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Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue

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Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« on: October 21, 2012, 08:48:48 PM »
 

moon.exe

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Alright, I'm probably not gonna make friends here, but I think it has to be said at one point or another.

Deck prices are going up. Way up.
I'm sure everyone knows about Aurum. Most of you probably know by now that the set price for a regular deck preorder is $11.95. Why? Because the box is special. Are we collecting cards or are we collecting nice packaging? What about those who want to use the decks? At $12 a deck, do you think the price for two bricks would be anywhere near reasonable? I understand that the box is very expensive to produce, but if it brings the general cost up so much, I'd rather stick to regular packaging and reasonable costs.

Now I know there already is a thread about Aurum, but this isn't a complaint to Paul, what's really bothering me today is the community's acceptance of the situation. On the facebook update which revealed the Aurum prices, all the comments I see are along the lines of "Looks amazing", "I can't wait", "When is the preorder", "When do you accept my money"...
If you keep being okay with it, prices will keep going up with every release. Do you want this to happen? I certainly don't.

The same thing has been happening with Lance's decks (and uncuts, most notably,) with the price going up with each new deck. I have a lot of respect for what he does, but I can't say as much for his pricing.

That's it for my rant, take it however you want.
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Re: Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2012, 08:57:38 PM »
 

Evan

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I agree and disagree with this...

I totally agree that decks are becoming overprice. Sometimes it's because of the box, and sometimes  it's just because the companies want more money.

I disagree, because I love having cool boxes so that they look nice in my collection.

Having an expensive version for collections (nice box, metallic inks, foil, etc.) and having a less expensive version for magicians and cardists (not a crazy box) would be a solution but it would be risky for the company.
 

Re: Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2012, 09:01:37 PM »
 

moon.exe

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Funny you would say this, as Aurum DOES have three different versions, and I'm only talking about the cheapest here.
Grin like a Cheshire cat, and remember: we're all mad here.
 

Re: Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2012, 10:09:25 PM »
 

Evan

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Funny you would say this, as Aurum DOES have three different versions, and I'm only talking about the cheapest here.
Right, but all three versions have crazy boxes. I mean a version with a standard box and one with a crazy box.
 

Re: Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2012, 12:10:49 AM »
 

Joker and the Thief

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I agree. They target collectors and magicians. As a cardist, I find it really frustrating because a particular deck is expensive. I'd love to purchase those decks to use, yet they are sometimes out of my price range. In the end, you just end up saving your money and buying a nice out of print deck, because its better than some of the stuff coming out now. I just find that some decks don't deserve attention nowadays and the ones that do, are too expensive. I hope you understand what I'm saying here...
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Re: Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2012, 12:19:58 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Alright, I'm probably not gonna make friends here, but I think it has to be said at one point or another.

Deck prices are going up. Way up.
I'm sure everyone knows about Aurum. Most of you probably know by now that the set price for a regular deck preorder is $11.95. Why? Because the box is special. Are we collecting cards or are we collecting nice packaging? What about those who want to use the decks? At $12 a deck, do you think the price for two bricks would be anywhere near reasonable? I understand that the box is very expensive to produce, but if it brings the general cost up so much, I'd rather stick to regular packaging and reasonable costs.

Now I know there already is a thread about Aurum, but this isn't a complaint to Paul, what's really bothering me today is the community's acceptance of the situation. On the facebook update which revealed the Aurum prices, all the comments I see are along the lines of "Looks amazing", "I can't wait", "When is the preorder", "When do you accept my money"...
If you keep being okay with it, prices will keep going up with every release. Do you want this to happen? I certainly don't.

The same thing has been happening with Lance's decks (and uncuts, most notably,) with the price going up with each new deck. I have a lot of respect for what he does, but I can't say as much for his pricing.

That's it for my rant, take it however you want.

Moon!  Long time no hear.   Excellent topic for discussion.  I can't imagine anyone disliking this at all.

Yes, the cost of a deck has gone a bit higher in recent months, especially from smaller companies.  But when you think about it, a LOT of prices have gone up.  Our whole economy (with the exception of the stock market, surprise, surprise) has been dragging its ass for the past four years.  I could make political comments, but that's besides the point - which is that when the paper company and the ink company and all the other suppliers charge more, USPC has to charge more.  When the shipping company charges more, USPC has to charge more.  When USPC charges more, so does the seller in order to recoup losses.  There's also the cost of postage for shipping, packaging materials, labor (it's really a good deal of labor to pack, ship and track 1,000+ boxes)...

As far as fancy boxes and such, yes, there are people out there who buy these things just for the boxes.  Literally.  They practically could care less what's inside of them.  Paul could sell them a pack-sized brick of wood in the pretty box and odds are they wouldn't even notice, because they don't open the box!  (OK, on the box with the windows they would, but that's a rarity!)  Personally, I compare this to someone buying a piece of fine art and this happens: the studio packs it into a nice pretty (or sometimes not even pretty) crate and ships it to the buyer, who proceeds to place the art STILL IN THE CRATE somewhere in his lovely home to admire, never having even the least desire to open the crate!

Having said all that, such collectors do make up a significant portion of the market, a portion not easily ignored.  Furthermore, when you're making a product that's in competition with a large-ish market of other, similar products (after all, they're ALL playing cards), you have to do something to make your product stand out.  While everyone online gets to look at the pretty art, there's many magic shops that carry these products and put them on the store shelves.  You make your product look unique and special to individual shoppers' tastes, you'll sell more - and the retailers, knowing this, will want to buy more for their customers.

Am I saying that there isn't a bit of desire for a greater profit margin on the part of the designer?  I'd be lying if I said no - and they deserve to be paid for their creative talents.  But there's a very simple solution to the rising cost of playing cards...

...if you think the deck isn't worth the price (or you simply can't afford it), don't buy it.  Plain and simple.

At some point, the market will reach a saturation point, much like it did in the '90s for comic books, sports cards and collectible deck-building card games.  Will it happen soon?  I honestly couldn't tell you.  But if a company raises the price of any product high enough, they'll lose enough buyers to make the project a loss.  When this happens, you'll start seeing fewer, better, more reasonably-priced products take their place.  It's entirely possible that rather than bursting, the bubble might just be bled out slowly, assuming that the designers and card companies are wise enough to see the signs of a changing market early and take steps to not kill the goose that lays those golden eggs I keep hearing so much about.

I agree and disagree with this...

I totally agree that decks are becoming overprice. Sometimes it's because of the box, and sometimes  it's just because the companies want more money.

I disagree, because I love having cool boxes so that they look nice in my collection.

Having an expensive version for collections (nice box, metallic inks, foil, etc.) and having a less expensive version for magicians and cardists (not a crazy box) would be a solution but it would be risky for the company.

In essence, this is exactly what the Aurum deck is.  There's a standard version, despite being thought of by some as pricy, there's an upgraded version which costs more and is in smaller supply, and finally there's a "super-deluxe" version, of which extremely few will be made and only a small number of people will own.  To the average Joe Cardworker, the standard version will do just fine - it has all the tools he needs to do his job (or hobby).  Collectors who like pretty boxes and have deeper pockets will go for the other two like flies to honey-dipped sugar bombs.

Having said all of this, it's not often you see that many versions of the same product.  Often people get one shot to make it and just put together a single design.  Bigger companies like D&D or CARC or David Blaine are more likely because they're regular USPC customers who buy in sizable volume.  T11 mostly does different decks, though they were doing the version game for a while, changing boxes and saying "version 2".  I've yet to see Ellusionist pull that stunt - each deck's been at least somewhat different.

The risk really only arises when you're making "fancy" and "plain" at the same time and in sizable quantities.   You have no idea which way the market will skew and you could end up with a lot of unsold boxes of one type or the other.  Which is why most deluxe releases I've ever seen are done only in small amounts.

I agree. They target collectors and magicians. As a cardist, I find it really frustrating because a particular deck is expensive. I'd love to purchase those decks to use, yet they are sometimes out of my price range. In the end, you just end up saving your money and buying a nice out of print deck, because its better than some of the stuff coming out now. I just find that some decks don't deserve attention nowadays and the ones that do, are too expensive. I hope you understand what I'm saying here...

I understand just fine, J&T.  As a cardist, you have more specialized needs - there's likely many decks on the market now that don't even suit those needs.  But in the end, cardists are best off using common brands for everyday practicing and premium decks mostly for performing.  If you think good stock and Magic Finish are too expensive to get, pick up some red and blue Masters from Ellusionist - they're among the cheapest top-quality decks on the market and always in print.

Now if only E would upgrade the box...  (insert ironic grin here)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 12:25:40 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2012, 12:25:21 AM »
 

moon.exe

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Right, but all three versions have crazy boxes. I mean a version with a standard box and one with a crazy box.
That's exactly my point... I'm all for the premium edition having a cool collector box, but the regular one shouldn't if it's impossible to have within reasonable costs.

I just find that some decks don't deserve attention nowadays and the ones that do, are too expensive. I hope you understand what I'm saying here...

Yep, that is exactly how I feel. It's like the decks that are actually good are starting to use their quality as an excuse for a price premium, instead of the bad ones going down in price because they aren't worth it. Bad is the new standard.

...if you think the deck isn't worth the price (or you simply can't afford it), don't buy it.  Plain and simple.
Oh, don't worry about that. Instead of a brick or two had it been affordable enough, I don't plan on buying any more than three decks of Aurum. Likewise, I probably would've been much more likely to buy Actuators for a lower cost. In fact, it's been months since I've bought any decks at all; exception yesterday when I bought half a brick of Daniel Madison's Players, only because they're limited and waiting later isn't an option. Which is funny, considering those were actually pretty affordable. ::)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 12:35:24 AM by moon.exe »
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Re: Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2012, 12:32:13 AM »
 

jhayel84

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An excerpt from UC.com forum regarding the reason why Aurum is pricy (http://UC.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=57):

"Aurum costs, frankly, a ridiculous amount to make. Tendril was $9.95 which was a reasonable cost based on what it cost to print. Aurum is costing over 30% more than Tendril to actually print. As a small, boutique maker I'm fine with not trying to compete with Theory11 or Blue Crown. They make decks in the tens of thousands, with very little custom work and can pump put decks every month. I spent 6 months carefully handcrafting Aurum and adding evry luxury feature available, plus new ones no one else has tried.

All that is to say that Aurum won't be like the decks you buy elsewhere. It also will never be made again. Don't forget that I also won't charge the ridiculous costs that most of the big guys do to ship the things to you."
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 12:33:40 AM by jhayel84 »
 

Re: Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2012, 12:37:58 AM »
 

moon.exe

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Jhayel, I'm very aware (and even said so in my first post) of the reasons for Aurum's price. What I'm saying is it shouldn't have so much extra luxury on the standard edition that it becomes overpriced for the regular buyer.

I know collectors are a big part of the market, but playing cards stay playing cards, not trading cards.
Grin like a Cheshire cat, and remember: we're all mad here.
 

Re: Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2012, 12:44:24 AM »
 

jhayel84

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I agree on what you said. The standard deck is just pricy. I think that the pricing was for the collectors! lol

On my opinion the price for a standard Aurum deck should be around from $10-$10.95  ;)
 

Re: Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2012, 12:47:39 AM »
 

John B.

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this is one of the reasons I dont buy as many cards. The price is not right. I would rather buy a brick of quicksilver decks with an early bird special with the intent of trading. Speaking of aurum, I will be getting the cheaper 2 out of the 3. the 3rd one is a bit to much for my pockets.
Do you guys even read this? Like I could have the meaning of life here and I doubt you would know it.
 

Re: Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2012, 01:35:57 AM »
 

Joker and the Thief

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I agree. They target collectors and magicians. As a cardist, I find it really frustrating because a particular deck is expensive. I'd love to purchase those decks to use, yet they are sometimes out of my price range. In the end, you just end up saving your money and buying a nice out of print deck, because its better than some of the stuff coming out now. I just find that some decks don't deserve attention nowadays and the ones that do, are too expensive. I hope you understand what I'm saying here...

I understand just fine, J&T.  As a cardist, you have more specialized needs - there's likely many decks on the market now that don't even suit those needs.  But in the end, cardists are best off using common brands for everyday practicing and premium decks mostly for performing.  If you think good stock and Magic Finish are too expensive to get, pick up some red and blue Masters from Ellusionist - they're among the cheapest top-quality decks on the market and always in print.

Now if only E would upgrade the box...  (insert ironic grin here)

it comes all comes down to personal preference. Personally, I don't really like E's decks, whatsoever. (Ghost deck is an exception). I love using rare and out of print cards, along with premium decks, I prefer them for both practice and performance. It's just an annoyance because I'd love to get new nice playing cards. For example; the red and blue Ace Fultons. I love the design and have heard great things about the ivory finish. But I just can't afford to get the half a brick that I want. I think most companies are charging $7.77+ because they can.... it adds up, and shipping, if anyone has noticed can add a lot as well. Overall you've paid a motza. On top of that sometimes you get decks that aren't worth half a cracker.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 01:40:08 AM by Joker and the Thief »
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Re: Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2012, 01:37:50 AM »
 

Joker and the Thief

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Accidental double post, sorry guys.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 01:41:13 AM by Joker and the Thief »
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Re: Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2012, 02:02:04 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Right, but all three versions have crazy boxes. I mean a version with a standard box and one with a crazy box.
That's exactly my point... I'm all for the premium edition having a cool collector box, but the regular one shouldn't if it's impossible to have within reasonable costs.

I just find that some decks don't deserve attention nowadays and the ones that do, are too expensive. I hope you understand what I'm saying here...

Yep, that is exactly how I feel. It's like the decks that are actually good are starting to use their quality as an excuse for a price premium, instead of the bad ones going down in price because they aren't worth it. Bad is the new standard.

...if you think the deck isn't worth the price (or you simply can't afford it), don't buy it.  Plain and simple.
Oh, don't worry about that. Instead of a brick or two had it been affordable enough, I don't plan on buying any more than three decks of Aurum. Likewise, I probably would've been much more likely to buy Actuators for a lower cost. In fact, it's been months since I've bought any decks at all; exception yesterday when I bought half a brick of Daniel Madison's Players, only because they're limited and waiting later isn't an option. Which is funny, considering those were actually pretty affordable. ::)

I would hardly call "bad" the new standard.  And this deck in particular is a premium item to start with, so when you boil it down to brass tacks, all the versions are premium to varying degrees.  Compare the artwork on this deck to the artwork on something like a typical T11 deck with a one-color back and standard, recolored faces.

It's nice to want to handle cards, certainly.  But as far as plain, simple usability, there's practically nothing about this deck that makes it any more or less functional than a pack of Bees or Bikes or Tally Hos.  It's like comparing a cheap poster to a fine art print on archival paper.

BTW: I got the impression from the wording in the product description and T11's most recent business practices that the Daniel Madison Players will indeed return to market after this sell-out, but in a differently-colored version which is probably less limited.  My guess would be reverse-colored backs.

An excerpt from UC.com forum regarding the reason why Aurum is pricy (http://UC.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=57):

"Aurum costs, frankly, a ridiculous amount to make. Tendril was $9.95 which was a reasonable cost based on what it cost to print. Aurum is costing over 30% more than Tendril to actually print. As a small, boutique maker I'm fine with not trying to compete with Theory11 or Blue Crown. They make decks in the tens of thousands, with very little custom work and can pump put decks every month. I spent 6 months carefully handcrafting Aurum and adding evry luxury feature available, plus new ones no one else has tried.

All that is to say that Aurum won't be like the decks you buy elsewhere. It also will never be made again. Don't forget that I also won't charge the ridiculous costs that most of the big guys do to ship the things to you."

First of all, your link won't work.  "Uc.com" takes you to the UC Group, a securities and investment company...

And yes, this deck is a really premium model.  To argue that it should be in a plainer box and at a lower price is like asking the Lamborghini dealer if he has an economy model with a four-cylinder engine, plain rims, an AM radio and polyester upholstery.

Jhayel, I'm very aware (and even said so in my first post) of the reasons for Aurum's price. What I'm saying is it shouldn't have so much extra luxury on the standard edition that it becomes overpriced for the regular buyer.

I know collectors are a big part of the market, but playing cards stay playing cards, not trading cards.

I for one agree that playing cards should remain playing cards, but you need to recognize that playing card collecting is a LUXURY hobby in the first place!  Little boutique design shops, short print runs, higher prices than a pack at the drug store, exclusivity, difficulty to find (without the help of the Internet) - what about that screams "Joe Sixpack!" to you?

Playing cards ARE still playing cards, but these are more than ordinary playing cards, with a higher degree of care and artistry in the design and the manufacturing.  Nearly every deck all the custom shops make would fit this description to varying degrees.

I agree on what you said. The standard deck is just pricy. I think that the pricing was for the collectors! lol

On my opinion the price for a standard Aurum deck should be around from $10-$10.95  ;)

Then naturally this isn't a deck for you, right?  It costs more than you think it should.

There's nothing about custom decks that is "standard".

this is one of the reasons I dont buy as many cards. The price is not right. I would rather buy a brick of quicksilver decks with an early bird special with the intent of trading. Speaking of aurum, I will be getting the cheaper 2 out of the 3. the 3rd one is a bit to much for my pockets.

"A man's got to know his limitations..." - Clint Eastwood as "Dirty" Harry Callahan.

When enough people swing over to this point of view, then the prices will go down - but also at the expense of some of the quality and artistry.  Look at the "Play Right" decks, Walgreens' replacement for Studs.  Cheaper manufacture, lower quality and variety - though for them I'm betting it was a simple cost-cutting measure.  The problem is that these decks sell for more than Bicycles at the Walgreens stores in my area!  When I visited Florida in August, they were 99 cents a pack while up in New York I paid nearly $4.00.


it comes all comes down to personal preference. Personally, I don't really like E's decks, whatsoever. (Ghost deck is an exception). I love using rare and out of print cards, along with premium decks, I prefer them for both practice and performance. It's just an annoyance because I'd love to get new nice playing cards. For example; the red and blue Ace Fultons. I love the design and have heard great things about the ivory finish. But I just can't afford to get the half a brick that I want. I think most companies are charging $7.77+ because they can.... it adds up, and shipping, if anyone has noticed can add a lot as well. Overall you've paid a motza. On top of that sometimes you get decks that aren't worth half a cracker.

See Dirty Harry quote, above...

You'd love to get nice, new, custom-designed playing cards.  I'd love a new Honda Prius.  Or a Chevy Volt, but then I'd need a house with a garage to plug the car in - so I'd love a house, too.  Without the cash, it's not going to happen for either of us, and that's it.

Guys, it's as simple as voting with your money.  I stopped buying Dan and Dave decks altogether.  Doesn't mean I think they're terrible people, doesn't mean I don't think their library of magic literature has some of the finest books on the market all in one place.  Doesn't mean I think they're terrible cardists.  But it does mean I thought I wasn't getting what I felt was enough value for my money.  The situation could change, and I'd find their decks worth buying again - though based on present trends, that's not happening any time soon.

I'm going to try getting in to their lecture at Tannen's on Thursday.

But back to the point - if you think any product isn't worth what someone wants to charge for it, regardless of how beautiful, cool, functional, practical, impractical, etc. you think it is, then you don't buy it!  There is absolutely no shortage of companies out there in Custom Playing Cardland putting out great decks at varying price points, most of which would make anyone happy.  If you're that particular that this is the deck for you and you must have it, then you buy it - if you want it that much, you obviously think it's worth it.  Of course, if you want it and can't afford it, welcome to the real world, I'm your guide for this trip through Hard Luck City in the fine state of Tough Noogies and capital of You Can't Get Everything You Wantstan.
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Re: Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2012, 02:26:06 AM »
 

Joker and the Thief

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it comes all comes down to personal preference. Personally, I don't really like E's decks, whatsoever. (Ghost deck is an exception). I love using rare and out of print cards, along with premium decks, I prefer them for both practice and performance. It's just an annoyance because I'd love to get new nice playing cards. For example; the red and blue Ace Fultons. I love the design and have heard great things about the ivory finish. But I just can't afford to get the half a brick that I want. I think most companies are charging $7.77+ because they can.... it adds up, and shipping, if anyone has noticed can add a lot as well. Overall you've paid a motza. On top of that sometimes you get decks that aren't worth half a cracker.

See Dirty Harry quote, above...

You'd love to get nice, new, custom-designed playing cards.  I'd love a new Honda Prius.  Or a Chevy Volt, but then I'd need a house with a garage to plug the car in - so I'd love a house, too.  Without the cash, it's not going to happen for either of us, and that's it.

Guys, it's as simple as voting with your money.  I stopped buying Dan and Dave decks altogether.  Doesn't mean I think they're terrible people, doesn't mean I don't think their library of magic literature has some of the finest books on the market all in one place.  Doesn't mean I think they're terrible cardists.  But it does mean I thought I wasn't getting what I felt was enough value for my money.  The situation could change, and I'd find their decks worth buying again - though based on present trends, that's not happening any time soon.

I'm going to try getting in to their lecture at Tannen's on Thursday.

But back to the point - if you think any product isn't worth what someone wants to charge for it, regardless of how beautiful, cool, functional, practical, impractical, etc. you think it is, then you don't buy it!  There is absolutely no shortage of companies out there in Custom Playing Cardland putting out great decks at varying price points, most of which would make anyone happy.  If you're that particular that this is the deck for you and you must have it, then you buy it - if you want it that much, you obviously think it's worth it.  Of course, if you want it and can't afford it, welcome to the real world, I'm your guide for this trip through Hard Luck City in the fine state of Tough Noogies and capital of You Can't Get Everything You Wantstan.


Don't get me wrong, Don and I'm not really the one to complain. I absolutely see where you are coming from. But you don't have say "well that price is horrible so the product mustn't be worth it" think about it. For arguments sake; If you want an Aston Martin and you want the DBS but its $200,000 dollars more than another vehicle, it doesn't mean that's it not better kit. You get what you pay for, if you know what I mean. And yes, if you simply don't have the money, you are unable to purchase. Now compare the hypothetical situation again; If that DBS was just a newer version (basically the same) of a DB9 and it was $200,000 dollars more. You'd think that Aston was charging more, just because they can. The situation is the same with Dan and Dave for example. The fultons may be great cards but I feel that they have a $7.77 price tag just because (same with the Chinatowns; $8.88). All in all that leads us back to the root discussion. Rising Card prices.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 02:29:01 AM by Joker and the Thief »
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Re: Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2012, 03:53:00 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Don't get me wrong, Don and I'm not really the one to complain. I absolutely see where you are coming from. But you don't have say "well that price is horrible so the product mustn't be worth it" think about it. For arguments sake; If you want an Aston Martin and you want the DBS but its $200,000 dollars more than another vehicle, it doesn't mean that's it not better kit. You get what you pay for, if you know what I mean. And yes, if you simply don't have the money, you are unable to purchase. Now compare the hypothetical situation again; If that DBS was just a newer version (basically the same) of a DB9 and it was $200,000 dollars more. You'd think that Aston was charging more, just because they can. The situation is the same with Dan and Dave for example. The fultons may be great cards but I feel that they have a $7.77 price tag just because (same with the Chinatowns; $8.88). All in all that leads us back to the root discussion. Rising Card prices.

Picture this scenario, building on your scenario:

Let's say that Aston is selling the DBS and the DB9, with the DBS costing $200K more.  It's a worthwhile car, worth every penny put into it.  But let's say that the economy is so godsawful, even the wealthy aren't spending on their luxury goods like they used to - bankers are losing their jobs, people are rioting and destroying flagrantly luxurious items such as that car, etc.  Sales on the car are diving to the point that the company no longer feels its worth investing in such a costly model and instead opt for a somewhat less-expensive DB-series model that isn't that much more expensive than the DB9.

That's what can happen in the playing card market.  It already has at the mass market level when you look at the Walgreens example.  If Studs were selling solidly, they'd be profitable enough that they'd keep ordering them from USPC (they'd be idiots if they didn't).  In comes Play Right brand, a cheaper model that can in many cases be sold for less, out goes Studs.  They're betting on the Play Rights being more profitable than the Studs (for which I pity them; Studs were excellent cards).

It can only be a matter of time before this starts happening at the big custom card companies and eventually the smaller design shops.  The only way it wouldn't happen is if suddenly everyone became insanely better off economically, or if the companies in question saw the handwriting on the wall and started making good, solid products that cost less time and money to produce.  It's the market itself that drives them to excel, which in turn drives them to make better products and seek more profit.  If the market were suddenly crippled, it would suck the wind out of their sails (and sales) very quickly and they'd be forced to adapt to the new market conditions or lie down with the other dinosaurs.

Right now, though, it remains a very popular hobby, since while it's a luxury hobby, it's a drop in the bucket compared to hobbies like collecting yachts or sports cars.  The common man can afford to buy a few decks without going broke - it's when a few becomes several hundred a year that you have problems.  All buyers of custom decks fall somewhere in the range of "I'm too poor to even pay attention" to "$400 for a J-Nugg?  It's a steal, I'll take twelve!"  If your resources are somewhere in the middle-to-low end of that range, then you have to be SELECTIVE and CHOOSY about what you purchase, because you know right away that you can't buy it all.

I know you're not one to complain and that you do see my point of view, but what irks me are the people who complain when they can't have every deck that comes out and all within their limited means.  This is no different than if I want to take a drive upstate but can't afford the extra gas, or I want to have a night out at the movies but can't afford tickets and concessions (which in my area are astronomically high, highest in the country, largely due to a wicked-bad ratio of screens to potential audience members, a result of the high cost of real estate).  It's like a guy having a seat at the bar, wanting to drink that really old, rare Scotch who can only afford a cheap draft beer.

OK, now I'm rambling...  That's when I know it's time to stop!
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Re: Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2012, 04:19:34 AM »
 

LauR

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The whole issue is a simple economic supply and demand, some people may complain the prices are too high yet other individuals still find that reasonable and purchase the deck. therefore, as long as the demand meets the supply there is no reason for them to drop the price for those individuals who feel its too pricey.

 

Re: Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2012, 04:32:07 AM »
 

Joker and the Thief

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Don't get me wrong, Don and I'm not really the one to complain. I absolutely see where you are coming from. But you don't have say "well that price is horrible so the product mustn't be worth it" think about it. For arguments sake; If you want an Aston Martin and you want the DBS but its $200,000 dollars more than another vehicle, it doesn't mean that's it not better kit. You get what you pay for, if you know what I mean. And yes, if you simply don't have the money, you are unable to purchase. Now compare the hypothetical situation again; If that DBS was just a newer version (basically the same) of a DB9 and it was $200,000 dollars more. You'd think that Aston was charging more, just because they can. The situation is the same with Dan and Dave for example. The fultons may be great cards but I feel that they have a $7.77 price tag just because (same with the Chinatowns; $8.88). All in all that leads us back to the root discussion. Rising Card prices.

I know you're not one to complain and that you do see my point of view, but what irks me are the people who complain when they can't have every deck that comes out and all within their limited means.  This is no different than if I want to take a drive upstate but can't afford the extra gas, or I want to have a night out at the movies but can't afford tickets and concessions (which in my area are astronomically high, highest in the country, largely due to a wicked-bad ratio of screens to potential audience members, a result of the high cost of real estate).  It's like a guy having a seat at the bar, wanting to drink that really old, rare Scotch who can only afford a cheap draft beer.

OK, now I'm rambling...  That's when I know it's time to stop!

I completely agree with that statement, It gets under my skin also. I see people buying deck in the brick load, and yet they complain. The problem for me is, when I go to buy a deck I like (which is not too often), the price can be pretty hefty. I guess I'm also rambling now, so I'll leave this post at that. :))
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 04:33:29 AM by Joker and the Thief »
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Re: Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2012, 06:25:07 AM »
 

jhayel84

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Whilst I said that the deck is pricy I will still buy a few coz I got some moolah to burn.  ;)

« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 06:28:02 AM by jhayel84 »
 

Re: Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2012, 06:37:50 AM »
 

anep21

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actually the higher price helps collector who is not active in forum/facebook. if they sell at $5 per deck, a lot of you guys will buy 3-4 bricks to sell or trade. so the deck will sold out in less than 6 hours. now, many of us will think twice to get more than 2 bricks, so it'll give chance for more people to get the deck
 

Re: Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2012, 07:40:53 AM »
 

Joker and the Thief

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actually the higher price helps collector who is not active in forum/facebook. if they sell at $5 per deck, a lot of you guys will buy 3-4 bricks to sell or trade. so the deck will sold out in less than 6 hours. now, many of us will think twice to get more than 2 bricks, so it'll give chance for more people to get the deck

It doesn't help collectors whatsoever. Your statement is fundamentally flawed. Now I might not be a collector but I think I'm right in saying that nobody wants to pay more. What you are saying is, is that if we pay extra then we can obtain the deck easier. If a deck is truly rare then it will gain value because of its popularity and scarceness not because of its original price tag. Like LauR said, simple economics.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 07:43:59 AM by Joker and the Thief »
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Re: Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2012, 09:14:50 AM »
 

anep21

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actually the higher price helps collector who is not active in forum/facebook. if they sell at $5 per deck, a lot of you guys will buy 3-4 bricks to sell or trade. so the deck will sold out in less than 6 hours. now, many of us will think twice to get more than 2 bricks, so it'll give chance for more people to get the deck

It doesn't help collectors whatsoever. Your statement is fundamentally flawed. Now I might not be a collector but I think I'm right in saying that nobody wants to pay more. What you are saying is, is that if we pay extra then we can obtain the deck easier. If a deck is truly rare then it will gain value because of its popularity and scarceness not because of its original price tag. Like LauR said, simple economics.

of course nobody wants to pay more. that's why i said it helps collector who isn't active in forums, not you guys. if the price is $6 per deck, it will sold out in less than 6 hours. so, many other collectors have to buy from eBay at the price of more than $15.
 

Re: Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2012, 09:53:48 AM »
 

Paul Carpenter

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Well, I'm thrilled that a little thing like the price of a deck is causing so much quality discussion on an interesting topic!

As some perspective from me, I personally feel that there are two "classes" of cards out there. There are cards that are made in large numbers, by large companies, have little visual customization, handle well and can be bought at any time. On the other side, are cards made by "boutique" companies. These decks are usually printed once in a small number, took months and months of work by an individual to do, try to do something new and different, and have a bit more thought and art put into them.

The former are meant for people to buy a lot of, use the heck out of and not think twice about. The latter, are meant to be bought in smaller numbers, used but not abused, and maybe kept sealed for posterity.

Aurum, in this case, is more expensive than a deck from the Blue Crown. It also cost a lot more to make, and took 6 moths of my life. :) If you look at most of the prices of decks, generally their retail cost is 3-4x what it cost to make. This is pretty consistent across all companies, and Aurum is completely average in that regard.

I designed this deck to be excessive. That is the point of it! With the small numbers of the special editions, they cost a lot to make. I couldn't get USPC to make me more of the laser cuts, and they cost a ton. Yes, they are expensive. There also will only be 75 of them, ever. Compared to a All-in-wonder bottle (which cost more in many cases) it's just as rare, if not more so. Compared to any version of any deck I am aware of, it's an order of magnitude more rare.

The market, individual tastes and pocketbooks all vary and these days there is something for everyone. Remember too that the market is much larger than the forums. Tendril was purchased by about 1500 people, of which perhaps 50 (at most) are on these forums talking about it. The special editions of things like this are meant for the collection, and won't be for everyone. Which is fine, I think.
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Re: Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2012, 10:00:56 AM »
 

Gunshy1

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I play with the cards; not the box. the box is to hold and protect the CARDS. however, with limited custom decks, such as aurum, i understand having a custom box as well.

what really grinds my gears is the rebel deck. its a custom backed deck with a cool box and is priced at $7 why!?
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Re: Cards VS Boxes, and a price issue
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2012, 10:56:26 AM »
 

Paul Carpenter

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I play with the cards; not the box. the box is to hold and protect the CARDS. however, with limited custom decks, such as aurum, i understand having a custom box as well.

what really grinds my gears is the rebel deck. its a custom backed deck with a cool box and is priced at $7 why!?

They can charge $7 because they print tens of thousands of decks and can spread their costs over a very large number of purchases. They also have 100,000 fans on Facebook. They will make a huge amount of money at their lower margin because they will sell tons of them. If even 2% of their fans buy just a few decks, they would eclipse an entire 5,000 deck run. Trust me, the big companies are making a LOT of money. They are not releasing decks out of the goodness of their hearts.  ;)

Designers like me work alone, slave for months on our projects, and only have the capital to do a small run. I have to recoup costs and time in a much smaller amount of product. 

Don't forget as well what many companies charge for shipping. They might charge $7-8 for a deck, but add an $2-3 extra into the shipping. I could make Aurum $9 and simply charge $6-7 shipping like D&D. Would that be "better" or perceived as more fair? I personally feel taken advantage of when that happens. I prefer to know what the product actually cost, and pay a reasonable shipping charge.
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