Bicycle Grid 2.0 from 4PM Designs (KS)

[ruicorreia]

   The Kickstarter backers of The Grid Deck received today the final update of the project where 4PM Designs clearly states that a new deck is coming.
   They release this blurry photo of what it seems an uncut sheet of the upcoming deck.
   The first obvious characteristic is that this new deck will have the same theme than The Grid.
   The second element is that it appears that, unlike the other deck, this could be a white deck. I've liked The Grid deck but I think I could like even more a similar deck without all the colours of the 1st deck, which can only be evaluated when more pictures are revealed.
   The third element is the possible name of the deck. I've indicated "The Grid Deck 2.0(?)" because the update finishes with this sentence: "Thank you all once again! Hope to see you all on 2.0"

[therealmackay]

Looks great - thanks for sharing!

[Pacis]

Definitely not black. Didn't got The Grid. Hope to check this one out.

[BastianBJ]

It's official now.

The next deck is called The Grid 2.0 and will be launched Thursday 7th at 4 pm est.
5 PM Designs have released a teaser/trailer/whatever-you-wanna-call-it-video which showcases the cards and the new feature they have been talking about, ultraviolet ink!

The deck will include fully custom playing cards as well as the tuck box, Magic Finish end Bee Casino Stock. The playing cards will also include hidden designs which only will be visible when using ultraviolet lighting.

[BastianBJ]

More pictures from 4 PM Designs

[Michael]

Although this deck is a little too "quirky" for my taste, the idea that shining UV light on it to reveal details or secrets is amazing. I think it's a really interesting idea. Again, unfortunately, I'm not a fan of the design. I find myself to be slightly adverse to these futuristic or electronic like designs.

[Don Boyer]

So, it's UV ink and not UV paper?  Interesting.  I remember the UV paper was prohibitively expensive, to the point where USPC doesn't offer it any longer.  David Blaine's White Lions Series A "rainbow" deck with the blue back was the last to use UV-reflective paper.  The only others I know of before that were the Bicycle Tragic Royalty (on which it was a waste due to an inked-in, all-gray background with only the courts having any visible paper surface) and the old Ellusionist UV500 decks.  Now that I think of it, Blaine's deck and the white and black Arcanes are the only ones to have used the stock that didn't bear the Bicycle brand name.

I'm curious enough to check it out when it debuts.

[nicknamehere]

I like the idea of the hidden designs, but am not sure of their practicality. I know they sell handheld UV lights, but pulling that out during a performance seems forced (especially to take advantage of the reveal). The other scenario I could see would be at a setting that uses UV light such as a club, but then my Ace of Hearts would always have the 8 of Hearts reveal and I'd have to make sure to keep that ace hidden throughout any of my performances. The hidden designs also make it look really busy.

[Don Boyer]

I like the idea of the hidden designs, but am not sure of their practicality. I know they sell handheld UV lights, but pulling that out during a performance seems forced (especially to take advantage of the reveal). The other scenario I could see would be at a setting that uses UV light such as a club, but then my Ace of Hearts would always have the 8 of Hearts reveal and I'd have to make sure to keep that ace hidden throughout any of my performances. The hidden designs also make it look really busy.

At one point not long ago, all of Ellusionist's decks were printed on UV-reflective stock.  It never made much difference then.  But the fact that design elements and hidden features are part of the UV portion of the design does make this different.  As far as "looking busy" - it's only the hidden part of the design that does that.  If you thought that was busy, you should look at the original Grid deck!

[nbrock]

These decks are soooo sweet !!! great job on them! 

[Xntrix]

Interesting - but they'll only sell on Kickstarter. Once reviews are in that they handle like crap, no one will be picking these up again. Luckily, on Kickstarter you can avoid all that by making everyone buy the decks before they're actually made. Smart, albeit underhanded, move.

The UV ink is a great gimmick, but a gimmick at the sacrifice of a the handling of the cards is very much cart-before-horse, form over function, more icing-than-cake. It's the same reason why Glow-in-the-dark cards never worked - the UV ink is laid on as a process after the printing of the cards has been done, as a physical layer. Granted, the finish is applied over this, but what you're left with is a deck of cards that feel like they have grains of sand between each card. It gives the deck an overall 'gritty' feel - much like the Tragic Royaltys. We experienced this problem with our first run of Tally-Ho Vipers - which we instantly shredded, because when you sell a deck that doesn't come up to scratch, it not only hurts those sales, but casts doubt on all future releases as well.

Depending on how 4pm are wanting to play this - whether it be only selling to those outside of the 'we care about the feel, not just the look' community, or the 'Neat deck of cards' laymen, I'd probably recommend getting a sample done in UV before promising to deliver on it.

Yet another reason I hate Kickstarter - opening up manufacturing avenues to those without the experience (or R&D funds) to know what the finished product will be before they promise delivery.

Best of luck to them.

-Jake

[xela]

UV ink? Isn't that what Tragic Royalty uses? Ick.

[Don Boyer]

UV ink? Isn't that what Tragic Royalty uses? Ick.

I think the "ick" part of Tragic Royalty was the gray background ink they used and it was the paper that was UV-reactive.  The only cards that reacted to UV were the courts, and only in the white parts where the paper showed through.  Those were really "ick" for handling.

Since no one's done it, here's the link on the now-active project:


http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/4pm/grid-20-bicycle-playing-cards

[Xntrix]

I think the "ick" part of Tragic Royalty was the gray background ink they used and it was the paper that was UV-reactive. 

Actually - I think you're right about that. There was something wrong with the Tragic Royaltys, but I don't know that it was the UV-reactive ink and/or paper that was the problem.

I standby my previous though. Reactive inks - UV, Glow, Thermochromic etc ruin the handling of cards. USPCC's tried many a time to bring something new to playing cards after the UV500 was discontinued, and every test was what Edison would call 'a way of not doing it'.

-Jake.

[Collector]

... Once reviews are in that they handle like crap, no one will be picking these up again...

-Jake

I think it's about cardists and magicians. It isn't so crucial for pure collectors. On the other hand only cardists and magicians buy playing cards by bricks.

...Yet another reason I hate Kickstarter - opening up manufacturing avenues to those without the experience (or R&D funds) to know what the finished product will be before they promise delivery....

-Jake

It will always depend on persons. I think a lot of people should take Kickstarter easy.

[off-topic]

Personally I think that Ellusionist can use Kickstarter as well. It can be useful for pure collectors. Cardists and magicians don't need really custom court cards but pure collectors need them. I understand that it isn't profitable to print 30000 runs of appropriate custom playing cards for cardists and magicians. Collectors won't buy such run also. But Ellusionist can do really nice custom playing cards and can use their experience (knowledge + established good relations with USPCC + established delivery ducts + their own well-known site + their reputation) for 2500 (5000) runs on Kickstarter. I think it can be profitable for Ellusionist. 2-3 fully custom decks per year. Xntrix, what do you think?

[/off-topic]

[Don Boyer]

... Once reviews are in that they handle like crap, no one will be picking these up again...

-Jake

I think it's about cardists and magicians. It isn't so crucial for pure collectors. On the other hand only cardists and magicians buy playing cards by bricks.

...Yet another reason I hate Kickstarter - opening up manufacturing avenues to those without the experience (or R&D funds) to know what the finished product will be before they promise delivery....

-Jake

It will always depend on persons. I think a lot of people should take Kickstarter easy.

[off-topic]

Personally I think that Ellusionist can use Kickstarter as well. It can be useful for pure collectors. Cardists and magicians don't need really custom court cards but pure collectors need them. I understand that it isn't profitable to print 30000 runs of appropriate custom playing cards for cardists and magicians. Collectors won't buy such run also. But Ellusionist can do really nice custom playing cards and can use their experience (knowledge + established good relations with USPCC + established delivery ducts + their own well-known site + their reputation) for 2500 (5000) runs on Kickstarter. I think it can be profitable for Ellusionist. 2-3 fully custom decks per year. Xntrix, what do you think?

[/off-topic]

Wow, where do I begin?

Collectors DO buy by the brick!  Most people in general have slowed their collecting, but they're the backbone of the market for custom decks right now.

Jake's comment referred to how a company like Ellusionist has resources to do test runs and experiment, whereas some Joe Designer who's never made a deck before doesn't.  The moment that happens, messes generally ensue.  Now, I'll grant you that 4PM Designs isn't entirely new to the field, but if they had R&D-level resources, they wouldn't be on Kickstarter.  Using what sounds like an untested process could become a disaster and the investors won't know until after the fact with no chance of a refund.

As far as suggesting that ELLUSIONIST use KICKSTARTER - are you really aware of the PURPOSE of Kickstarter?  KS is meant to take "the little guy" with the "big idea" and give them a shot to make it real - with the intent of launching a company.  Ellusionist is among the LAST companies that should be heading to Kickstarter.  In fact, many of these companies that keep coming back for more, over and over, should become independently-funded by now!  I'll grant you that it's a great way to grow a customer base, but at some point the baby bird's gotta leave the nest and become a big bird, don't you think?

[KPopFever605]

Upon seeing the design of the deck, I was absolutely amazed. The UV design and reveal also made me just drop my jaw. I haven't seen anything like that in a long time. However, as Jake chimed in, I am going to say that he's right on this one. Although it looks cool, it doesn't have much practicality and the people using the reveals mostly with also be looking for handling, which is something this deck falls short in. Good luck in the long run, but it's not for me.

[Collector]

[off-topic]

... Once reviews are in that they handle like crap, no one will be picking these up again...

-Jake

I think it's about cardists and magicians. It isn't so crucial for pure collectors. On the other hand only cardists and magicians buy playing cards by bricks.

...Yet another reason I hate Kickstarter - opening up manufacturing avenues to those without the experience (or R&D funds) to know what the finished product will be before they promise delivery....

-Jake

It will always depend on persons. I think a lot of people should take Kickstarter easy.

[off-topic]

Personally I think that Ellusionist can use Kickstarter as well. It can be useful for pure collectors. Cardists and magicians don't need really custom court cards but pure collectors need them. I understand that it isn't profitable to print 30000 runs of appropriate custom playing cards for cardists and magicians. Collectors won't buy such run also. But Ellusionist can do really nice custom playing cards and can use their experience (knowledge + established good relations with USPCC + established delivery ducts + their own well-known site + their reputation) for 2500 (5000) runs on Kickstarter. I think it can be profitable for Ellusionist. 2-3 fully custom decks per year. Xntrix, what do you think?

[/off-topic]

Wow, where do I begin?

Collectors DO buy by the brick!  Most people in general have slowed their collecting, but they're the backbone of the market for custom decks right now.

Cardists-collectors, magicians-collectors - yes (the most part on both forums). They use them for other purposes.

PURE collectors (in general) - NO. It doesn't have any sense for collecting purposes. People can understand that due to their head or due to their empty wallet. Both now help people to slow down their "collecting". Actually there is a big difference between a collection and a warehouse. I always like to read on the forum somethin like this:

"WOW, COOL, AMAZING, INCREDIBLE! What a nice deck! I am in!" - "WOW I've bought a brick! I am haaaappy!"

next day

"WOW, COOL, AMAZING, INCREDIBLE! What a nice deck!" - "I don't have enough money so I had to reject . I am sooo sad!"

Good heavens! Buy half a brick to save on shipping costs but you'll be able to buy both.

Can you imagine someone buying Mona Lisa by bricks? Ask your friends who collect stamps, coins, etc if they really need 12 the same stamps, coins, etc. In general only a small part of collectors have time to resell and only Americans have the best conditions for that.

Jake's comment referred to how a company like Ellusionist has resources to do test runs and experiment, whereas some Joe Designer who's never made a deck before doesn't.  The moment that happens, messes generally ensue.  Now, I'll grant you that 4PM Designs isn't entirely new to the field, but if they had R&D-level resources, they wouldn't be on Kickstarter.  Using what sounds like an untested process could become a disaster and the investors won't know until after the fact with no chance of a refund.

Don, I understand what Jake wanted to say about test runs, etc

As far as suggesting that ELLUSIONIST use KICKSTARTER - are you really aware of the PURPOSE of Kickstarter?  KS is meant to take "the little guy" with the "big idea" and give them a shot to make it real - with the intent of launching a company.  Ellusionist is among the LAST companies that should be heading to Kickstarter.  In fact, many of these companies that keep coming back for more, over and over, should become independently-funded by now!  I'll grant you that it's a great way to grow a customer base, but at some point the baby bird's gotta leave the nest and become a big bird, don't you think?

Don, you didn't understand me. It isn't a question of a "big bird", a "small bird" or a "fat turkey". It is a question of a "smart bird". Kickstarter is an instrument like a credit card, social media resources, cars, computers, etc. You can use them effectivly for your business or not. Can you imagine Ellusionist will say tomorrow "Hey Twitter is smaller than Facebook and we are a big bird so we won't use Twitter for advertising anymore"?

I don't think that Ellusionist is so "big bird" that they can withdraw $15000-20000 from their money turnover and to risk them producing a fully custom deck with innovative design without knowing the result of such production. But due to Kickstarter you can get a credit for such purpose and will know (before production) about a real and secured interest in such deck.

[/off-topic]

p.s. This is my last off-topic in this thread. I don't want to be disrespectful.
4PM Design, sorry for this off-topic in a thread about your deck.

[sway]

Well, guys, keep in mind Kickstarter is all about supporting initiatives from indie companies and individuals. It's nothing like a retail store, so it can be very misleading to make unhewn comparisons.

I pledged for The Grid 2.0 because - first of all - it's a cool looking deck; second cause it's a very fair price. I don't really care about the ink or other innovative features, but I appreciate the fact that 4PM is always trying to make something fresh.

[Don Boyer]

Well, guys, keep in mind Kickstarter is all about supporting initiatives from indie companies and individuals. It's nothing like a retail store, so it can be very misleading to make unhewn comparisons.

And that's precisely my point.  Kickstarter isn't meant to be a retailer.  It's one of the reasons why they've limited the amount of a goal's end-result product to no more than ten per tier (twelve for playing cards).  Ellusionist is many things, but they're no longer a little indie company.  Not saying they're huge, since the payroll's probably not much more than a dozen or so people, but they've been an ongoing business concern for years now that turns a profit..

[BastianBJ]

New update from 4 PM on The Grid 2.0 at Kickstarter

If they raise $47,444 before the deadline, they will include a free red The Grid 2.0 card for every pledge above $8. the card will not include the UV ink though.

Just wondered, what do you guys think about the red design? I really like it, I think it looks cool! I do prefer the original design though 

[KPopFever605]

Sadly, it didn't pass $47k, but I'm proud to have backed for the $4 reward, snagging a signed card. Now, I can see what the UV lighting looks like without the whole deck.

[4pm Designer]

Interesting - but they'll only sell on Kickstarter. Once reviews are in that they handle like crap, no one will be picking these up again. Luckily, on Kickstarter you can avoid all that by making everyone buy the decks before they're actually made. Smart, albeit underhanded, move.

The UV ink is a great gimmick, but a gimmick at the sacrifice of a the handling of the cards is very much cart-before-horse, form over function, more icing-than-cake. It's the same reason why Glow-in-the-dark cards never worked - the UV ink is laid on as a process after the printing of the cards has been done, as a physical layer. Granted, the finish is applied over this, but what you're left with is a deck of cards that feel like they have grains of sand between each card. It gives the deck an overall 'gritty' feel - much like the Tragic Royaltys. We experienced this problem with our first run of Tally-Ho Vipers - which we instantly shredded, because when you sell a deck that doesn't come up to scratch, it not only hurts those sales, but casts doubt on all future releases as well.

Depending on how 4pm are wanting to play this - whether it be only selling to those outside of the 'we care about the feel, not just the look' community, or the 'Neat deck of cards' laymen, I'd probably recommend getting a sample done in UV before promising to deliver on it.

Yet another reason I hate Kickstarter - opening up manufacturing avenues to those without the experience (or R&D funds) to know what the finished product will be before they promise delivery.

Best of luck to them.

-Jake

I'm a little late to the party considering I don't come on this board much anymore but figured id drop in to check out our thread and address this. For one, please don't try to pass speculation as fact. What your company has done with UV is not what we have done so please don't use your experiences to try and bring down another's. The FACT is that the deck handles exactly like any other Bee casino stock deck with a magic finish AKA Great. I'm actually quite surprised someone representing a well known company like E will come on a forum to bash someone else's deck....before it had even been produced. A classy move it is not. E is not the only company that can get the USPCC to use new techniques or "finishes". The GRID 2.0 utilizes UV inks NOT UV Paper and does NOT have that sandy feel or is compatible to decks like Tragic Royalty. Yes, my decks are funded through KS, but just because a shit load of crappy decks emerge from there doesnt mean you should lump all our decks together. As some people have mentioned, we have no problem taking chances to try an innovate instead of releasing yet another overhyped recolored deck.

Up until this point I've had a lot of respect for E, but it's a shame a representative of theirs has to ruin that. As I noticed a lot of bashing coming out of your camp towards KS decks, I would've expected a company to be handled in a less negative manner. The only thing this proves is that there are enough indie designers that can shake things up enough to attract such negativity from the "bigger ups".

For those who have supported us along the way, we are more than grateful! Thank you

[Don Boyer]

Interesting - but they'll only sell on Kickstarter. Once reviews are in that they handle like crap, no one will be picking these up again. Luckily, on Kickstarter you can avoid all that by making everyone buy the decks before they're actually made. Smart, albeit underhanded, move.

The UV ink is a great gimmick, but a gimmick at the sacrifice of a the handling of the cards is very much cart-before-horse, form over function, more icing-than-cake. It's the same reason why Glow-in-the-dark cards never worked - the UV ink is laid on as a process after the printing of the cards has been done, as a physical layer. Granted, the finish is applied over this, but what you're left with is a deck of cards that feel like they have grains of sand between each card. It gives the deck an overall 'gritty' feel - much like the Tragic Royaltys. We experienced this problem with our first run of Tally-Ho Vipers - which we instantly shredded, because when you sell a deck that doesn't come up to scratch, it not only hurts those sales, but casts doubt on all future releases as well.

Depending on how 4pm are wanting to play this - whether it be only selling to those outside of the 'we care about the feel, not just the look' community, or the 'Neat deck of cards' laymen, I'd probably recommend getting a sample done in UV before promising to deliver on it.

Yet another reason I hate Kickstarter - opening up manufacturing avenues to those without the experience (or R&D funds) to know what the finished product will be before they promise delivery.

Best of luck to them.

-Jake

I'm a little late to the party considering I don't come on this board much anymore but figured id drop in to check out our thread and address this. For one, please don't try to pass speculation as fact. What your company has done with UV is not what we have done so please don't use your experiences to try and bring down another's. The FACT is that the deck handles exactly like any other Bee casino stock deck with a magic finish AKA Great. I'm actually quite surprised someone representing a well known company like E will come on a forum to bash someone else's deck....before it had even been produced. A classy move it is not. E is not the only company that can get the USPCC to use new techniques or "finishes". The GRID 2.0 utilizes UV inks NOT UV Paper and does NOT have that sandy feel or is compatible to decks like Tragic Royalty. Yes, my decks are funded through KS, but just because a shit load of crappy decks emerge from there doesnt mean you should lump all our decks together. As some people have mentioned, we have no problem taking chances to try an innovate instead of releasing yet another overhyped recolored deck.

Up until this point I've had a lot of respect for E, but it's a shame a representative of theirs has to ruin that. As I noticed a lot of bashing coming out of your camp towards KS decks, I would've expected a company to be handled in a less negative manner. The only thing this proves is that there are enough indie designers that can shake things up enough to attract such negativity from the "bigger ups".

For those who have supported us along the way, we are more than grateful! Thank you

Y'know, something comes to mind here...

Xntrix/Jake has a point in that a first- or second-time Kickstarter project creator doesn't have the funds needed to experiment and play with what's available.  In fact, most don't even have the resources to be considered "worthy" by USPC of anything more than two choices of stock, two choices of embossing, two choices of finish, that's it - the rest is bells and whistles and costs a good deal extra.

But I also see an opportunity here.

Jake didn't once knock the artwork for the Grid 2.0 deck - he was knocking the process by which it would be made, which is as much the fault of USPC as anyone else.  He talks a good game about how E does that kind of experimenting and has those resources.  Then why doesn't E set up a program, or even just a contest, for novice deck designers to have a shot at impressing E, in exchange for which E will pay them and print the design, bringing them in the know of how that process of experimentation takes place?

There are some designs that frankly I think knock the socks of some recent E decks (not all, just some) - E should consider putting its money and experience where its mouth is and put out a call for creative talent.  It need not even be an "open door" thing - maybe a contest once or twice a year.  I would bet almost anything that (while there will be a lot of crap that comes through their door) they will also find a good number of gems, either fully polished or close enough to it to grab their attention.  To reduce the chaff-to-wheat ratio, they should require that a deck be a fully-completed work, not some idea a kid sketched on a napkin at lunch - if a potential competitor lacked their own skills, they would have to find a designer that has them in spades before making a submission.  And things like "Hey, I have this cool idea for a Rider Back deck - make it chartreuse and puce!" wouldn't even be considered - you need a complete and ORIGINAL concept with art that's at least 95% ready for press.