Crowdfunding: Costs, Marketing, Good Rewards, Etc.

[martinpulido]

By now there have been a number of successful and unsuccessful kickstarter projects for playing cards. I think it would be helpful as we think ahead about future projects if we could consider what works and what does not work for such projects. This would apply both to the designer (did he project his costs well? did he give himself enough fulfillment time?) and to the kickstarters. I admit it is more particularly helpful to me as I am thinking of starting one, but clearly others would benefit from this thread.  5 things that I have wanted to examine are: (1) the costs of card production that the designer needs to keep in mind, (2) setting a price for a deck on KS, (3) reasonable fulfillment times, (4) marketing a KS project, and (5) good rewards to offer beyond decks and uncut sheets.

(1) Costs. As I have been thinking of putting a kickstarter project together, I have wanted to make sure in calculating a goal that I have all of the costs in mind. For a deck of cards, I imagine this to be the basic formula for calculation with fixed/optional costs noted:

Price of Printing a Basic Deck (fixed) + Bicycle Branding of Deck and Other Stock/Ink/Gilding Adds(optional) + Amazon Payment Surcharge (fixed) + Shipping (fixed) + Handling (optional) + Design Labor (optional)

Have I missed anything else? No one wants to be wrong on these things...

I know that there are other costs that the designer needs to keep in mind with other rewards he offers besides uncut sheets. The cost forumula will of course be adjusted somewhat for that.

(2) Price of a Deck. What is a good price for 1 deck of cards (with free US domestic shipping)? I have looked online and the costs fluctuate substantially, so I wanted to know what you guys thought. Obviously, we would love a deck to cost as low as possible when we are buyers, but I wanted to get a price range from you: the low end being what price you would be thrilled about and the high end being what you still thought was reasonable. I think setting this initial cost for 1 deck is crucial, so help here would be appreciated not just for my project, but other projects as well.

To help the discussion, let us assume that the cost is for a 2500 run of bicycle stock cards with magic finish. Obviously, expectations would change for metallic inks, bee card stock (which actually requires a 5000 run from the USPC), gilding, etc., or if the cards were produced at a lower quality than the standard I just set.

(3) Fulfillment Times. How long should a kickstarter expect to wait to receive a deck of cards + whatever rewards he has ordered? I have seen kickstarter projects range from 2.5 - 5 months in this regard, and I wonder if they fulfilled them on time and how hard it was to do so.

The designer I imagine tries to calculate this time based on amazon processing the charges, last minute art changes with the printer, the 4-6 weeks that the USPC claims it will take to fulfill the order, any time on the production of other reward items, and the time it will take him to ship those orders himself (which can be substantial when he has a FT day job). Then he has to leave some buffer room in case something slips. Is there something else I am missing?

Again, to help the discussion, let us assume that the cost is for a 2500 run of bicycle stock cards with magic finish being printed from the USPC.

(4) Marketing. Most of the successful playing card projects have superior designs than those that fail, but this is not always the case initially. Both the Deck of the Living Dead and Ultraviolet failed initially, but then succeeded the second time. The Deck of the Living Dead significantly exceeded its goal the second time. What was the difference? The product was the same (or so I think), so there must have been a difference somewhere else, and here I am thinking it was likely in the marketing. I am curious to know successful methods of marketing a KS project beyond the page and video. How do you drive traffic to your site and convince people to buy? What has proven successful in the past? Clearly, the rewards (see below) is a significant part of the buying side, but it doesn't drive the initial traffic. So we need to think of both how to get buzz and how to get transactions.

(5) Rewards. Besides decks of cards and uncut sheets, what are other rewards that you would find satisfying to receive? Here are some possibilities I thought of for my philosophy deck:

(a) Stickers. As a "reward," I don't think a sticker would ever be an individual item, but they would be conjoined with others, like a deck of cards. Stickers would pretty much be free (1 going in every order), or at least in every order of $10 or more. I am imagining this could add a, "Oh, isn't that thoughtful and nice" reaction, but maybe I am wrong. Is this thought worth it? Here is a 2.5" x 2.5" round sticker I have thought of including (in different color options, which affect the cost of printing them):



These stickers pun on Plato's/Socrates' idea in the Republic that the state should be ruled by philosopher kings. By putting it in the burger king format, I am showing what most philosophers have got to do with their training instead.

(b) Postcards. Looking at the successful playing card kickstarter projects, it is notable that pretty much all rewards under $4 garner hardly any pledges. The rewards have been thank yous and digital proofs, and people don't seem to care for that. The question is whether people aren't really willing to pledge for less than a deck of cards, or if the rewards being offered just aren't good enough. I wonder if, say, 1-3 postcards (maybe with a sticker) was rewarded for a pledge of $2-3, would these pledges be more popular? The postcard could be art from the tuckbox or the card backs or even something else. To help visualize:



Do you think anyone would pledge a lower amount for such rewards?

(c) Posters. These have worked sometimes, and other times they have not on Kickstarter. Sometimes it seems pretty clear it is do the boring design, but other times it is not so clear. Is it the cost of the poster or the quality of the print, or something else? What do you think--are posters good ideas and what makes them work?




(d) T shirts. These are pretty rare in the playing card kickstarter projects. In fact, as far I know, only Blue Blood and Deck of the Living Dead have done so (feel free to correct me). The shirts were both very simply:




The shirt pledges did seem to go okay, being offered for $85+/$56+ pledges, with 19 pledges getting Blue Blood shirts and 35 getting Deck of the Living Dead shirts. So they were more premium items, but this is justified due to the high cost of making shirts with low quantities. Do you think shirts are a nice addition? I had designed some philosophy themed shirts in the past that I thought might be cool for this project. Most have a dadaist style that captures important concepts of their philosophy.










(e) Card Clips. I have seen at least two projects (The Grid being one) where card clips are offered and they "sold"/were pledged for quite successfully. Were these a novelty item that people might now be burnt out on (they are no longer new, or everyone now has one, so what-ev), or is it something that continues to appeal to kickstarters today?



(f) Miscellaneous. Is there anything else that has worked well or might?

Thanks for enduring this long post, but I hope it will help us better understand the nuances playing card Kickstarter projects. I look forward to your contributions!

[NathanCanadas]

I agree with all of the points you've made. However, I think that you should perhaps also focus on the "card" aspect as much as the "philosopher" one for the t-shirts. The advantage with your deck over many others is that it can be appreciated both by card users, art lovers AND people interested by philosophy, while other decks only have the first two clients. Also, I think that some of the small additional items (postcards, stickers etc.) shouldn't be sold on their own, they should be an initiative to increase your pledge (add 2$ for a postcard, or every plege above 10$ will have a free sticker, or something along those lines). For me, a reasonable pricing for a deck is 4-12$. The only excuse I find for a deck to be 8-12$ though is if there is an impossibility for the creator to price it any lower (this is the case with kickstarter because of the very high fees).

[Don Boyer]

Don't worry about low-pledge prizes that are anything other than digitally delivered.  You'll get creamed in shipping costs and time spent managing them.  Alex was telling us that on the Vortex deck, he lost money on all the two- and one-deck orders.  But he used them as loss leaders to get bigger investors in - THAT is what you should focus on.  Find stores that specialize in philosophy-releated merchandise or selling in colleges, give them a sweetheart deal for a LARGE order.  Without large investors, you'll flounder.  Alex had some, but a percentage of those deals did NOT take place on the Kickstarter site.  Be flexible.


Posters (a.k.a. art prints) are good, inexpensive and easily shipping if folded.  Good choice.  Make a couple of cheap ones and one or two NICE ones that go in tubes and are meant for framing - calculate the added shipping cost before offering!


T-shirts are attractive, but don't always garner enough interest.  Might not be worth the trouble setting them up.


Postcards were never a big draw for me, and neither will they be for most of your investors.  (Unless you call them "mini art prints!")


The Eco card clip is the one clip that people have been clamoring for.  The reason they're so popular is that in recent history, it's been impossible to get one other than through a Kickstarter project.  As you've noticed, most a specialized to promote a specific deck.  Should you go this route, try a simple, generic clip.  BUT this are not likely to be a big deal on this project unless people are still that desperate that they'll invest not for the deck but for the clip - and that could be the case!  It's just not something that appeals to anyone but people who use cards A LOT, like magicians and cardists, and most magicians would likely not use such an ornate deck unless they had a specific trick with a story about philosophers in it.  Cardists - maybe, maybe not.  You have very attractive card backs, and that works in your favor.  Adding plain Eco clips - and you'd be the first to do so - could prove popular.


The biggest issue with Eco clips is this: the supplier is having a hard time meeting the demand.  Most Eco clip rewards are backlogged.  Contact Rob Butler at conjuringcreations.com to inquire.

[hazofhorsham]

The only cost I can think of that you haven't listed is tax on reselling. I don't know the first thing about this - but I remember Paul from Encarded had to get a certificate or something for tax reasons (I think at least, best to ask him, but I may be mistaken).

In terms of rewards, stickers are great. But don't brag about them. I've seen kickstarters that offer similar things and say things like "One deck of amazing djfhdjfhdjfhd cards and ONE FREE AMAZING STICKER" and I am left with the reaction; "Stickers; who cares". However Ive bought from other places and I open the package and get a sticker I am like "Wow, this is cool, where can I put it". The point is, having a sticker is a nice extra - but not a USP. If you make it sound like you think its amazing people think its lame, if you just chuck it in, its a cool addition. And if people stick it somewhere decent in their room, it'll remind them when the glance at it that you make decent cards.

The thing I will say about posters and things like that is that quite frankly, I don't get them. Well I sort of do, but I don't. Having an uncut sheet is a really cool and unique thing. Any uncut sheet is cool. But posters aren't a unique thing - there is nothing special about them. For posters to be successful the buyer has to really buy unto the design or the company. If you design a deck of cards that people fall in love with - a really powerful deck, then people will want a poster because loving the cards means loving your company, and they'll want to show it off. But unless you can create a deck the inspires people posters are at best a novelty. If they are cheap ($5-$15) people may want one - but people have limited wall space, and so people who collect cards couldn't possible have a poster for everyone and again you need a really powerful deck to get that wall space.

The eco clips are a good idea. If you are thinking of ideas for nice rewards eco clips are great because people get a use from them. They keep the deck in nice shape and look good.

The t-shirts, a bit like the posters but better. You don't really have a limit of how many t-shirts you will wear, however people are very funny about their style. I bought from a great company, just a plain white shirt with a burning ace of spades on it. It goes with a lot, I wear it under a shirt and it suits me if I am doing magic. However, just having the company name or a deck name would bother me. I'd like a designed shirt not a logo one. If you check out BBM they have there joker on a shirt - Jokers are probably the most customizable cards in the deck - if you make a super sexy joker, anyone who likes your deck will love it. You could also maybe put a reveal on the shirt, so you do a trick and slap the cards to your chest and there is their card. Or maybe put the ace of spades on the front and the back of the card on the back? Just some ideas its up to you. But remember anything about your t-shirts will look their best when the person wearing it has your cards in their hands. If you are going to make a 2500 run most people won't perform with the cards. Bear that in mind, but still if you design an awesome shirt of like a face card or something, people will enjoy.

Postcards, just another little accessory that I think is nice but like the stickers its not a major thing. If your deck is fully customized and you had 4 postcards of the 4 aces that'd be cool. Like a little set that is significant to your cards. But again watch the price.

Perhaps a wrist band? Make a nice colour with your website and a sort of card theme and this would go over well. It can do what a t-shirt is meant to do but isn't as intrusive. Its nice and subtle and looks cool. Magicians always have stuff on their arms. I have a watch, a hair band, rubber bands, a paper clip. And wear them all the time. If I got a wrist band with a deck and it wasn't too much more I'd wear it.

Gaff cards, with a deck you normally only get 1 or 2 gaff cards, any more you sacrifice the jokers and purist and card collectors like the two jokers (I do at least), Some get around this my having a joker reveal, or an add card reveal. But if you could make like 3 extra gaff cards as well as 2 inside the deck you are talking about some ultimate leverage over other decks. Because with 2 gaff cards you are very limited. You can probably do a reveal and a colour change. But with five - I mean you could have a colour change gaff, fallen pips gaff, reveal gaff, double printed card gaff, so many different tricks. Search youtube for the Ellusionist gaff decks in action - see the affect gaff cards can have and the more the better. The issue with gaff cards is that once you've shown a group of people it's over. I use burgundy bikes a lot and they have a 6D reveal on the box flaps. I show people the trick and they are like - SHOW ME AGAIN. And I can't. 5 gaff cards would blow any other deck out there out of the water for magicians and would elevate your deck.

A voucher for your next deck perhaps?

Signed stuff. Don't make signed decks a reward, do that on request. I know that seems harsh but unless your an amazing company your deck won't hold that respect. I've a signed Spectrum and its great, I like the fact the designers took time to sign it. But the autograph isn't that special. However a David Blaine deck is worth more signed, because you can be like you know that world famous magician? I have HIS deck with his AUTOGRAPH to ME. This isn't to say that signed art work or other things don't go down well. I personally believe with a kickstarter 2 decks and 1 uncut sheet should be able to be signed for no charge at all (by request, don't sign every one). Like the free stickers, its all about building that report. I have pledged on kickstarter before just because I've loved the guy making it. I've also cancelled on great decks because I disliked the guys. Building a good relationship with these extras goes a long way.

Custom brick boxes?

One thing I would really like to see more off are the tiny extras (stickers and wristbands already mentioned). But you know like those little accessories that go with the deck, I think it was skulkor who put out a ring? I've seen decks with guitar picks. I don't play guitar but wouldn't mind a pick. Have fun and get creative.

Price per deck. $5, thrilled. Maximum $10. I think the important thing is that there are a lot of decks coming and going, anything in this range is good because it's not killer but it should cover your costs.

Shipping: I am going to recommend you do like a $1.50/$2 shipping charge on all decks. This is because  most people wont break at the extra charge and it means that international customers don't get a raw deal/ feel like they are. The amount of times I've seen a kickstarter and its like $8-$9 a deck with $7 shipping and you definitely feel like you are paying twice, which also sucks because everyone in the states gets in free.  If you charge $1.75 overall you need 80% of your customers to be in the states for you not to lost any more than with the free USA shipping and $7 international. If you charge $2 you can have less USA customers. I know it may seem unfair on domestic shipping but bear this in mind.

Overall the message is give as much for as little, make things unique to avoid competing with other decks, be honest and creative. Try to maximise the use of everything you give.

[Don Boyer]

Shipping: I am going to recommend you do like a $1.50/$2 shipping charge on all decks. This is because  most people wont break at the extra charge and it means that international customers don't get a raw deal/ feel like they are. The amount of times I've seen a kickstarter and its like $8-$9 a deck with $7 shipping and you definitely feel like you are paying twice, which also sucks because everyone in the states gets in free.  If you charge $1.75 overall you need 80% of your customers to be in the states for you not to lost any more than with the free USA shipping and $7 international. If you charge $2 you can have less USA customers. I know it may seem unfair on domestic shipping but bear this in mind.

You do realize he'd lose a LOT of money shipping internationally that cheap, right?  The least expensive option to ship a single deck from the US to the UK is International First Class, without any added features like tracking and such, not even insurance.  Even in an envelope, it would qualify as a package due to the rigidity of the box inside - envelopes are meant for soft, bendy things like a t-shirt or a small stack of papers, maybe a magazine or something.  That makes a 5-ounce package (approx. 3.3 ounces plus packaging) cost SIX DOLLARS AND TWELVE CENTS.  Two decks?  Assuming ten ounces of decks and packaging, that's over ten dollars in shipping.  Shaving an ounce off in packing materials doesn't even change the price - it's $10.03 either way.

There's a very valid reason why people charge what they charge for international shipping...  Domestic orders are cheaper to ship because, well - THEY'RE CHEAPER TO SHIP!  They're not traveling as far in most cases, they don't have to go through Customs...  What did you expect?  Charging as low as you suggest would destroy all his potential profit and put him in debt!  And I'm not even factoring in the dramatic increase he'd have in overseas demand for charging so little.  The guys at TBC/HOPC tell me they're literally shocked at how many orders they received for the Crown deck from the Pacific Rim alone, never mind Europe.

Personally, you might love paying so little for international shipping from the states, but charging that little makes the worst possible business sense.

[Utterfool]

To add on to what Don just said.
The majority of your backers are going to be US backers and if you make them add on shipping to their pledge many of them will actually think twice about pledging (especially if you charge $1.50 -$2.00/ per deck as I believe hazofhorsham suggested) I know I wouldn't back at that cost. The people who are use to paying the extra shipping are the people who buy from abroad, these are the backers that won't blink at having to add the extra money for shipping (even if thye may not like it)
The price you charge for a deck should be lower than what people would expect to pay for that deck at retail, they are making a investment in you and your product that doesn't exist yet, if they expected to pay retail price they would be better off waiting until the deck existed and they saw reviews of how it really looks and handles. I suggest $7.00 for pledges of only a couple of decks and $5.00 for pledges 10 or greater.

Fulfillment time I think 3 months should be a fair time frame.
But what I think is most important is keeping in touch with your backers and letting them know where you are at each step of the process. If there is a set back at USPCC and they will be late, let them know. Always update the backers and they will be good if you have to push that time to 3.5 - 4 months. This happened with "The Deck of The Living Dead" they had to  adjust their design and lost their printing slot, they let there backers know right away and everyone was happy.

Premiums
uncuts- yes
stickers- sure, but I agree with hazofhorsham just throw them in, maybe mention them and show them, but don't make a big deal of them.
Tshirts- your designs look great, I actually prefer you going more with the philosopher and less with the card aspect with these and I think you can use this to sell your design and get pledges from non card collectors. However Shirts are not often big sellers with card collectors and it may not be cheap to do small runs of shirts, I am pretty sure both Blue Blood and Deck of the living Dead had their own printing presses and did them themselves.
Card clips- not with your deck. I agree with Don here, I don't think your deck is going to appeal to Magicians and possibly not to cardistry people. So the interest in the card clip may not be as strong with the people who pledge your deck
Prints- This falls into the same thing as the T-shirts. I usually don't like playing card prints ( I am getting 2 with my grid deck because they came in the same pledge as the uncut sheet and I have no clue what to do with them) But prints from your deck might have appeal to more than just card collectors. If you do them well you might be able to get history and philosophy people to pledge for prints and Tshirts (Hipsters will probably pledge for the Philosophy King Tshirt as well)
low pledge level are probably not needed, they are put there for the people who like to pledge a dollar or two on just about every project just to show support, rewards are certainly not needed at these levels, especially ones that ship out (as Don said the cost would be killer)
Other premiums suggestions
-dealers coin with good and evil/ right and wrong or something else philosphical on each side.
- card box- this could turn out to be a beautiful deck and one that would be of interest to more than just card collectors (as I said magicians and cardists may not be interested)  a limited wooden card box would be a nice premium. Something for fancy display that would look good in the library near your philosophy books. A box similar to the one that was done for Seasons.


I don't have too much advice/input on costs, not having done one of these myself. What you put seemed reasonable.

[Don Boyer]

To riff on Utterfool's box idea - it would be wicked-cool to have a "collector's box" with the deck inside (or two of them) in the shape of a major philosophical work (in dummy terms, a book)!  It sits innocuously on your bookshelf, waiting to be used for that Friday Night game against the math majors!  It doesn't even have to be wooden - you could trim costs by carving out actual books, much like you sometimes see in the movies with people converting Bibles and other tomes into stash boxes for weapons, cash, etc.  Paperbacks or ancient used textbooks that are no longer current might work nicely.

(Somewhere in there is a joke about superposition and that blasted cat that people babble about in conversations but really are clueless and trying to sound smart for the girls in the Psych Department...) 

The "recipe" for making such holdouts is pretty simple.  Figure out the desired thickness and grab about that many pages from the center of the book.  Use VERY THIN layers of school glue to make the pages into a "block" of paper.  Use a hand jigsaw to cut out a space in the size/dimensions desired.  Check that your "stash" (the deck{s}) isn't sticking out of the sheaf of glued pages - if it is, glue some more down and cut to fit.  Glue more pages at the bottom to form the bottom of the stash space, and you're done - one cool premium to go with a pack or two of cards!  (As the glue is drying, use pressure to keep the pages from warping on you.)

[Utterfool]

To riff on Utterfool's box idea - it would be wicked-cool to have a "collector's box" with the deck inside (or two of them) in the shape of a major philosophical work (in dummy terms, a book)!  It sits innocuously on your bookshelf, waiting to be used for that Friday Night game against the math majors!  It doesn't even have to be wooden - you could trim costs by carving out actual books, much like you sometimes see in the movies with people converting Bibles and other tomes into stash boxes for weapons, cash, etc.  Paperbacks or ancient used textbooks that are no longer current might work nicely.

(Somewhere in there is a joke about superposition and that blasted cat that people babble about in conversations but really are clueless and trying to sound smart for the girls in the Psych Department...) 

The "recipe" for making such holdouts is pretty simple.  Figure out the desired thickness and grab about that many pages from the center of the book.  Use VERY THIN layers of school glue to make the pages into a "block" of paper.  Use a hand jigsaw to cut out a space in the size/dimensions desired.  Check that your "stash" (the deck{s}) isn't sticking out of the sheaf of glued pages - if it is, glue some more down and cut to fit.  Glue more pages at the bottom to form the bottom of the stash space, and you're done - one cool premium to go with a pack or two of cards!  (As the glue is drying, use pressure to keep the pages from warping on you.)

Though this idea is awesome and I may do it for these decks if they are ever made,  I don't know if it is realistic for a kickstarter project. The kind of box made from an actual book would have to be a super limited release because of the time it takes to make. when I was saying limited I meant like 1 - 2 hundred not 1 -2. Although the faux book idea is brilliant and I am sure you can find a box maker to make collector card boxes in that shape.

[Don Boyer]

Though this idea is awesome and I may do it for these decks if they are ever made,  I don't know if it is realistic for a kickstarter project. The kind of box made from an actual book would have to be a super limited release because of the time it takes to make. when I was saying limited I meant like 1 - 2 hundred not 1 -2. Although the faux book idea is brilliant and I am sure you can find a box maker to make collector card boxes in that shape.

You can make limited rewards, and simply price them just high enough to get attention.  The fact that it's there alone would generate some buzz for the deck!

[hazofhorsham]

You do realize he'd lose a LOT of money shipping internationally that cheap, right?  The least expensive option to ship a single deck from the US to the UK is International First Class, without any added features like tracking and such, not even insurance.  Even in an envelope, it would qualify as a package due to the rigidity of the box inside - envelopes are meant for soft, bendy things like a t-shirt or a small stack of papers, maybe a magazine or something.  That makes a 5-ounce package (approx. 3.3 ounces plus packaging) cost SIX DOLLARS AND TWELVE CENTS.  Two decks?  Assuming ten ounces of decks and packaging, that's over ten dollars in shipping.  Shaving an ounce off in packing materials doesn't even change the price - it's $10.03 either way.

I understand where you are coming from but if you follow my logic the fact it costs $10.03 to ship internationally is moot. What I was saying is that by charging a nominal fee on all decks he would be in the same state as with free domestic shipping. Regardless of whatever prices shipping costs lets say he ships free to the states, and charges $7 international shipping (estimate of course). Now lets assume the deck is a success with 600 backers. 80% from the USA, and 20% from around the world. For all his shipping costs to everywhere he has taken $840 ( International backers * Money for international shipping). Now let's assume he gets rid of the $7 international shipping, and puts in a charge of $2. Whether this comes as a shipping charge or is built into the decks or whatever. Assuming the same percentages - he now gets $2 from every backer, which is $1200. As you've pointed out, he is losing on international costs, but he is minimizing his loss on free domestic shipping. Even if he charges $1.50, he still takes $900. He won't lose any money compared with what he was already looking out.

However I do understand the point about a surge in customers from outside the states if shipping is too low. But I mean it's all about percentages, my maths is correct and if he can fudge the numbers enough it will work. Maybe $2 is too steep as utterfool mentioned but how about whatever the price of the deck add $1.50. Say free domestic shipping and then say $4 international. Lets face it, when people do kickstarter decks they aren't short sighted enough to say it costs $3 a deck, i'll charge $8. Oh man shipping is eating my profits. They say it costs $3 a deck, if I charge $3 a deck to cover a little bit of shipping costs, and then a $2 a deck as profit, count in that to get this I have to beware of 10% charges so to make this I need $9. Then they set a figure around that and add on international shipping. The whole free shipping is rubbish, because the shipping is taken care of in the actual price. Nobody loses overall unless you do a loss leader thing like Alex.

The extra $1.50 will blend into the deck and the $4 international shipping will be countered by that extra $1.50 Even with a surge in international demand he only needs 3x as many USA customers as world wide.  BECAUSE lets say he gets 75% USA, and 25% International (from 600 again). More international have come because shipping is cheaper. Before I showed that the money taken from shipping would be $840. Now he has 480 USA customers paying $1.50 which means $720, and he has 120 international customers paying $4 which means another $480. All in all its $1200. Now the key thing here is that there has been a swing in the international numbers which means shipping costs WILL CHANGE. However you'll have an extra $360 to cover the 5% increase in customers from outside the USA. 5% is a quarter of what you originally had which you allocated $840 to. $360 is more than a quarter and so your as you can see pricing isn't that bad.

All of this are just theoretical figures to prove that my maths was not bad, and that it isn't the worst business and that it wouldn't destroy all his profits. It's based upon the logic that 'guaranteed' you will lose money on shipping by paying for the shipping out of what you take as shipping charges. So you factor in a little bit of money per deck so you don't lost money. Decks have succeeded with the strategy. Nobody calculates to lose money, what is an apparent loss per deck, is made up for through the profit. If you either increase the deck charge, or the shipping charge on domestic shipping you are ADDING to your profit, so when you DECREASE international charges you only lose what you have gained from the extra charges. It's quite simple.

In both cases he gains a little more than previously expected (factored in to account for increase backers, etc). The only thing I did overlook is that as Utterfool mentioned, perhaps an extra $2 will stop people from backing and that made be so. Its all about marketing I suppose. You do what is the best for yourself - I was just making a case for cheaper shipping, not demanding it.

I know about business, and I am good with figures so disagree with me but please don't condescend me. It was merely a suggestion thrown out there. He asked for feedback and I threw in my two cents and then the whole wallet, in the end we are all just spitballing here.

[Don Boyer]

Your basic math is fine, but makes some poor assumptions.  Decks often get more than 20% international orders before accounting for the increased demand based on insanely low shipping fees - your "nominal fee" wouldn't cover the added costs, not to mention the added time spent filling out customs paperwork.  It sucks to have to pay higher shipping, but it is what it is.


Your idea just won't work in the real world.

[Paul Carpenter]

I posted this in the "other place" but there's more talk here.

This is an interesting topic and one that has a lot of mystery shrouded around it. You've broken it down well though, and having just done a successful KS campaign I have some thoughts.

1.) Costs need to be calculated out with precision well in advance. This really is a requirement. All of the data is there but you do have to sit down and figure it ALL out before you put your KS together. To do otherwise only invites disaster. Not only that, but it is impossible to properly construct the campaign and rewards without knowing these costs.

I spent weeks with complex spreadsheets to figure out every possible detail and variable, and guess what? It worked, I covered all my costs and made a nice profit.

Shipping is probably the hardest part to determine. You do not know what percentage of your backers will be international, and the costs for those people are MUCH higher than shipping domestically. Shipping 1 deck within the US is about $2. Doing the same internationally is $8 or more. If you plan out your numbers thinking that, say, 80% of your decks will go within the US and then you find that it's the other way around, you will be royally screwed. Plan accordingly.

Other costs include shipping materials, labels/printers, and the cost to develop and purchase special items or artwork.

2.) Most KS decks are limited items. Generally 2,500 or 5,000 decks. For a limited deck made by a smaller company, I think that the $8-12 range is normal and accepted. Prices lower than that generally come from the bigger names in the industry, and often those are not limited run items. For decks with many fancy features (tuck box features can be far more costly than the actual deck) the price would reflect that extra detail. I think that people generally accept that range.

3.) Fulfillment is hard work. To do it yourself, you simply must be dedicated. No way around that. It is not really that fun, takes a lot of time, and is very expensive. For perspective, it cost me uncomfortably close to 5-figures to ship my deck and related items around the world. If I had a company do that for me, I imagine the costs would be even higher and I would lose the opportunity to include signatures, special items or accommodate people's requests. Speaking only for myself and my approach, I will continue to do fulfillment myself but am carefully structuring things to make that as seamless as possible.

4.) Marketing, like fulfillment, requires dedication and planning. You must start doing it weeks or months before your campaign. You must create interest, instill desire and make people abundantly aware that your thing exists. You will need Facebook (not everyone likes it, but is works) and Twitter, participate in forums and if possible, start your own website. All of those things must be done concurrently and continually, with a humble attitude. Don't act like a used car salesman and don't act like you are the greatest thing to ever appear in the world of cards. Present your stuff plainly, do your best and if what you crafted is quality, the interest will take care of itself.

5.) After doing my campaign, it became pretty clear to me that cards and accessories directly related to cards (mainly talking about card clips) are definitely the important things that people want. Other stuff is barely worth the time. Even highly collectible things like the uncut sheets are not very sought after in comparison to the cards. I would focus on the cards, things that make the cards special (limited editions, signatures, display cases, etc) and everything else is very secondary.


In the end, with proper planning and dedication, Kickstarter is a great place to get started. For me, it worked well and was what I needed to launch my brand. From now on, however, I will self fund and do things the traditional way. KS does add complication, cost and more things to manage so if there is a way to bring your product to market without, it's worth pursuing.

If you want to do a Kickstarter, get your project 100% in order. Have the art done, have everything in place at USPCC, have pictures, videos and descriptions done. Show people that you have created something, it is real, and all it needs is their "pre order." Do all that intelligently and you will find success.

[Paul Carpenter]

To specifically address the shipping part of things, I only have one deck as a data point (though that is more than most of you guys ), but more than half my stock went overseas. The cost of that is huge and if I had not charged what I did for the shipping I would have been up poor-mans-creek.

The collector market in Asia and Europe is huge. I think that to properly construct a Kickstarter you simply have to break it out specifically for US/International and charge accordingly. Trust me, when you are your 700th customs label and paying $10 to send a few decks, you will be thankful that you planned appropriately.

I lost no money on shipping and over 1,000 were happy to pledge. I don't think shipping charges are a disincentive if done reasonably.

[Don Boyer]

Hey, Paul - you could start a division of Encarded that offers planning assistance to deck projects headed to Kickstarter...  You've already done the leg work...

[martinpulido]

Alright! I am glad to see there has been some great stimulating discussion on this topic here. Time to add a monster-sized response! Let me give some feedback/thoughts on what I have heard in a topical manner:

(1) Cost: It looks like I missed a few other charges here that have been kindly pointed out to me. These are Kickstarter's cut of profits, sales/reselling taxes, and then a related cost of promotion (say for websites or any ads). With taxes, there might also be income taxes to think about too later down the line. This leads to another question of cost for the emerging Kickstarter--must he set his own business up to kickstart a project and how does that factor into cost as well? Some of that will be state specific. Anyone have anything to explain on the tax/business license end?

Shipping, both domestic and international, looks like it should be its own topic! Since a deck of cards is around 3.3 ounces and the packaging is going to add some weight, the shipment weight is going to be around 3.8-4.8 ounces. Based on the United States Postal Services prices, shipping 1 deck of cards could cost:

(a) If the package can be considered a large envelope (3 oz /4 oz): $1.50/$1.70. On this, I am not sure of the exact thickness of a deck of cards, but it has to be right on the border for the envelope qualification, which sets it a 3/4". I think a deck is around 5/8"-3/4", so it might even depend on the human factor--who is during your order at the post office. Don has suggested that the deck's rigidity will make it qualify as a parcel anyway, so:

(b) If the package is considered a parcel (3 oz/4 oz): $1.95/$2.12

However, the domestic shipping does have other costs, such as the envelope/packaging itself, and any reasonable handling fees. For the former, I looked on Amazon and saw bubble padded envelopes available for around $15 for 100 (so add .15). For the latter, what should be considered a fair handling fee? 2 minutes of labor at $10/hour (around .33)? Or do we consider the kickstarter to be waving the mundane labor of packaging and shipping the products? Regardless, it seems clear that a $2 charge built into a deck doesn't even cover domestic shipping, let alone help with international costs. It seems more like $2.50 just to cover (on parcel price) domestic shipping + handling, and yet some people have said that $2  is too steep already. Something to think about.

I think that mostly covers the domestic shipping. But with international, things change. When it comes to smaller orders, I think it is worth it to stick with first class mail international, regardless of it not having delivery confirmation or tracking as Don pointed out. As a quick aside I have heard, but need to do more research, that there are ways to insure the product even with FCI. I doubt it would be worth the price hike, though. Anyway, speaking from experience, I have had numerous decks from my BANG! expansions shipped on first class international without any problems. Since the difference in the cost of shipping is substantial, if a deck is lost in transit, it is no big deal to ship another replacement deck given the money saved by using first class international. Let me show the price break down for First-Class:

(a) If the package can be considered a large envelope (3 oz/4 oz) and is shipping to Canada, Mexico, China/Japan [price group 3], or Bangladesh [price group 6]: $1.80/$1.95, $2.56/$3.09, $3.31/$4.09, $3.23/$3.97.

(b) If the package is considered a parcel (3 oz/4 oz) and is shipping to Canada, Mexico, China/Japan, or Bangladesh: $3.30/$3.45, $4.05/$4.59, $4.56/$5.34, $4.48/$5.22.

Now, look at the price hike for Priority Mail International:

If the package is a large envelope OR a small parcel (up to 4 pounds) and is shipping to Canada/Mexico or other international countries: $12.95/$16.95.

The increase is so substantial (300-400%) that I would only consider it only for the +$100 pledges, or maybe as an add for international pledges if they were willing to pay for it. With international, there is also an increase in handling time with customs paperwork. I have no idea how long one of those sheets takes to fill out, but it could add a .50 cent surcharge given the $10/hour figure used before.

Now, these prices have been thought out just for 1 deck of cards being shipped. Costs will change depending on the items pledged. On the whole, I imagine that shipping/handling costs will decrease in scale as the items pledged increase. For instance, 2 decks domestic shipping could cost:

If the package is considered a parcel (7/8): $2.63/$2.80. Note that that would only a 35%/32% increase in the cost of shipping; not double. Packaging and handling would increase in cost, but this would also not double. Packaging only gets problematic when an additional package is needed, because then the shipping cost does double. This could be the case with an additional package being needed for a rolled poster. So if one built in cost for price of domestic shipping per deck, he would make a higher profit margin on larger orders. This would be the same with international if shipping was built in for those orders, but there would be more awkward price hikes, such as when a parcel suddenly weighed more than 4 pounds.

Anyway, since the pricing can be pretty complicated when taken as a whole, what is the best way to explain your costs to a kickstarter in the most intelligible way? I don't know if saying "just be honest" cuts it. Clearly, one should be honest, but the explanation needs to be understandable to the kickstarter in a quick and digestible manner. How much should be disclosed?

I don't think I have seen any playing card project that really break down the costs, and you wonder how honest the designers are about the costs. And I don't mean this in terms of stiffing the pledgers, but in terms of stiffing themselves. For a successful project, I wonder how much profit a designer typically can make. Given the hundreds of hours you spend designing the project, advertising the project, getting and responding to feedback, and fulfilling the orders, do you even come close to minimum wage? In most cases I doubt it, so I wonder where the rumors of greedy designers come from.

(2) Price of a Deck: There has been a larger variety of responses in this area than I was expecting. This might be because I didn't specify as to what the cost of a deck should be with free domestic shipping being built into the price. International would be added separately, but with the recognized difference in the built in price. I wouldn't want a total built in price for both domestic and international.

Don/Alex has suggested that it might be worth turning a loss on 1-2 deck orders, so that you can benefit from their WOM (word of mouth) advertising. This is a possibility to consider, but I wonder if there is proof that it really pays off.

(3) Fulfillment Times: Most haven't discussed this, but it looks to be pretty fair what I suggested. Also of note is the importance of communication in any shipping time frames to your kickstarters.

(4) Marketing: One important item in discussion in this area has been the importance of securing business from retailers for larger orders. This has led me to some questions on how to do this with a product that does not yet exist. How do you merchandise to shops and businesses with a kickstarter project, especially when it is your first one?

It seems that a retailer would want a sample of the real deal, but you don't have that yet. You can mitigate this somewhat with a prototype deck. Yet any quality prototype deck is going to cost a lot, even if you use Brahma playing card's sample deck ($50). You might be able to show that deck around town, but what about to out of state vendors? You can't ship the deck to them--no guarantee they will send it back, and $50 for a lost deck is a steep cost. Perhaps you could mitigate this by only shipping out a few cards instead. Also, you could use a printer on demand to make decks for $6 a pop, but here you have to worry about the quality of the product in selling a far higher quality product.

To buttress the lack of a finished product, you can always have a well designed website with a good video and images showcasing the final design. Some PR and buzz from your product on popular blogs might also help. But is all of this enough? I don't know.

Out of state contacting seems difficult in general. Do you just call a shop up or send them an e-mail with an attachment and hope they respond? You can't really afford to drive or fly across the country in hopes of getting a vendor for your product.

(5) Rewards: There seems to be some consensus around the rewards, and I want to synthesize the remarks and ask some questions. In general, I think the real struggle of other rewards is finding a reward that is appealing to the kickstarter, price efficient, and easy to fulfill with the original project.

(a) Stickers and Postcards. There is a general consensus that such items are nice, but should be offered either as a free addition to other items as a perk OR as an add. I think I am okay with that idea; the former sort of encourages people to jump to another price point to get the free items that come with it. I think there is the question of whether these other items might hurt your ability to cover the costs for your own project, and if they are worth the time for their development and quality assurance. However, the extra something that they add might help in building a good relationship with your customers for future projects.

(b) Posters. People have been pretty split on this, some thinking it is worth the time and relatively easy to do, and others think it is not. It looks like it depends on the attractiveness of the design of the deck and the poster as an art piece in itself. No surprise here, really.

(c) T-shirts. There has been some debate on whether a t-shirt should be clearly tied to the card project itself (such as the t-shirts for Deck of the Living Dead or Tendril) or more loosely connected to it (such as Blue Blood's Memento Mori shirts and the ones I designed in the past). I think this may depend on how oriented your project is to playing card fanatics and also what kinds of t-shirts people like to wear. In general, I am not a fan of walking advertisement t-shirts, whether for a product or company, although I design them all the time for work (lol). But others may really like them. The real problem with t-shirts is their large cost of production in minimum quantities; are they really going to cover for themselves. In my project, it might be good to have them exclusively as adds if I was going to do them. Also,  I would have to narrow down the shirt options. I could always use my designs on posters instead.

(d) Card clips. The discussion has suggested that these have been recent popular items; long term success of these items may decline as they become more widely available beyond the kickstarter projects. Most seem to think that for my project one should not be done or I should just add plain ones.

(e) Miscellaneous. A few additional items have been suggested that could be of value: wristbands, dice, guitar picks, dealer's coins, card boxes/display cases, and additional gaff cards. I don't know how you could do additional gaff cards well. Even if you did extra gaffs through Brahma's sample decks, couldn't there be some serious color differences on the backs with the different printing and material? I imagine gaffs only work well when they look like they fit into the deck. But I might just be showing my ignorance again. Lol.

As for the book/card box idea, I like it for larger orders or as an add. I will have to try making one to see how it works and how much labor is involved. Getting my hands on old philosophy books and getting them shipped to and shipped from me might get a little pricey, but I will try to consider that in the price.

[hazofhorsham]

I think that was all pretty much summed up nicely. I think most people (Well myself and so I assume others) neglected to talk about fullfilment time because it is not something the designer can control. USPCC may be really quick, or awfully slow. They may mess up a run and have to start over - or may have an issue with the tuck case. Or a legal issue. Or an ink issue. Or anything. Most people are happy to wait as long as you are genuine. I.E I am still waiting for a clip from Encarded, but I know Paul is reputable. I don't think he has run off with the money. If you are active in the community and easily contactable (Twitter, facebook, UC, Aether, etc) and give people regular updates people should be fine. We understand USPCC can be tricky.

As for the gaff cards - I don't know how you could get samples, but it was suggested on a previous kickstarter topic (I believe by Don) that you could use http://809bicycle.com/index.php/custom-cards for the production. Gaffs only work when they suit the genre of deck... I.E if your deck is meant for magicians and card collectors (there is a lot of overlap). Then gaff cards would go well but they only suit magicians really.

I think they first thing to get sorted is for you to decide what sort of deck you are making. Is it going to be collectable? For magicians? For philosophers? Once you know who your target market is you can steer your marketing a deck towards them. I.E don't go to the trouble of making gaff cards (even those in the original deck) if your main buyer is a philosopher who wants a poker game.

[Paul Carpenter]

A few thoughts on a few things

- Tax license: This varies from state to state, but in effect what it means is that you are able to purchase your product from USPCC without paying them tax. You, in turn, sell your product and collect the appropriate tax from your buyers. In most cases, that means if you ship a product to a person in your own state.

- I shipped all of my product First class or Priority USPS. If an order fit in first class, that is how it went out. Priority mail was used when necessary (generally 6+ decks). When faced with putting together 1,000 packages in a short amount of you time you need consistency, even if it might be slightly more money. As an example, I knew that I needed to package up hundreds of single decks, so we made an assembly line, wrapped and put in envelopes, and then I printed out postage en masse. Specifically changing postage rates too many times would slow down and confuse the process greatly. As I mentioned before, if you plan it out properly you will have compensated for the costs already.

- Marketing to "shops" is not really relevant, IMO. You should have your artwork completed, and you get a prototype to use in videos and images online. What you focus on is the 4-6 major player online resellers and the individuals. Depending on your own capability to sell product, you may want to give more or less stock to resellers. Remember that they typically want to double their money, so if they want to sell your deck for $10, they want to get it from you for $5. On the other hand, if you can sell it yourself for $10, you've increased your profit margin by a huge amount. I had great success selling on my own even as a brand new entity. The more you can sell on your own, the more you will profit.

- In my experience it is is no way necessary to use 1-2 deck rewards as a loss leader. I priced mine fairly and approximately 700 of my 1000 backers chose those packages. I made some money on every one of those and had plenty of cards to sell to everyone else. No one complained about the cost.


Some of this sounds quite focused on money and maximizing profit, but if you aim to do this more than once, you really do need to be careful and maximize the potential of your work. We can all create things purely for the act of doing so, but if you want to go beyond that and bring something to other people, you can't dig yourself a hole or barely scrape by every time. It is simply too much time and effort to do right, and there is nothing wrong in coming out ahead, as long as you do so fairly.

[karak]

So I have been lurking around since we started our first RPG Kickstarter that had cards attached. The inflated cost coverage of the cards alone really hurt us.
We decided to break out the cards and do them first and look back at the RPG later.

But I have a question about rewards now.

We have a local company that is willing to create a limited amount of steel playing cards as rewards. Would something like that be considered a good reward? We have another company that is offering glass cards as an art style rewards. Our cards are a mix of fantasy and technological art to mix with our RPG and a steel card seemed a great fit as a reward. But I find myself wondering after reading allot of the threads here.

Thanks all.

[John B.]

Is the steel card like throwing cards? sharp edges? If so whats the price? I would be interested.

[karak]

2 kinds most likely.
A couple steel cut decks of actual cards that can be played, used, and are pretty thin. As well as some actual collectors style cards, larger than normal cards with true embossing and pressing to bring out the art aspects and could be mounted, hung, or just collected and set on a desk in a small tripod stand. We also have them embedded in a couple of our card boxes in our KickStarter.

We are arguing over proof pricing and such right now. Most likely not horrible once they are made. I will know in the next day or so but I was just wondering if that was one of those intangibles people talk about and love, or something no one is interested in.

[Don Boyer]

Cards made of steel built to work as a functional deck are not common and terribly expensive at retail.  It gives you a lot of leeway on pricing depending on cost of production.  But it would be good to find a fool-proof solution to the issues of sharp edges and scratch-prone surfaces first.  And they might be pretty popular.  Anything that's directly card-related but awesomely different gets a lot of buzz - Eco Clips and custom dice are some recent examples that KS deck projects have used.


If you can apply some cork under them, they could make awesome coasters/trivets!  Sell them off in sets of four matching the court values and aces.  Cork with adhesive backing is cheap.

[karak]

My wife and one of the designers mentioned coasters and I put it on the list but we never revisited using them as that. I will have to speak with them. Good idea.

[karak]

The metal company called today and we spoke to them. They have a glass blower and etcher on staff who wants to create maybe 20-50 super-limited glass cards for mounting or, as pointed out before, coasters.

That is exciting. Good rewards coming together. Still haven't heard back from the metal worker on the price of the metal cards. But they are cutting mockups in the next day or so.

Also I saw bracelets bandied around here. I never thought of that. Not sure it fits with our KickStarter, but another great idea.
Thanks for the ideas here in this thread people!

[karak]

 I have been blown away at the prices people are charging in the last couple decks coming out on KS. What is going on? Its crazy. Anyone with math skills can figure out that something is totally strange with some of those prices.

Does anyone agree? Is this just the new way to do a card deck on KS? A ton for the cards and a ton for the shipping?

Also I keep noticing deck owners having no clue about things that are in KS's. Haven't talked to USPC before you started your KS? Really? That's not a mistake thats just downright dishonest as you have no clue about your times and costs. These are people saying they are going to use USPC not companies that use stretch goals to pay for it.

Just shaking my head at how little research is being done by some creators. Even if they get funded I can't have any real confidence they have a clue what they need to do. ARGH. So frustrating when trying to decide if you want to pledge or now.

[Don Boyer]

I have been blown away at the prices people are charging in the last couple decks coming out on KS. What is going on? Its crazy. Anyone with math skills can figure out that something is totally strange with some of those prices.

Does anyone agree? Is this just the new way to do a card deck on KS? A ton for the cards and a ton for the shipping?

Also I keep noticing deck owners having no clue about things that are in KS's. Haven't talked to USPC before you started your KS? Really? That's not a mistake thats just downright dishonest as you have no clue about your times and costs. These are people saying they are going to use USPC not companies that use stretch goals to pay for it.

Just shaking my head at how little research is being done by some creators. Even if they get funded I can't have any real confidence they have a clue what they need to do. ARGH. So frustrating when trying to decide if you want to pledge or now.

If by "things that are in KS's" you're referring to what's involved in getting a deck made, then yes, there's a lot of people launching projects that know nothing about that end of how it works.  Most such projects fail.


And yes, some projects are priced a little out of whack with reality, including the shipping aspects.  But intelligent shoppers/investors know what's worth what.  If it's too expensive, you don't buy it, especially if it's not worth it.