Which playing card producer is the best for a collectors deck

[Medicus]

Hi,
I am preparing a kickstarter campaign for a historical deck of playing cards and I was wondering about the production and logistic aspects. I have read many articles on the subject, this forum here is a huge help for all who want to start such projects and especially this post was an amazing big help http://www.playingcardforum.com/index.php?topic=10265.0, but I am still a bit confused.

I assume that my deck is for collectors and not poker players and magicians. Therefore handling of the cards is not as important as the feel of the card and the look of the art on it. Price is always important but the higher the art quality the less important this becomes. These are at least my assumptions right now (feel free to correct them if you think differently, I am here to learn). Now as I see it there are just a few differences in the producers but which seem to have a huge impact:

Cut: So far I only could find a huge difference in laser and non laser cuts. And it seems MPC is the only company with laser cut and that those cards are terrible when it comes to special shuffle techniques. Here is a youtube video where a pro, at least for me he seems very good at this(and he does wonderful deck reviews), can`t fancy shuffle those cards because of their laser cut:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGy7G1DXqrM. So MPC seems bad for magician and poker player customers which are both not my target clients.

Stock: MPC shows how thicker stock lets less light through. This seems important to me for better contrast on each card. Also thicker cards feel heavier and so are probably perceived more valuable by the collector and it also might affect the livetime of a card. To sum this up, thicker paper seems better to me. But most producer also seem to offer a good range here.Only disadvantage of thicker stock is that magician and poker player seem to dislike it for they need to get used to.

Texture and Finish: These are different things but seem to me that they serve mainly the same purpose. Both decide how slippery a card will be. But I believe that a texture also could add a quality feeling to a historical card by giving it a less perfect smooth surface and therefore appear "older". For the finish it seems that this is a chemical put on the card to protect it. Not sure if that is the only finish technique but some cards get a chemical smell depending on their finish which some people really do not like (I got this from different youtube video comments in those decks). But since the smell will disappear after a while I am not sure how important that is. To sum this up, a rough texture together with a matte finish(no mirror effect) seem the best option for a historical deck.And most producer offer these things.

Fulfillment: Now this has nothing to do with the cards quality but it will drastically increase the price of a deck. So far I have found good producers but many of them do not offer fulfillment services. To make matters worse the transport cost to a fulfillment service are very high. For example 2 different producers estimated for me that when I get 1000 decks with them and they send them to any fulfillment service provider of my chosing that alone could cost me 1000 to 3000$. And then of course we would still have to pay the normal fulfillment costs. When I now consider a 10-20% margin for each deck and estimate that this would make 20 000 to 40 000$ on kickstarter then I am not sure this is a viable project to me anymore. So any producer I am looking for should offer fulfillment services inhouse. So far that seems only the case for MPC and gamblerswarehouse.

So after this very rough check I wonder if my best option would be to produce with MPC or gameblerswarehouse. I would highly appreciate any advice here.

One last thing I was wondering is some of the relationships of these companies. For example gameblerswarehouse produce their own cards inhouse but work together with USPCC and I can order with gamblerswarehouse USPCC produced cards. Also Legends and Expertplayingcards seem to be one and the same company located in Taiwan. But why have 2 names then? I must admit the whole card producing industry seems very confusing to me.

Thanks all
Chris

[Don Boyer]

Wow, there's a lot to cover here...

Handling and feel will be very similar.

Cut is less important if you're targeting collectors over magicians and players.  But like handling, it shouldn't be ignored - cards with terrible handling tend not to be as popular in the first place, thus are of less appeal to collectors.  It really needs a good balance of all the factors that go into the design and manufacture of the cards.

Thickness of the stock is important to some - but people have preferences.  Some prefer thinner, more flexible stocks, some prefer stiffer, more durable stocks.  It's not the thickness of the stock that blocks the light so much as it is the layers the stock is made of.  A quality pasteboard stock has two layers of paper surrounding a layer of adhesive that's been laced with an opacifying agent, typically graphite in a high-grade paper.  That graphite keeps the cards from allowing light to show through.

Texture and finish mean EXACTLY THE SAME THING.  Most people confuse "finish" with what is actually a coating on the cardstock.  Coating is NOT THE SAME as finish.  The quality of a card's coating can determine the slip and feel of the cards to a good degree, but so can the texture.  Embossed cards with a dimpled surface tend to have better glide characteristics than smooth cards made of the same paper, for much the same reasons why a golf ball with dimples will glide better and travel further through the air than a smooth ball of the same size and weight.

I don't understand why the cost of shipping to a fulfillment service is so high.  It should cost no more than it would to have the cards shipped anywhere.  Many card-making companies include shipping in the cost of the contract.  I'm pretty sure that USPC offers free shipping and will drop ship bulk orders to more than one destination.  You should check the details with the company you choose to deal with.  Don't feel that you're limited to only dealing with companies that offer fulfillment services as well as manufacturing.  By the way - you could save significant money (though not time!) if you decided to do the order fulfillment yourself.  Many project creators do it, though it's a time- and labor-intensive job.  It is, however, cheaper than using any fulfillment service.

MPC may or may not be your best option for print work.  They use a digital printing process.  It allows them to offer extremely low print runs and competitive pricing, but it also doesn't offer the same quality as an offset press does when it comes to fine-resolution print work.  As you're looking to recreate an historical deck, you'd do well to look at companies that offer higher quality print work.  They have certainly improved over the years, but they're not quite as good as some of the bigger names in playing cards.

Legends PCC and Expert PCC are NOT the same company.  Legends is headquartered in Hong Kong, Expert is headquartered in New York City.  Both share a high-quality print shop in Taipei where much if not most of their printing is done.  But they also have separate print facilities that they subcontract out to that they don't share as well.  Think of them as friendly competitors - they often refer business back and forth to each other and share resources, but they are not the same company.

[Medicus]

Thank you Don for your detailed reply. I must say there is a lot to learn here for me and you and this forum are a great help.

For the shipping cost: I was wondering too why it would cost so much to ship 1000 decks to another country. But since 2 big companies gave me such numbers I believe them to be right. Add another .5 to 3$ per deck and also have to deal with customs when those decks come from lets say Taiwan, adds a lot to the whole project. Unfortunately MPC seems rather a bad fit for a quality historical deck the more I read about them. So far only gamblers warhouse seems to offer everything in terms of quality and fulfillment service. 

And interesting to hear that Legends and Experts are 2 different companies but when you deal with them it doesn´t appear so.

[Don Boyer]

Thank you Don for your detailed reply. I must say there is a lot to learn here for me and you and this forum are a great help.

For the shipping cost: I was wondering too why it would cost so much to ship 1000 decks to another country. But since 2 big companies gave me such numbers I believe them to be right. Add another .5 to 3$ per deck and also have to deal with customs when those decks come from lets say Taiwan, adds a lot to the whole project. Unfortunately MPC seems rather a bad fit for a quality historical deck the more I read about them. So far only gamblers warhouse seems to offer everything in terms of quality and fulfillment service. 

And interesting to hear that Legends and Experts are 2 different companies but when you deal with them it doesn´t appear so.

Legends is owned by Lawrence Sullivan, a professional magician, and is headquartered in Hong Kong.

Expert is owned by the Conjuring Arts Research Center, a non-profit operated by William Kalush, and has offices in New York City.

When they decided to get into the playing card business, they pooled their knowledge to find the best way to go about it, which is why they share a print facility in common, but it's not the only print facility either company has ever used.

The shipping issue is answered in the question: "to another country."  Shipping 1000 decks domestically has its challenges - the decks plus packaging weigh approximately 170-180 pounds (between 77-82 kg).  Shipping internationally is where the great expense comes in, especially depending on the country to which you are shipping.  Some countries are outrageously expensive to ship to for even small, light packages, never mind something so heavy, and you're right about things like Customs fees - there are even some countries that prohibit the importation of playing cards altogether as a means by which to protect their domestic playing card industry.

I have no idea what country you're in, but it might make sense to allow an order fulfillment center to handle the shipping for you, making your overall costs potentially lower.  Legends did introduce a fulfillment service and Expert has been known to use Gambler's Warehouse to do their order fulfillment for them and to ship direct from their factory as well.  You might want to inquire with them about fulfillment services if you should decide to use either company for manufacturing your deck.