807-R-TG…version 2?!

[Masque]

Here's an interesting development.  Today I encountered a deck of Rider Back bikes not in the "Standard" box, but in a regular older-style Rider Back box, and with a 2011 copyright.  The most interesting thing? The bar code isn't the regular 808, but… well, see for yourself.  The deck I found is on the right, next to an older 807-R-TG:

[Aaron]

I got a rider back a few mounths ago and when I opened it it has the new coulored jokers that only came out in 2010 or 2011 (cnt remember which one)

[Masque]

The colored jokers are coming in Standard boxes marked with the 2009 copyright as well, though the brick box containing the colored-joker Standard decks I've seen has been marked ©2010.  I haven't opened this deck yet.

[Aaron]

Ok the coloured jokers were not available in stores where I live in canada until like last January

[Masque]

Makes sense.  No reason to change the box copyright unless the box changes.  I think the 2009 boxes could contain either, with the production date for the colored jokers starting sometime in late 2010.


But whither the new 807 box, mm?

[Aaron]

Makes sense.  No reason to change the box copyright unless the box changes.  I think the 2009 boxes could contain either, with the production date for the colored jokers starting sometime in late 2010.


But whither the new 807 box, mm?

I think they probably made the decks in 2009 but they wernt on shelves in stores for awile after, Stores probaby buy a gross of cards and then sell them and order another gross so the would have to sell off everything they had before they got the new ones.




And I know the 807-R-TG is a print run of decks done by Target from what I have read they may have a thicker stock and they are a kinda rare because they are not readily available. But pretty much they are just bicycle decks Printed in an exclusive run by Target. The colours in the decks are also brighter. As for the 2011 copyright, I have no idea why that is there. I was under the understanding that Riderbacks were not going to be produced in that box design anymore. Can you look and see if they are printed in Cincinatti or Erlanger.

[Masque]

The 807-R-TG was definitely not exclusive to Target.  I've seen them at Fred Meyer as well, for example. 


The new ©2011 box with the 807 bar code was definitely printed in Erlanger.  That should be evident from the photo, showing the two boxes together side by side.


I thought the "Rider Back" box was done as well, but obviously they're going forward with them, at least in some capacity….

[Aaron]

The 807-R-TG was definitely not exclusive to Target.  I've seen them at Fred Meyer as well, for example. 


The new ©2011 box with the 807 bar code was definitely printed in Erlanger.  That should be evident from the photo, showing the two boxes together side by side.


I thought the "Rider Back" box was done as well, but obviously they're going forward with them, at least in some capacity….

ok I had read that the R-TG ment Run Target but I am not sure. And maybe they are going back to the Rider Back box. I read on wikipedia like a year ago that they planned on reprinting riderback decks.

[Masque]

Right - and if that was the plan, why not shift the regular 808 box to the rider back?  Why the separate UPC?  Why the old 807-R-TG UPC?  Perhaps this is transitional, as the 807 was when shifting from OH to KY.  Or perhaps… who knows?  That's why I posted this  -  curiosity...

[Masque]

Edited the original post to more clearly emphasize that the deck I found, and the interest I have, is in the deck on the -right- in the photos above.  I know about the original 807. 

[Aaron]

Edited the original post to more clearly emphasize that the deck I found, and the interest I have, is in the deck on the -right- in the photos above.  I know about the original 807. 

Ok so it apears that your new one is and 807 but not R-TG idk how many of these were printed but where did you get it?

[Lushbob]

Yeah, I'd like to know where you got it, too.
Certainly sounds very interesting. Who knows what's going on? Maybe they're bringing back the old box, maybe they're not (and I personally doubt they are). Or maybe they're doing something totally different. I guess just time will tell.

[Aaron]

also did you open the cards, Maybe they feel different or have a different finish, possibly better quality

[Don Boyer]

The 807-R-TG deck was a transitional deck - when Jarden bought USPC but hadn't yet moved operations to Kentucky, that was the designator used.  If it has a black seal, it may have even been Kentucky-made despite the Ohio box.


Your "original" box with the 2011 copyright and the "made in Erlanger" text is certainly an anomaly.  This could be a special run for magicians, or an indicator that they are indeed returning to the old box due to popular demand.  Magicians aren't the only ones who were fond of the classic-box style.  This would especially be true if USPC noticed a drop in demand since the transition to the "Standard" box.  When things affect the bottom line, a good company will take notice and take action.  And if they considered it to be some kind of embarrassing failure to switch to the Standard box, they might not draw a lot of attention to the transition back to Classic.


Where exactly did you purchase the new classic box?

[Aaron]

Dude if you can tell us where you bought that I would be interested in buying that deck off you.

[Masque]

I found two copies of this deck, one red and one blue, at a Fred Meyer here in the Portland, Oregon area.  I've opened the red one.  It feels substantially similar to the Bicycle Standards I've opened recently.  Colored Joker, same ad cards.  This deck definitely had smoother, nicer edges than the Standards from my last brick, but I can't say with any certainty that this isn't a single-run anomaly. 

For comparison and dating, the most recent brick of Standards I pulled from Costco had a code of 3511-N1623H.  The 807 deck had a code of 2811-N1619H. I assume, but do not know with certainty, that the first four digits are week and year of manufacture, putting the Standards seven weeks younger than these new 807-tagged Rider Backs. 

I hope this is another transitional use of the UPC, and that the era of the "Standard" box is coming to an end. Anyone got an ear at USPC?

[dmbaggs]

Crazy! What Fred Meyer in Portland??

[Aaron]

I will send an E-Mail to USPCC and see if I can get some info on tese   and POST 13000 in the plethora!!

[Masque]

Crazy! What Fred Meyer in Portland??

Clackamas.

I will send an E-Mail to USPCC and see if I can get some info on tese

Thanks!  Should be interesting.

[dmbaggs]

I'll have to go check that out. See if they still have any!


@Aaron let us know if you find anything out!

[Masque]

Okay, I officially don't know what's going on anymore. I just found 8 black-sealed 807-R-TGs with -very- tight cellophane, much as it is on recent production.  To be clear, these are all the old boxes which say Cincinnati on the side.  Now we all know these can contain Erlanger cards, right? Well, I got them home and opened one up… and inside was a colored Joker.

Oh, and a perfect faro right out of the box. These are quite clearly *not* early Kentucky cards. These seem in every way to be 2011 production.

Maybe they found a stack of old boxes?  Very, very strange. But on the upside, I now have a few practice decks with elegant boxes, I guess.

[Don Boyer]

Okay, I officially don't know what's going on anymore. I just found 8 black-sealed 807-R-TGs with -very- tight cellophane, much as it is on recent production.  To be clear, these are all the old boxes which say Cincinnati on the side.  Now we all know these can contain Erlanger cards, right? Well, I got them home and opened one up… and inside was a colored Joker.

Oh, and a perfect faro right out of the box. These are quite clearly *not* early Kentucky cards. These seem in every way to be 2011 production.

Maybe they found a stack of old boxes?  Very, very strange. But on the upside, I now have a few practice decks with elegant boxes, I guess.

Now, were these the really old 807-R-TGs, or were they the newer ones with the 2011 copyright and microtext about Jarden and Erlanger?  Because if not, they simply may have been old decks from the 2009 transition.  It's entirely possible they were made in Ohio, since the black-seal decks on Ohio boxes were made in BOTH factories, with the Ohio ones being of superior quality in the opinion of most of the buyers who got them and log in here.  If it's a 2011 deck, then yes, it's going to handle much better than the old ones did - the "working out the kinks" period was largely between 2009 and 2010, with the bugs being pretty much eliminated by the 2011 print runs.  And yes, it's not beyond believability that they're simply new cards in old boxes that USPC didn't want to waste, since they cost money, despite that it would be thought of as deceptive to their customers and certain government agencies that regular these kinds of things...

Use the Ace of Spades code and try to determine what year they were made.

[Masque]

Words can be tricky. Here's an image; I think you'll see the box with Cincinnati on the side as I described, and the cards very clearly being 2011 production from Erlanger.  Weird, weird, weird.

[Don Boyer]

Words can be tricky. Here's an image; I think you'll see the box with Cincinnati on the side as I described, and the cards very clearly being 2011 production from Erlanger.  Weird, weird, weird.

It's hard to definitely say what year they were printed - the N code on all the charts I've seen hasn't been used since 1910!  One site even claimed that the USPC stopped using the AoS codes in 2009 - obviously not true, since we're still seeing decks with them.

However, since 2000 the letter part of the code went back to A and has gone up one letter each year since (except "B" was used in 1996 and was left out of the 2000-present cycle).  Assuming N didn't get skipped in this cycle as it has been for so long, this year would be "N".  As confirmation, I looked at the photos of the newly-released USPC version of the Steam Punk deck from T11, and its AoS has an "N" code on it.

This would lead to the conclusion, barring any non-circumstantial supporting evidence directly from a rep of USPC, that your cards were printed in 2011, but that your box dates back to the Ohio factory.  Or they're devious and clever forgeries!

That STILL doesn't explain the box that started this thread - a "Classic" style box with Erlanger and (c) 2011 on it.  I'm seriously hoping that the USPC just dropped the lame-looking "Standard" style box and reverted back to the "Classic" model.

EDIT: take note of this, from the cypressfilms.com page on dating playing cards:

"Since there are many dates for each letter, you should look at the tax stamp (if any), design of the ace of Spades, and style of the box (if any!) to determine the correct year for the deck. It is also worth noting that older decks can often be found in newer boxes, and vice versa, presumably because inventory of boxes and decks did not always run out at the same time."

So this isn't an uncommon thing, just the first time it happened since the company relocated to a new factory in another city.  Thus, the old box you have doesn't list the same city as the guarantee joker card from that box does.

[Masque]

I agree with your points. The colored joker, the xx11 first four digits, the N code, the KY guarantee - obviously 2011 Erlanger cards. And pretty clearly just an old-stock box. Pretty strange.

So to me what this says is that even though the old 808 UPC became the 'Standard' deck, the 807 UPC carried on the traditional Rider Back box not just through the OH->KY transition, but up through now. And now that the stock of 807-R-TG boxes is depleted, they have printed a new 807 box, as seen in the first post in this thread.

And that, my friends, is interesting.

Anyhow, now that I've exhausted my local supplies of 807s, we'll see what they restock with...