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Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century

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Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« on: April 24, 2013, 12:39:24 AM »
 

TishToshTesh

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I'm new around here, so apologies if I'm missing something obvious.  I've poked around a bit, and I figure it's time to see if I can get a little feedback on a playing card deck design I've been working on.

Here's my latest post on it over at my blog:

Courting Tradition http://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.com/2013/04/23/courting-tradition/

And the older ones:

Suit Up http://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.com/2013/04/04/suit-up/
'Punk Poker http://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.com/2013/03/31/punk-poker/

I've decided I'm done with the art, but as always, there are things that can change.  As with so many art projects, it's hard to declare anything really and truly "done", but at some point, I'd really like to release this into the wild, if for no other reason than to get started on something else.

So yes, I'd love to hear feedback on any aspects of the design.  I've made some conscious choices that I know run against the grain, like a directional card back, full color print, and a somewhat narrow hard border, but I'm sure I'm missing out on subtleties as well.  Most especially, I'm curious as to how important the standard pip layout is and anything I can learn on making this happen via Kickstarter, especially whether or not using UPCC or Chinese or other printers is a Big Deal.

Many thanks!
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Re: Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2013, 01:49:59 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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So yes, I'd love to hear feedback on any aspects of the design.  I've made some conscious choices that I know run against the grain, like a directional card back, full color print, and a somewhat narrow hard border, but I'm sure I'm missing out on subtleties as well.  Most especially, I'm curious as to how important the standard pip layout is and anything I can learn on making this happen via Kickstarter, especially whether or not using UPCC or Chinese or other printers is a Big Deal.

Many thanks!

OK, where to start...  :))

First, you have to know that the competition in that category is pretty stiff - that category being a playing card deck with a (insert-early-Industrial-Age-concept-here)-punk theme.  It's actually becoming a bit on the tired side - there's a glut of them now, and Kickstarter's not being very kind to the active ones that remain.  Cyberpunk is seeing some revival, as is Retro 8-Bit Gaming - they're on an upward trend.  Check out the New Deck Report and Archive topic at the top of the Playing Card Plethora - I track all those trends, both on Kickstarter and from elsewhere.  If you haven't already (sh'yeah, right), look at the previous steampunk-themed decks, both from Kickstarter AND from the other design houses (Theory11 created a trio of decks called "Bicycle Steam Punk") that didn't use Kickstarter.  You can't swing a dead cat without hitting one.  You need to look at what makes your deck different, interesting and BETTER than those designs - and if it isn't, you need to rethink your idea a bit longer until it is.

Your border?  NOT narrow.  Not compared to many decks we've seen.  It's more like standard, really, if not a little on the thick side!

Full color back?  We LOVE full color backs.

One-way back?  Well, it doesn't automatically mean your deck will fail, but you will be restricting your customer base a lot by making that choice.  If there's a subtle one-way mark on a two-way back, that's one thing - magicians love them while legitimate poker players won't buy them.  But an obvious one-way back is totally different.  To give you an idea, of all the decks created by the Conjuring Arts Research Center (CARC) the least-popular design they made was the "Ask Alexander" deck - and it's the only one with an obvious one-way back design.

Standard pip layout?  If it's attractive, most of us wouldn't care less if it's not standard.  Some decks are actually MORE appealing for their non-standard pip placements, as long as it looks good and isn't strange for the sake of being strange.

Printer...  While USPC is not the be-all, end-all of playing card manufacture, they are the 800-pound gorilla in the room - a room full of chimps, by comparison.  It is indeed possible to print a great quality deck outside of USPC - the recent Legends deck would be a great example of quality printing from Taiwan, while the Fournier 605 Lee Asher Signature Series decks are great work of high quality from a Spanish manufacturer (they're wholly-owned by USPC, but they're still operated independently from the mother ship).

Having said that, for some collectors, USPC is all there is and nothing else matters.  And for a healthy percentage of those, the Bicycle brand itself is all they care about, and they have no desire to buy anything else.  Sure, they're missing out on a larger world of playing cards, but it's what they chose.  Go figure.

Using a company other than USPC or a brand other than Bicycle isn't the kiss of death.  But it does dramatically reduce your deck's popularity.  Printing with USPC would be considered critical to most, while the Bicycle brand is not as critical, merely noteworthy.  It will cost you less and require less oversight to print an "unbranded" USPC deck, that's for certain - they charge for use of the brand name, the branding has to be approved by the Brand Manager for that brand, and there are restrictions on just what you can do with the design.

I think that's enough to chew on for now...  :))  I also do consulting work for playing card designers, as you can see in my signature - give me a shout if you're interested.
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Re: Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2013, 09:41:06 AM »
 

TishToshTesh

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Many thanks for your input!  Plenty to chew on indeed.

I know this is an entry in a busy field, and not as intricate or impressive as some, but I'm not too worried about it.  I'm not running the Kickstarter for income, it's just something I'm trying to see if I can get better prices per deck for the people who have expressed interest, and while I'd like to see the Kickstarter succeed, it's not something I'm counting on to feed my family, it's an experiment and experience.  If this were something I was going to do for a job, yes, I'd find an underserved niche.  I may yet go that direction, as I have other ideas, but that's for another day.  This wasn't designed with Kickstarter or even mass production in mind, and I've definitely noted that such would tend to have different goals and appeal.  That's not to say the advice is unwarranted or unwanted, certainly, so thank you.  It's just that it might be most relevant on future deck designs if I'm really going to hit this hard and make a more serious approach to it.  ;)

Interesting on the pip layout and card back, thanks.  Both are contrary to what I've seen elsewhere, but I think input from around here is more relevant.  The back is what I've been most concerned about lately, and I think it should be a relatively trivial evening's tinkering to make it symmetrical without losing too much of what it's doing at the moment.

Looks like I have more research to do on printers as well, so many thanks for the leads!  I did get the sense that Bicycle is... maybe overrepresented on Kickstarter, but gorillas do need feeding and watering or they get cranky.

If I may ask another question, though... what about the difference between plastic cards and paper cards, and is there a plastic card printing gorilla as well?  Maybe I was reading things incorrectly, but I got the sense that UPCC doesn't do plastic.  I'm not experienced with plastic cards, but I've run into some people who prefer them over paper, so I'd like to dig more into that market.  Thanks!
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Re: Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2013, 10:32:40 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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"Get better prices per deck?"  While some costly decks do succeed, price tag has also been the downfall of a few projects, as well.  This may be a luxury hobby, but people are sensitive to price, especially as the "street-level" economy keeps dragging its feet as if through tar.  Some of the bigger (and costly) successes did so because they appealed not just to the card crowd, but to the high design crowd as well.

Bicycle is indeed EVERYWHERE, and not just on Kickstarter.  But there is a reason for that - it improves sales in most cases to have THAT brand name, above all the others USPC offers (or other printers, as well).

USPC does indeed "do plastic" - through one brand name, Kem, in the US and one independently-operated, wholly-owned subsidiary, Fournier, in Spain.  But unlike the paper card market, they're just another player - the market's adequately divided there, without a clear, stand-out leader; Kem, the go-to brand when they were an independent company, are now just another brand in a busy, thriving marketplace.  It has something to do with poker players (the biggest market for plastic decks) complaining that the quality took a hit when USPC took over the printing.  Fournier, on the other hand, does do excellent work - when USPC created the Bicycle Prestige decks, they had Fournier do the job.  The other brands are for the most part scattered throughout Europe.  Hit up a poker site, I'm sure the players there would be thrilled to talk plastic!

Bear in mind, though - working in plastic isn't cheap if you want a good job.  There's a plastic deck, actually a series of them, closing on KS within the week that never truly got off the ground relative to the size of its goal, and it's not the first plastic deck to fail KS.

Re other paper printers - there's some excellent ones in China, but their names are jealously guarded as state secrets by the companies that use them.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 10:36:19 PM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2013, 08:47:29 AM »
 

Alex Willis

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Don speaks the truth, people on Kickstarter want Bicycle!  I've tested decks from China, Taiwan, and USPCC and to me they all seem fairly equal.  But in the mind of the brand purists, they are not.  So if you want to succeed on Kickstarter, your best chances are with a Bicycle branded deck. 
Now, for your steampunk design, I have been a fan of the genre for well over 10 years and have modeled and crafted steam powered devices and instruments to accent the Victorian clothing design.  But steampunk was never meant to be clean, pristine and is not all about clockworks.  The gears should have grease, there should be gauges and dials (steam devices use gauges and dials), there should be .... steam.  There should be shiny brass bits in strange ornate patterns.  There must be goggles with gadgets.  And weapons, (I'm biased here as that is what I am known for is creating gas and steam powered weapons), but steampunk is about futuristic weaponry.  One of the best steampunk movies ever made was Disney's Atlantis.  A little cartoony for my taste but very much in the niche.  The only thing I am attracted to on your card is the semi-rusted border.  I am not at all a fan of the one way back, but I like full color. 

Now mind you, I am no expert, there are plenty of those guys here who can give you advice.  I just have an opinion based on my own tastes and experiences.  A lot of people don't like my work. 
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Re: Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2013, 03:26:20 PM »
 

TishToshTesh

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Yes, this isn't "proper" steampunk.  It never really was meant to be, though it's borrowing visual elements.  It's mostly just messing around with gear themes and some slightly 'punky appreciation for 19th century historical figures.  If I get around to making a full-bore steampunk deck, it'll definitely be a different animal.

I've updated the design somewhat, for anyone interested.  The back is wholly rotationally symmetrical, and the front uses the same frame to make some tricks easier and is more rotationally symmetrical, though not completely on some cards, the aces most notably.  I've tightened the contrast and made a "blank" card.  (I'm not sure what I'm doing with the 56th card yet... I have options, but do you have any recommendations?)  As always, there's more that can be done, but those tweaks should make it at least marginally more appropriate to a wider audience, facilitating more magic tricks and making for a nicer flourish visual.

Thanks for the input, guys!  I think I'll offer it via Bicycle but if that crashes and burns, I'll try another printer.  Those Brahma cards seem like a decent mid/upper range alternative.
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Re: Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2013, 06:49:31 PM »
 

Alex Willis

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Love that Ace of Diamonds!!
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Re: Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2013, 09:32:00 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Yes, this isn't "proper" steampunk.  It never really was meant to be, though it's borrowing visual elements.  It's mostly just messing around with gear themes and some slightly 'punky appreciation for 19th century historical figures.  If I get around to making a full-bore steampunk deck, it'll definitely be a different animal.

I've updated the design somewhat, for anyone interested.  The back is wholly rotationally symmetrical, and the front uses the same frame to make some tricks easier and is more rotationally symmetrical, though not completely on some cards, the aces most notably.  I've tightened the contrast and made a "blank" card.  (I'm not sure what I'm doing with the 56th card yet... I have options, but do you have any recommendations?)  As always, there's more that can be done, but those tweaks should make it at least marginally more appropriate to a wider audience, facilitating more magic tricks and making for a nicer flourish visual.

Thanks for the input, guys!  I think I'll offer it via Bicycle but if that crashes and burns, I'll try another printer.  Those Brahma cards seem like a decent mid/upper range alternative.

Design is shaping up well.  I might consider making a mini-frame for the indices and pushing them further into the corners for better visibility in a fan.  I'd also look at making all the borders thinner.  When you have a deck with thick borders, they look absolutely boring in a fan - flourishers like the thinnest borders you can get away with, or no border at all.  I suppose technically they aren't really borders, per se - you're printing into the bleed.  But aside from the rusted look to them, the frames are bland.  Maybe if you did a silver frame with some details in the filigree?
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Re: Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2013, 10:08:02 PM »
 

TishToshTesh

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It might be noted that these are my "working" copies, in that they do indeed go out to the bleed area.  The final cut card should be something like this.  I may well scoot the indices out a little bit, but they do start getting lost in the shadow if I get them too close.  I've tried several positions on them already, and I like to give them a little room... but maybe that is too much.

I did try several iterations of lighter frames, too, and the cards just felt... flat.  The chocolate/coffee rust border gives them more depth and solidity as well as a nice contrast in a fan.  They are also simple to keep them from being overbearing... but maybe there's room for a little embellishment.  I would love to put something like silver filigree or screws or rivets in the chocolate, but I've avoided precision-based detail out there because of potential registration errors.  If I could be sure of pixel perfect printing, I'd definitely do more out there.

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Re: Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2013, 11:31:25 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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It might be noted that these are my "working" copies, in that they do indeed go out to the bleed area.  The final cut card should be something like this.  I may well scoot the indices out a little bit, but they do start getting lost in the shadow if I get them too close.  I've tried several positions on them already, and I like to give them a little room... but maybe that is too much.

I did try several iterations of lighter frames, too, and the cards just felt... flat.  The chocolate/coffee rust border gives them more depth and solidity as well as a nice contrast in a fan.  They are also simple to keep them from being overbearing... but maybe there's room for a little embellishment.  I would love to put something like silver filigree or screws or rivets in the chocolate, but I've avoided precision-based detail out there because of potential registration errors.  If I could be sure of pixel perfect printing, I'd definitely do more out there.

The thinned-out borders help the indices.  Do something, though, to make them stand out, and make them just a bit smaller - those look big and it makes the gearwork look small.  Something as simple as a glow effect or a different, contrasting color would work.

The way to get away with putting details in the border right to the bleed is to make it a simple, repeating pattern, much like the Bee Diamond Backs.  Imagine a web filigree or something like that, something that's geometrically plain but decorative.  A great example of details placed in the bleed would be the faces of the Ornate decks.  He's got a repeating diamond pattern with large "whatchamacallums" in the corners and the centers of the long sides.  Make the detail fine enough and it could never be considered a marking system or a one-way design because it would be impossible to read.
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Re: Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2013, 02:39:25 AM »
 

TishToshTesh

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Re: Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2013, 04:36:42 PM »
 

xela

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You need more color contrast. It will look washed out in print.
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Re: Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2013, 03:34:18 PM »
 

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Re: Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2013, 03:37:47 PM »
 

TishToshTesh

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Yes, those are the "alpha" version.  I decided to offer those via TheGameCrafter.com because they are an earlier version that some people wanted, but not the version that will be available via the Kickstarter.  They don't have symmetrical backs, the color scheme isn't as unified, and I've since polished up pretty much every facet of the art.

I mentioned it in a bit more depth at my blog when they went live:

Punk Prerelease
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 03:39:13 PM by TishToshTesh »
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Re: Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2013, 05:21:10 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Yes, those are the "alpha" version.  I decided to offer those via TheGameCrafter.com because they are an earlier version that some people wanted, but not the version that will be available via the Kickstarter.  They don't have symmetrical backs, the color scheme isn't as unified, and I've since polished up pretty much every facet of the art.

I mentioned it in a bit more depth at my blog when they went live:

Punk Prerelease

Are they selling there?
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Re: Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2013, 05:38:21 PM »
 

TishToshTesh

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I've seen something like 460 "looks", 9 "nibbles", whatever those are, and a whopping 6 sales.  I've no idea how that tracks compared to others, but it's sort of underwhelming.  In the end, I don't mind a lot, since this is something of an experiment, not my living, but those aren't very sexy numbers.  *shrug*

Then again, they don't have the exposure of a KS campaign or the prestige of the Bicycle name (with attendant card quality).  I obviously didn't mention them here, either.  They *did* manage to catch the eye of one of the editors over there, and they put it on the front page for a few days, so that was cool.  At least some people are liking them, and that's always good to hear.

For what it's worth, I did have to order a deck before they would let me post it for sale.  The card quality itself is roughly on par with Pokemon TCG cards, from the comparisons I've done.  That's great for playing with, but yeah, they are just flat glossy cards, nothing fancy for tricks or the like.  TheGameCrafter is great for prototyping things like this, though not exactly a mainstream gaming outlet.
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Re: Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2013, 06:00:18 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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I've seen something like 460 "looks", 9 "nibbles", whatever those are, and a whopping 6 sales.  I've no idea how that tracks compared to others, but it's sort of underwhelming.  In the end, I don't mind a lot, since this is something of an experiment, not my living, but those aren't very sexy numbers.  *shrug*

Then again, they don't have the exposure of a KS campaign or the prestige of the Bicycle name (with attendant card quality).  I obviously didn't mention them here, either.  They *did* manage to catch the eye of one of the editors over there, and they put it on the front page for a few days, so that was cool.  At least some people are liking them, and that's always good to hear.

For what it's worth, I did have to order a deck before they would let me post it for sale.  The card quality itself is roughly on par with Pokemon TCG cards, from the comparisons I've done.  That's great for playing with, but yeah, they are just flat glossy cards, nothing fancy for tricks or the like.  TheGameCrafter is great for prototyping things like this, though not exactly a mainstream gaming outlet.

You didn't happen to sign over any rights or anything like that when you let them print this deck and offer it on their site to others, did you?  That could put the kibosh on your project...
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Re: Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2013, 06:04:13 PM »
 

TishToshTesh

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Not according to the documents that I read.  I'll double check again before doing anything else with it, of course.
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Re: Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2013, 07:39:38 PM »
 

TishToshTesh

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Re: Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2013, 11:38:05 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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We've launched these via Kickstarter.  Thanks, guys!

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tishtoshtesh/tinker-deck-steampunk-playing-cards

I see the design hasn't really evolved a great deal, just little tweaks.

This would have been a fine deck, if you'd introduced it a year or two ago.  Now, with all the competition on Kickstarter, combined with how steampunk is arguably tied with zombies for the most overused deck theme (Cthulhu would be third place), there doesn't seem to be enough to this design to really make it stand out.  People who know steampunk/gearpunk are a little bored with people slapping a few gears on a design and calling it "whatever"-punk.  And we've started seeing decks go through USPC that have very little contrast (similar in many ways to yours) where the designs come back looking like mud - when it comes to their presses, what you see on your computer screen is DEFINITELY not what you get out of the press.

If you want this to take off, you need more to the design than what you have now.  In its present state, this deck looks like just another also-ran that didn't reach goal.  Two years ago, this would have had a lot of buzz, last year it might have gotten noticed, but today - not so much.
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Re: Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2013, 12:05:27 AM »
 

TishToshTesh

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Well, we have 80+ people in the first six hours.  It's appealing to a few people at least.  Maybe that's our ceiling, and maybe we'll fizzle out, but if so, that's just how it goes.

Again, this isn't my livelihood.  It's not calculated to fill the perfect niche in the market and take the world by storm.  It's a project that was done purely because it interested me, and I wanted to offer it to others.  It is what it is, for better or worse.  Thanks for your advice earlier!

Tesh
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Re: Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2013, 12:46:58 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Well, we have 80+ people in the first six hours.  It's appealing to a few people at least.  Maybe that's our ceiling, and maybe we'll fizzle out, but if so, that's just how it goes.

Again, this isn't my livelihood.  It's not calculated to fill the perfect niche in the market and take the world by storm.  It's a project that was done purely because it interested me, and I wanted to offer it to others.  It is what it is, for better or worse.  Thanks for your advice earlier!

Tesh

Best of luck to you, then.
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Re: Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2013, 07:52:42 AM »
 

Alex Willis

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To me it's still more clockworks than steampunk.  The major component missing... steam!  The intent of steampunk is to link heavy iron, gears, guages, sometimes weaponry, which is possible to have been developed in the Victorian era and which if mechanical should be operated by.... steam! 

I don't easily recognize the faces of the court cards, I don't see any traditional steampunk elements beyond the gears.  Still, I don't hate the deck.  I just don't love it.  I pledge on lots and lots of decks, but this is still a pass for me.  Sorry. :(
Alex Willis
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Re: Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2013, 12:22:47 PM »
 

TishToshTesh

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*chuckle*
No worries.  Indeed, if this were going to be a "proper" Steampunk deck, it would be a different animal.  As it is, it seems like purists of different stripes aren't going to wind up being the target audience.  Nothing wrong with that.  It leaves another niche open for other opportunities, right?  :)

Thanks, guys!
Author of Tish Tosh Tesh, an art, gaming and photography blog.
 

Re: Gearpunk/Steampunk deck: Heroes of the 19th Century
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2013, 05:09:00 PM »
 

TishToshTesh

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We've been able to unlock the companion deck, the Rusty Tinker Deck.  Just in case anyone is interested.

Thanks!

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tishtoshtesh/tinker-deck-steampunk-playing-cards/posts/617709
Author of Tish Tosh Tesh, an art, gaming and photography blog.