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USPC Steampunk decks?

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Re: USPC Steampunk decks?
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2012, 02:04:48 AM »
 

Evan

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Theory11 actually made the bronze paper used on the box so that is different than the USPCC one
 

Re: USPC Steampunk decks?
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2012, 02:42:50 AM »
 

Derek

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Basically its an uglier, simpler, and less expensive version?


I tend to think both are ugly. Aside from the box of course..  :-[
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Re: USPC Steampunk decks?
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2012, 02:44:29 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Basically its an uglier, simpler, and less expensive version?


I tend to think both are ugly. Aside from the box of course..  :-[

OK, you play with the box.  I'll play with the cards.  Sounds fair to me!   :o
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Re: USPC Steampunk decks?
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2012, 04:47:41 PM »
 

danktrees

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When did USPC release their own version of Propagandas?  Guardians I've seen; I have all three versions - two from T11, one from USPC.  I also noticed that BMPokerWorld recently got Propaganda back in stock at a mere $9.95 a deck.  T11 did say there was a Propaganda V2 coming out, but I haven't heard anything about it actually releasing yet, unless those BMPW decks are the new release...


well theres two separate editions that ive found.
http://www.the1eyedjack.com/servlet/the-495/Propaganda-deck/Detail
http://www.the1eyedjack.com/servlet/the-203/Theory-11/Detail

from what i gather, one is from ohio and has tally ho stock while the other is from kentucky. i dont believe theory11 sold the kentucky ones so i just considered it as a second verison since they're different.
 

Re: USPC Steampunk decks?
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2012, 06:31:09 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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When did USPC release their own version of Propagandas?  Guardians I've seen; I have all three versions - two from T11, one from USPC.  I also noticed that BMPokerWorld recently got Propaganda back in stock at a mere $9.95 a deck.  T11 did say there was a Propaganda V2 coming out, but I haven't heard anything about it actually releasing yet, unless those BMPW decks are the new release...


well theres two separate editions that ive found.
http://www.the1eyedjack.com/servlet/the-495/Propaganda-deck/Detail
http://www.the1eyedjack.com/servlet/the-203/Theory-11/Detail

from what i gather, one is from ohio and has tally ho stock while the other is from kentucky. i dont believe theory11 sold the kentucky ones so i just considered it as a second verison since they're different.


I'm going to continue this in a separate thread covering the Props, if you don't mind - it'll keep this thread on topic.
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Re: USPC Steampunk decks?
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2012, 10:22:26 PM »
 

Evan

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the1eyedjack just tweeted that they are now selling the USPCC Steampunk decks on they're site
 

Re: USPC Steampunk decks?
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2012, 10:54:07 PM »
 

Masque

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First off, this is going to continue to happen. The USPC gets Theory11's design team basically for free, and Theory11 gets their ad card in the hands of thousands of folks who have no idea right now that Theory11 even exists. It's possible that Theory11 specified that the custom court colors were to be "theirs only" as part of the deal, or that USPC decided that detail wasn't going to sell enough extra cards to justify the more expensive ink. You can rail against it, but this kind of thing will keep happening.

Now, here are several reasons why it's a great thing, yellow face cards or not:

  • The USPC version of the deck fits nicely in the Theory 11 box, for those of you who like those boxes*. 
  • Suddenly you can use your Steampunk deck for tear'n'restore tricks, cheaply!
  • USPC mainstream production means Amazon is likely to carry them.  If that happens and you have a Prime membership, you're likely to get these for three bucks a deck including shipping. (Guardians are $2.63/deck right now. Robocycle was $3.63 for a few days in late December. It'll happen if they carry Steampunk as well. That means you'll be able to get 3-4 decks from Amazon for the price of what -one- deck would cost from most other places. Man, I wish T11, E and D&D used Amazon's fulfillment...)

To my mind the important question is whether the stock and finish are the same. If they're the same between the two versions, then they seem like a reasonable alternative. And think of the cool color-changes you can do with two different colorations of the same card.  C'mon guys, more variety means more tools.




* And that's a whole other thread - you know what happens to that nice debossing when you put the box in your Porper clip? It comes out looking a whole lot more like the USPC version of the box. Squeezing makes things flatter, kids!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 10:54:53 PM by Masque »
 

Re: USPC Steampunk decks?
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2012, 11:02:35 PM »
 

Frost

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so that's why i got a fake version of the guardians dek
 

Re: USPC Steampunk decks?
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2012, 11:09:59 PM »
 

dmbaggs

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Yeah Masque makes some good points. I don't mind the two versions because I'm not a hardcore collector who has to have every version!! I like that there is a cheaper option, especially with all the decks coming out. It makes these decks much more accessible which is nice in a day and age of limited decks.


Also the business aspect to it is incredible for T11. Honestly this partnership was a game changer!
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Re: USPC Steampunk decks?
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2012, 11:22:24 PM »
 

Masque

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Also the business aspect to it is incredible for T11. Honestly this partnership was a game changer!
Actually more of a continuation of the game. The USPC version of Guardians includes the same T11 ad card that the T11 version does! 


*Edit: scratch that, looks like this is an ad card specific to the USPC Guardians. Also of note - after the USPC Guardians were released, T11 released the V2 Guardians which were the same cards… but with a nicely embossed box! Sound familiar? 



« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 11:27:49 PM by Masque »
 

Re: USPC Steampunk decks?
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2012, 11:33:59 PM »
 

Evan

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so that's why i got a fake version of the guardians dek
Fake? No, its a USPCC reprint but definitely not a fake
 

Re: USPC Steampunk decks?
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2012, 11:42:57 PM »
 

Aaron

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In regards to the USPCC Guardians I acctually like those, the add cards have a T11 add card and a quick little trick on the other one which is cool and unique.
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Re: USPC Steampunk decks?
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2012, 12:59:53 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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The entire T11/USPC partnership is beneficial to everyone involved, including the customers.  Who DOESN'T want more deck variety, or to be able to buy great designs cheaply enough to make them practically disposable?  Who thinks the new version of bicyclecards.com looks a good deal better than the old one (though it still lacks in information and functionality).

I'm just kind of shocked that the 800-pound gorilla of the market, Ellusionist, didn't cut such a deal before T11.  I'd think they were a perfect fit - though they may have felt it was better to keep their designs exclusive to their company instead of letting USPC get a hold of them for reprints in their own brand name.  So far, all the "USPC-ized" T11 decks have "Bicycle" in the name, while E stopped using the Bicycle brand name from Arcane going forward (just over a year ago, it would seem).

In time, it wouldn't surprise me to see some more phasing out of the numerous Bicycle "black" decks they made, since they're less popular now, and they'd keep the Masters (and perhaps the Series 1800, and maybe not the Shadow Masters) out of the basic utility of both deck lines.  Red and Blue Rider backs haven't gone out of style for nearly 125 years now...
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 01:00:31 AM by Good@Sabacc »
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Re: USPC Steampunk decks?
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2012, 01:17:42 AM »
 

xela

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The entire T11/USPC partnership is beneficial to everyone involved, including the customers.  Who DOESN'T want more deck variety, or to be able to buy great designs cheaply enough to make them practically disposable?  Who thinks the new version of bicyclecards.com looks a good deal better than the old one (though it still lacks in information and functionality).

I'm just kind of shocked that the 800-pound gorilla of the market, Ellusionist, didn't cut such a deal before T11.  I'd think they were a perfect fit - though they may have felt it was better to keep their designs exclusive to their company instead of letting USPC get a hold of them for reprints in their own brand name.  So far, all the "USPC-ized" T11 decks have "Bicycle" in the name, while E stopped using the Bicycle brand name from Arcane going forward (just over a year ago, it would seem).

In time, it wouldn't surprise me to see some more phasing out of the numerous Bicycle "black" decks they made, since they're less popular now, and they'd keep the Masters (and perhaps the Series 1800, and maybe not the Shadow Masters) out of the basic utility of both deck lines.  Red and Blue Rider backs haven't gone out of style for nearly 125 years now...

The partnership is not better for anyone except Theory11 and USPCC, actually. First of all, for us producers, the fact that our designs and products are essentially at the hands of a competitor is insane. This is basically a monopoly creating a trust. It's offensive that T11 has any sway at all with the company that I am a client of. Basically, a lot of their recent policies seem to reflect T11's agendas. Furthermore, custom deck makers are now competing directly with the USPCC itself, except instead of seeing the USPCC throw out gimmicky decks, they are having them designed by whoever T11 finds to make them, and T11 profits from the sales. Basically, our competition is branded as the official brand of USPCC, which leads many people to (falsely) think their cards are of sound quality. This is a total farce, since their designs are clearly rushed and lack major elements like theme relevance and depth. Since 100% of USPCC decks are of great handling quality, there really is no basis for the idea that T11 makes "better" decks.

Second of all, it's terrible for collectors. Two different editions of the same deck? Things are getting more complicated than they need to be very quickly.

I guess the plus side is there for flourishers who are strapped for cash, since it seems you will be able to pick up luxury decks at local stores for relatively cheap prices. However, I would argue that this is terrible for the card economy.

When you start creating luxury products for the masses, suddenly they are not luxury anymore. What happens next? Prices plummet, which is what we are seeing right now. Why shell out $40 for a "luxury" deck when you can get something that is just as good at your local supermarket? Demand drops, and the people that suffer are those of us that are actually invested in the card community.

Of course, the last part may be reading into the situation a bit much, but if anything is taken away from this post, it's the fact that the partnership is disgusting and the #1 reason I am looking to switch printers, and it's also going to be sad to see people using decks like the Steampunk in performances due to how easily it's found.

And yes, the Monachs and the Steampunks are abominations. One is over hyped, the other has nothing to do with its theme and is akin to calling your television a banana popsicle.
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Re: USPC Steampunk decks?
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2012, 01:26:47 AM »
 

Frost

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IF u switch printers who else will make them as good as the USPC ??
 

Re: USPC Steampunk decks?
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2012, 02:02:07 AM »
 

xela

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IF u switch printers who else will make them as good as the USPC ??
Gemaco and Cartamundi seem to be the only decent national brands.
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Re: USPC Steampunk decks?
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2012, 02:07:49 AM »
 

Aaron

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I think you should stick with USPCC, they offer the highest quality and when I go to a site and find a new deck of cards, if it isn't a USPCC deck I feel it isn't as good of quality, I have a couple different gemaco decks that handle like garbage but I have never handled the cartamundi thing you are talking about
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Re: USPC Steampunk decks?
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2012, 02:10:59 AM »
 

dmbaggs

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It's interesting to see your view on the subject Alex. You being a card producer and having a direct relationship with USPCC is very different than me as a consumer. I know we are connected in the big picture, but you may see some of the effects of the situation differently.


@Aaron I don't think there really is an easier option for Alex. USPCC offers the best quality and they have a good reputation when it comes to quality.


@Alex have you ever thought about trying a different company? Even though USPCC offers "the best there is to offer"
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Re: USPC Steampunk decks?
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2012, 02:26:55 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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The entire T11/USPC partnership is beneficial to everyone involved, including the customers.  Who DOESN'T want more deck variety, or to be able to buy great designs cheaply enough to make them practically disposable?  Who thinks the new version of bicyclecards.com looks a good deal better than the old one (though it still lacks in information and functionality).

I'm just kind of shocked that the 800-pound gorilla of the market, Ellusionist, didn't cut such a deal before T11.  I'd think they were a perfect fit - though they may have felt it was better to keep their designs exclusive to their company instead of letting USPC get a hold of them for reprints in their own brand name.  So far, all the "USPC-ized" T11 decks have "Bicycle" in the name, while E stopped using the Bicycle brand name from Arcane going forward (just over a year ago, it would seem).

In time, it wouldn't surprise me to see some more phasing out of the numerous Bicycle "black" decks they made, since they're less popular now, and they'd keep the Masters (and perhaps the Series 1800, and maybe not the Shadow Masters) out of the basic utility of both deck lines.  Red and Blue Rider backs haven't gone out of style for nearly 125 years now...

The partnership is not better for anyone except Theory11 and USPCC, actually. First of all, for us producers, the fact that our designs and products are essentially at the hands of a competitor is insane. This is basically a monopoly creating a trust. It's offensive that T11 has any sway at all with the company that I am a client of. Basically, a lot of their recent policies seem to reflect T11's agendas. Furthermore, custom deck makers are now competing directly with the USPCC itself, except instead of seeing the USPCC throw out gimmicky decks, they are having them designed by whoever T11 finds to make them, and T11 profits from the sales. Basically, our competition is branded as the official brand of USPCC, which leads many people to (falsely) think their cards are of sound quality. This is a total farce, since their designs are clearly rushed and lack major elements like theme relevance and depth. Since 100% of USPCC decks are of great handling quality, there really is no basis for the idea that T11 makes "better" decks.

Second of all, it's terrible for collectors. Two different editions of the same deck? Things are getting more complicated than they need to be very quickly.

I guess the plus side is there for flourishers who are strapped for cash, since it seems you will be able to pick up luxury decks at local stores for relatively cheap prices. However, I would argue that this is terrible for the card economy.

When you start creating luxury products for the masses, suddenly they are not luxury anymore. What happens next? Prices plummet, which is what we are seeing right now. Why shell out $40 for a "luxury" deck when you can get something that is just as good at your local supermarket? Demand drops, and the people that suffer are those of us that are actually invested in the card community.

Of course, the last part may be reading into the situation a bit much, but if anything is taken away from this post, it's the fact that the partnership is disgusting and the #1 reason I am looking to switch printers, and it's also going to be sad to see people using decks like the Steampunk in performances due to how easily it's found.

And yes, the Monachs and the Steampunks are abominations. One is over hyped, the other has nothing to do with its theme and is akin to calling your television a banana popsicle.

OK, you've shown how it can suck, I'll grant you that.  But in the end, I think it was pretty much inevitable, and a sign that the bubble is getting closer and closer to bursting point.  Imagine you're USPC - you offer to make custom decks for companies, they start getting incredibly artistic and creative with it compared to your own "vintage" and "colors" series, and you're seeing them get a larger and larger share of a market you want to be in.  Partner with a custom deck company, any major in the field (like T11) with a raft of deck ideas, and suddenly you are getting a chunk of that share - which as you said, puts them directly in competition with their own customers.

I think, however, that T11 may be steering this in a direction that impacts competition less.  Their first collaboration in playing cards, the Bike Guardians, were practically identical in every way except for the deck box and the ad cards.  With the Steampunk deck, they're adding more differentiation between the "luxury" T11 model and the "standard" USPC release.  The embossing is gone, sure, but so are the custom card colors - and it wouldn't surprise me to find they went for a lower grade of stock or finish as well.  While T11 may be reaping benefits from the partnership, I think they're also trying to be careful not to kill the goose that's laying their golden eggs.  They want a difference in quality to make their product special, better and worth extra.

If I had to guess, the alteration of the strategy likely came when T11 noticed a bit of a drop in Guardians sales after people discovered they could get the same deck, same quality for less as the USPC version.  You want to sell a luxury product, you have to have luxury features that the standard model doesn't have, or else it, too, becomes a standard model, but with a higher price point - in other words, market suicide.  (Maybe they though the fancy box was enough to make it worth more...  Let's hope they learned that lesson!)

@ Aaron, brown_baggs - I talked briefly with Alex on the topic when he was in New York.  I handed him a Gemaco deck that not only looked good but had decent handling to it as well - the1eyedjack sells it, it's the "House of Blues Atlantic City" uncanceled casino deck.  Thing is, Gemaco is yet another subsidiary of USPC, so it would largely depend on just how independently USPC is letting them run their operations - are they basically free to do what they want, like Fournier, or are they in the process of being absorbed into the USPC Borg, like Hoyle and countless others?
 
 Other than that, there's Cartamundi.  I have yet to see a decent-handling paper Cartamundi deck - the Magic Castle decks are shockingly bad, obviously meant for tourist consumption.  But their plastic Ace deck, standard model (jumbo index) sold at Barnes and Noble, has excellent handling properties, better than most plastic decks out there.  The only deck I've seen even close to it in handling/performance made of plastic was the Karnival Death Heads, made by Fournier.  (Though the Death Heads have a crappy, flimsy box for a deck that's supposedly nigh-indestructible.)
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Re: USPC Steampunk decks?
« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2012, 02:30:33 AM »
 

dmbaggs

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@Sabacc I know about those other decks and I have a few from some of the other companies. Seeing how some of this is new I was just wondering how Alex felt about it, which leads back into my question...


Quote
@Alex have you ever thought about trying a different company? Even though USPCC offers "the best there is to offer"
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Re: USPC Steampunk decks?
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2012, 03:01:11 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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@Sabacc I know about those other decks and I have a few from some of the other companies. Seeing how some of this is new I was just wondering how Alex felt about it, which leads back into my question...


Quote
@Alex have you ever thought about trying a different company? Even though USPCC offers "the best there is to offer"

When we met and spoke, he was considering it.  Hadn't made a solid decision, largely due to lack of viable alternatives.
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Re: USPC Steampunk decks?
« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2012, 03:04:39 AM »
 

dmbaggs

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I see...


Alex care to chime in on this matter?  :)
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