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Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter

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Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2012, 10:10:52 PM »
 

Aaron

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@ReaganM... I don't mean this to be insulting, but it's either your age or intellect that is inhibiting you from understanding what I wrote... It's actually the contrary... Apparently it is I who is not allowed to have an opinion about your decks... You are allowed to have whatever opinion you like... You should however be more careful who you criticize being that you are attempting to release decks yourself... Did you notice how even some of the designers backed off of The Con Artist?  Why is it that you seem to want to dish it out, but can't take it... This is really getting old... So let's agree to disagree... You continue to think that the Ape and Steampunk decks are quality decks and are a nice contribution to the Card Collecting Community, and I will continue to think they are not... Just try and be more discreet when commenting about other peoples work in the future... All the best... -J.

Well said again.   +1

I think this forum should have a "LIKE" button!!!!!
They do, It is called Upfame (little + at top right corner of each post).
People say nothing's impossible, but I do nothing everyday.

Today I found something that reminded me of you. But don't worry I flushed and everything went back to normal.
 

Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2012, 10:51:40 PM »
 

JimmyJohns

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@ReaganM... I don't mean this to be insulting, but it's either your age or intellect that is inhibiting you from understanding what I wrote... It's actually the contrary... Apparently it is I who is not allowed to have an opinion about your decks... You are allowed to have whatever opinion you like... You should however be more careful who you criticize being that you are attempting to release decks yourself... Did you notice how even some of the designers backed off of The Con Artist?  Why is it that you seem to want to dish it out, but can't take it... This is really getting old... So let's agree to disagree... You continue to think that the Ape and Steampunk decks are quality decks and are a nice contribution to the Card Collecting Community, and I will continue to think they are not... Just try and be more discreet when commenting about other peoples work in the future... All the best... -J.

Well said again.   +1

I think this forum should have a "LIKE" button!!!!!
They do, It is called Upfame (little + at top right corner of each post).

Ohhh...Thank you! But it looks that is not working...anyway this whole fame and badges bullshit is making this forum load very slowly...

I don't care about "fame", I'm here for good information about playing cards...

Now you can all start "defame" me...

 

Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2012, 11:18:28 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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@ReaganM... I don't mean this to be insulting, but it's either your age or intellect that is inhibiting you from understanding what I wrote... It's actually the contrary... Apparently it is I who is not allowed to have an opinion about your decks... You are allowed to have whatever opinion you like... You should however be more careful who you criticize being that you are attempting to release decks yourself... Did you notice how even some of the designers backed off of The Con Artist?  Why is it that you seem to want to dish it out, but can't take it... This is really getting old... So let's agree to disagree... You continue to think that the Ape and Steampunk decks are quality decks and are a nice contribution to the Card Collecting Community, and I will continue to think they are not... Just try and be more discreet when commenting about other peoples work in the future... All the best... -J.

Well said again.   +1

I think this forum should have a "LIKE" button!!!!!
They do, It is called Upfame (little + at top right corner of each post).

Ohhh...Thank you! But it looks that is not working...anyway this whole fame and badges bullshit is making this forum load very slowly...

I don't care about "fame", I'm here for good information about playing cards...

Now you can all start "defame" me...
Haha actually you are already in the negatives (and so am I). And that is precisely why you cannot up or downfame. Once you hit the negatives, this feature is disabled. Also, if you don't want all the badges and stuff you can always switch back to Discourse v1 in your profile. It doesn't look as sleek but may be a bit quicker. Hope this helps!
On a side note, what do you guys think of my "review"?
 

Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2012, 02:06:51 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Ohhh...Thank you! But it looks that is not working...anyway this whole fame and badges bullshit is making this forum load very slowly...

I don't care about "fame", I'm here for good information about playing cards...

Now you can all start "defame" me...

It's not working for you because anyone with negative fame can't upfame or downfame a post.  You're at -4 as of this post.

@Nathan - your "review"...  It really wasn't.  And who reviews a deck box?  It looked like you were trying to be funny and snarky, but didn't quite make it, I'm sorry to say.

@everybody - you're all allowed whatever freakin' opinions you want.  But the mean-spiritedness of some of the posts do push the boundaries.  If you want to go at it with someone, please, take it to PM and knock yourselves out.  This whole damn topic is so far off-topic right now, it's ridiculous.

@BMPokerWorld - he opted for using Brahma Playing Cards not only for the better deal but for the quality of that card maker's products.  No, they aren't USPC, but USPC isn't the only company that can put together a decent deck of cards.  Brahma is the international division of Archduke Playing Cards, the makers of the Archduke Eaglebacks, widely considered to be one of the best decks on the market, with a quality rivaling or even exceeding USPC products.

Don't take my word for it alone; look at these reviews:

http://www.unitedcardists.net/uc/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1932

There's a ton of video reviews for them on YouTube as well.  I'm not saying they're the greatest cards ever made, but I am saying this printer is good competition for the 800-pound gorilla of the card industry and that the products are worth noticing.

And now, about those Mystic whatevers...  They're really ugly.  You couldn't pay me to buy a deck.  Period.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 02:08:33 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2012, 02:16:23 AM »
 

Aaron

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On KS it says the back is 25%  done. WHY START A KICK STARTER?!?!? Maybe in the end it will be a decent back but at this stage it is terrible.
People say nothing's impossible, but I do nothing everyday.

Today I found something that reminded me of you. But don't worry I flushed and everything went back to normal.
 

Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2012, 02:25:17 AM »
 

ReaganM

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@ReaganM... I don't mean this to be insulting, but it's either your age or intellect that is inhibiting you from understanding what I wrote... It's actually the contrary... Apparently it is I who is not allowed to have an opinion about your decks... You are allowed to have whatever opinion you like... You should however be more careful who you criticize being that you are attempting to release decks yourself... Did you notice how even some of the designers backed off of The Con Artist?  Why is it that you seem to want to dish it out, but can't take it... This is really getting old... So let's agree to disagree... You continue to think that the Ape and Steampunk decks are quality decks and are a nice contribution to the Card Collecting Community, and I will continue to think they are not... Just try and be more discreet when commenting about other peoples work in the future... All the best... -J.
Fine, lets do that. However the first part of your comment was an insult.
@ sinsandman : dude the steampunk deck was a success...
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 02:47:25 AM by ReaganM »
 

Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2012, 04:49:21 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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On KS it says the back is 25%  done. WHY START A KICK STARTER?!?!? Maybe in the end it will be a decent back but at this stage it is terrible.

Uh, hello?  Lance Miller himself wasn't fully finished with the design phase of the Actuators when they went up for KS.  It's part of why it took so long for them to see the light of day, but it's not like Reagan is unique in this.

Terrible is a relative term.  I personally like the design concepts he's working on.  The only reason I haven't backed yet is that I really can't afford to do so.  As much as I like them, I'd prefer keeping my car insured and keeping my cellphone working...
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
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Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
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Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2012, 10:06:43 AM »
 

bmpokerworld

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Ohhh...Thank you! But it looks that is not working...anyway this whole fame and badges bullshit is making this forum load very slowly...

I don't care about "fame", I'm here for good information about playing cards...

Now you can all start "defame" me...

It's not working for you because anyone with negative fame can't upfame or downfame a post.  You're at -4 as of this post.

@Nathan - your "review"...  It really wasn't.  And who reviews a deck box?  It looked like you were trying to be funny and snarky, but didn't quite make it, I'm sorry to say.

@everybody - you're all allowed whatever freakin' opinions you want.  But the mean-spiritedness of some of the posts do push the boundaries.  If you want to go at it with someone, please, take it to PM and knock yourselves out.  This whole damn topic is so far off-topic right now, it's ridiculous.

@BMPokerWorld - he opted for using Brahma Playing Cards not only for the better deal but for the quality of that card maker's products.  No, they aren't USPC, but USPC isn't the only company that can put together a decent deck of cards.  Brahma is the international division of Archduke Playing Cards, the makers of the Archduke Eaglebacks, widely considered to be one of the best decks on the market, with a quality rivaling or even exceeding USPC products.

Don't take my word for it alone; look at these reviews:

http://www.unitedcardists.net/uc/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1932

There's a ton of video reviews for them on YouTube as well.  I'm not saying they're the greatest cards ever made, but I am saying this printer is good competition for the 800-pound gorilla of the card industry and that the products are worth noticing.

And now, about those Mystic whatevers...  They're really ugly.  You couldn't pay me to buy a deck.  Period.

As I stated in a previous post, I never said that they were not good, only that USPCC is better. That is a fact. Can they and do they make a good product?  Yes, but ReaganM is trying to convince everyone that he is using them because of the quality, which is not the case. He has already posted about using them because he got a "better deal" period. That is what he is concerned with and not quality. Not to mention on the Kickstarter Steampunk ad he states " At 10,000$ we will print using USPCC insuring high quality decks!" So clearly even HE believes USPCC is better. Brahma advertises they can do a custom deck for under a dollar, so I doubt that there is going to be a high quality deck that ReaganM is having them produce for him. I am sure he is going with a cheaper version and why, because he got a"better deal". Those are his words and not mine.

So why isn't he charging less for the deck since he is paying less? Because he clearly is in it for the money as I have previously posted. Just like his watered down back design, shows the time he is putting into this deck. I honestly thought the original back design, when it was going to be a poker deck, was quite good. Now I think the back design is childish and leaves a lot to be desired.

For the record, about 2 years ago, when USPCC was moving and going through a lot of transitional changes, I spoke to one of the"big guys" and they told me in no uncertain terms, they have looked at lots of alternatives to have someone else make their decks but could not find anyone who had the same quality. If they could have, they would have changed. I do not know of one product that Bramha makes better than USPCC. Could they be there some day? Yes. Do they make products that have a place in this industry? Yes. Do they make products that have certain attributes that card handlers are looking for? Yes. Do they make decks that will perform certain tricks that a magician would want? Of course, but overall they are no where near USPCC in quality and performance.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 11:02:54 AM by bmpokerworld »
 

Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2012, 10:24:18 AM »
 

bmpokerworld

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On KS it says the back is 25%  done. WHY START A KICK STARTER?!?!? Maybe in the end it will be a decent back but at this stage it is terrible.

Uh, hello?  Lance Miller himself wasn't fully finished with the design phase of the Actuators when they went up for KS.  It's part of why it took so long for them to see the light of day, but it's not like Reagan is unique in this.

Terrible is a relative term.  I personally like the design concepts he's working on.  The only reason I haven't backed yet is that I really can't afford to do so.  As much as I like them, I'd prefer keeping my car insured and keeping my cellphone working...


But that is the problem with Kickstarter. You should ask people for money AFTER your design is done and not before. Making people wait for 9 or 10 months after they paid for a product is ridiculous and one of the main reasons we do not participate. In addition, it does not make good financial sense for us. If we supported all the decks that are currently available through Kickstater or pre-order, we would be out of pocket right now somewhere between $15,000- $30,000. That is ridiculous. To be honest, I believe you should have some skin in the game and have some of your own money invested in the deck as well.

Unfortunately look what Kickstarter has become, you go from incredible decks designed by Lance Miler, to this deck and the ultraape deck, which feature thrown together designs and/or watered down quality. People just looking to make a quick buck.
Thanks!
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 11:12:20 AM by bmpokerworld »
 

Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2012, 12:46:31 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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I agree with you on some points, BMPokerWorld, but there is one thing you got wrong: you said he is in for quick money. With Rajas and the finish these cards will have, 5,000 decks will be printed for almost 1.5$ each. That makes already 7,500$. In addition to that, Kickstarter and Amazon take another 10%. 10% of 8,500$ is 850$. 7,500+850 is 8,350, meaning he makes a bit more than 150$. Individually, the cards cost a lot more than how much Reagan payed to have each one printed, but knowing that he won't be able to sell all 5,000 of them, it is his only way of reaching his goal.
 

Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2012, 12:58:30 PM »
 

bmpokerworld

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I agree with you on some points, BMPokerWorld, but there is one thing you got wrong: you said he is in for quick money. With Rajas and the finish these cards will have, 5,000 decks will be printed for almost 1.5$ each. That makes already 7,500$. In addition to that, Kickstarter and Amazon take another 10%. 10% of 8,500$ is 850$. 7,500+850 is 8,350, meaning he makes a bit more than 150$. Individually, the cards cost a lot more than how much Reagan payed to have each one printed, but knowing that he won't be able to sell all 5,000 of them, it is his only way of reaching his goal.

I don't see anything in his kickstarter ad about how many decks he is making so I am not sure it is 5000 decks. But eventually he will sell them because some people will want to have every deck available no matter what. So if he actually gets funding he will eventually make money.

As far as the statement they cost a lot more than what his is paying to have them printed, is incredulous and I am getting tired of hearing that. People work someplace for $10 an hour, but all of a sudden when they design a deck they want $100 an hour for their time and of course, they spend a zillion hours to make the deck. Give me a break already. It is no different than running a business. Do I say I spend 60 hours a week and I have to charge for that on top of what I am charging for a deck? No that is part and parcel in doing business and the same thing with a deck.
Thanks!
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 01:00:37 PM by bmpokerworld »
 

Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2012, 01:27:51 PM »
 

bmpokerworld

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I agree with you on some points, BMPokerWorld, but there is one thing you got wrong: you said he is in for quick money. With Rajas and the finish these cards will have, 5,000 decks will be printed for almost 1.5$ each. That makes already 7,500$. In addition to that, Kickstarter and Amazon take another 10%. 10% of 8,500$ is 850$. 7,500+850 is 8,350, meaning he makes a bit more than 150$. Individually, the cards cost a lot more than how much Reagan payed to have each one printed, but knowing that he won't be able to sell all 5,000 of them, it is his only way of reaching his goal.

If you actual read his Kickstarter ad, it appears domestic shipping is included. If it is, that would mean he is actually losing money on the Kickstarter proposition and taking money out of his pocket. I don't believe that for one second. So he must be printing way less than 5000 decks.
Thanks!
 

Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2012, 01:32:19 PM »
 

RandyButterfield

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The thing that bothers me most about the Mystic Deck, besides the horrible design, is that they are using a Purple color that doesn't exist in the CMYK spectrum! It's fine to have a bright Purple like that as an RGB web color but there's no way that color is printable as 4-Color Process. They might be planning on printing it as a 1-Color Pantone but I highly doubt they have the prepress knowledge of how to convert it to a 1-Color job properly.

I do agree that the ideal situation for a Kickstarter playing card project going live once the cards are complete. When I was planning on going through Kickstarter for my decks I wasn't going to launch until the designs were finished. I figured working on marketing the campaign was enough to worry about when it was running. I think a perfect example is what Paul did for his Tendril campaign. He launched once the cards, and a really nice video, were finished. That way he could concentrate on marketing and was prepping the cards for print once it was obvious he would reach his goal. Now it looks like they will be printed and in our hands very quickly compared to other Kickstarter projects.

thanks, Randy
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 01:33:36 PM by RandyButterfield »
 

Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2012, 01:39:44 PM »
 

bmpokerworld

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The thing that bothers me most about the Mystic Deck, besides the horrible design, is that they are using a Purple color that doesn't exist in the CMYK spectrum! It's fine to have a bright Purple like that as an RGB web color but there's no way that color is printable as 4-Color Process. They might be planning on printing it as a 1-Color Pantone but I highly doubt they have the prepress knowledge of how to convert it to a 1-Color job properly.

I do agree that the ideal situation for a Kickstarter playing card project going live once the cards are complete. When I was planning on going through Kickstarter for my decks I wasn't going to launch until the designs were finished. I figured working on marketing the campaign was enough to worry about when it was running. I think a perfect example is what Paul did for his Tendril campaign. He launched once the cards, and a really nice video, were finished. That way he could concentrate on marketing and was prepping the cards for print once it was obvious he would reach his goal. Now it looks like they will be printed and in our hands very quickly compared to other Kickstarter projects.

thanks, Randy

I agree a 100%. If people spent more time creating a quality deck, they would not have to worry about seeing if they get funding. They WOULD get funding. But too often people are trying to design the same time they launch kickstarter, that way they see what the interest is first. It is like they do not have confidence in their designs. Even Lance's deck were basically ready. He only made changes to IMPROVE his deck after he got input. If there weren't any suggestions, he could have proceeded very soon after Kickstarter was funded. That being said, I still agree everything should be done BEFORE  going to Kickstarter and requesting money.
Thanks!
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 01:41:37 PM by bmpokerworld »
 

Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2012, 01:53:32 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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The thing that bothers me most about the Mystic Deck, besides the horrible design, is that they are using a Purple color that doesn't exist in the CMYK spectrum! It's fine to have a bright Purple like that as an RGB web color but there's no way that color is printable as 4-Color Process. They might be planning on printing it as a 1-Color Pantone but I highly doubt they have the prepress knowledge of how to convert it to a 1-Color job properly.

I do agree that the ideal situation for a Kickstarter playing card project going live once the cards are complete. When I was planning on going through Kickstarter for my decks I wasn't going to launch until the designs were finished. I figured working on marketing the campaign was enough to worry about when it was running. I think a perfect example is what Paul did for his Tendril campaign. He launched once the cards, and a really nice video, were finished. That way he could concentrate on marketing and was prepping the cards for print once it was obvious he would reach his goal. Now it looks like they will be printed and in our hands very quickly compared to other Kickstarter projects.

thanks, Randy

I agree a 100%. If people spent more time creating a quality deck, they would not have to worry about seeing if they get funding. They WOULD get funding. But too often people are trying to design the same time they launch kickstarter, that way they see what the interest is first. It is like they do not have confidence in their designs. Even Lance's deck were basically ready. He only made changes to IMPROVE his deck after he got input. If there weren't any suggestions, he could have proceeded very soon after Kickstarter was funded. That being said, I still agree everything should be done BEFORE  going to Kickstarter and requesting money.
Thanks!
I agree with you on this point. I believe that a deck should be ALMOST complete once it is introduced to kickstarter. Maybe a few small changes may be made according to the backers' will, just like for CCC, Alex, and other successful kickstarter decks, but all the main points should be ready.
 

Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2012, 02:09:55 PM »
 

Rajas Paranjpe

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@bmpokerworld

As written in my earlier post, I thought of mentioning this excerpt again

Quote
The only motive and reason for us to start a Brahma Playing Cards was to provide high grade playing cards at best price with shortest delivery time. By best price here we mean not compromising on quality but by implementing other factors such as doing business on very high turnover, low wastage techniques, spending adequate on marketing etc.

Also we didnt start Brahma Playing Cards in order to just compete with other companies or keeping pre-existing companies as benchmark.
We are willing to and will evolve as time goes by improving, inventing new techniques that could help in keeping costs low but quality high.
When we advertise us by providing a cheaper alternative for printing playing cards, card games etc. to creative artists, it does not mean at the cost of quality.

Customers are very intelligent, they know how and where to spend their hard-earned money. This also applies to spending on KickStarter.

If requested, we would be happy to provide you samples from our recent best work as a Commercial Sample.
Best,
Owner,
Brahma Playing Cards
Manufacturer of highest quality customized playing cards in paper and plastic.
Experts in making custom playing cards for magicians, cardistry, card games and poker.
http://www.brahmaplayingcards.com
 

Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2012, 02:04:37 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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As I stated in a previous post, I never said that they were not good, only that USPCC is better. That is a fact. Can they and do they make a good product?  Yes, but ReaganM is trying to convince everyone that he is using them because of the quality, which is not the case. He has already posted about using them because he got a "better deal" period. That is what he is concerned with and not quality. Not to mention on the Kickstarter Steampunk ad he states " At 10,000$ we will print using USPCC insuring high quality decks!" So clearly even HE believes USPCC is better. Brahma advertises they can do a custom deck for under a dollar, so I doubt that there is going to be a high quality deck that ReaganM is having them produce for him. I am sure he is going with a cheaper version and why, because he got a"better deal". Those are his words and not mine.

So why isn't he charging less for the deck since he is paying less? Because he clearly is in it for the money as I have previously posted. Just like his watered down back design, shows the time he is putting into this deck. I honestly thought the original back design, when it was going to be a poker deck, was quite good. Now I think the back design is childish and leaves a lot to be desired.

For the record, about 2 years ago, when USPCC was moving and going through a lot of transitional changes, I spoke to one of the"big guys" and they told me in no uncertain terms, they have looked at lots of alternatives to have someone else make their decks but could not find anyone who had the same quality. If they could have, they would have changed. I do not know of one product that Bramha makes better than USPCC. Could they be there some day? Yes. Do they make products that have a place in this industry? Yes. Do they make products that have certain attributes that card handlers are looking for? Yes. Do they make decks that will perform certain tricks that a magician would want? Of course, but overall they are no where near USPCC in quality and performance.

The Archduke Eaglebacks are comparable in handling to the Moth/Myth and the Watcher decks.  People rave about those decks because they handle like nothing seen before, certainly not out of USPC.  I think you'd be hard pressed to say that USPC's output is consistently better than any of those three decks listed above.  Different would be a better term, but not better.

Reagan's Kickstarter project page was created when he thought he'd be stuck using some cheapo Chinese manufacturer noted for terrible-quality cards.  It wasn't until near the end of his project's fundraiser that he became aware of Archduke - Rajas had joined the board here, his cards were already known and he announced he was offering reasonably-priced printing at a high level of quality.  I introduced Reagan to Archduke, and he got in touch with Rajas, and the rest is history.  Rajas had to create Brahma as a subsidiary company due to Indian regulations - Archduke was already registered strictly as a domestic-trade business, so he needed a new company that could be registered for international business.  Reagan's deck will be the first under the Brahma imprint, but far from the first off of the presses that Rajas Paranjpe operates out of Mumbai.

USPC didn't know about Brahma or Archduke back in '09 because Brahma didn't yet exist and Archduke wasn't selling internationally - it was other importers that bought his cards in bulk and sent them to other parts of the world.  I don't even think they would have created a blip on USPC's radar at the time.

You state flat out that USPC's decks are superior in quality and performance - but have you ever handled a deck made by Archduke?  It makes you appear like one of those religious zealots who protest a fictional movie before even knowing what the movie is actually about, simply because someone higher up in their church said it was somehow against their church's doctrine - despite the movie being entirely fictional and in no way claiming to be based on real events, such as "The DaVinci Code".  Try out a deck of Eaglebacks, then come back and give a truly self-informed opinion, like I've been doing from the start.

BTW: don't take any of this personally.  I happen to think you're a great guy and I've shopped in your store many, many times.  We're all very appreciative of your business, and I'm personally a big fan of the Bicycle Premier deck you produced - I consider it one of the best uses of metallic ink in a deck design that I've seen to date.
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Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
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Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2012, 04:32:32 AM »
 

Pentagear

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Alright. It's time again for another "Matt's Review" on yet another, deck that... well let's just say, this thing needs help. Like, no-joke-level help...

Here we go...

Right off the bat, you don't need Photoshop or ImageReady to tell that the back design fails the radial symmetry test. It failed the test pretty hard core too:


I've taken some time to piece apart the deck box's design and branding approach:


1. Not enough spacing between focal points and box folding points:
- Left margin of "Poker Size".
- Right margin of "Limited Edition".
- Left and right margins of "Mystic" logo, star bursts and "Techno Edition" on box front.
- Micro text and company branding on box bottom.
2. Various areas where typography is not aligned with similar elements:
- "Made in USA" is not vertically centered or on the same line as "Air Cushion Finish".
- "United States Playing Card Company" is not vertically aligned or provided room for breathing.
3. Three fonts are being used in the design of the box. One for "Mystic" and generic copy, one for the Gaff, and an additional font for the "Techno Edition". I didn't count the 4th since it's part of the company's "brand" (if that's what could be considered a brand, anyhow)
4. The "xXx" imagery does not follow any kind of symmetry, not vertically, nor horizonatally
5. The deck is branded as two different types of editions, one says "Limited" the other says "Techno" which is it?
6. The deck name branding is terribly off balance and leans heavily to the left since only one capital letter was used. No additional typography was performed upon the letters to make them unique from simply entering the text into a text layer in Photoshop.
7. The legibility of the font being used for the body-copy on the back has poor distance visibility and is also low contrast. Too much happening behind the text, and the text is too close to being the same color as the surrounding area.

General Personal Qualms with the design:
1. The "Crosshatch 4" brush from the "Assorted Brushes" Photoshop brush group was used as a primary graphic element. A brush is just as bad, if not worse than using clip art for a primary design feature.
2. The color is terrible and not at all printable. The nearest matching swatch is 51% less saturated and 37% less bright. The color turns out to be a grayish-purple. The color is also not exactly what I would call "unisex".
3. The odd pixel-art approach to design prototyping is never a good idea since what we see on screen is less than a third of the number of pixels that USPCC puts into 1 inch of paper.

With that being said, this deck does not even receive a grade in my book. I will continue to believe this was an "Ecstacy-laced beer induced MS Paint design session while thinking about playing cards". Just does not fly.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 05:10:31 AM by Pentagear »
I'm not a cardist or a magician. I'm a pureblood artist, and as such I seek to educate those who are really out of touch with design, not only for their betterment, but to also provide external critique that others can use along the way while they are doing their marketing research. I'm purely here for the design aesthetics that playing cards have, so you'll not see me critiquing companies, the people's business practices that run them, or the actual handling of the cards. What I can tell you though is when something is designed/executed well with near 100% accuracy.



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Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2012, 04:49:39 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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With that being said, this deck does not even receive a grade in my book. I will continue to believe this was an "Ecstacy-laced beer induced MS Paint design session while thinking about playing cards". Just does not fly.

I'd think more like "spoiled brat kid who thinks everything he touches turns to gold" more than I would "Ecstasy-laced beer" - though the use of MS Paint is dead-on!  I could try playing Devil's Advocate on this one by saying that perhaps he wasn't seeking symmetry, but I'd only be fooling myself.  This deck's a train that wrecked before leaving the station!
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Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #44 on: April 02, 2012, 10:05:57 AM »
 

NathanCanadas

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Alright. It's time again for another "Matt's Review" on yet another, deck that... well let's just say, this thing needs help. Like, no-joke-level help...

Here we go...

Right off the bat, you don't need Photoshop or ImageReady to tell that the back design fails the radial symmetry test. It failed the test pretty hard core too:


I've taken some time to piece apart the deck box's design and branding approach:


1. Not enough spacing between focal points and box folding points:
- Left margin of "Poker Size".
- Right margin of "Limited Edition".
- Left and right margins of "Mystic" logo, star bursts and "Techno Edition" on box front.
- Micro text and company branding on box bottom.
2. Various areas where typography is not aligned with similar elements:
- "Made in USA" is not vertically centered or on the same line as "Air Cushion Finish".
- "United States Playing Card Company" is not vertically aligned or provided room for breathing.
3. Three fonts are being used in the design of the box. One for "Mystic" and generic copy, one for the Gaff, and an additional font for the "Techno Edition". I didn't count the 4th since it's part of the company's "brand" (if that's what could be considered a brand, anyhow)
4. The "xXx" imagery does not follow any kind of symmetry, not vertically, nor horizonatally
5. The deck is branded as two different types of editions, one says "Limited" the other says "Techno" which is it?
6. The deck name branding is terribly off balance and leans heavily to the left since only one capital letter was used. No additional typography was performed upon the letters to make them unique from simply entering the text into a text layer in Photoshop.
7. The legibility of the font being used for the body-copy on the back has poor distance visibility and is also low contrast. Too much happening behind the text, and the text is too close to being the same color as the surrounding area.

General Personal Qualms with the design:
1. The "Crosshatch 4" brush from the "Assorted Brushes" Photoshop brush group was used as a primary graphic element. A brush is just as bad, if not worse than using clip art for a primary design feature.
2. The color is terrible and not at all printable. The nearest matching swatch is 51% less saturated and 37% less bright. The color turns out to be a grayish-purple. The color is also not exactly what I would call "unisex".
3. The odd pixel-art approach to design prototyping is never a good idea since what we see on screen is less than a third of the number of pixels that USPCC puts into 1 inch of paper.

With that being said, this deck does not even receive a grade in my book. I will continue to believe this was an "Ecstacy-laced beer induced MS Paint design session while thinking about playing cards". Just does not fly.
Great review! If the box is this terrible, I wonder how bad the actual faces will be!
What's the biggest shame is that they already have almost 1,500$ although they haven't even shown the faces yet!
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 10:35:50 AM by NathanCanadas »
 

Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #45 on: April 02, 2012, 01:32:55 PM »
 

Paul Carpenter

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Are you serious, they have $1500 already? <goes and checks>

OK, it's $1200 right now, with 36 backers. So there are 36 human beings, with brains and eyes, in the world that think this is acceptable? I'm stunned. Personal tastes or not, there is a base-level to all art that provides a foundation of quality that personal opinion adds too. This has no foundation of any kind and it is hugely sad that there is so little concern for creating a basic quality product, and even sadder that people will spend money on such poorly considered design. Maddening!

I guess there is no real need for me to actually design and work out details of my next deck. I can slap standard courts cards on it, pick some fonts to put on the box and call it a day. You heard it here first!

Aurum (Crap Edition) will be available next week! :)
Paul Carpenter
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Tendril Ascendant & Nightfall  /  Standards /  Chancellor, Zenith, Deco, Aurum, Tendril: Sold Out
 

Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #46 on: April 02, 2012, 01:33:13 PM »
 

bmpokerworld

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As I stated in a previous post, I never said that they were not good, only that USPCC is better. That is a fact. Can they and do they make a good product?  Yes, but ReaganM is trying to convince everyone that he is using them because of the quality, which is not the case. He has already posted about using them because he got a "better deal" period. That is what he is concerned with and not quality. Not to mention on the Kickstarter Steampunk ad he states " At 10,000$ we will print using USPCC insuring high quality decks!" So clearly even HE believes USPCC is better. Brahma advertises they can do a custom deck for under a dollar, so I doubt that there is going to be a high quality deck that ReaganM is having them produce for him. I am sure he is going with a cheaper version and why, because he got a"better deal". Those are his words and not mine.

So why isn't he charging less for the deck since he is paying less? Because he clearly is in it for the money as I have previously posted. Just like his watered down back design, shows the time he is putting into this deck. I honestly thought the original back design, when it was going to be a poker deck, was quite good. Now I think the back design is childish and leaves a lot to be desired.

For the record, about 2 years ago, when USPCC was moving and going through a lot of transitional changes, I spoke to one of the"big guys" and they told me in no uncertain terms, they have looked at lots of alternatives to have someone else make their decks but could not find anyone who had the same quality. If they could have, they would have changed. I do not know of one product that Bramha makes better than USPCC. Could they be there some day? Yes. Do they make products that have a place in this industry? Yes. Do they make products that have certain attributes that card handlers are looking for? Yes. Do they make decks that will perform certain tricks that a magician would want? Of course, but overall they are no where near USPCC in quality and performance.

The Archduke Eaglebacks are comparable in handling to the Moth/Myth and the Watcher decks.  People rave about those decks because they handle like nothing seen before, certainly not out of USPC.  I think you'd be hard pressed to say that USPC's output is consistently better than any of those three decks listed above.  Different would be a better term, but not better.

Reagan's Kickstarter project page was created when he thought he'd be stuck using some cheapo Chinese manufacturer noted for terrible-quality cards.  It wasn't until near the end of his project's fundraiser that he became aware of Archduke - Rajas had joined the board here, his cards were already known and he announced he was offering reasonably-priced printing at a high level of quality.  I introduced Reagan to Archduke, and he got in touch with Rajas, and the rest is history.  Rajas had to create Brahma as a subsidiary company due to Indian regulations - Archduke was already registered strictly as a domestic-trade business, so he needed a new company that could be registered for international business.  Reagan's deck will be the first under the Brahma imprint, but far from the first off of the presses that Rajas Paranjpe operates out of Mumbai.

USPC didn't know about Brahma or Archduke back in '09 because Brahma didn't yet exist and Archduke wasn't selling internationally - it was other importers that bought his cards in bulk and sent them to other parts of the world.  I don't even think they would have created a blip on USPC's radar at the time.

You state flat out that USPC's decks are superior in quality and performance - but have you ever handled a deck made by Archduke?  It makes you appear like one of those religious zealots who protest a fictional movie before even knowing what the movie is actually about, simply because someone higher up in their church said it was somehow against their church's doctrine - despite the movie being entirely fictional and in no way claiming to be based on real events, such as "The DaVinci Code".  Try out a deck of Eaglebacks, then come back and give a truly self-informed opinion, like I've been doing from the start.

BTW: don't take any of this personally.  I happen to think you're a great guy and I've shopped in your store many, many times.  We're all very appreciative of your business, and I'm personally a big fan of the Bicycle Premier deck you produced - I consider it one of the best uses of metallic ink in a deck design that I've seen to date.

No I have actually handled them and I am not impressed. In fact if they were so good, I would have people clamoring for me to stock them, which has not happened. I do not make wild allegations about products without first hand knowledge. The real point was, he is in my opinion, making an inferior deck and criticizing someone's deck in the process.

Too many times, too many people ignore the facts and just plain lie on this forum to suit their own needs. Perfect example yesterday Nathancards says" he is printing 5000 at $1.50 per deck is his cost. Where does he come up with that number? Under ReaganM' Stage 2 post, he clearly states the decks are costing him $5100 for all the decks. So last time I went to school, $5100 for 5000 decks is about a $1.00 per deck and nowhere near $1.50 per deck. So lets do the math shall we?

Take the median price per deck which is $8.00, $8.00 x 5000= $40,000
Cost for decks                                                                          - $5100
Postage (including label) and bubble wrap                               -$6562.50
Kick starter fees & amazon fees  15%  ($40,000 x 15%)          -$6,000
                                                                             Total Profit    $22,337.50

Will he see all that profit right away? Probably not. But make no mistake, he is not using Brahma for any other reason other than they are the cheapest. So I am not sure why you keep defending that there is some other reason. He knows nothing about playing cards. When he initially posted, he said he could get Kem made for $5.00 per deck. When he was told he was incorrect, did he say, oh I just thought that is what they would be? No he said " I been down this road before and I know how much they cost". Well clearly he hasn't. He has no idea what quality is, just look at this post:

"Unfortunantly, these will not be KEM like bycicle prestige"

He doesn't even have a clue that Kem and Bicycle prestige are 2 completely different animals. But yet you keep defending the reason he is using Brahma despite the fact that clearly he can not tell the difference between one deck of cards to another and despite that he already stated why he bought the decks; "Because he got a better deal" period. Those are his words not mine.

He clearly is only worried about the money and that is it. If he wasn't he would sell them for less. Keep defending him despite that there is no proof to your point of view and clearly substantial proof for my point of view. What is that proof? His own posts.
Thanks!

« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 12:16:45 PM by bmpokerworld »
 

Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #47 on: April 02, 2012, 01:51:32 PM »
 

Pentagear

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Are you serious, they have $1500 already? <goes and checks>

OK, it's $1200 right now, with 36 backers. So there are 36 human beings, with brains and eyes, in the world that think this is acceptable? I'm stunned. Personal tastes or not, there is a base-level to all art that provides a foundation of quality that personal opinion adds too. This has no foundation of any kind and it is hugely sad that there is so little concern for creating a basic quality product, and even sadder that people will spend money on such poorly considered design. Maddening!

I guess there is no real need for me to actually design and work out details of my next deck. I can slap standard courts cards on it, pick some fonts to put on the box and call it a day. You heard it here first!

Aurum (Crap Edition) will be available next week! :)

I completely agree. With that statement, I felt there was this somehow deep-lurking challenge to turn utter crap into something that could have potential. I don't know why I did it, compulsions are like that I suppose, but I felt like sharing my take on this terrible train wreck... Took me all of 10 minutes during a bout of utter boredom.


You may NOT use this image without my express written permission!
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 01:54:09 PM by Pentagear »
I'm not a cardist or a magician. I'm a pureblood artist, and as such I seek to educate those who are really out of touch with design, not only for their betterment, but to also provide external critique that others can use along the way while they are doing their marketing research. I'm purely here for the design aesthetics that playing cards have, so you'll not see me critiquing companies, the people's business practices that run them, or the actual handling of the cards. What I can tell you though is when something is designed/executed well with near 100% accuracy.



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Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2012, 02:04:55 PM »
 

bmpokerworld

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As I stated in a previous post, I never said that they were not good, only that USPCC is better. That is a fact. Can they and do they make a good product?  Yes, but ReaganM is trying to convince everyone that he is using them because of the quality, which is not the case. He has already posted about using them because he got a "better deal" period. That is what he is concerned with and not quality. Not to mention on the Kickstarter Steampunk ad he states " At 10,000$ we will print using USPCC insuring high quality decks!" So clearly even HE believes USPCC is better. Brahma advertises they can do a custom deck for under a dollar, so I doubt that there is going to be a high quality deck that ReaganM is having them produce for him. I am sure he is going with a cheaper version and why, because he got a"better deal". Those are his words and not mine.

So why isn't he charging less for the deck since he is paying less? Because he clearly is in it for the money as I have previously posted. Just like his watered down back design, shows the time he is putting into this deck. I honestly thought the original back design, when it was going to be a poker deck, was quite good. Now I think the back design is childish and leaves a lot to be desired.

For the record, about 2 years ago, when USPCC was moving and going through a lot of transitional changes, I spoke to one of the"big guys" and they told me in no uncertain terms, they have looked at lots of alternatives to have someone else make their decks but could not find anyone who had the same quality. If they could have, they would have changed. I do not know of one product that Bramha makes better than USPCC. Could they be there some day? Yes. Do they make products that have a place in this industry? Yes. Do they make products that have certain attributes that card handlers are looking for? Yes. Do they make decks that will perform certain tricks that a magician would want? Of course, but overall they are no where near USPCC in quality and performance.

The Archduke Eaglebacks are comparable in handling to the Moth/Myth and the Watcher decks.  People rave about those decks because they handle like nothing seen before, certainly not out of USPC.  I think you'd be hard pressed to say that USPC's output is consistently better than any of those three decks listed above.  Different would be a better term, but not better.

Reagan's Kickstarter project page was created when he thought he'd be stuck using some cheapo Chinese manufacturer noted for terrible-quality cards.  It wasn't until near the end of his project's fundraiser that he became aware of Archduke - Rajas had joined the board here, his cards were already known and he announced he was offering reasonably-priced printing at a high level of quality.  I introduced Reagan to Archduke, and he got in touch with Rajas, and the rest is history.  Rajas had to create Brahma as a subsidiary company due to Indian regulations - Archduke was already registered strictly as a domestic-trade business, so he needed a new company that could be registered for international business.  Reagan's deck will be the first under the Brahma imprint, but far from the first off of the presses that Rajas Paranjpe operates out of Mumbai.

USPC didn't know about Brahma or Archduke back in '09 because Brahma didn't yet exist and Archduke wasn't selling internationally - it was other importers that bought his cards in bulk and sent them to other parts of the world.  I don't even think they would have created a blip on USPC's radar at the time.

You state flat out that USPC's decks are superior in quality and performance - but have you ever handled a deck made by Archduke?  It makes you appear like one of those religious zealots who protest a fictional movie before even knowing what the movie is actually about, simply because someone higher up in their church said it was somehow against their church's doctrine - despite the movie being entirely fictional and in no way claiming to be based on real events, such as "The DaVinci Code".  Try out a deck of Eaglebacks, then come back and give a truly self-informed opinion, like I've been doing from the start.

BTW: don't take any of this personally.  I happen to think you're a great guy and I've shopped in your store many, many times.  We're all very appreciative of your business, and I'm personally a big fan of the Bicycle Premier deck you produced - I consider it one of the best uses of metallic ink in a deck design that I've seen to date.

One other point, I think you should read your own post. Here is what you wrote:

Reagan's Kickstarter project page was created when he thought he'd be stuck using some cheapo Chinese manufacturer noted for terrible-quality cards.....................I introduced Reagan to Archduke, and he got in touch with Rajas, and the rest is history.


So if you did not introduce him to Brahma playing cards, he would have used the "cheapo Chinese manufacturer noted for terrible-quality cards"? Those are your words not mine. So clearly if you weren't involved, he would have went with the cheapest possible cards to begin with, which is what I have been saying all along. Does that sound like someone who is worried about anything but how much money he could make? I think not.
Thanks!
 

Re: Mystic Techno Deck on Kickstarter
« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2012, 02:11:57 PM »
 

ReaganM

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@ Bmpokerworld : I really wanted to stay out of this but we will be getting a prototype deck soon, this should answer any questions on quality.

Also about the chinese manufacturer, I really didnt know much about cards back then and I am still learning.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 02:18:08 PM by ReaganM »