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Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?

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Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« on: April 28, 2012, 05:36:56 AM »
 

xela

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvW7-019XLQ&

I remember several months ago, watching that, I was fooled. However, watching it now and knowing how easy it is to reseal a deck, I decided that the trick Sean performs is extremely simple in its conception. The moves he pulls to do the deck switch and the force were way over my head, but the concept is there and I am utterly surprised it fooled Penn & Teller.

I've gone through the video several times now and I can see when he does everything I think he does. I know how he "got the signed card into the new deck" and the answer is shockingly simple.

Can you guys figure it out? The hint is to pay attention when Sean allows Penn to fan out the cards and show the audience.

You guys are welcome to post theories below, as we are a censorship-free board, but I will neither confirm or deny them as far as my theory goes.

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Re: Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2012, 06:20:44 AM »
 

Joshua Robinson

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I have seen this video many times and he did the same with Ellen DeGenerous (or how ever you spell it) and I was the same, fooled first time, and slowly started to figure it out, I think he opened the deck, took away the "premium and joker cards" re sealed with new seal, used the resealer for cello and put a slit in the bottom of the deck and the cello, but i do not know how he got it into the perfect spot...

the one with Ellen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8F6uqqp8UY&feature=relmfu
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 06:24:38 AM by Joshua Robinson »
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Re: Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2012, 07:26:09 AM »
 

Siegismyname

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Cyril Takayama did something similar in 2007. He started off with an ACR before proceeding for the finale. In 2007 I have just started to learn magic and thought that this was te most awesome trick, until I saw the berglas effect. This trick is still a very good one and I can probably only figure out half of it

Here are the videos:
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTab2YGKGgI (the ACR only starts somewhere in the last 3 minutes)
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cogL0m49HOo (there is a comment here saying that David Blaine did something similar in 1997. Anyone know about this?)
 

Re: Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2012, 10:15:13 AM »
 

NathanCanadas

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If you're right, Alex, he must be terribly good at forcing a card!
 

Re: Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2012, 11:39:14 AM »
 

saurabh

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I can follow the switch and the 'insertion' if you will, but I don't get how he sealed it brand new. Any help?
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Re: Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2012, 07:05:30 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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All I know is that it's one awesome piece of sleight of hand.  Both magicians did an awesome job of it.  I can imagine how certain elements of the tricks were done, but there's still enough mystery to it, and there's no denying the skill required to pull it off.
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Re: Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2012, 07:12:55 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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All I know is that it's one awesome piece of sleight of hand.  Both magicians did an awesome job of it.  I can imagine how certain elements of the tricks were done, but there's still enough mystery to it, and there's no denying the skill required to pull it off.
Yes, I agree. I see how certain things were done, but I just can't see how they were all put together. Penn and Teller had the same issue, and if it fooled them, unless they were stupid that day, then this trick is almost impossible to figure out.
 

Re: Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2012, 09:27:48 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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To me, here's what's truly impressive.  I could know every last detail of this trick, and honestly, I'd still find it impressive based on both the skill level needed to accomplish it and the massive impact that it has on laypersons and magicians alike.
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Re: Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2012, 04:12:55 PM »
 

Curt


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Shawn Farquhar is definitely one talented man. I was lucky enough to have a chance to meet and hang out with him when he came by and did a lecture for our local magic club a year or two ago, his daughter is also has a great stage presence even though she is quite young. I agree that the performance is what makes the trick and it's awesome how he presented that effect, very in the hands and up close type. I am also a huge fan of the way he presents this card trick, it's very cool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkYNAwdFH9M
 

Re: Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2012, 08:56:21 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Shawn Farquhar is definitely one talented man. I was lucky enough to have a chance to meet and hang out with him when he came by and did a lecture for our local magic club a year or two ago, his daughter is also has a great stage presence even though she is quite young. I agree that the performance is what makes the trick and it's awesome how he presented that effect, very in the hands and up close type. I am also a huge fan of the way he presents this card trick, it's very cool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkYNAwdFH9M


That routine was AWESOME.  Totally.  I aspire to having a talent like that.
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Re: Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2012, 08:59:05 PM »
 

xela

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My guess is that he forces the card. How? I have no idea, because he fooled Penn when he did it. He was watching his hands like a hawk.

Since my theory does nothing to reveal sleights, technique or anything like that, here it is:

I believe the set up for the trick was to take two identical decks. Deck 1 he opened and removed the ad cards, Joker and the Nine of Diamonds. Resealing a deck to look exactly like a store-bought one takes just several hours of practice, and is definitely the easiest part of the trick. Depending on his forcing method, I don't know if he opened the second deck, but again that's not a problem to do.

During the performance, Penn opens the second deck and the nine is forced on him. Shawn removing the ad cards from this second deck in front of Penn seems to just be misdirection, and gives him an excuse to do something later. During the performance, Shawn places the signed 9 into his pocket with the other ad cards. He switches the deck in Penn's hands for the first, sealed & modified deck in his pocket. He has Penn open that deck but note that he does not have Penn look through the cards just yet. Instead, he points out how this deck is missing the ad cards at the top, and says that's because they're in his pocket. With those cards, he takes out the signed 9 and places it back into the cards in Penn's hands.

NOW he has Penn fan out the cards and show the audience.


I may be spot on or very, very far off.
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Re: Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2012, 09:24:14 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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Alex, that's what it seemed like to me as well. I also know how he forced the card. Yet, this force is only 95% effective, and maybe 75% effective on magicians that know it. So to catch Penn with it must have been real hard. Also, I think Penn would have seen it if there had been a deck switch. Finally, when Mr. Farquar showed the trick on Ellen, he did indeed show that both of the cards he was putting in his pockets were the jokers. Unless he is really good at hiding the 9 behind the jokers, we would have seen it. Maybe Penn noticed none of this, didn't know how resealing a deck was possible, and/or wanted to be fooled so let it be. I wonder if it's possible to ask USPCC to print a prototype for a Bike deck with no jokers or ad cards and 1 face up card in its correct spot. He could have done that as well. Whatever it was, it is a nice trick and was nicely executed.

On a side not, I just hit 1,800 posts. Wow. :)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 09:28:17 PM by NathanCanadas »
 

Re: Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2012, 11:13:37 PM »
 

saurabh

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Alex, that's what it seemed like to me as well. I also know how he forced the card. Yet, this force is only 95% effective, and maybe 75% effective on magicians that know it. So to catch Penn with it must have been real hard. Also, I think Penn would have seen it if there had been a deck switch. Finally, when Mr. Farquar showed the trick on Ellen, he did indeed show that both of the cards he was putting in his pockets were the jokers. Unless he is really good at hiding the 9 behind the jokers, we would have seen it. Maybe Penn noticed none of this, didn't know how resealing a deck was possible, and/or wanted to be fooled so let it be. I wonder if it's possible to ask USPCC to print a prototype for a Bike deck with no jokers or ad cards and 1 face up card in its correct spot. He could have done that as well. Whatever it was, it is a nice trick and was nicely executed.

On a side not, I just hit 1,800 posts. Wow. :)

Penn and Teller did in fact see the deck switch. But the producers of the show demand complete explanation as a constituent to getting 'not fooled'. If he did get a prototype, how did the signed card get in the deck?

My guess is that he forces the card. How? I have no idea, because he fooled Penn when he did it. He was watching his hands like a hawk.

Since my theory does nothing to reveal sleights, technique or anything like that, here it is:

I believe the set up for the trick was to take two identical decks. Deck 1 he opened and removed the ad cards, Joker and the Nine of Diamonds. Resealing a deck to look exactly like a store-bought one takes just several hours of practice, and is definitely the easiest part of the trick. Depending on his forcing method, I don't know if he opened the second deck, but again that's not a problem to do.

During the performance, Penn opens the second deck and the nine is forced on him. Shawn removing the ad cards from this second deck in front of Penn seems to just be misdirection, and gives him an excuse to do something later. During the performance, Shawn places the signed 9 into his pocket with the other ad cards. He switches the deck in Penn's hands for the first, sealed & modified deck in his pocket. He has Penn open that deck but note that he does not have Penn look through the cards just yet. Instead, he points out how this deck is missing the ad cards at the top, and says that's because they're in his pocket. With those cards, he takes out the signed 9 and places it back into the cards in Penn's hands.

NOW he has Penn fan out the cards and show the audience.


I may be spot on or very, very far off.

I don't think that's the method because
a) Its the 7 that goes into the pack, he did not switch the 7. The deck switch was already done at the time he was inserting the 7 of Diamonds into the pack.
b) He does not add any cards to the deck (or touch them) when he pours the cards into Penn's hands.
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Re: Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2012, 12:49:45 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Alright, first - Nathan, a PROTOTYPE?  If there was a smiley for shaking my head in disbelief, I'd be using it now.

I think Alex is correct, there is a card force involved.

Saurabh, while he dumps the cards into Penn's hands, the cards don't get immediately spread out.  When the spreading occurs, he's already reached into his pocket to show off the ads and jokers he'll culled out from before.  At that point he somehow palms the signed card and slips it into the deck in the moment it's being fanned.

In fact, think on this: at the trick's start, he slips out both ads, but only a single joker.  He doesn't remove the other joker until after the signed card was chosen and signed - a sure sign that this joker had company on the way to his pocket.
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Re: Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2012, 03:01:41 AM »
 

saurabh

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Saurabh, while he dumps the cards into Penn's hands, the cards don't get immediately spread out.  When the spreading occurs, he's already reached into his pocket to show off the ads and jokers he'll culled out from before.  At that point he somehow palms the signed card and slips it into the deck in the moment it's being fanned.

In fact, think on this: at the trick's start, he slips out both ads, but only a single joker.  He doesn't remove the other joker until after the signed card was chosen and signed - a sure sign that this joker had company on the way to his pocket.

At exactly which point do you think he slipped the card back into the pack? Lets me just name the moves out.
He does the deck switch while Penn is signing the card, then he uses a Marlo 'Tilt' to insert the 7 b/w the joker and the sealed pack, then he takes them both out as one and slips them in his pocket.
The second deck is unsealed and poured out into Penn's hands. At no point does he touch the deck after this. He does turn the card over but it looks pretty fair.

His hands were in fact empty and wasn't palming anything before or during the 'pouring' action right after the 'Deja Vu'.

I do have a theory as to how I would do this, but I'll post it once I've seen what you have to say.
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Re: Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2012, 04:38:06 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Saurabh, while he dumps the cards into Penn's hands, the cards don't get immediately spread out.  When the spreading occurs, he's already reached into his pocket to show off the ads and jokers he'll culled out from before.  At that point he somehow palms the signed card and slips it into the deck in the moment it's being fanned.

In fact, think on this: at the trick's start, he slips out both ads, but only a single joker.  He doesn't remove the other joker until after the signed card was chosen and signed - a sure sign that this joker had company on the way to his pocket.

At exactly which point do you think he slipped the card back into the pack? Lets me just name the moves out.
He does the deck switch while Penn is signing the card, then he uses a Marlo 'Tilt' to insert the 7 b/w the joker and the sealed pack, then he takes them both out as one and slips them in his pocket.
The second deck is unsealed and poured out into Penn's hands. At no point does he touch the deck after this. He does turn the card over but it looks pretty fair.

His hands were in fact empty and wasn't palming anything before or during the 'pouring' action right after the 'Deja Vu'.

I do have a theory as to how I would do this, but I'll post it once I've seen what you have to say.

I was going off the top of my head, but this time, I replayed the video.

at 4:22, he's just opened the box and he reaches into the box to partially extract the cards from the box BEFORE dumping them into Penn's open hands.  His hands very cleverly conceal the box at that moment.  He could have slipped in the signed card at that moment.
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Re: Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2012, 06:54:01 AM »
 

Joshua Robinson

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OKAY OKAY OKAY!!! break it up and Saurabh He is using the 8 of Diamonds not the seven and not the 9
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Re: Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2012, 07:34:00 AM »
 

saurabh

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at 4:22, he's just opened the box and he reaches into the box to partially extract the cards from the box BEFORE dumping them into Penn's open hands.  His hands very cleverly conceal the box at that moment.  He could have slipped in the signed card at that moment.
If for a moment I agree that he replaced the card at that moment, clearly if couldn't have gotten it at the right spot. How then did he reveal it at the end by simply turning over? Penn would've seen any funny stuff if he switched the card in the fan.

@Joshua Robinson there's nothing to break up here. Its just a healthy debate not a duel to the death. :-)
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Re: Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2012, 08:58:34 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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at 4:22, he's just opened the box and he reaches into the box to partially extract the cards from the box BEFORE dumping them into Penn's open hands.  His hands very cleverly conceal the box at that moment.  He could have slipped in the signed card at that moment.
If for a moment I agree that he replaced the card at that moment, clearly if couldn't have gotten it at the right spot. How then did he reveal it at the end by simply turning over? Penn would've seen any funny stuff if he switched the card in the fan.

@Joshua Robinson there's nothing to break up here. Its just a healthy debate not a duel to the death. :-)


I think he could have slipped the card into just the right spot.  In fact, here's a real SIMPLE way to do it, though I doubt ti's what he did.  The second sealed box has only a partial deck, and he's not just slipping in a single card, but several!  It means he's able to find the correct place to slip the cards faster.


Realistically, though, the weight difference would be a giveaway, unless the box was weighted - which just takes things to yet higher levels of farfetchedness.  Simpler to believe, though hard to accomplish, would be that he knew from practice the precise place in which to slip the card.
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Re: Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2012, 11:06:24 AM »
 

NathanCanadas

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Ok, my prototype idea was ridiculous since the card was signed. I think there's a slit in the "sealed" box. That's why when he showed Penn there "wasn't a slit on either side", he did so very quickly. He probably had a method of sliding the card in the right spot with just one hand (I know a gimmick that allows me to do that), then removed the gimmick and covered the slit in one way or another. He then does the deck switch, and voila.

Saurabh, what was your idea?
 

Re: Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2012, 12:13:08 PM »
 

saurabh

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OKAY OKAY OKAY!!! break it up and Saurabh He is using the 8 of Diamonds not the seven and not the 9
All my posts are contextual to the excerpt from 'Fool Us' (link by Alex in the first post)

I think he could have slipped the card into just the right spot.  In fact, here's a real SIMPLE way to do it, though I doubt ti's what he did.  The second sealed box has only a partial deck, and he's not just slipping in a single card, but several!  It means he's able to find the correct place to slip the cards faster.


Realistically, though, the weight difference would be a giveaway, unless the box was weighted - which just takes things to yet higher levels of farfetchedness.  Simpler to believe, though hard to accomplish, would be that he knew from practice the precise place in which to slip the card.

Don, nothing but respect for you. But I have to disagree here. If you look at the moment he opens the seal the mimes the cup, his right hand is palm up, i.e. empty for sure. He could have the card copped in his left hand but that would have to be a very bold load and Penn would have definitely spotted it. After the trick, Penn (well Teller doesn't speak) said that they caught the deck switch. But what they couldn't understand was how he resealed the deck with the card inside.

Considering that they have used the 'load' theory a bunch of times on the series (including for Brynolf & Ljung) they would have given it a shot if it had any merit.

I'll post my theory in a separate post to avoid clutter.
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Re: Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2012, 12:42:38 PM »
 

saurabh

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Ok, my prototype idea was ridiculous since the card was signed. I think there's a slit in the "sealed" box. That's why when he showed Penn there "wasn't a slit on either side", he did so very quickly. He probably had a method of sliding the card in the right spot with just one hand (I know a gimmick that allows me to do that), then removed the gimmick and covered the slit in one way or another. He then does the deck switch, and voila.

Saurabh, what was your idea?
I agree with you here Nathan. My theory follows your essential idea that he had a slit. Although a gimmick would not be feasible since the pack including the box was handed to P&T for inspection after the trick.

My theory is based completely on observation and behavioral patterns in the course of the effect. I could be very far off, but what the heck, I'll post what I think.

There are three moments in particular which I noticed.
1.) When Shawn is showing the sealed box to Penn to stress that it is sealed, there is a slight glitch in Penn's response. He looks at the top and vehemently proclaims 'There is not'
Next he looks at the bottom in the same pace but misses a beat. His confidence, although there is slightly down. and he goes for a meek 'Not that I can see'. And uses the same phrase for the other sides.

Now there is an anomaly here.
It is natural for a human to use the same tone and sometimes the same phrasing to convey the same emotion if it is to be said again and again. Penn has a sharp change of tone and phrase b/w the top and bottom of the box and uses the same phrase for all the other sides except the last one (a simple no is acceptable).
This means there was something different which changed his tone.

What I conclude from this is that there was something different that caused a change of mood. There was perhaps a slit on the bottom or the cello looked 'stuck'. But Penn didn't really point it out because he thought it was a slight aberration, nothing to make a molehill of.

2.) The second (or chronologically first) moment is when Shawn inserts the 7 into the deck right before he says '...that's the pen.'
Any normal card handler let alone someone as seasoned and learned as Shawn Farquhar does not look at the pack would not really look at the pack in a normal insertion but he looks down for a beat. Then rapidly looks up to gain attention. Now, any card magician looks at the deck only if he wants the spec to look at the deck. So, this makes me feel he didn't do a tilt. It would've been caught and Penn would've seen the steal as a consequence.

He put the card in fairly.

3.) The moment when Penn opens his hands. Notice that the pack is back up, i.e. the Bicycle logo is facing Penn's palm. When he's taking the cards out, the backs of the deck were on the same side as the Bicycle logo.
Ergo, when he inserted the card, he was inserting a face down card into a face up pack.

Conclusion: In conclusion, here's what I think he did.
He forced the card. Had it signed while he switched the pack. The pack was obviously in the box, but had a small slit in the cello at the bottom and the flap somehow held a break at the right position. He covered the box up with a joker to make it look like a real deck.
Then, he inserts the signed card into the break (at the right position), then under the pretext of squaring up, he pressed onto the flap which caused it to dislodge from the break and at the same time, stuck the cello which has some light glue on it. That done, he put the entire apparatus into Penn's hand. Stole the joker as a cleanup. And then, the rest was clockwork.

Tell me what you guys think.
 

Mentalist, Sleight of Hand Artist, Amateur Flourisher.
http://www.brahmaplayingcards.com
 

Re: Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2012, 12:50:56 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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Your theory seems very plausible to me. So far it's the only thing I can think of. At the end he mentions that George Schindler, Dean of American magicians did the same effect but with a different technique. He says that trick inspired him. Does anyone know the trick George Schindler did and/or the technique? It may be helpful in unvailing the secret
 

Re: Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2012, 01:03:48 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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Sorry for the double post. Here's another performance I've found:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFrj8DDM8WE&feature=player_embedded

And you have to read the thread, both pages. Shawn Farquahar himself prooves our theory wrong. Apparently where were were coming from is George Schindler's version of the effect.
http://www.learnmagictricks.org/forum/showthread.php?t=28571

They also discuss it a bit @ the Magic Cafe without actually revealing it.
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=426965&forum=218
 

Re: Is this trick suddenly not as impressive now?
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2012, 01:38:00 PM »
 

saurabh

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For the sake of uniformity, I think I'll stick to my theory. Only instead of the flap holding a break, it was probably the 6 and 8 of diamonds.
Mentalist, Sleight of Hand Artist, Amateur Flourisher.
http://www.brahmaplayingcards.com