Author (Read 6510 times)

codehog · « **on:** May 06, 2012, 07:15:45 AM »

Great site and thanks in advance for your input. I am new here and have been reading the topics and comments here for quite a while. I have had a completely new design idea that has been banging for a long time in my head and wanted to throw it out to hear your reaction before I take it to the next step.

We have all seen different shaped decks, and thought hmmm, nahh, or not bad, or, only if its free. Round decks, ovals etc...etc....

I made my design on: easy to hold, children can use this with no problem, never have to worry about dropping a card, easy to fan.

My question is: is it taboo to change the physical shape and destined for failure before it even gets out of the box, or go for it and see what the reaction is.

Thanks,

JJH

Don Boyer · « **Reply #1 on:** May 06, 2012, 08:38:59 AM »

Quote from: codehog on May 06, 2012, 07:15:45 AM

Great site and thanks in advance for your input. I am new here and have been reading the topics and comments here for quite a while. I have had a completely new design idea that has been banging for a long time in my head and wanted to throw it out to hear your reaction before I take it to the next step.

We have all seen different shaped decks, and thought hmmm, nahh, or not bad, or, only if its free. Round decks, ovals etc...etc....

I made my design on: easy to hold, children can use this with no problem, never have to worry about dropping a card, easy to fan.

My question is: is it taboo to change the physical shape and destined for failure before it even gets out of the box, or go for it and see what the reaction is.

Thanks,

JJH

By and large, custom deck shapes tend to be viewed as novelty items. Rectangular cards are the most popular for a good reason - they're the simplest to handle. It's not necessarily taboo, but it's not something most collectors would have much interest in. It's not impossible that your uniquely-shaped cards would become a big hit, but I wouldn't get my hopes too high of that happening.

codehog · « **Reply #2 on:** May 06, 2012, 12:59:30 PM »

Thanks for the quick reply,

I am going to proceede with caution, but would like to throw out ideas and get your reaction to them. I appreciate your honest opinion.

JJH

xela · « **Reply #3 on:** May 06, 2012, 01:29:14 PM »

Simply put, you can have amazing financial success just not really in the magic and flourishing markets. We have the "pros" lambasting use of even Bridge-sized decks. That's a totally standard deck size right there and is much easier for beginners to handle.

However, a good novelty deck can make more than any poker-sized deck. Kickstarter folk may or may not be eager to invest in your idea. Of course it all depends on execution and innovation.

Keep sharing ideas and we'll give you feedback as best we can.

codehog · « **Reply #4 on:** May 06, 2012, 04:42:24 PM »

Hey Alex,

Thanks for your reply, I hope this doesn´t fall flat on its face. Or as Don put it "bring out more pine for another coffin", but I respect your advice. I am a card player, inventor, but have never tried, except for now to invent cards. I will be cutting these out on Monday and posting pictures for a critique. I will just be using blank card stock so please don´t think that I have a completed project yet. I am hoping that if the idea flies, (or at lest hovers for a short time) some of my friends or perhaps someone here can help with design. The case is unique as well, as you will soon see. The final result is I hope we can put it on KS.

Don, Good advice about checking out the fees that KS and others in line charge....including the state and fed taxes.

I added up the success projects for a year with KS and multiplied by 5%......wow. wish I would of come up with that idea.

More tomarrow, more likely posting pics on Tuesday.

JJH

Don Boyer · « **Reply #5 on:** May 07, 2012, 12:01:52 AM »

Quote from: codehog on May 06, 2012, 04:42:24 PM

Hey Alex,

Thanks for your reply, I hope this doesn´t fall flat on its face. Or as Don put it "bring out more pine for another coffin", but I respect your advice. I am a card player, inventor, but have never tried, except for now to invent cards. I will be cutting these out on Monday and posting pictures for a critique. I will just be using blank card stock so please don´t think that I have a completed project yet. I am hoping that if the idea flies, (or at lest hovers for a short time) some of my friends or perhaps someone here can help with design. The case is unique as well, as you will soon see. The final result is I hope we can put it on KS.

Don, Good advice about checking out the fees that KS and others in line charge....including the state and fed taxes.

I added up the success projects for a year with KS and multiplied by 5%......wow. wish I would of come up with that idea.

More tomarrow, more likely posting pics on Tuesday.

JJH

I see you HAVE been reading up on other topics!

Alex does have a point about novelty cards. The only issue from there is knowing how many to make, and finding a print company to do the job. I know USPC is capable of handling custom shapes, but I imagine the fees are horrific.

That's very important - having an accurate quote from a reliable printer. You'd only be guessing at what you need without that. Ask Rajas Paranjpe - he's the owner of Brahma Playing Cards and participates in the forums - but you probably already know that!

codehog · « **Reply #6 on:** May 07, 2012, 01:34:44 PM »

Thanks Don,

Taking a break from design.

If I do this I am not going to rush it, or do a shoddy job and throw it to the wolves before it even has a chance. I will definitely do the uspcc with a fine finish. The costs will be higher than normal and it will cut into the profits, but, to me it is more important getting the product out through KS. Costs can be made up after the launch of the idea from sales off the web once the die has been cast. First things first, is get this past all the critiques here. Any one up to receiving in the mail a blank 52 trial proto. Give it a shuffle, fan, hold em, throw them and then write a review here of how it went.

The trial is thick paper stock with a sprayed lacquer finish.....sorry that’s all I have for now, but it is enough once you see it.

JJH

moonexe · « **Reply #7 on:** May 07, 2012, 03:05:33 PM »

Quote from: codehog on May 07, 2012, 01:34:44 PM

Any one up to receiving in the mail a blank 52 trial proto. Give it a shuffle, fan, hold em, throw them and then write a review here of how it went.

The trial is thick paper stock with a sprayed lacquer finish.....sorry that’s all I have for now, but it is enough once you see it.

The idea being to see how the shape affects handling, I would think? If the finish is slippery enough to allow any fanning at all, then it's a great idea to start with as prototype like this.
I wouldnt mind doing it, but being in Canada the shipping would hardly be worth it so I'll have to pass.

Just to have an idea though... Just how different is it from a regular poker deck?

NathanCanadas · « **Reply #8 on:** May 07, 2012, 04:02:01 PM »

I am really wondering what shape would allow cards to handle well an look nice at the same time. I think this could be a great idea. Welcome to the forums, and good luck!

codehog · « **Reply #9 on:** May 07, 2012, 08:12:41 PM »

Nathan and Moon,

In my younger years (I am now over 50) I traveled with a magician and learned about cards. Who knows how many decks I bought finding the right ones for me. This deck, which was in research all today, is not rectangular, it is standard height, and comes with a clasp/key chain to attach easily to your back pack, while in the box or out. As far as fanning goes my 5 year old can fan with it. I am not sure about the name but it will evolve the same time as the face design does.....trek deck, something along those lines. Can´t wait to post pics tomarrow......who knows what the pack will say about it. I am a director of a school in Guatemala and am looking for extra funding for the kids here.

JJH

codehog · « **Reply #10 on:** May 08, 2012, 12:12:24 PM »

Ok, here it goes, as promised.

I am opening myself up to incredible criticism but so what. The idea is simple from the design. The case will also have a hole in it which will serve to attach a carabiner that can be attached to a back pack or school bag, or whatever. Where ever you go, across town or country you can take your deck. If the case opens the cards will not fly out. Once out of the case it is obvious that the hole serves as a place for the pads of your fingers to fan the deck incredible easy. You can also simply bend your index finger in the hole and fan away. Never have to worry about dropping them either. For children learning to hold the cards there is no other deck like this. Because the radius is from the center hole it fans to a perfect circle. Picking a card from another hand is also easier because there is less card stock under the corner so they bend out easier to grab the card. Who played what card is a cinch because they point to the person who played it. Solitaire takes on a cool look as well. It looked good on paper so After making a few samples I was hooked and decided to pursue it.....but you guys and gals have the final word. The carabiner is going to be stamped with the words Trek Deck or I will cast some rubber (I use smooth-on products) of different neon color rings with the words Trek Deck and place on the carabiner as part of the incentive. It is going to have to have some very convincing art work.

Fire away....and thanks ahead of time for taking time to comment.

JJH

NathanCanadas · « **Reply #11 on:** May 08, 2012, 02:51:02 PM »

That's a pretty smart idea! Would you plan on having a custom back design? Problem is: how would you get these printed? And the box made? And because of the one way, these would be hard to use for magic, poker, or flourishing...

codehog · « **Reply #12 on:** May 08, 2012, 10:37:01 PM »

Hello NathanCanadas,

Good questions and to be honest I do not know....however I have some ideas but nothing solid. Everything about it is custom so far. I live in a country where over half the population makes only $10.00 per month. So it would be great to do some employment here, at least on some level. There are some companies that do castings to stamp cut metal and paper products that I am planning on exploring. I could order the sheets in the states, ship them here to cut. If that does not work out then I am looking at the price going higher and higher. I want to keep the quality up and not have to resort to Indian or pvc cards that have sliding, and other quality issues. The center of the box where the hole is placed will have to be reinforced. I think others are waiting to respond, but what is your reaction to the project.....if the details can be worked out. I am out of the loop for many things especially when It comes to lingo. What did you mean by flourishing. I am trying to kick this project off by Christmas...I doubt It will come together before then and perhaps not by then....There is much to do.

Russell CircleCityCards · « **Reply #13 on:** May 09, 2012, 01:13:34 AM »

Quote from: NathanCanadas on May 08, 2012, 02:51:02 PM

And because of the one way, these would be hard to use for magic, poker, or flourishing...

That's not even an issue... would you complain that the ESP decks are hard to flourish with?

DIFFERENT AUDIENCE.

--- edit ---
Mods: Can we have a daily post limit installed? I'm only 1/2 joking.

moonexe · « **Reply #14 on:** May 09, 2012, 02:29:33 AM »

I actually like that idea, the unusual shape and especially the holes could allow for very interesting art.
~~Can we be partners?~~

It's just an idea, but you could make it two-way with a shape like the picture I attached; I think it would make shuffling and general handling much easier, especially if you intend to play games with it.
Plus it looks cool.

(Oh, and having the hole a little further from the edge would probably make the cards more durable as well)
Would the cards be plastic or paper?

As far as design goes, I'd be happy to volunteer if you'd like. I have a friend in Guatemala, I've heard a little about the situation there... If the project helps the kids, it'll be my pleasure.

codehog · « **Reply #15 on:** May 09, 2012, 11:06:58 AM »

Hello Moon,

This project is bigger than me so I will be looking for people to participate but first things first and that is to hear all the comments I can, to see if the changes that need to be made to satisfy the critics will not destroy the project.

I think the audience will be different than magicians and serious poker players. For them there is nothing like a deck like we have seen succeed very well on KS. This audience is for the traveler, the novice, the person who always wants something to do with their friends when there is a spare moment after lunch or waiting for the next project to start.

I am ruining yet another deck to experiment with hole size and position. The reason I chose the location for the hole was to accept the caribiner. If you make the hole it too far from the edge then the deck will not fall to the bottom of the caribiner but will become cocked and will scuff the finish inside the hole, which is all the edges of the cards. The other option is to change the carabiner size. They even make round ones so that is not out of the question. Yes, there could be different styles of trek decks for the different styles of people. One thing I noticed and you were right when you said the hole allows for some really cool art work.

The hole is unique.....except in westerns where the card is shot with a colt 44......hmmm, interesting video idea. OK, back to reality. There is the issue of copy right and patents which I hope could be covered from sales. Thanks to the changing rules in the uspto, once the idea is out in the U.S. and Canada you have 1 years to file. For me no problem, I just want to see if the idea will slide.

I don't want the hole to be used for a nail for another coffin project...... Don, that was a cool phrase you used a while back, hopefully you will not use it on this one. Only time will tell.

JJH

moonexe · « **Reply #16 on:** May 09, 2012, 02:08:57 PM »

Quote from: codehog on May 09, 2012, 11:06:58 AM

I think the audience will be different than magicians and serious poker players. For them there is nothing like a deck like we have seen succeed very well on KS. This audience is for the traveler, the novice, the person who always wants something to do with their friends when there is a spare moment after lunch or waiting for the next project to start.

That's what I had in mind of course. I think we should all understand that by now - although I'm not sure about Nathan.

Quote from: codehog on May 09, 2012, 11:06:58 AM

I am ruining yet another deck to experiment with hole size and position. The reason I chose the location for the hole was to accept the caribiner. If you make the hole it too far from the edge then the deck will not fall to the bottom of the caribiner but will become cocked and will scuff the finish inside the hole, which is all the edges of the cards. The other option is to change the carabiner size. They even make round ones so that is not out of the question.

Hmm you're right, I wasn't considering the size of the carabiner. Though even with the hole closer to the edge, the shape I posted allows it to have more material on the sides rather than just a thin ring shape. The edge would be thin, but it would have more support around it.
If an asymmetric shape is important to you, something in-between would also work - though the problem with an asymmetric shape is that it would be harder to play with as you would have to flip each card the right way in order to use the hole.

Oh, and while the title of the thread mentions thinking outside the box, I think we're doing more here - thinking through the box.

codehog · « **Reply #17 on:** May 10, 2012, 08:17:46 AM »

Hello again,

Does anyone have any experience with actega for applying coatings for playing card applications?

I also found some stateside stamping companies with for specialty shapes. I will be checking out. one is called pfl....we will see and I will let you know here.

JJH

codehog · « **Reply #18 on:** May 10, 2012, 02:24:49 PM »

Ok, PFL does stamping work for many different products, calendars, business cards...etc... They did mention that they have playing card paper products but I am not getting my hopes up as to quality. They are sending price quotes to me and I will pass the info on when I have it.

I am wondering if I can order uncut printed sheets from USPCC and send the bulk to Montanna for processing.

Has anyone tried this before?

Any other reaction to the project so far.

JJH

moonexe · « **Reply #19 on:** May 10, 2012, 04:58:32 PM »

It's probably never been done before so I think the best way to know would be contacting USPC directly.
customdivision@usplayingcard.com
Don't forget to mention the reason behind it, they'd probably be more likely to make a deal if there's more to it than just not using their service.

As for the coating, I'm pretty confident no South-American company could compare to USPC's quality.

codehog · « **Reply #20 on:** May 10, 2012, 10:34:42 PM »

hey moon,

You may be right about them not receiving many requests for just printed pages. I did write them but was amazed to learn they only take orders for 5000 decks or more for custom orders. i may be wrong on that, anyway it will be interesting to see how uspcc handles this.

The other company in Montana is also sending out a quote, they sounded very eager to help because i have another KS project ready to go when the get me the quote....special calendar project. When I have the stamping prices fixed i will start on the custom design. Writting this on my cell phone so sorry for the errors.

codehog · « **Reply #21 on:** May 14, 2012, 08:44:16 AM »

Hello Everyone,

Hope you had a great weekend, I talked on Friday to a group of printers and they also do stamping and work with people on graphic designs. They are in the States. I sent them the shape so that they can do the arrangement of placing the cards for stamping. They will let me know today on the price, and I will pass it on when I hear from them, hopefully today. I wrote uspcc several days ago but have not heard anything from them. It seems most companies want to handle the project from start to finish and not have it broken up, perhaps this is why I have not heard back from uspcc.

JJH

codehog · « **Reply #22 on:** May 16, 2012, 10:10:36 AM »

Well, still noting from USPCC or the printing company that produces playing cards in Montanna.

I did recently talk to my contact and he assured me that he is "working on it" Frustrating, but this is perhaps too novel for the big boys who are already making all they can on standard decks. On the other front, friends are joining this project for video and graphics.

The theme is going to be travel with an eco-friendly case. I am working on a way to have the case unfold for a card holder to keep the cards from falling out while on that long bus trip or in a car......but we will see. I may be stretching the design on that one. More later, hopefully I will have news from someone today.

JJH

codehog · « **Reply #23 on:** May 16, 2012, 06:45:12 PM »

I heard back from the company in Montanna, like I thought it would just take time. The quote was very reasonable but they are only able to make the deck with lacquer and a uv coating, They gave me quotes with price breaks at around 10,000. I am at a crossroads....this deck will not likely be used for poker, but will have more of a niche market for teens, children, and adults on the go. Thus the idea for the carabiner. They liked the project at the plant but I am concerned with quality.....any suggestions.

JJH

codehog · « **Reply #24 on:** May 19, 2012, 09:35:22 AM »

Designed the case for the cards. It has a tough durable appearance. Diamond plate steel look, with rivets, raised steel letters with 1/8 plate steel reinforced banding on the sides and edges complete with stick welding marks on it.

I do my own mold making and casting products in plastics, and rubber, so the mold start up cost is about $7.00 - $10.00, but the mold can be used for all the run of cases, the hard plastic cases are perfect replicas of the original in metal. From the looks of it the cost per case is about .75 to $1.00. This means that I can offer two types or styles of cases each with a hole for the carabiner without having it effect the goal. One case to accept any regular deck, and do a test run of the acceptance of the specialty novel deck with the tapered appearance set more for children/teens as an incentive.

I will send pictures after I pour one off. At the suggestion of some very wise people here, I am putting the idea of the case with a hole more toward the front of the project and placing problematic tapered deck toward the back.

Jon H.