Conjuring Arts Decks - Pre-2012

[zincy7]

I'm a magician that loves playing cards. They're some of my favorite things to use when doing magic, and there's often something about a great deck of cards that makes you want to practice and use them that's indescribable.

Yet, today's market doesn't offer that quality you once had in the days of Vernon and Miller.

Which is why I'm so curious as to why Conjuring Arts stopped making decks through USPCC.

Red, Green, Black Acorn Backs, with the choice of Cambric and Ivory (my personal favorite being Ivory), along with amazing cards like the Erdnase 216s, Professional Bicycles, and the original Skull & Bones, Conjuring Arts was a powerhouse in pushing out great decks. Bill Kalush was a monster with his releases.

So why did they stop? Those decks were incredible. The Professional Bikes makes sense, as Richard Turner took over that market with a cheaper deck, but those other decks were great. I'm sure they could have done more runs of those decks and they would have sold out. Even decks like the Exquisite Bolds were groundbreaking when they came out.

I know that CA works a lot with ECC and Legends, and a lot of their new decks are great (lookin at you Superior Brand), but those old decks.....I miss them.

Anybody else feel the same way? Anyone know what happened? Thanks ahead of time.

[Don Boyer]

Conjuring Arts owns Expert PCC.  They got into the playing card business themselves.

The trigger for this move was the Skull and Bones design.  Bill discovered the deck back from a deck that was over a hundred years old, created by USPC in their early days.  It was so old, no one at USPC remembered it was one of their designs, but that's unfortunately all too common over there - the company's changed hands too many times and its owners were always more focused on its profits than its history.  He tweaked and cleaned the design for his Bicycle Professional Skull and Bones deck release - and some months later, USPC simply took his cleaned-up design and repeated it in their more-cheaply made Bicycle Skull deck, doing so presumably on the assumption that it was a USPC design in the first place so they "owned" it, even though it was way past the expiration of its copyright date and Kalush had the design reworked and cleaned up at his expense, not theirs.

There'd been a few small disagreements that he'd had with USPC in the past which I won't discuss, but this was for him enough reason to decide to stop working with USPC and go into the card business for himself.  I can't imagine that USPC was thrilled - I've heard rumors that there's a whiteboard in someone's office over there that's covered with the names of all the decks that Expert "stole" from USPC over the years that it's been in operation - but if that's how they treat a loyal customer, can you blame him?  He did some research, discovered a printer in Taipei that did high-quality work, sourced high-grade black-core pasteboard from a European company and the rest is history.

He "works" with Legends in that they share the same printing plant in Taipei.  Legends also prints some decks from a plant they discovered on the Chinese mainland, but Expert doesn't use it.  Legends also sources paper for that plant from places Kalush doesn't order from.  CARC sells some Legends decks as well as Expert's own releases and the odd release from other companies now and then, but they no longer do any business with USPC and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[zincy7]

Sorry for such a late reply.

I remember that Skull & Bones deck. The Ivory finish (god help us find some more Ivory in the future) was the first time I had felt a smooth playing card and It was marvelous. I wish I had had more money to invest in buying more, but alas, being 13 has its downside.

Now that I think about it, it makes sense. A lot of the decisions that have been made by the USPCC have been rather atrocious.

Steamboats, Studs, Arrcos, and even Hoyle and Maverick cards are all but lost, too expensive, or just plain crap. Even the stock from Bicycle has suffered, with some brand new decks from Walmart coming out of the box with a click, and edges so rough, I could shave with them.

It's weird. I found an old Rider back in my house from when I was really young, and I noticed the registration was perfect in comparison to the new decks I would buy. And it actually ended up infuriating me because it was the first moment I realized that playing cards were taking a downturn. Then, Conjuring Arts comes out with the tan and green Bee Erdnase Squeezers (I actually liked the blue color that the century old deck had), and then it came out with the Professionals and Acorns and other Erdnase decks, and it felt like some civility had returned to the quality of what playing cards should feel like.

Now hearing of the crap that Bill had to go through, I actually respect his decision. He gave up a lot with those original decks that he produced, and admittedly, I would have liked for him to reproduce another run of Arrco Tahoes, but he's doing his own thing. I'm actually trying to work on a workers design based on the Arrco Tahoe, and I plan on sending it through the EPCC. I love playing cards, and to hear that someone like Bill Kalush took a stand for us is really encouraging.

[Eddie Hughlett]

Zincy7,

EPCC has a couple new finishes you might like. They are called Stud and JN. They are very comparable to original Studs and Jerry's Nuggets. In fact I can't tell the difference in a side by side comparison of the JN and an original JNugg deck. I am very impressed and have a hard time setting them down. There were only 300 of each offered for only a day or so a couple weekends back and they are no longer available,  but I'd bet they will show up in less exclusive numbers pretty soon.

[zincy7]

DANG IT!!!

Thanks for the response Eddie. I actually saw a post on here a few hours ago on the Stud and JN stocks, and I was kind of sad to find out they're not out there currently on the market. I really like the fact that the Studs and JNs are getting some justice in the modern era, and the fact that EPCC is doing it means its gonna be top grade stuff.

I have a few questions tho, especially considering you've got some experience with the stocks.

1) What's your current opinion on the EPCC vs USPCC debate (ie which one do you really think puts out the best quality material)? I hear a lot of people saying that the Turner Gold Seal's are the best cards you can get for the cheapest, and while that may be true for now, I think EPCC's attention to detail is starting to edge out for me.

2) With the Stud stock, how close is it to the feel of the original studs? And are designs currently being accepted to print on those stocks?

3) How's the durability on these decks? I know that everyone talks about how long the JNs would last (and even get better) over time, and I think it's a factor that I would take into account, especially with how quick I go through Bikes.

4) Are the designs for future decks getting revamped? Are they sticking to the Superior back design? I wasn't the biggest fan of the design, personally, as I think the border thickness was too small and the swirls of the design to be too simple. I think the benefit of the USPCC is that they've had generations of card designs come and go, and they've had time to adjust to iconic designs. It's why I love the Steamboats and Arrco Tahoes and US. Reg.

5) Is there a way to sign up for news on when new decks like this would come out?

thank you again

[Eddie Hughlett]

1) What's your current opinion on the EPCC vs USPCC debate (ie which one do you really think puts out the best quality material)? I hear a lot of people saying that the Turner Gold Seal's are the best cards you can get for the cheapest, and while that may be true for now, I think EPCC's attention to detail is starting to edge out for me.

Gold Seals are still the best value. Readily available for about $5/deck. The EPCC Samples were $15 if I remember correctly. The main difference is Gold Seals are Riderbacks and you get the choice of Blue or Red. EPCC is not.

2) With the Stud stock, how close is it to the feel of the original studs? And are designs currently being accepted to print on those stocks?

I don't have any Studs currently, but have had dozens in the past. The Stud finish is close to what I remember Studs to be. Mr. Kalush will have to answer the printing question. I have no idea.

3) How's the durability on these decks?

Mine are holding up very well, but I've not shuffled them but a couple weeks.

4) Are the designs for future decks getting revamped? Are they sticking to the Superior back design? I wasn't the biggest fan of the design, personally, as I think the border thickness was too small and the swirls of the design to be too simple. I think the benefit of the USPCC is that they've had generations of card designs come and go, and they've had time to adjust to iconic designs. It's why I love the Steamboats and Arrco Tahoes and US. Reg.

Same as before. Have to ask Mr. Kalush.

5) Is there a way to sign up for news on when new decks like this would come out?

I got an email saying they were available. I think they got my email from a previous purchase.

Good luck and I hope that helps,

-eh

[Don Boyer]

Now hearing of the crap that Bill had to go through, I actually respect his decision. He gave up a lot with those original decks that he produced, and admittedly, I would have liked for him to reproduce another run of Arrco Tahoes, but he's doing his own thing. I'm actually trying to work on a workers design based on the Arrco Tahoe, and I plan on sending it through the EPCC. I love playing cards, and to hear that someone like Bill Kalush took a stand for us is really encouraging.

Well, be careful that you aren't mimicking the original design too closely.  The Tahoes may be young enough that they're still protected under copyright by their current owner, USPC - they bought Arrco lock, stock and barrel a few decades ago.  In addition, they've also been trying to trademark a lot of their older designs.  While copyrights do eventually expire (as they have on a lot of USPC's older designs), trademarks can be renewed ad infinitum as long as they aren't permitted to expire nor are "diluted" by look-alike designs on the market.  It's why USPC no longer makes factory-printed marked decks, or any magician's gaff cards with modified backs, Aces of Spades or Jokers based on their classic designs - they'll gladly allow you to substitute their classic models with your own designs or generic designs, which you can modify to your heart's content.

[zincy7]

Would Bill and the team at EPCC be able to tell me if my design is too close in similarity? I have the basic shapes of the cards laid out, and while the back is beautiful, I want to follow those patterns, but make it my own. Personally, I just want to make a deck of cards that people would love to use as a set of workers, and while I think Superiors are great, they don't have that "IT" factor that bikes, tally's, Tahoes, and Studs have.

Also Don, thank you for always responding. It's one of the best things to actually get to talk to someone of your caliber.

[Don Boyer]

Would Bill and the team at EPCC be able to tell me if my design is too close in similarity? I have the basic shapes of the cards laid out, and while the back is beautiful, I want to follow those patterns, but make it my own. Personally, I just want to make a deck of cards that people would love to use as a set of workers, and while I think Superiors are great, they don't have that "IT" factor that bikes, tally's, Tahoes, and Studs have.

Also Don, thank you for always responding. It's one of the best things to actually get to talk to someone of your caliber.

Thanks for the compliment.

I'm sure Mr. Kalush will offer his input if you ask - he's very unlikely to be printing something for you that runs afoul of trademarks or copyrights.  However, he's not a lawyer, and even if your lawyer says, "it's fine," if USPC's lawyers say "no, it's not," the cost of a lawsuit defense can cripple or destroy a project.

To be safe, make something "inspired by" Tahoes, but not too close to them, either.  I'd also suggest checking with Expert to see if they can offer you a modern or vintage standard face.  I know USPC's standard faces are too generic to be copyrightable or trademarked, but I don't know if their Arrco faces fall into the same category or not - I'm not a legal expert.  By using Expert's faces, you get something easily recognized and legally safe - just make custom Aces and Jokers.

Think in terms of what face style you want to offer.  A modern deck will be more easily "identifiable" to your worker's audience, inspiring them to think, "Those are just like the ones we use back home."  But a slightly more vintage look might give you a more distinctive look while taking away only a little from the identification factor.  For example, some older decks have smaller indices, larger pips, an older look to the court cards with a little more detail and complexity, etc.

For a performing deck, you might also go for a better visibility factor - I've seen a really cool deck from Phoenix called Phoenix Parlor Cards.  They're an in-between size between a jumbo card and a poker card, and the art is a unique mix - standard art in the card faces, but jumbo-sized indices for better visibility from the far side of the audience.  Now, some people might find cards that big to be a bit too much, but maybe with a little tweaking of a poker-sized card style, you could develop a card face that takes advantage of that type of appearance dynamic - slightly-reduced artwork on the cards, slightly-increased index size.

Alternately, if you just amped up the vintage factor, going in the other direction, with old-school big pips and tiny indices might be more to your preference.  Just be aware you have some interesting style choices to consider!