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magic con v2 confirmed

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Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #250 on: April 17, 2012, 09:06:10 PM »
 

Gareth

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I doubt D&D are going to change their practices for one simple reason: it works.  Sure whilst there will be upset people (including myself) at missing out the sold out deck of the time, and some will boycott their future releases, for the remainder of the market - a much larger group of people - the quick sell outs just emphasize the apparent necessity to get in quick and buy big.  This allows them to get more decks printed, and sell more, quickly - in the overall scheme of things making more money for them.

Whether (as I suspect) that many of the remaining 500 decks were purchased in large lots by resellers, doesn't hurt them one bit.  They still make as much money and actually save in terms of packaging and postage for a smaller number of large orders.  The $8 decks then sell for $25-40 in the near future from the resellers, and this probably increases as seeming supply decreases.  In the meantime many of the individuals who purchased larger amounts of the decks with an eye to resell hold onto them watching the steady increase in the secondary markets (ebay, forums etc).

By diluting the market with the Fultons range, Fantastique and Plaid decks, they have damaged their market to the loyal supporters (and resellers) who will buy a brick or two of anything in anticipation of a quick profit in addition to some nice design and/or handling.

But when v7 comes out, or Magic Con 2013, or whatever the next hit will be, they will be able to get more printed (and not every disclose how many that is) and sell-out quickly and keep the process going.  In some (unethical) ways, you have the admire the business they've built...
 

Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #251 on: April 17, 2012, 10:02:51 PM »
 

lordlupus

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1) If MC2 is not sold online and is a MC exclusive, A will complain.

2) MC2 is sold online and B did not manage to buy it, B will complain.

3) DnD announces that MC2 will be sold again online and C is not happy because he feels it devalues his investment/reselling price of the MC2 he bought in the first round, C will complain.

4) MC2 is sold online again and every human being on earth wants it so it sold out in a minute, D did not manage to buy one so D is complaining.

Think about it. If I'm DnD, the best solution is NOT to sell MC2 in my online store and sells it on ebay incognito for a higher market price if greed is my game. Or they should have skipped the second round and list MC2 on their site 6 months later at the secondary market price (ala JN). Obviously selling it for a fair price on my site and doing it twice to give more people an opportunity to purchase one will make alot more people unhappy. Why go for fairness and give fans an opportunity when you can get higher profit further down the line?

(Disclaimer: If DnD claims that they found some MC2 stored away in their warehouse and decides to list them on their site for secondary market prices a few months down the line, please remind me to give myself a double facepalm.)
 

Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #252 on: April 17, 2012, 10:43:48 PM »
 

sinsandman

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Gareth basically just said the same I said.

I think they may have already confirmed to holding some for future variety boxes and dotm, Lord
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Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #253 on: April 17, 2012, 11:01:44 PM »
 

lordlupus

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Gareth basically just said the same I said.

I think they may have already confirmed to holding some for future variety boxes and dotm, Lord

That will be sweet since I did not buy MC2 yet and I'm a DOTM subscriber. Plus I'm a sucker for the V boxes. Thanks for the advice.
 

Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #254 on: April 18, 2012, 12:31:37 AM »
 

Gareth

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I'm guessing with some of the complaints (Don?  ;) ) they wouldn't dare to 'find a stash in the warehouse'.  Like sinsandman, I suspect DOTM subscribers will likely receive them, and possibly some to be put in whenever the next varierty box appears.

I guess the problem they have - if they acknowledged one at all - is what to do about it.  The only other suggestion I'd have is to perhaps put a (say) 6 deck limit per order on the release for the first 15 minutes or something (and actually limit people/credit cards to one order during that period).  Would it work well? possibly not, and I'm sure people would be trying to scam it in any case.  The reservation idea probably wouldn't work that well either, as it would become a race to reserve a good amount rather than the race to get to the end of the checkout process - either way a whole pile of people miss out.

LordLupus: Yes, you are right - whatever they do people will complain. 

I guess it comes down to the issue that has been discussed plenty before - if resellers can buy a deck and sell at a good profit they will.  If - as in these limited D&D (and others) decks - it's almost a certainty, why wouldn't they try to buy as many as possible?  Of course in doing so they inflate the perception of rarity and so spirals the market.  As this happens many of us buy a few extra either 'just in case' or to sell/trade...

At the end it is a supply/demand issue.  What we are looking at is almost strictly a logistics issue - of how the market distributes a limited supply fairly.   Whilst demand is high - and supply is relatively, or seemingly, low there will be a mass rush.  The only real solution is to print more decks - but this is at best very risky.
 

Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #255 on: April 18, 2012, 12:55:07 AM »
 

sinsandman

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You're welcome, lord. And that was very well said Gareth, I agree with you to the fullest.
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Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #256 on: April 18, 2012, 04:30:43 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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You are absolutely right, Decks. That is why I'm irritated about the whole thing. In addition, their customer service...I emailed Syd a couple days ago and got a reply last night. I asked about getting a couple decks signed. He replied with a "yes" and even remembered that I did not get a signed Clip Joint when I asked and he is throwing in a free signed Clip Joint without my asking...so maybe their customer service is good? I would say so.
On the other side of the coin...if I were in a boat and a shark was making waves around me, I would rather kill that shark than feed it.

Wait - am I the shark, or the guy in the boat?  :))

There's been a lot said since my last post, so I'm going to try keeping this succinct.  Knowing the way I write, it's unlikely, but I have to try...

Gareth, they can find these decks under the floor boards, in the back of the warehouse, wherever.  It's their product and we have no idea how many were made or for what purposes, in the long run.  On the surface, yes, they were made for MC2012, but it's not like they went into this blindly, with no clear idea of what they planned on doing with the extra packs.  I personally don't care if they build a new warehouse out of them to house the version-3 deck.

Do I think their customer service is terrible?  No.  But it's NOT, as they've suggested, "world's greatest".  If it was, they'd never have an unhappy customer, period.  I'd call Ellusionist's customer service better, easily - but again, I'm not saying theirs is BAD.

D&D are catering to bulk purchasers.  They buy the decks in chunks, help them sell out fast, and their cachet increases as the aftermarket price goes up, helping to make the next one a big hit.  This hasn't worked so well in the deck-glut days since Halloween, but the Magic-Con and Smoke & Mirrors series are practically paper gold to them.

The thing is, though, that this selling model can't sustain itself forever.  It's the same model we were operating under with dot-com stocks and real estate.  There's a bubble that's building and it won't last forever.  I'm proposing that rather than letting it burst, we find ways to let the air out gently and under control, but not many people seem interested in hearing that - they all want to see the next S&M v1 or J-Nuggs come out and they want to buy enough of it to pay for a new car...  Operating without transparency, not revealing size of "limited" print runs, "finding" extra decks behind the Funk-&-Wagnalls Encyclopedia...whatever reasons they have for doing this, it makes it look all that more like a shell game or a Ponzi scheme.

But it's their business, to run as they wish.  They're in the business not of selling to their fans as much as they are selling the idea that their decks are highly exclusive and a must-have item, regardless of the actual amount that's out there.  To them, it's not a big deal to leave unsatisfied customers wanting more.  But the problem lies where those unsatisfied customers just stop wanting more, and get tired of being treated in this manner.

I've often joked about how only in the software business could someone sell a product with so many disclaimers about performance and as-is condition.  If a piece of software was an automobile, the NTSB would never let it see the asphalt outside of a test track.  Well, only in this business is it considered "best-in-the-world" customer service to leave individual customers hanging while favoring those who purchase in bulk only to later resell to those same customers at a serious markup.  The only thing stopping them from eliminating the middle man and doing the marking up themselves is that the market would collapse under the hubris.  That, and that it's those middle men that create that "I-must-have-this" aura.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 11:41:54 PM by Don Boyer »
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Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #257 on: April 18, 2012, 08:08:40 AM »
 

sinsandman

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Well said good shark.  ;) so what kind of timeline are you predicting for the bubble to burst?
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Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #258 on: April 18, 2012, 11:47:57 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Well said good shark.  ;) so what kind of timeline are you predicting for the bubble to burst?


Some would say it's already begun.  I'm not certain.  And it's not too late for sellers to control the market better than they have thus far and make customers happy, thus forestalling or preventing the burst.  Companies like E won't even feel the burst as more than a low-grade speed bump because they don't rely on the scarcity model for their bread-and-butter sales, while D&D are practically built upon it and will hit that same bump at highway speed, if all things continue as they have been.
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Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #259 on: April 19, 2012, 12:25:24 AM »
 

munro159

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Much like other bubbles or recessions, you'll never get 2 people to agree on exactly when it began or if it began at all.  I think we are right smack in the middle of the bubble and like other bubbles....its only going to get worse before it gets better. I think the 1st time DanD brought out a new deck and it didn't sell out within the 1st week (Fantastique)...we saw the beginning. Now we see neither one of the Fulton's decks has sold out (Yes you can argue these aren't DandD decks but they are marketed by DandD so....).  The only way I can see this is going to hit bottom is for someone....DandD or anyone else printing cards right now...to TOTALLY FLOP! I mean they can't give a print run of decks away! Much like when whoever printed the Bicycle Big Guns sold their remaining decks for $1.00. Until you see a major company start doing this.....it may go on and on! Basically, somebody is going to have to take a hit in their pocket books.  Who knows....it may be DandD....they were suppose to have only printed 5000 Chinatown decks and they still haven't sold out and now they are printing a new Fulton's deck!
 

Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #260 on: April 19, 2012, 12:35:48 AM »
 

Aaron

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I am acctually very surprised about thee Chinatowns being in stock still, 5000 decks ussually sells out from a big comoany in a matter of hours, sometimes minutes!
People say nothing's impossible, but I do nothing everyday.

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Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #261 on: April 19, 2012, 10:06:32 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Much like other bubbles or recessions, you'll never get 2 people to agree on exactly when it began or if it began at all.  I think we are right smack in the middle of the bubble and like other bubbles....its only going to get worse before it gets better. I think the 1st time DanD brought out a new deck and it didn't sell out within the 1st week (Fantastique)...we saw the beginning. Now we see neither one of the Fulton's decks has sold out (Yes you can argue these aren't DandD decks but they are marketed by DandD so....).  The only way I can see this is going to hit bottom is for someone....DandD or anyone else printing cards right now...to TOTALLY FLOP! I mean they can't give a print run of decks away! Much like when whoever printed the Bicycle Big Guns sold their remaining decks for $1.00. Until you see a major company start doing this.....it may go on and on! Basically, somebody is going to have to take a hit in their pocket books.  Who knows....it may be DandD....they were suppose to have only printed 5000 Chinatown decks and they still haven't sold out and now they are printing a new Fulton's deck!


The Fulton decks are indeed D&D decks.  Fulton made the S&M decks as well...


I am acctually very surprised about thee Chinatowns being in stock still, 5000 decks ussually sells out from a big comoany in a matter of hours, sometimes minutes!


I chalk that up more to lazy design.  I've ranted about this before, in too much detail to recount here.  And it's off-topic unless we make a new one about the deck bubble...
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Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #262 on: April 19, 2012, 10:53:34 AM »
 

NathanCanadas

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I am acctually very surprised about thee Chinatowns being in stock still, 5000 decks ussually sells out from a big company in a matter of hours, sometimes minutes!
Well D&D isn't quite as big of a company as T11 or E, so it's not as big of a surprise as it may seem.

Don, the time has come for people to rebel against D&D!

[/quote]
The Fulton decks are indeed D&D decks.  Fulton made the S&M decks as well...
[/quote]

Oh, I didn't know that! Good to know.

[/quote]
make a new one about the deck bubble...
[/quote]

That would be a great idea. I would have started it but I suck at starting threads.

I also think it's time we rebel against big companies for charging us so much for some paper that cost them 1$ to make. There is no reason why big companies should charge us so much and make so much profit without us rebelling...
 

Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #263 on: April 19, 2012, 11:37:56 AM »
 

VortexHead

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@Don Boyer, when you say ''Fulton made the S&M decks as well...'' how do you mean? Although Brad was working with the bucks in some capacity, my understanding is that Si Scott was the Artist behind smoke and mirrors, if I remember correctly Brad was the person behind the name Smoke & Mirrors but he had no part in the production of the decks design or anything else in regards to the deck, maybe he took photos for the release but I dont know for sure. So I would have to say Si Scott and Dan & Dave made the deck while Brad gave them the name, so he still had a part in it but I wouldn't say he made the deck.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 11:39:13 AM by VortexHead »
UC
 

Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #264 on: April 19, 2012, 10:49:34 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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@Don Boyer, when you say ''Fulton made the S&M decks as well...'' how do you mean? Although Brad was working with the bucks in some capacity, my understanding is that Si Scott was the Artist behind smoke and mirrors, if I remember correctly Brad was the person behind the name Smoke & Mirrors but he had no part in the production of the decks design or anything else in regards to the deck, maybe he took photos for the release but I dont know for sure. So I would have to say Si Scott and Dan & Dave made the deck while Brad gave them the name, so he still had a part in it but I wouldn't say he made the deck.


Your statement is the correct one, thanks!


I am acctually very surprised about thee Chinatowns being in stock still, 5000 decks ussually sells out from a big company in a matter of hours, sometimes minutes!
Well D&D isn't quite as big of a company as T11 or E, so it's not as big of a surprise as it may seem.

Don, the time has come for people to rebel against D&D!

The Fulton decks are indeed D&D decks.  Fulton made the S&M decks as well...


Oh, I didn't know that! Good to know.


make a new one about the deck bubble...


That would be a great idea. I would have started it but I suck at starting threads.

I also think it's time we rebel against big companies for charging us so much for some paper that cost them 1$ to make. There is no reason why big companies should charge us so much and make so much profit without us rebelling...



Nathan, stop right there, please.


NONE of these companies are exactly what you'd call big.  You'd be amazed, really...


Rebel?  Are you high?


NO ONE HERE is complaining about D&D making money selling playing cards.  Surprise!


They invested time, effort, talent and money in making those decks.  There's a degree of risk involved in any such investment.  The suggested retail price on them is exactly what they sell them for.  For that, no one could fault them.


It's how they try using the aftermarket to create this air of exclusivity that pisses me off.  It's how someone can have the virtual equivalent of a cart full of merchandise, only to be told upon reaching the virtual register that someone already bought it.  It's the artificially-created scarcity on every playing card product they've ever released.  That's what I've been railing against.


Nathan, you're a good kid, but these are the kinds of statements that get people annoyed with you.  If you think it's so damn easy to make a deck of cards that's worth buying, go get a few grand in funding and get cracking - we'll wait...
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Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #265 on: April 19, 2012, 11:08:00 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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Don, that's not what I'm saying. Over time, custom deck prices are increasing very rapidly. I understand that small companies' decks and Kickstarter-funded decks need to cost a bit more in order to get funded succesfully, but companies like T11 and Ellusionist (maybe not D&D since they are individuals rather than a large company) sell decks at 4-7 times the price it costs them to get made. I'm not saying it is easy to create a custom deck. All I'm saying is that if I don't think it's a good idea to support decks that are made to cost collectors a lot of money (Pandora Vine backs etc.). All that will do is on the long term make collectors pay much more for decks than they should.
 

Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #266 on: April 20, 2012, 01:57:47 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Don, that's not what I'm saying. Over time, custom deck prices are increasing very rapidly. I understand that small companies' decks and Kickstarter-funded decks need to cost a bit more in order to get funded succesfully, but companies like T11 and Ellusionist (maybe not D&D since they are individuals rather than a large company) sell decks at 4-7 times the price it costs them to get made. I'm not saying it is easy to create a custom deck. All I'm saying is that if I don't think it's a good idea to support decks that are made to cost collectors a lot of money (Pandora Vine backs etc.). All that will do is on the long term make collectors pay much more for decks than they should.


You're talking about "big companies" and their new products, but then you're pulling out an example from a deck that came from an unknown overseas company that was printed four years ago.  Have you read the most recent posts in the Vine Backs topic?


When you talk about the COST of making those decks, you're only talking about what USPC charges.  If you think that's all there is to it, then put the keyboard down now and stop.  Designers don't work for free, public relations and advertising costs money, as does warehousing, packaging materials, sponsorships...  The list goes on, dude.


NO ONE makes a USPC deck for only a buck.  USPC doesn't even charge that little for large volume!


Y'know, I'm just going to stop here.  A deck is worth only what someone is willing to pay for it, period.  If it wasn't, then we'd still be paying $20 for Massa decks...  Don't get on some high horse about "where do they get off charging so much" when you clearly have no idea as to what it really costs to make a deck, not to mention that the people making these things aren't doing it for charity work, or to simply make your collection bigger.  You are engaged in a LUXURY hobby, so either spend what it costs or buy some Vegas decks at WalMart and call it a day.


Don't bring this topic up again.  Please.  Not until you've made a deck of your own, or at least tried.


And before you ask - yes, I have two deck projects I'm working on.  I'm not pushing them here yet because they're still in the early stages.  And no, I'm not answering questions about them, not yet.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 02:00:47 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #267 on: April 20, 2012, 02:42:52 PM »
 

eggman

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Interesting, your own cards. Back on the magic con. I was looking on Ebay and saw what these things are going for already, along with a lot of bidding. I do not know if these will become one of those expensive decks or is it just the post sell out bubble that I have seen in a few cases.
 

Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #268 on: April 20, 2012, 05:45:44 PM »
 

eggman

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Alright, I do not mean to beat a dead horse but I came home today to find a package from your friend and mine DanandDave. I know we have been saying negative things about them but I still love these cards. As others have stated my main issue is with there business practice. So, I am looking at my 5 decks at the moment and currently, my DandD resentment has subsided, for the moment anyway.
 

Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #269 on: April 21, 2012, 10:16:31 AM »
 

Gunshy1

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thank you 1eyedjack for putting a more than reasonable price on the magic con decks!
have you heard the word???
 

Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #270 on: April 21, 2012, 10:18:47 PM »
 

Siegismyname

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The price of the magic con decks at the 1eyedjack just increased from 14.95 to 16.95.

I was just thinking why these decks did not come with jokers. I saw some magic con footage on YouTube of some of the speakers signing the uncut sheets and I am very sure I saw 2 other cards(jokers, I assume) included. They are plain white cards with the magic con star.
 

Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #271 on: April 22, 2012, 02:18:08 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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The price of the magic con decks at the 1eyedjack just increased from 14.95 to 16.95.

I was just thinking why these decks did not come with jokers. I saw some magic con footage on YouTube of some of the speakers signing the uncut sheets and I am very sure I saw 2 other cards(jokers, I assume) included. They are plain white cards with the magic con star.

I was in touch with him earlier and he commented that he'd need to raise the price slightly based solely on the existing demand.  A lot of people want them at his price; even at $16.95 they're a steal compared to the blind-man's fire drill going on over at eBay right now over this deck.  The prices are all over the map, and many of them are on the high side.
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Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #272 on: April 22, 2012, 09:44:30 AM »
 

Siegismyname

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the price just went up to 19.99. that's twice in about 24 hours.
 

Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #273 on: April 22, 2012, 09:58:45 AM »
 

sinsandman

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Indeed, and I am sure the price will continue to climb. As it stands now, $20 is still a good price.
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Re: magic con v2 confirmed
« Reply #274 on: April 22, 2012, 10:04:58 AM »
 

loldudex2

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The price of the magic con decks at the 1eyedjack just increased from 14.95 to 16.95.

I was just thinking why these decks did not come with jokers. I saw some magic con footage on YouTube of some of the speakers signing the uncut sheets and I am very sure I saw 2 other cards(jokers, I assume) included. They are plain white cards with the magic con star.

I saw the same exact thing! Maybe they are just more as cards? Either way people have been saying that there are only 54 cards, which makes not sense why they woils remove cards before packaging.
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