Madison Dealers by Ellusionist

[Card Player]

Makes perfect sense to me. I'm reminded of CARC's recent Bee Erdnase 216 deck in which the art was not as clear as we see on current decks because they were supposed to be direct scans of a very old deck of cards. I liked the way those decks turned out partially due to the finish but also due to the art that made it look old.

Funny how one deck (Dealers) can make you interested in another. I was actually looking at the Erdnase 216 Bee Deck just the other day with intention to buy. I could not get past the one way back. I did not want to buy it strictly on historical incentive. I know CARC is trying to be as accurate to the original as possible but I find it hard to believe in today's age of custom decks, there was no wanting to update this seamless back design to a TWO way? What would Erdnase have done if it were even conceivable then.

[Don Boyer]

Makes perfect sense to me. I'm reminded of CARC's recent Bee Erdnase 216 deck in which the art was not as clear as we see on current decks because they were supposed to be direct scans of a very old deck of cards. I liked the way those decks turned out partially due to the finish but also due to the art that made it look old.

Funny how one deck (Dealers) can make you interested in another. I was actually looking at the Erdnase 216 Bee Deck just the other day with intention to buy. I could not get past the one way back. I did not want to buy it strictly on historical incentive. I know CARC is trying to be as accurate to the original as possible but I find it hard to believe in today's age of custom decks, there was no wanting to update this seamless back design to a TWO way? What would Erdnase have done if he lived in this age of custom decks?

The 216s looked the way they looked because the original deck they were made from looked exactly as printed.  Printing methods were not as technologically advanced in terms of what playing card companies were using.  The companies making cards circa 1902 had only recently begun adopting mechanically-driven presses with any serious degree of automation - they'd be considered pretty crude by today's standards.  I've actually seen and held the deck that was used as the model for this deck.

Don't just consider the deck for the design - check this topic for more information about what went into making the 216s.  No one can know for certain if this was the deck used as the model for M.D. Smith's illustrations in the original book, but it's the closest design anyone's seen to what was available at the time the book was written.

What would Erdnase have done?  He'd have likely used any tools at his disposal that he could get away with using either in front of an audience or at a card table!  One-way decks of this subtle a nature were among the weapons of a magician's or a gambler's arsenal - and to some extent still are today.  I'm certain that marked and "shaved" (stripper) decks would have been found in his traveling kit, as well!

[Card Player]

The 216s looked the way they looked because the original deck they were made from looked exactly as printed.  Printing methods were not as technologically advanced in terms of what playing card companies were using.  The companies making cards circa 1902 had only recently begun adopting mechanically-driven presses with any serious degree of automation - they'd be considered pretty crude by today's standards.  I've actually seen and held the deck that was used as the model for this deck.

I realize this. That is basically what I'm saying. CARC is being as accurate to the original design as possible. Strangely, wasn't the original deck a blue back? It just seems feasible considering old printing methods in 1902 and CARC's own adaption of the deck (color change), a updated two way back design could have been considered.

We are not even sure if this is the deck Erdnase used. CARC is basing it off of time period and a interpretation of a 1902 illustration. The illustration theory is far fetched. This might have been a deck Erdnase "would" have used around the time of expert at the card table but its only a small period of time in an entire mans life.

Don't just consider the deck for the design - check this topic for more information about what went into making the 216s.  No one can know for certain if this was the deck used as the model for M.D. Smith's illustrations in the original book, but it's the closest design anyone's seen to what was available at the time the book was written.

I'm NOT considering buying 216s for the design. I would consider it for the historical value but I don't want it for that reason alone. The thin stiff stock and special finish has been used before to advertise a deck of cards. I have plenty of thinner stock decks.

[Don Boyer]

I realize this. That is basically what I'm saying. CARC is being as accurate to the original design as possible. Strangely, wasn't the original deck a blue back? It just seems feasible considering old printing methods in 1902 and CARC's own adaption of the deck (color change), a updated two way back design could have been considered.

While the original deck was blue, the colors used are authentic to the period.  Bill Kalush wanted as authentic a reproduction as he could achieve.  USPC, however, did not permit him to use the original NYCCC AoS, forcing him to use a modern Bee AoS.  His choice of the colors probably had more to do with them being less common - this is by no means a common deck.

We are not even sure if this is the deck Erdnase used. CARC is basing it off of time period and a interpretation of a 1902 illustration. The illustration theory is far fetched. This might have been a deck Erdnase "would" have used around the time of expert at the card table but its only a small period of time in an entire mans life.

It's not impossible.  We know that he used a Bee deck for the illustrations, since there's an illustration that shows the distinctive AoS.  The artist could have just as easily drawn a quick cross-hatch to represent the back of a Diamond Back deck, but he didn't - he specifically used that squiggle design.  Since there is a deck that existed at the time that was both a Bee deck and had a similar back design to the illustration, it's not implausible to think it might have been the actual deck used in the illustrations.  Of course, he could simply have been drawing a generic pattern to represent the deck back, but then why go through the trouble of reproducing in small scale the unique Bee AoS?

I'm NOT considering buying 216s for the design. I would consider it for the historical value but I don't want it for that reason alone. The thin stiff stock and special finish has been used before to advertise a deck of cards. I have plenty of thinner stock decks.

As you wish.  But you should at least check out someone else's deck before passing judgment on the stock and finish.

[RobotsEatCookies]

Daniel Madison does have red/scarlet rounders. I found this on his facebook page, posted 40 minutes ago:

[Card Player]

Daniel Madison does have red/scarlet rounders. I found this on his facebook page, posted 40 minutes ago:

This is a Dealers thread. The thread for Scarlet Rounders was already created.

[RobotsEatCookies]

Really? I thought this was originally a Scarlet Rounders thread, and then it turned into dealers. Oh well.

[Don Boyer]

It was a red Rounders topic.  Past tense.  We thought the red Rounders would be the next release, but the Dealers came out instead.  We do have a new topic for red Rounders, though.

[entrails]

E just released a new promotion to get a deck of scarlet dealers. All you have to do is spend $111.00 by July 28th. Or if you already have the Mechanic DVD on preorder you can spend $51 dollars more on E products. It would appear this kind of promotion is just like we/many of us thought was going to happen with the use of these scarlet decks, just not so soon. Clever use of these "rare" decks by both E and Madison.

Also the question must now be asked if these latest scarlet dealer decks are from the 400 or so that E was given originally from Madison's personal stash that they reported had sold out or in the least  were said to be no longer available  with the orders of the bricks of the green dealers? Or instead, are these from decks given to E beyond those first 400 scarlets?

[Don Boyer]

Also the question must now be asked if these latest scarlet dealer decks are from the 400 or so that E was given originally from Madison's personal stash that they reported had sold out or in the least  were said to be no longer available  with the orders of the bricks of the green dealers? Or instead, are these from decks given to E beyond those first 400 scarlets?

Actually, the bigger question would be - why does it matter?  There's only 2,500 decks and you can't buy them at retail.  'Nuff said.  It is a pretty sweet deal, though, especially for those of us who pre-ordered.

[Card Player]

Also the question must now be asked if these latest scarlet dealer decks are from the 400 or so that E was given originally from Madison's personal stash that they reported had sold out or in the least  were said to be no longer available  with the orders of the bricks of the green dealers? Or instead, are these from decks given to E beyond those first 400 scarlets?

Actually, the bigger question would be - why does it matter?  There's only 2,500 decks and you can't buy them at retail.  'Nuff said.  It is a pretty sweet deal, though, especially for those of us who pre-ordered.

This is a sweet deal. I'm going to look into this more tonight.

Shouldn't this have been posted on the Madison Dealers thread? Out of respect for the Ellusionist promotion, can we move this from a Theory11 Scarlet Players thread?

[Don Boyer]

Also the question must now be asked if these latest scarlet dealer decks are from the 400 or so that E was given originally from Madison's personal stash that they reported had sold out or in the least  were said to be no longer available  with the orders of the bricks of the green dealers? Or instead, are these from decks given to E beyond those first 400 scarlets?

Actually, the bigger question would be - why does it matter?  There's only 2,500 decks and you can't buy them at retail.  'Nuff said.  It is a pretty sweet deal, though, especially for those of us who pre-ordered.

This is a sweet deal. I'm going to look into this more tonight.

Shouldn't this have been posted on the Madison Dealers thread? Out of respect for the Ellusionist promotion, can we move this from a Theory11 Scarlet Players thread?

Why, yes.  Yes, we can! 

[entrails]

Thanks for moving the post guys.

If only 400 decks were to get out then that would be rare and amazingly collectable. If all  or most of the 2500 make it to the public then its not quite as special. I already have one scarlet dealer like many of us here on this site. Im amazed how tempted I am to go ahead and get another deck by spending more cash when I don't generally spend any money  at all on E products.

I did not think that more scarlet dealers would show up in the market after just a couple of weeks.

You can also add on Madison Black dealers for 5 bucks a pack if you buy the new dvd. I might try and combine the dvd, a few black dealers and the scarlet deck into 1 package .

[Don Boyer]

Thanks for moving the post guys.

If only 400 decks were to get out then that would be rare and amazingly collectable. If all  or most of the 2500 make it to the public then its not quite as special. I already have one scarlet dealer like many of us here on this site. Im amazed how tempted I am to go ahead and get another deck by spending more cash when I don't generally spend any money  at all on E products.

I did not think that more scarlet dealers would show up in the market after just a couple of weeks.

You can also add on Madison Black dealers for 5 bucks a pack if you buy the new dvd. I might try and combine the dvd, a few black dealers and the scarlet deck into 1 package .

Look at it like this: 5,000 Artifice reds were made.  3,000 were sold on the first day they were released and the rest held back for premiums.  They're STILL giving out those last 2,000 and the deck is at least two years old now.  It was out long before I started dating my second wife, and our second anniversary was earlier this month.  I wouldn't sweat the details about this deck - it's rare, some will be given out for various reasons, some will remain with Daniel Madison, and there's 2,500 total.

Here's your definitive answer as to what the deal is with red Dealers, straight off the product page for them at E - their new shopping cart system requires that all items be in the database even if they're freebies and E found it simpler to just have them post with the for-sale decks instead of manually removing them somehow:

From Daniel Madison's personal supply, Scarlet Dealers were produced in a limited print run of just 2500 decks. Held to the exact same demanding printing requirements as those used on Erdnase Green Dealers, Scarlets were printed for Daniel Madison's use only.

On initial launch of Madison Dealers, just 405 Scarlet Decks were released as gifts to a few lucky customers who purchased 12 or more of the Erdnase Green decks. Daniel has kindly said that he may release more Scarlet decks for a special promotion, however until that day, they remain in his private collection.

So 405 were released when the green Dealers went on sale.  More will occasionally dribble out here and there - but the exact number will likely never be known until the last one is given out or used up, other than to say the number will be not more than 2,500 (plus or minus USPC's normal margin for error on any print run).  If I'm not mistaken, it's +/-10%, making the precise total of decks printed between 2,750 and 2,250.  I'd say it's on the top half of that estimate, since E is stating they made 2,500 - if they made less, they'd say so, enhancing the rarity.  No matter how you slice it, they're still pretty frickin' special, regardless of how many are made available for public consumption.

(Let's not even get into how, in this computer-driven machinery age, they still can't print a precise number of decks and have to use a margin of error...)

[Card Player]

Thanks for moving the post guys.

If only 400 decks were to get out then that would be rare and amazingly collectable. If all  or most of the 2500 make it to the public then its not quite as special. I already have one scarlet dealer like many of us here on this site. Im amazed how tempted I am to go ahead and get another deck by spending more cash when I don't generally spend any money  at all on E products.

I did not think that more scarlet dealers would show up in the market after just a couple of weeks.

You can also add on Madison Black dealers for 5 bucks a pack if you buy the new dvd. I might try and combine the dvd, a few black dealers and the scarlet deck into 1 package .

I'm almost sure there is no such thing as Black Dealers. Ellusionist has at this time Black Rounders or Erdnase Green Dealers.

I wanted to wait till after the $111 or additional $51 promotion was over to post this. Every now and again there are promotions that I try to figure out the best way to utilize. What I came up with was, I pre-ordered a second Mechanic DVD at the $59.99 price point. That's 1 free Scarlet Dealer and 2 free Scarlet Rounders. Timing is everything. Most likely Mechanic will not be $59.99 for long. Was I the only one who did this? You might ask yourself, what am I going to do with a second Mechanic DVD Set? Let me break it down for you.

I almost bought the Black Club to take advantage of the second signed Scarlet Rounder. I'm glad I didn't. I'm not taking anything away from Black Club but for me the Scarlet Rounders would have been the only reason to join. The Black Club would of cost me $147.00, add another $59.99 for the Mechanic DVD Set w/ 2 Scarlet Rounders (1 signed) and we come to a total $206.99 + an estimated $8 - $12 shipping.

With this $51 Scarlet Dealers promotion, my deal consisted of two (2) Mechanic DVD SET's, two (2) Scarlet Rounders (in cellophane unsigned) & one (1) Scarlet Dealer =  $119.98 + $17 shipping for two separate orders.

While it would have been cool to get something signed by Madison, I like my rare decks factory sealed. As with most signed decks, they take the cellophane off to sign them. I'm just going to wait for something else to get Madison's signature on. Some of my favorite examples of signed playing card merchandise include, the Deluxe Smoke and Mirrors set, The Blue Crown 2012 Gift Box and of course my David Blaine Split Spades Brick. All are signed, but not on the decks. The decks remain uncompromised as manufactured by USPCC.

As for the second Mechanic DVD Set, I plan to sell it at a nice discount to someone who found $59.99 to have been not affordable. Win/Win. They get the DVD they want, I get additional discount on my purchase bringing my deal under $100.00.

This was a very sweet DEAL indeed.

[entrails]

I meant Black Rounders for 5 bucks. Not a bad deal. Thanks for pointing that out Legacy. I got the DVD and 6 decks of the black rounders to qualify for the deal.


You will easily be able to sell the Mechanic  dvd and cut deeper into the cost of the purchase.

[mirciusx]

200$?! Come on...

http://www.ellusionist.com/madison-anything-is-possible-bottles.html

[bhong]

200$?! Come on...

http://www.ellusionist.com/madison-anything-is-possible-bottles.html

Regular Bikes AISB are normally about 100$. I guess the fact that they're also signed by Madison always raises the price up quite bit. Whether it's justified is up to the buyer. D&D have the AISB bottle with a custom deck option that cost 150$ with their list of 36 decks to choose from. If you use that as a starting point, then it comes to whether you think Madison's signature is worth the extra 50$. Though I guess you could always try to contact Jamie D. Grant to get a custom one made with whatever deck you choose to see what he charges you instead.

[mirciusx]

For one bottle, I guess that will be more or close to 100-200$. But for a business, I guess will be some rebates, don't you think? 100$ the bottle, 50$ for Madison (and I don't think you can compare Madison with David. Someone here said that David charge to much for a limited poster with his signature on it and that was 50$) and 7$ for a deck. So will be close to 150$, which let say it's worth it. If it was red or blue, that will some how understandable, because it was limited. How about if someone gives more that 100$ for a bottle on ebay, why can't we take more? Come one a lot of people are upset in E because they don't offer much and for their BC customers also. A lot of young and fullish kids sustain a part of E and their business. E is good, until to a (some) point. Don't tell that an old or middle collector will be so blind.

Anyway, who cares about customers? Sad.

[bhong]

For one bottle, I guess that will be more or close to 100-200$. But for a business, I guess will be some rebates, don't you think? 100$ the bottle, 50$ for Madison (and I don't think you can compare Madison with David. Someone here said that David charge to much for a limited poster with his signature on it and that was 50$) and 7$ for a deck. So will be close to 150$, which let say it's worth it. If it was red or blue, that will some how understandable, because it was limited. How about if someone gives more that 100$ for a bottle on ebay, why can't we take more? Come one a lot of people are upset in E because they don't offer much and for their BC customers also. A lot of young and fullish kids sustain a part of E and their business. E is good, until to a (some) point. Don't tell that an old or middle collector will be so blind.

Anyway, who cares about customers? Sad.

Companies will always do what their market dictates and lets them do. I think a 50$ signed poster is expensive. I think a 200$ DM signed Black/Brown Rounders Anything is Possible Bottle is expensive, but then I don't think either items are aim at me. I'm sure signed posters cost DB next to nothing in physical cost, but then it's like that for all business. They've got to make a high return to offset the cost of a company. The old adage applies. if you don't like it, don't buy it. When a company has a ton of stuff sitting on their warehouse shelf for months at a time, they'll realize they made a mistake. Unfortunately, yes, there's a lot of less than bright people willing to cost up the cash for such things as Signed Rounders AIPB. Save your cash and your grief and just don't care.

[PurpleIce]

200$?! Come on...

I, seriously, am not surprised at all. Not one least bit. Maybe i am getting used to seeing such pricing from E.

Just on a side note, this came from the e-brochure of "E".

"Shortly after Jamie began work on these bottles, his hands became crippled due to the highly detailed, repetitive work it takes to make just one of these inspirational art pieces. Unfortunately, Jamie has not yet fully recovered from his surgery, so less than 50 of each of these bottles currently exist - and may ever exist.

We wish Jamie all the best in his recovery, but at this stage cannot tell if or when we would be able to replenish our stock should these bottles sell out. "

Although i highly believe even without this reason, they will still sell at $200/bottle anyway.

[Don Boyer]

200$?! Come on...

I, seriously, am not surprised at all. Not one least bit. Maybe i am getting used to seeing such pricing from E.

Just on a side note, this came from the e-brochure of "E".

"Shortly after Jamie began work on these bottles, his hands became crippled due to the highly detailed, repetitive work it takes to make just one of these inspirational art pieces. Unfortunately, Jamie has not yet fully recovered from his surgery, so less than 50 of each of these bottles currently exist - and may ever exist.

We wish Jamie all the best in his recovery, but at this stage cannot tell if or when we would be able to replenish our stock should these bottles sell out. "

Although i highly believe even without this reason, they will still sell at $200/bottle anyway.

Regardless, it's not like the price hike isn't justified.  These are usually short-run in the first place, but at less than 50 available, that's the shortest run of any AIP Bottle.

BTW: anyone here wish Jamie a quick recovery?  He is a forum user, y'know.

[bhong]

BTW: anyone here wish Jamie a quick recovery?  He is a forum user, y'know.

That I did not know. Best of luck with a speedy recovery!

[John B.]

I am his friend of facebook. This was a more recent post of his.

Had my last follow-up appointment with my surgeon today: and it looks like everything has gone perfectly! I'm clear to go back to saving lives and blowing minds next month! Hurrah!

[vmagic]

200$?! Come on...

I, seriously, am not surprised at all. Not one least bit. Maybe i am getting used to seeing such pricing from E.

Just on a side note, this came from the e-brochure of "E".

"Shortly after Jamie began work on these bottles, his hands became crippled due to the highly detailed, repetitive work it takes to make just one of these inspirational art pieces. Unfortunately, Jamie has not yet fully recovered from his surgery, so less than 50 of each of these bottles currently exist - and may ever exist.

We wish Jamie all the best in his recovery, but at this stage cannot tell if or when we would be able to replenish our stock should these bottles sell out. "

Although i highly believe even without this reason, they will still sell at $200/bottle anyway.

Pretty low for them to use somebodies medical condition to make them seem even more rare and make it seem like he may not be able to make any more of these. Especially since he's posted before this was sent out that he was expecting to be back at it as soon as he could. Can E get any lower?