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Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)

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Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« on: March 01, 2013, 01:08:28 PM »
 

Loop Cuts

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I have a wonderful and healthy debate for us to get into! 

Not long ago, dear Alex made a short post about the fact that ink to stock ratio is a myth and does not exist.  I am the person that came up with the theory and still believes in it today.   I think it would be great to challenge Alex and anyone else’s opinions to reexamine the so called myth to determine if in fact it is one.   My end goal is to put this theory to bed once and for all.  If a sufficient amount of logic is introduced against the theory, I will officially stat it is a myth and will encourage its demise.  However, if the theory logically proves to seem logical by the end of this debate, I would like to encourage the spread of the concept to change how people review a deck. 

let the fun begin!    :bosswalk:
 

Re: Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2013, 07:34:19 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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It's simple, Robert.  I have "normal" decks and all-black decks - they perform pretty much the same way.

Your ink-to-stock ratio idea came around while USPC was still in the "shakedown" phase of the Kentucky plant.  Many decks took a hit in quality and it had nothing to do with the quantity of ink on them.  It just so happened that black decks were a big deal back then.

If the theory held water, I'd be able to order a new pack each of white and black Arcanes and they'd perform differently.  That's not the case - I recently did order as described and the performance was identical.
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Re: Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2013, 08:54:27 PM »
 

Loop Cuts

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Ahh, interesting observation Don, however, I didn’t develop my theory based on the move from one plant to another.  I developed this theory based on the fact that the paper would become less resistant to the abuse we subject playing cards to.  Which in turn means they would break down faster based on how much ink was in the paper. 

As far as you ordering the deck and them handling the same, that’s hog wash.  No disrespected intended, just my figure of speech.  The fact is that a black deck truly is softer and will break down faster.  That’s how I began to pick up on the theory in the first place.  Most deck reviews are highly circumstantial since decks are sensitive to humidity levels and how sweaty and dirty the hands are on average that handles them.  That is not a point that many would argue so answer this, If a deck is so sensitive to those aspects, why say that ink to stock ratio is in fact not real?

Cheers ;)
 

Re: Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2013, 08:59:37 PM »
 

MrMollusk

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It's simple, Robert.  I have "normal" decks and all-black decks - they perform pretty much the same way.

Your ink-to-stock ratio idea came around while USPC was still in the "shakedown" phase of the Kentucky plant.  Many decks took a hit in quality and it had nothing to do with the quantity of ink on them.  It just so happened that black decks were a big deal back then.

If the theory held water, I'd be able to order a new pack each of white and black Arcanes and they'd perform differently.  That's not the case - I recently did order as described and the performance was identical.

Hrm. My personal experience with heavily inked cards is that they tend to clump less than a deck without ink.
Karnaival Dead Eyes were some of the first cards I got, along with the Renegades. While the renegades were initially on par with the Dead Eyes, they started to clump. The Dead Eyes are nearly a year old, and still fanning strong with regular use.
Maybe that's coincidence, though.
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
 

Re: Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2013, 09:12:12 PM »
 

xela

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I still don't think it's a thing. At most I could see it changing how the card FEELS, but what IS a myth is its impact on durability.

Seriously though, someone needs to knock on a certain deck reviewer's door and inform them that they're lying to their subs.
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Re: Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2013, 11:39:10 PM »
 

nimblewitted

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Isn't, at least with regards to feeling, easy enough to test?

Just take two decks with the same stock & finish (both new) but with one being a black version and the other being the white version and perform a blind test?

I personally just did this with the Seasons decks. Honestly, before the test, I thought for sure I'd know which was which, but after repeated failures in my guesses, I came to the conclusion that the results are inconclusive--I simply couldn't differentiate the two.
 

Re: Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2013, 12:03:55 AM »
 

MrMollusk

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someone needs to knock on a certain deck reviewer's door and inform them that they're lying to their subs.

Who?
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
 

Re: Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2013, 12:12:20 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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It's simple, Robert.  I have "normal" decks and all-black decks - they perform pretty much the same way.

Your ink-to-stock ratio idea came around while USPC was still in the "shakedown" phase of the Kentucky plant.  Many decks took a hit in quality and it had nothing to do with the quantity of ink on them.  It just so happened that black decks were a big deal back then.

If the theory held water, I'd be able to order a new pack each of white and black Arcanes and they'd perform differently.  That's not the case - I recently did order as described and the performance was identical.

Hrm. My personal experience with heavily inked cards is that they tend to clump less than a deck without ink.
Karnaival Dead Eyes were some of the first cards I got, along with the Renegades. While the renegades were initially on par with the Dead Eyes, they started to clump. The Dead Eyes are nearly a year old, and still fanning strong with regular use.
Maybe that's coincidence, though.

The Renegades were an earlier deck - made around the transition time from late 2009 through most if not all of 2010.  Plus I'm not certain but it's possible that the Dead Eyes had Magic Finish - I just can't remember.

Ahh, interesting observation Don, however, I didn’t develop my theory based on the move from one plant to another.  I developed this theory based on the fact that the paper would become less resistant to the abuse we subject playing cards to.  Which in turn means they would break down faster based on how much ink was in the paper. 

As far as you ordering the deck and them handling the same, that’s hog wash.  No disrespected intended, just my figure of speech.  The fact is that a black deck truly is softer and will break down faster.  That’s how I began to pick up on the theory in the first place.  Most deck reviews are highly circumstantial since decks are sensitive to humidity levels and how sweaty and dirty the hands are on average that handles them.  That is not a point that many would argue so answer this, If a deck is so sensitive to those aspects, why say that ink to stock ratio is in fact not real?

Cheers ;)


OK, let's talk about that "absorption" you're talking about.  Have you ever split a playing card?  Peel away one layer while leaving the graphite-laced glue and the other layer intact?  If absorption was any kind of a factor, I'd see some kind of bleed-through due to absorption or something.  But consistently, every time I split a deck I never see so much as a single drop.  I remove a card back covered in ink - no bleed-through; I remove a card face, only lightly covered in ink - SAME EXACT THING.

The white surface of the paper used to make cardstock has some sort of coating - it's the white background on which cards are printed.  Ink remains on the surface of that and doesn't bleed through.  It dries right where it was put.  The finish coating protects that ink from getting worn off in addition to giving it improved glide and slip.

Don't believe me?  Try another magician's trick with homemade gaffs: removing pips.  All it takes is a little (VERY little) nail polish remover to strip away the finish coat and wipe the ink off, leaving only a white surface behind.  If you did it to a black deck, you'd remove all the ink - the pip and the black-ink background - so it's not a technique used with anything other than "white-faced" cards.  If there were serious absorption issues, you'd have to wear the card down to near the glue layer if not through to remove ink from the surface, not simply wipe along its surface.  Lybrary.com has many resources explaining some of these techniques, right up to manufacturing your own cards.

I'd be curious to hear your counter argument, Rob.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 12:12:41 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2013, 02:04:36 AM »
 

Aaron

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It doesn't make any sense the theory. A white deck has just as much ink as a black deck it is just white ink not black ink. so it doesnt even make sense.
People say nothing's impossible, but I do nothing everyday.

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Re: Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2013, 03:31:07 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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It doesn't make any sense the theory. A white deck has just as much ink as a black deck it is just white ink not black ink. so it doesnt even make sense.
I don't know if the white on a card is ink per se, but USPC doesn't apply white in the printing press.  Just like if I bought a ream of paper at the store, it comes white and I don't need to apply white ink to it.

No matter how you slice it, though, the ink/paper ratio theory is what's looking more like hogwash.  A card's durability is more affected by the finish on it than the ink under the finish.
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Re: Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2013, 01:35:00 PM »
 

MrMollusk

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It's simple, Robert.  I have "normal" decks and all-black decks - they perform pretty much the same way.

Your ink-to-stock ratio idea came around while USPC was still in the "shakedown" phase of the Kentucky plant.  Many decks took a hit in quality and it had nothing to do with the quantity of ink on them.  It just so happened that black decks were a big deal back then.

If the theory held water, I'd be able to order a new pack each of white and black Arcanes and they'd perform differently.  That's not the case - I recently did order as described and the performance was identical.

Hrm. My personal experience with heavily inked cards is that they tend to clump less than a deck without ink.
Karnaival Dead Eyes were some of the first cards I got, along with the Renegades. While the renegades were initially on par with the Dead Eyes, they started to clump. The Dead Eyes are nearly a year old, and still fanning strong with regular use.
Maybe that's coincidence, though.

The Renegades were an earlier deck - made around the transition time from late 2009 through most if not all of 2010.  Plus I'm not certain but it's possible that the Dead Eyes had Magic Finish - I just can't remember.


The Dead eyes had Air Cushion finish.  Just like the renegades. That's odd. Maybe the durability difference is attributed to the time gap of manufacturing.
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
 

Re: Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2013, 04:52:32 PM »
 

Gunshy1

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is this the same robert that scammed people?
have you heard the word???
 

Re: Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2013, 05:27:03 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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The Dead eyes had Air Cushion finish.  Just like the renegades. That's odd. Maybe the durability difference is attributed to the time gap of manufacturing.

USPC had some issues at the new plant in Erlanger when card manufacturing was fully moved there, in August of 2009.  It was literally a shake-down period of the new hardware, and some of their custom work in that period took a hit in quality.  Many decks made then had a finish that didn't hold up for very long.

Also, "Air Cushion" doesn't mean much - many recent custom decks say that, but some of those actually have Magic Finish.  You can tell the difference using the sniff test; Magic Finish has a sharper chemical odor than the USPC standard finish.

No matter how you slice it, however, it has nothing to do with the amount of ink used on the surface of the card.
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Re: Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2013, 07:58:07 PM »
 

Gunshy1

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is this the same robert that scammed people?

my question stands. im not joking, i actually want to know  :)   (put the smiley cause i dont want this to be interpreted as dickish, im honestly just wondering).
have you heard the word???
 

Re: Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2013, 08:30:41 PM »
 

xela

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is this the same robert that scammed people?

my question stands. im not joking, i actually want to know  :)   (put the smiley cause i dont want this to be interpreted as dickish, im honestly just wondering).
As far as I know nobody got scammed, he was just slow to ship and then made a new persona to market a deck for someone.
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Re: Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2013, 11:04:21 AM »
 

Loop Cuts

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Sorry for the late reply but you gave me a great deal to think about Don.  After taking a few days to put some serious thought into this debate and all the evidence that surrounds the debate, I'll have to say this is officially a myth.  But debunking this theory didn't just come with a simple end.  After speaking with a very close source connected with the USPCC, I've concluded that playing cards in general are judged on a 100% circumstantial basis.  I agree now that a decks durability is based solely on the life expectancy of a finish and most finishes are way too close to even justify comparing them. Even if one did try to compare them, most of there opinions would still derive from circumstantial events that would lead to an inaccurate judge of quality.  I therefore come to a new conclusion that deck reviews are pointless since they are all circumstantial based on how different peoples hands are and the oils they carry.  I think this debate makes decks rather simple to evaluate now.  Do they appeal to you and are they innovative?  The answer is something that will differ to each and everyone of us. 

Thanks for a healthy debate Don!  Until next time...

Cheers
 

Re: Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2013, 12:00:56 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Sorry for the late reply but you gave me a great deal to think about Don.  After taking a few days to put some serious thought into this debate and all the evidence that surrounds the debate, I'll have to say this is officially a myth.  But debunking this theory didn't just come with a simple end.  After speaking with a very close source connected with the USPCC, I've concluded that playing cards in general are judged on a 100% circumstantial basis.  I agree now that a decks durability is based solely on the life expectancy of a finish and most finishes are way too close to even justify comparing them. Even if one did try to compare them, most of there opinions would still derive from circumstantial events that would lead to an inaccurate judge of quality.  I therefore come to a new conclusion that deck reviews are pointless since they are all circumstantial based on how different peoples hands are and the oils they carry.  I think this debate makes decks rather simple to evaluate now.  Do they appeal to you and are they innovative?  The answer is something that will differ to each and everyone of us. 

Thanks for a healthy debate Don!  Until next time...

Cheers

What's really become the "great equalizer" in handling is Magic Finish.  Ever since USPC made it the default finish for custom decks, most new custom decks have extremely similar handling characteristics.  The biggest performance difference you're likely to find now is in the paper, and even there USPC has done a bit of jiggering to make more decks handle like other decks.

At one time, not long ago, there was a big variety of stocks - Aristocrat, Tally Ho, Bicycle, Bicycle Casino, Bee, Bee Casino and who knows how many more.  You do realize that they use the same paper to make all of these stocks?  And that their characteristics have more to do with how much glue was used to make them and how much pressure was applied at the time?  It was pretty complicated from their perspective and probably difficult to consistently make.

Today, you have two choices - Bicycle (standard) and Bee Casino.  But they've dropped the standard of measuring papers in grams per square meter (gsm) and now rate the paper on thickness.  Now - and this is the really good part - the paper thickness of each stock is not 100% consistent, so USPC states that either stock would come within a certain thickness range, and they don't offer you the choice of how thick or thin you get your paper.  Worse still - the ranges OVERLAP, meaning a Bicycle stock made on the thick end of its thickness range could end up thicker than a Bee Casino stock on the thin end of its range!

And don't forget - humidity also plays a factor.  Based on information I got from a well-known magician with his own brand of cards and deep knowledge of USPC, the print shop is not a sealed, humidity-controlled environment.  They use climate controls in the room where the stock is stored, generally for a period of about two weeks, but once it hits the print shop, anything goes.  The finish is a flexible plastic coating that's largely immune to simple humidity, but the paper is practically a living, breathing thing.  When a deck starts going soggy in a humid place, it's got more to do with the paper, since the coating isn't impermeable nor is it waterproof.

So as far as judging criteria, finish on all custom USPC decks are basically identical now.  Paper is the real factor, and for the most part, there's enough consistency that you might not notice a huge difference beyond stiffness and flexibility.  But the difference does exist, and some people will swear by a certain characteristic set in their paper.  Beyond that, you have design aspects.

While it's true that art is subjective, there are objective observations that can be made.  Does the deck have borders?  How thin are they?  How easy is it to read the indices?  How easy is it to see them in a fan?  Are the pips traditionally colored or do they use a unique scheme?  Is that scheme easy to read?  Does the deck contain imagery that would be considered not family friendly or not suitable for work?  I even check the alignment and width of the index characters - some people simply use a right alignment, and if the pips and values aren't matched in size, it can look a bit off.  Additionally, there's the one double-digit value in the whole deck, the tens.  Some people create a "10" that's two characters wide, because let's face it, it is two characters.  But this will definitely throw off the alignment - if your opponent is spreading his cards wider at certain points in his hand, odds would be with a deck like this that he's holding a ten at each of those points!  If you've ever wondered why the "10" in USPC standard faces is so slim, with a sans-serif stick for the "1" and a "0" that's far more of a skinny oval than a round circle, the answer would be consistent index width - that "10" is pretty much as wide as all the other single-character values.

So no, deck reviews are neither pointless nor are they completely subjective.
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Re: Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2013, 07:06:10 AM »
 

Loop Cuts

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But with all that considered, at what point does our passion begin feeding a placebo effect. We find it because we want to.  Most differences you mentioned are real but are so small that only the placebo effect feeds our need to critically judge a deck. 
 

Re: Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2013, 09:07:40 AM »
 

Russell CircleCityCards

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=I'll have to say this is officially a myth.

Thank fucking god, lock this topic and let it die already.
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Re: Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2013, 09:58:23 AM »
 

sr15

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Sorry for the late reply but you gave me a great deal to think about Don.  After taking a few days to put some serious thought into this debate and all the evidence that surrounds the debate, I'll have to say this is officially a myth.  But debunking this theory didn't just come with a simple end.  After speaking with a very close source connected with the USPCC, I've concluded that playing cards in general are judged on a 100% circumstantial basis.  I agree now that a decks durability is based solely on the life expectancy of a finish and most finishes are way too close to even justify comparing them. Even if one did try to compare them, most of there opinions would still derive from circumstantial events that would lead to an inaccurate judge of quality.  I therefore come to a new conclusion that deck reviews are pointless since they are all circumstantial based on how different peoples hands are and the oils they carry.  I think this debate makes decks rather simple to evaluate now.  Do they appeal to you and are they innovative?  The answer is something that will differ to each and everyone of us. 

Thanks for a healthy debate Don!  Until next time...

Cheers

A day that will truly be regarded as a landmark day in human history. The day that Robert officially, authoritatively, and legally declared this a myth. Truly we are blessed to have been a part of this moment.
 

Re: Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2013, 01:35:23 PM »
 

Loop Cuts

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A day that will truly be regarded as a landmark day in human history. The day that Robert officially, authoritatively, and legally declared this a myth. Truly we are blessed to have been a part of this moment.

Not really sure why you'd bother posting if you were not going to contribute at all to the conversation.  On the other hand I don't suppose it's a genuine online debate unless a troll left there mark. 
 

Re: Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2013, 01:54:36 PM »
 

John B.

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Because a lot of us really don't like you (dare I say hate?) We want to be aholes and comment like this. but on topic. I am glad the debate is over, though I feel even if changes are small you can tell whats what and have an opinion of what you like.
Do you guys even read this? Like I could have the meaning of life here and I doubt you would know it.
 

Re: Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2013, 02:08:18 PM »
 

Loop Cuts

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Because a lot of us really don't like you (dare I say hate?) We want to be aholes and comment like this. but on topic. I am glad the debate is over, though I feel even if changes are small you can tell whats what and have an opinion of what you like.

I understand that but in retrospect some of you are in the dark on the facts (dare I say ignorant?)  Trusting one persons word over anything else is hardly justifying to the way some of you treat me. 
 

Re: Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2013, 03:16:12 PM »
 

Gunshy1

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Whatever. Ur a scam in the eyes of many people and you have done nothing to change that. You can pretend you've done so much for the community, but you haven't.

Just my 2 cents
have you heard the word???
 

Re: Ink to Stock Ratio ( The Final Debate)
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2013, 03:55:41 PM »
 

Loop Cuts

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Whatever. Ur a scam in the eyes of many people and you have done nothing to change that. You can pretend you've done so much for the community, but you haven't.

Just my 2 cents

Rather than go back and forth in mutually disrespectful ways, let's hash this out.  I know that I appear that way in the eyes of a few but its a bit unfair to say I've done nothing to change that when I have.  People have stated on Facebook and uc at some point that I did pay them back.  I also made a very long post on uc about what happened and how things spiraled out of control for me.  I've even public ally and privately apologized to CBJ for our falling out even though he continues to hit me with train after train of attacks saying don't trust him. 

And I really will sit here and tell you, I KNOW I've done a lot for the playing card community.  I don't do it to brag and that's why many don't know just how many projects I've been apart of behind the curtain.  I do it because I'm genuinely in love with cards and love helping market and consult for those in need.  If you want to judge my character then judge it knowing I purposely told cbj I was screwing vanda to save vanda from his wrath that he has so freely treated me with.  I was trying to be honest with him and he made a direct threat against them.  I took a hit for someone because that's who I am, not a scammer.