Steamboats & New Fan Backs: D&D collaborations with USPC [new decks]

[Angel_magic]

Yeah I agree, there's no use in debating over speculation. Guess we'll just have to wait until the decks are in our hands, and continue this then. I'm not done with you yet, Don

[xela]

Why I don't believe D&D are actually testing a new ANYTHING:

1. USPCC has yet to work with a company to get new paper. The paper they use is the paper that the mills provide. You can't just walk into USPCC and "develop" a new stock. They have what they have, and anything available to D&D is available to every person working with them. If D&D found a ground breaking new stock, you would see more people using it already. Just look at the Magic finish, which was printed on USPCC decks before a single Ellusionist deck with it hit shelves, and you already had custom decks utilizing that finish when it was just announced.

2. If USPCC refused to work with David Blaine on developing new tech and materials for cards (which is why the Legends deck is outsourcing to other companies), why would they give a minute of their time to D&D, who don't have anywhere near the resources that DB has? USPCC chucked E and T11 out the window so they could opt out of working with any company, yet they team up with D&D?

3. 100% of the time in the past, when a company or person stated they're "teaming up with USPCC" it has been on the design-end. The design folks have nothing to do with the production department, or R&D. At least that's what my conversations with their design department has led me to believe, since some of them are more clueless about stocks/finishes than us folks on the forums.

[Frost]

you guys might want to check this out they posted this on there instagram page a hour ago, and on there Facebook page ? I think its called the Ultimate Deck by Stranger & Stranger .

[shz]

you guys might want to check this out they posted this on there instagram page a hour ago, and on there Facebook page ? I think its called the Ultimate Deck by Stranger & Stranger .

There was a post on a thread quite a while ago about this deck.

[agera94]

Found this quote over on UC; not too sure what to think of it:

"Being one of our favorite decks we convinced the USPCC to allow us to reprint these to their original specification with a smooth finish on ultra thin paper. We think the outcome is better than the original."

[sr15]

As bad as it may sound, I honestly hope this venture fails miserably and no one buys it. Maybe then Dan and Dave will realize that they actually have to start putting out quality merchandise again to get people's business.

agreed. They have put out quality decks and designs in the past so there's nothing to suggest that they can't do it in the future, other than the notion that it seems they just don't really care anymore. I skipped on v7s, I skipped on the mystery decks, and I will almost certainly skip on this with the Legends deck coming out this month. I have complained in the past about T11 and E having somewhat uninspired deck releases, but D&D take the cake over the past few months, no question.

Why I don't believe D&D are actually testing a new ANYTHING:

1. USPCC has yet to work with a company to get new paper. The paper they use is the paper that the mills provide. You can't just walk into USPCC and "develop" a new stock. They have what they have, and anything available to D&D is available to every person working with them. If D&D found a ground breaking new stock, you would see more people using it already. Just look at the Magic finish, which was printed on USPCC decks before a single Ellusionist deck with it hit shelves, and you already had custom decks utilizing that finish when it was just announced.

2. If USPCC refused to work with David Blaine on developing new tech and materials for cards (which is why the Legends deck is outsourcing to other companies), why would they give a minute of their time to D&D, who don't have anywhere near the resources that DB has? USPCC chucked E and T11 out the window so they could opt out of working with any company, yet they team up with D&D?

3. 100% of the time in the past, when a company or person stated they're "teaming up with USPCC" it has been on the design-end. The design folks have nothing to do with the production department, or R&D. At least that's what my conversations with their design department has led me to believe, since some of them are more clueless about stocks/finishes than us folks on the forums.

agreed on all points

Found this quote over on UC; not too sure what to think of it:

"Being one of our favorite decks we convinced the USPCC to allow us to reprint these to their original specification with a smooth finish on ultra thin paper. We think the outcome is better than the original."

yeahhhh... not buying that one bit. Read what alex said. There is no special stock or finish available to D&D that isn't available to everyone else. It will be a standard deck of playing cards if it goes through USPCC. Not to say that USPCC doesn't put out high quality decks, but this absolutely won't be anything groundbreaking like D&D would like to suggest.

[Paul Carpenter]

Found this quote over on UC; not too sure what to think of it:

"Being one of our favorite decks we convinced the USPCC to allow us to reprint these to their original specification with a smooth finish on ultra thin paper. We think the outcome is better than the original."

Well *that* is far more interesting. Barely cared about these before reading that part.

[Don Boyer]

Why I don't believe D&D are actually testing a new ANYTHING:

1. USPCC has yet to work with a company to get new paper. The paper they use is the paper that the mills provide. You can't just walk into USPCC and "develop" a new stock. They have what they have, and anything available to D&D is available to every person working with them. If D&D found a ground breaking new stock, you would see more people using it already. Just look at the Magic finish, which was printed on USPCC decks before a single Ellusionist deck with it hit shelves, and you already had custom decks utilizing that finish when it was just announced.

2. If USPCC refused to work with David Blaine on developing new tech and materials for cards (which is why the Legends deck is outsourcing to other companies), why would they give a minute of their time to D&D, who don't have anywhere near the resources that DB has? USPCC chucked E and T11 out the window so they could opt out of working with any company, yet they team up with D&D?

3. 100% of the time in the past, when a company or person stated they're "teaming up with USPCC" it has been on the design-end. The design folks have nothing to do with the production department, or R&D. At least that's what my conversations with their design department has led me to believe, since some of them are more clueless about stocks/finishes than us folks on the forums.

I don't think you understood what I meant.  The actual paper is the same.  But it's "sandwiched" into stock at USPC, and if needed, embossed.  The process for creating that sandwich is completely under USPC's control.  Different pressures and different amounts of glue can alter the cardstock created.  I've heard the same thing from two different sources, both involved in making playing cards.

But again, we have no way of knowing what the deal with that deck is until it's in people's hands.

[Michael]

For those that haven't already seen, two releases went live on the D&D site:

Steamboat reprints: http://shop.dananddave.com/steamboat.html

And Bicycle Fan Backs: http://shop.dananddave.com/bicycle-new-fan-back.html

[Card Player]

Reading some of the things people have said about this deck is alarming. "I could never get the originals which people loved, so I will get these!" Why? The back design is terrible for magic and the only amazing aspect of them is completely gone. On top of that, you have the D&D logo on the cards.

While I agree with your assessment of Steamboats and don't understand the business logic in having Steamboats particularly reprinted by D&D, I don't have a problem with D&D's overall wanting to add the deck to their repertoire of customer choices. I think we all need to look at the big picture from D&D's standpoint and not as a single release on its own merit.

As for the New Fan Backs, I bought a brick of these bad boys for $4.95 a deck -15% discount. One of my favorite back designs and I have always loved that Old School Bicycle Box with the FAT Bicycle Font on the sides. Very happy to buy these.

[Don Boyer]

Reading some of the things people have said about this deck is alarming. "I could never get the originals which people loved, so I will get these!" Why? The back design is terrible for magic and the only amazing aspect of them is completely gone. On top of that, you have the D&D logo on the cards.

While I agree with on your assessment of Steamboats and don't understand the business logic in having Steamboats particularly reprinted by D&D, I don't have a problem with D&D's overall wanting to add the deck to their repertoire of customer choices. I think we all need to look at the big picture from D&D's standpoint and not as a single release on its own merit.

As for the New Fan Backs, I bought a brick of these bad boys for $4.95 a deck -15% discount. One of my favorite back designs and I have always loved that Old School Bicycle Box with the FAT Bicycle Font on the sides. Very happy to buy these.

If we're to believe the D&D ad copy, this deck does have a specially-prepared stock.  I've discovered that quantity of graphite glue and pressure used to create the paper can actually create subtle differences, just like the humidity levels they get stored at.  Making them smooth will also give them a stiffer feel.

The NFBs took me by surprise.  I didn't even realize they were there until I read it here.  Ended up placing a separate order for them and sent Syd a request to combine them if possible.

[Ben K]

Stop me if its been said already but...
I honestly like D&D. They are pushing on all grounds; cards, books, DVDs, heck they are even making an app for streaming videos. Maybe the USPCC is saying no to other companies just to shut that door and stop everyone from nagging. If all the companies where able to specify stock, finish and all the details I think that USPCC would come to a grinding halt due to trying to coordinate. Has anyone here ever gone into a print shop before? I don't mean kinkos either. They are chaos! You have to get to know the clerks too before they actually care. Buy the dude a drink and suddenly your stuff prints first.

I think in 10 years from now those who bought the bike vintage reprints will be happy they did. Embrace what you love before its gone because everything in life is limited edition. Including us.

[sr15]

If we're to believe the D&D ad copy, this deck does have a specially-prepared stock.

and if you believe that, D&D have a bridge themed deck to sell you

[Don Boyer]

If we're to believe the D&D ad copy, this deck does have a specially-prepared stock.

and if you believe that, D&D have a bridge themed deck to sell you

FUNNY!  I like that!

It's why I said, "If we're to believe the D&D ad copy," as opposed to "Them Bucks are speaking the honest truth, yessirree..."  They've always made claims with the S&M decks of proprietary stock and finish, and they're about as true as Linoid, Cambric and Air Cushion actually having a noteworthy difference from each other.  But as stated, smooth decks tend to be stiffer than embossed ones.  Shuffle the same CARC deck in the two "finishes" and you'll see the difference.  It can give a thin stock the "snappy" feeling they mentioned.

I'll know soon enough - I ordered some of both

[hecrob]

This could mean that maybe the steamboats and the new fan backs will be available shortly in my country in any store that sells Bicycle cards.
That happened with the Guardians, first they were only available through theory 11, now i can buy them anywhere.

So hopefully they will be here in maybe 6 months. I can wait

BTW Does anybody know how much time took for the Guardians to be availabel at stores like Target, Walmart, HEB, etc...??

[Don Boyer]

This could mean that maybe the steamboats and the new fan backs will be available shortly in my country in any store that sells Bicycle cards.
That happened with the Guardians, first they were only available through theory 11, now i can buy them anywhere.

So hopefully they will be here in maybe 6 months. I can wait

BTW Does anybody know how much time took for the Guardians to be availabel at stores like Target, Walmart, HEB, etc...??

I think it was either early 2012 or sometime in 2011, around the same time that Guardians v.2 came out with the matte-finish box.  Theory11 got into a partnership with USPC where T11 redesigned the website and they started doing deck collaborations.  The Guardians was their first collaboration.  The others to date are the Steam Punk deck (it came in three colors, of which USPC only carried two), Robocycle and the Archangels.  Robocycle was just an ugly deck, period.  Steam Punks were kind of a flop - the design was so-so to begin with and the USPC brass version used 100% standard faces except for the AoS and jokers.  But I'd call the others a success.

It's hard to gauge what will happen regarding USPC selling a USPC-branded version of these decks.  It's very possible that this "collaboration" is really just hype-speak for "we ordered these from them" and it's not really anything like what T11 is doing with USPC.  I do know they are not currently on sale at USPC's direct-sale website, Wingra Direct; that site usually carries all current USPC stock.  It remains to be seen if this will become a USPC deck as well as a D&D deck.

[Card Player]

It's why I said, "If we're to believe the D&D ad copy," as opposed to "Them Bucks are speaking the honest truth, yessirree..."  They've always made claims with the S&M decks of proprietary stock and finish, and they're about as true as Linoid, Cambric and Air Cushion actually having a noteworthy difference from each other.

@ Don: As you have mentioned to me once before, "not everybody that purchases playing cards is on these forums" and not everyone is as educated about the industry as most of us here.  D&D and other companies have a tendency of taking a superficial approach in describing their products. Andrei Jikh (theory11) said it best on unitedcardist.com referring to the Artisan Playing Cards, the target market is a 15 year old boy. If D&D is statistically following that philosophy, then its that marketing approach that they believe works best for their core target market.

[Michael]

Well my oder of NFB and Steamboats just shipped or at least finished processing so we shall see.

[Ben K]

I'll agree that ALL the companies speak through a veil. we have plenty of examples from each. But many here are doing it too. I can read between the lines and get the jist of it. I have stated my opinion about D&D but just want to add how I find it ironic that the same people bashing them are ordering BRICKS from them. If the companies being mentioned where that evil than why not boycott them.....or at least lie and don't tell us!

[sr15]

I'll agree that ALL the companies speak through a veil. we have plenty of examples from each. But many here are doing it too. I can read between the lines and get the jist of it. I have stated my opinion about D&D but just want to add how I find it ironic that the same people bashing them are ordering BRICKS from them. If the companies being mentioned where that evil than why not boycott them.....or at least lie and don't tell us!

as one of the more vocal D&D bashers in this thread, I have never once placed an order from their website. soooooooo.....there you go? I'm a consumer and a collector so I'm not going to boycott D&D if they actually put out a good release, but I'm not going to be sold on obvious bullshit. I actually haven't ordered from E, T11 or D&D in a very long time, besides the Treasury deck from E since I kind of guessed it might go the way of their previous "rare" decks.

[Ben K]

Sorry to all. I get that many here have a knowledgable background on many things related to cards but it can be tough to tell when they may be overstepping and putting there opinion behind it. Many of us here have come to learn. Somethings I hear contradict others and I have a hard finding the truth in this magic. I know I myself still have many threads bookmarked to read.

For the most part I agree with what's being said, but unless its a heartfelt warning or nudge to proceed I see it has no purpose if we are advancing cards and likes. I'm not trying to say everyone is evil and darn you all to heck, no way. I enjoy that everyone here is open in the discussion and has an opinion just remember that others have one too.

I happen to like about 85% of what most mentioned companies offer. If someone got seriously ripped off I can understand. But everything I have experience has been stellar. Out of everyone here, has anyone gotten burned buying a brick and then asked if they could return it or maybe something similar? I would be interested to hear. Could also make a great thread if it's not yet.

[Don Boyer]

It's why I said, "If we're to believe the D&D ad copy," as opposed to "Them Bucks are speaking the honest truth, yessirree..."  They've always made claims with the S&M decks of proprietary stock and finish, and they're about as true as Linoid, Cambric and Air Cushion actually having a noteworthy difference from each other.

@ Don: As you have mentioned to me once before, "not everybody that purchases playing cards is on these forums" and not everyone is as educated about the industry as most of us here.  D&D and other companies have a tendency of taking a superficial approach in describing their products. Andrei Jikh (theory11) said it best on unitedcardist.com referring to the Artisan Playing Cards, the target market is a 15 year old boy. If D&D is statistically following that philosophy, then its that marketing approach that they believe works best for their core target market.

I'm going to quote the full statements I made leading up to the edited portion you quoted above.

Reading some of the things people have said about this deck is alarming. "I could never get the originals which people loved, so I will get these!" Why? The back design is terrible for magic and the only amazing aspect of them is completely gone. On top of that, you have the D&D logo on the cards.

While I agree with on your assessment of Steamboats and don't understand the business logic in having Steamboats particularly reprinted by D&D, I don't have a problem with D&D's overall wanting to add the deck to their repertoire of customer choices. I think we all need to look at the big picture from D&D's standpoint and not as a single release on its own merit.

As for the New Fan Backs, I bought a brick of these bad boys for $4.95 a deck -15% discount. One of my favorite back designs and I have always loved that Old School Bicycle Box with the FAT Bicycle Font on the sides. Very happy to buy these.

If we're to believe the D&D ad copy, this deck does have a specially-prepared stock.  I've discovered that quantity of graphite glue and pressure used to create the paper can actually create subtle differences, just like the humidity levels they get stored at.  Making them smooth will also give them a stiffer feel.

The NFBs took me by surprise.  I didn't even realize they were there until I read it here.  Ended up placing a separate order for them and sent Syd a request to combine them if possible.

If we're to believe the D&D ad copy, this deck does have a specially-prepared stock.

and if you believe that, D&D have a bridge themed deck to sell you

FUNNY!  I like that!

It's why I said, "If we're to believe the D&D ad copy," as opposed to "Them Bucks are speaking the honest truth, yessirree..."  They've always made claims with the S&M decks of proprietary stock and finish, and they're about as true as Linoid, Cambric and Air Cushion actually having a noteworthy difference from each other.  But as stated, smooth decks tend to be stiffer than embossed ones.  Shuffle the same CARC deck in the two "finishes" and you'll see the difference.  It can give a thin stock the "snappy" feeling they mentioned.

I'll know soon enough - I ordered some of both

My statements stemmed from others saying that there's no likelihood that these new decks are going to perform like the originals because they aren't being made with the same stock or finish.  I stated reasons why they might have at least some of the original deck's properties, other than just design.  My statement about whether or not we believe the ad copy was not a judgment on their marketing practices.  Indeed, it's entirely possible the ad copy is telling the truth.  How probable that is, I couldn't say until I get my hands on my decks.

I have no doubt that a hefty number of their fans are 15-year-old boys.  But that's not the entire market.  It's not even a majority.  Jikh's description regarding the Artisan deck sounds specious, assuming your quote is accurate, just because I've never heard of a company targeting a single gender at a single age in years.  Unless what you're making is truly a niche product - and no, the Artisan deck doesn't qualify as such, since it's playing cards with a minimally custom design - you never target just "15-year-old boys" or 65-year-old women" or similar - you target a broader spectrum, like "males between 15-25 years old".  And that range I just wrote is much more like the real, legitimate range all of the major card design shops are targeting.  Of course, it's also the largest age and gender category on this forum as well, and probably over at UC, too.

[Card Player]

Quote from: Andrei Jikh on http://       unitedcardists.com        Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:12 pm

At the end of the day, we're an online magic company that makes magic tricks. Our main audience is 16 year old teenage boys. How much simpler does it get? We're not illuminati looking to make a quick profit from your $6.95. Seriously?

@ Don: Yes, I misquoted what was written by Andrei Jikh. I'm sure I don't have to explain this but I'm going to say it anyway. I write on this forum and others because I enjoy doing so. Unfortunately in this format I don't always take the time to do full research. I went with what I thought I remembered.

But that's not the entire market.  It's not even a majority.

@ Don: It does imply that 16 year old teenage boys are Theory11's main audience or as you put it "majority". D&D is not Theory11 but sell products to many of the same customers. In terms of target marketing is concerned, obviously they don't market to one single segment but it does "help to explain" the logic behind product descriptions for those in or around that segment.

I have stated my opinion about D&D but just want to add how I find it ironic that the same people bashing them are ordering BRICKS from them.

@ Ben K: I'm not sure who your comments are directed at? From what I can tell, I'm the only one who mentioned buying a brick of New Fan Backs. I don't see how what I wrote about the Steamboats would be considered bashing. I certainly would not boycott D&D. I have enjoyed many of their products.

[Don Boyer]

Quote from: Andrei Jikh on http://       unitedcardists.com        Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:12 pm

At the end of the day, we're an online magic company that makes magic tricks. Our main audience is 16 year old teenage boys. How much simpler does it get? We're not illuminati looking to make a quick profit from your $6.95. Seriously?

@ Don: Yes, I misquoted what was written by Andrei Jikh. I'm sure I don't have to explain this but I'm going to say it anyway. I write on this forum and others because I enjoy doing so. Unfortunately in this format I don't always take the time to do full research. I went with what I thought I remembered.

But that's not the entire market.  It's not even a majority.

@ Don: It does imply that 16 year old teenage boys are Theory11's main audience or as you put it "majority". D&D is not Theory11 but sell products to many of the same customers. In terms of target marketing is concerned, obviously they don't market to one single segment but it does "help to explain" the logic behind product descriptions for those in or around that segment.

At least you admitted getting the quote wrong.  Points for that.

But if you're trying to tell me that the MAJORITY (greater than 50%) of either D&D's customers or T11's customers are 16-year-old boys, there's a really pretty bridge downtown I'd like to offer you with low monthly payments available...  "Main audience" and "majority" are NOT the same thing.

[blastercast]

I'd like to chime in here then!
I am a 15 year old male and I personally have no issue with theory11 on certain fronts. Dan and Dave produce some beautiful and great handling decks, and I can speak truthfully here I own a lot of cards and some of theirs just are amazing!
But other times Dan and Dave really do just make shovelware decks, shovelware being produced cheap and sold :') I'm not going to boycott them for it, in the end of the day they have to make a buck or two :')
Their customer support is excellent, same with theory11! As for theory11 for magic they aren't worth it, I own smoke and that's excellent but I know Alan and knew how it worked so figured why not :')
Theory11 have produced some good decks but mainly shovelware :')
I don't believe either company is in the wrong and I will probably end up buying one of each of these decks to see how they handle because I have found that Dan and Dave decks usually feel great!
Sorry for sort of interjecting here!
-Benny