traditional finish since they were first introduced by A. Dougherty over a hundred years ago.  I couldn't tell you what goes into it, but it's not the same as Magic Finish.  And I'd wager that the Linoid Finish formula has been tweaked over the years, if for no other reason than that there were chemicals used in finishes in the past that aren't considered environmentally safe or are simply no longer made.

UV500 stock was known not only for being heavy and sturdy, it also glowed under a blacklight, something most card stocks don't do.  E stopped using it when the price jumped 700% higher from one particular order to the next.  USPC wasn't the culprit - it was the paper mill creating the card stock.  Understandably, E didn't want to suddenly start charging $30 or $40 a deck...

UV500 is the stock, not the finish but yes, they originally had it

Damnit, I always forget that UV500 is the stock. I'll remember that. Does it say that anywhere on the box?

If your deck box reads "UV500 Air-Flow Finish" on the side, it was the original stock.  Most of them now say "Air Cushion", even some of the recent red 1800s that have Performance Coating on them.  I'm guessing that future print runs will also state "Performance Coating".  I guess USPC decided that "Air Cushion" wasn't the only finish name that could be used on a Bicycle deck after all...

The older decks, be they UV500 Air-Flow or Air Cushion, didn't handle very well.  I think it had something to do with the inks used in creating the aged look not playing nice with the coating.  Newer decks made with Perf Coat handle slick as glass, just like any other recent Perf Coat/Magic Finish deck.  To my knowledge, though, they haven't made any 1800 blue decks with Perf Coat yet, or at least that's what they were saying a few months ago.  That may have changed - only someone here like Marcus or Jake would know for certain.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 12:31:49 AM by Good@Sabacc »
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Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2011, 04:06:55 AM »
 

Jin Jian

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is the uv500 better or perfomance coating ?? what is your opion
 

Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2011, 04:37:44 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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is the uv500 better or perfomance coating ?? what is your opion

UV500 is a type of paper.  Performance Coating is a type of finish.  You're trying to compare two totally different things.

If you're asking if Performance Coating is better than or worse than "Air-Flow Finish", the answer is a definite YES.  Performance Coating/Magic Finish is USPC's state-of-the-art card finish.
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Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2011, 07:29:38 AM »
 

Lushbob

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The older decks, be they UV500 Air-Flow or Air Cushion, didn't handle very well.  I think it had something to do with the inks used in creating the aged look not playing nice with the coating.  Newer decks made with Perf Coat handle slick as glass, just like any other recent Perf Coat/Magic Finish deck.  To my knowledge, though, they haven't made any 1800 blue decks with Perf Coat yet, or at least that's what they were saying a few months ago.  That may have changed - only someone here like Marcus or Jake would know for certain.

Ah, okay. Thanks a lot. I'd love to pick up a new Performance Coating 1800 deck. I love the design, but hate the handling. I'll make sure to get one soon.  :)
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Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2011, 07:31:58 AM »
 

Evan

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The older decks, be they UV500 Air-Flow or Air Cushion, didn't handle very well.  I think it had something to do with the inks used in creating the aged look not playing nice with the coating.  Newer decks made with Perf Coat handle slick as glass, just like any other recent Perf Coat/Magic Finish deck.  To my knowledge, though, they haven't made any 1800 blue decks with Perf Coat yet, or at least that's what they were saying a few months ago.  That may have changed - only someone here like Marcus or Jake would know for certain.

Ah, okay. Thanks a lot. I'd love to pick up a new Performance Coating 1800 deck. I love the design, but hate the handling. I'll make sure to get one soon.  :)
The Series 1800 decks are still not good, even with performance coating. I don't recommend them at all, unless you really aren't going to use them much.
 

Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2011, 07:46:11 AM »
 

Lushbob

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The Series 1800 decks are still not good, even with performance coating. I don't recommend them at all, unless you really aren't going to use them much.

Oh, really? Hm. I might just pick up one to see the difference, then.
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Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2011, 08:09:56 AM »
 

loldudex2

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The older decks, be they UV500 Air-Flow or Air Cushion, didn't handle very well.  I think it had something to do with the inks used in creating the aged look not playing nice with the coating.  Newer decks made with Perf Coat handle slick as glass, just like any other recent Perf Coat/Magic Finish deck.  To my knowledge, though, they haven't made any 1800 blue decks with Perf Coat yet, or at least that's what they were saying a few months ago.  That may have changed - only someone here like Marcus or Jake would know for certain.

Ah, okay. Thanks a lot. I'd love to pick up a new Performance Coating 1800 deck. I love the design, but hate the handling. I'll make sure to get one soon.  :)
The Series 1800 decks are still not good, even with performance coating. I don't recommend them at all, unless you really aren't going to use them much.

Really? From what I've heard from Alan Paoletti, they are now great!
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Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2011, 08:25:29 AM »
 

phantom1412

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The red is good now. But the blue isn't.
 

Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2011, 08:47:15 AM »
 

AceGambit

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I didn't know that the 1800s were UV500 finish! They don't feel like it to me. Weird.
UV500 is the stock, not the finish but yes, they originally had it


Are you sure?  I have a deck of red 1800's from like 2008, they are neither AirFlow nor UV500.
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Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2011, 09:43:04 AM »
 

Lushbob

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Are you sure?  I have a deck of red 1800's from like 2008, they are neither AirFlow nor UV500.

Yeah, mine say Air Cushion Finish too. They're from either '08 or '09. But isn't that just Bicycle's odd terms? That you need to say on the box that it's Air Cushion Finish, even if it isn't. Although, I'm not too sure how the Masters or Ghosts managed to get around that. But I think that's the reason why the 1800s say Air Cushion Finish on the side, although I'm not too sure.
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Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2011, 09:55:28 AM »
 

AceGambit

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I know Bicycle has those rules, but I think they are either recent, or just recently enforced.  I got my 1800's with one of my first ever purchases from E.  In that same purchase I got a red Master's which has AirFlow UV-500 written on the box.  I think when E started experimenting with different stocks and finishes on their decks they started naming them.  USPCC either didn't notice or didn't care at the time, but when around the same time they stopped making UV-500 decks, they also stopped printing AirFlow on the boxes. 


For more information on the transition away from UV-500 stock and the AirFlow vs Air Cushion conversation check out their blog post http://blog.ellusionist.com/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-uspc-ellusionist-but-were-afraid-to-ask/
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 09:55:48 AM by AceGambit »
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Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2011, 11:13:38 AM »
 

Lushbob

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For more information on the transition away from UV-500 stock and the AirFlow vs Air Cushion conversation check out their blog post http://blog.ellusionist.com/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-uspc-ellusionist-but-were-afraid-to-ask/

Wow, thanks a lot. I've been looking for something like this for a while.
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Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2011, 05:10:04 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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The Series 1800 decks are still not good, even with performance coating. I don't recommend them at all, unless you really aren't going to use them much.



The new red 1800s are slicker than grease.  They haven't improved the blues yet.  I had both reds, the difference is night and day.


Are you sure?  I have a deck of red 1800's from like 2008, they are neither AirFlow nor UV500.

Yeah, mine say Air Cushion Finish too. They're from either '08 or '09. But isn't that just Bicycle's odd terms? That you need to say on the box that it's Air Cushion Finish, even if it isn't. Although, I'm not too sure how the Masters or Ghosts managed to get around that. But I think that's the reason why the 1800s say Air Cushion Finish on the side, although I'm not too sure.
I know Bicycle has those rules, but I think they are either recent, or just recently enforced.  I got my 1800's with one of my first ever purchases from E.  In that same purchase I got a red Master's which has AirFlow UV-500 written on the box.  I think when E started experimenting with different stocks and finishes on their decks they started naming them.  USPCC either didn't notice or didn't care at the time, but when around the same time they stopped making UV-500 decks, they also stopped printing AirFlow on the boxes. 


For more information on the transition away from UV-500 stock and the AirFlow vs Air Cushion conversation check out their blog post http://blog.ellusionist.com/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-uspc-ellusionist-but-were-afraid-to-ask/


The Air-Flow thing went hand in hand with the UV500 stock.  When they switched out the UV500, it started being labeled Air Cushion, and that's what it was.  The first Performance Coating deck they released was the Gold Arcane, and it was still labeled Air Cushion.  The whole "Air Cushion only on a Bicycle deck" was pretty recent, around the same time as the end of the UV500 stock, but it appears that USPC's lawyers finally went and had that operation to remove the sticks out of the asses, since we're seeing Perf Coat on reprints of old E Bikes and Magic Finish on other new custom Bikes.
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Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2011, 01:06:50 AM »
 

moonexe

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I'm thinking they haven't upgraded the blue ones yet because they have too much leftover stock... People always seem to prefer red bikes for some reason.

Blue needs more love :-\
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Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2011, 02:15:32 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I'm thinking they haven't upgraded the blue ones yet because they have too much leftover stock... People always seem to prefer red bikes for some reason.

Blue needs more love :-\

Most special magic decks come in two colors, but many don't.  It's cheaper to make only one color, and for most of those decks, the default is red Rider Back.  The Ultragaff deck is a prime example of this.  So for anyone wanting to do a series of tricks with some deck swaps and other stunts, the red Series 1800 would end up the more popular choice, especially if someone wanted to use a double backer to create an "aged card" effect with an 1800 card swapped into a standard Bike deck.

BTW: I can't be the only person who noticed that the Series 1800 deck is a one-way back?  And that it's the only one-way back I've ever seen that when the backs are all in the same alignment, the fronts are in mixed alignment?  If I needed a one-way back for regular use, that might be the one I'd choose.  Well, maybe a Phoenix deck, too - or perhaps a marked Phoenix deck...
:)

Only gaffed Bike deck I've seen only in blue is the Ontology Project, available on the D&D site with an accompanying book explaining the multiple miracles the deck is reputedly capable of.  I've been thinking of checking it out myself but I've been really busting the bank this Christmas season - I must have spent well over a grand at E alone...and only a small amount of that on cards!
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Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2011, 02:34:48 AM »
 

moonexe

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My total for the past two weeks is 275$, those holiday deals were too good to pass... ::)

By the way, you just made me realize the practicality of a subtle one-way back for magic... I had never thought of it before. And by mixed alignment, you mean some faces have the weathering reversed?
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Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2011, 03:23:44 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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By the way, you just made me realize the practicality of a subtle one-way back for magic... I had never thought of it before. And by mixed alignment, you mean some faces have the weathering reversed?

The backs are done in an identical, asymmetrical pattern.  Granted.

Most decks done with an asymmetrical pattern have all of the faces oriented in alignment with the backs.  This way, say for example you're holding the deck vertically in your hand - when all the backs are oriented right-side-up, the fronts will also be oriented right-side-up.  Some cards have directional indicators built into their pip pattern - the ones that don't you can usually tell by the nearly-universal off-center cut.  (The level of precision to print all the faces on the exact same spots as all the backs is extremely difficult, so when a deck is center-cut to the back pattern, the faces will usually end up slightly off-center.)  This means that a sharp observer might notice the card faces are all oriented the same way with at most just the chosen card oriented the opposing way, from which he or she might deduce that you're using a one-way deck.

With the Series 1800 decks, assuming you're holding the deck the same way as before, when all the backs are oriented right-side-up, only about half of the faces will be right-side-up, leaving the rest turned upside-down.  This makes it harder to tell from the faces if the deck indeed has a one-way pattern.  The mix appears to be fairly random, not following a pattern - my guess would be that the card sheet back was printed with the card backs oriented one way on the left and the opposing way on the right rather than the same way for the entire back of the sheet.

A subtle one-way deck can be a powerful and useful tool for magicians to use, and makes for a nice backup in case you screw up a trick, giving you a way to still find the card (unless they're dropped or shuffled incorrectly).

A partial listing of all known recent-issue subtle one-way deck designs:
Bicycle Karnival - from original to Dead Eyes
Bicycle Guardians
Bicycle Series 1800
Phoenix "Phoenix Back", regular and marked decks, all formats.
Bicycle Gargoyles (and pretty much all the other Diavoli decks other than the Bikes in colored Rider Backs).
Split Spades Bee and Tally-Ho decks - I suspect it was a printing accident since it was removed for the SS Lions.
ANY stripper deck, except for ones that are professionally cut with an extremely shallow edge.  I have a few of these shallow-cut decks, and they're nigh impossible to detect, good enough to fool a magician.

I'm sure there's more but my brain is hanging up the "CLOSED" sign for the night...
 ;)
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Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2011, 03:44:22 AM »
 

moonexe

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Vortex also has a one-way back that is pretty hard to find unless you know exactly what you're looking for.

Oh well, let's just hope they eventually do run out and have to reprint the blue 1800s... I don't do magic, and I'm not gonna buy red ones just for the finish. It's not like it's the only deck with performance coating. Artifice, here I come. ::)
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Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2011, 06:03:36 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Every deck and its cousin is coming out with Magic Finish, Performance Coating or Premium Finish these days - all three names for the same product.  So yeah, you have choices!
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Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2011, 09:56:00 AM »
 

AceGambit

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... a sharp observer might notice the card faces are all oriented the same way with at most just the chosen card oriented the opposing way, from which he or she might deduce that you're using a one-way deck.


You think so?  I've been doing a trick for years that relies on the detail of bikes having a thicker border on one side.  No one has ever picked up on it, I feel like a marked deck, someone might notice, but that kind of subtlety, only a magician would pick up on that. (of course your performance must match your execution)
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Re: More Performance Coating
« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2011, 12:23:26 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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... a sharp observer might notice the card faces are all oriented the same way with at most just the chosen card oriented the opposing way, from which he or she might deduce that you're using a one-way deck.


You think so?  I've been doing a trick for years that relies on the detail of bikes having a thicker border on one side.  No one has ever picked up on it, I feel like a marked deck, someone might notice, but that kind of subtlety, only a magician would pick up on that. (of course your performance must match your execution)


As I said, a SHARP observer.  Say, a card sharp.  Or a magician!  Someone insanely good with observation and details.  They're rare, but they do exist.
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