Red Monarchs confirmed, October 31st release

[blastercast]

I'm ashamed of how I titled this thread, after the recent deck releases I thought it would be as bad, these though have been tastefully shown off so far!
I will be getting one of these to complete my monarch collection (obviously not the gold monarchs) but I have white, silver and normal
-Benny

[Don Boyer]

I'm ashamed of how I titled this thread, after the recent deck releases I thought it would be as bad, these though have been tastefully shown off so far!
I will be getting one of these to complete my monarch collection (obviously not the gold monarchs) but I have white, silver and normal
-Benny

You can re-title a thread, if you created it.  Just edit the title of your first post.

T11 has toned things down considerably after what happened with the original Monarch deck in terms of the hype machine.  Really, when you think about it, why do they need to hype their decks when we can do all the work for them? 

[lyle]

Toned down, in large part, because we don't have to prove anything dealing with the Monarch deck anymore. It was a BIG leap for us, and most of our team still consider it to be the best deck we have ever created. It is BY FAR our best selling deck, has received attention from BIG names in design, and has been featured in Hollywood movie(s). Of all of our decks, none have a larger or more obsessive fan base (myself included) than the Monarch deck. Since the first release, big hype has not been something that was needed, these decks are simply in demand.

Everyone remembers the hype of the original release very vividly, in large part because there was a HUGE issue on top of the hype (the now dubbed "Gold Monarchs"). When people talk about hype and theory11, it is the Monarch deck release they talk about. We certainly DID hype it before the release, but we knew we were onto something before the release. Look at our decks before the Monarch deck, and look at the decks since. The Monarch deck was a revolution of sorts for us. The hype itself hasn't ever really been a problem for people, but everyone still has a negative association with the Monarch hype because of the whole mess with the initial Monarch printing.

All that said, the Red Monarchs are incoming. They look amazing. If you are a Monarch fan, you won't be disappointed. This is also only the beginning of our fall playing card releases. I am obsessed with Monarchs, but this release is only my second favorite release slated for the rest of this year. Something HUGE and insanely cool is in the works right now, unlike anything we have ever done before. I can't say more just yet, but if you have felt that theory11 has had a quiet playing card year, you won't feel that way by the time the year is over.

// Lyle

[Card Player]

Toned down, in large part, because we don't have to prove anything dealing with the Monarch deck anymore.

I sort of figured that was the approach. I never understood the communities negativity on hype in general. As long as your producing a quality product as advertised, hype your heart's desire.  Its simple marketing and sales promotion.

@ Lyle: I've seen the question I'm about to ask on all of the social networks. I have not seen anyone answer it.

Are these limited?

[Don Boyer]

All that said, the Red Monarchs are incoming. They look amazing. If you are a Monarch fan, you won't be disappointed. This is also only the beginning of our fall playing card releases. I am obsessed with Monarchs, but this release is only my second favorite release slated for the rest of this year. Something HUGE and insanely cool is in the works right now, unlike anything we have ever done before. I can't say more just yet, but if you have felt that theory11 has had a quiet playing card year, you won't feel that way by the time the year is over.

// Lyle

I think it's hard to deny the popularity of the deck - I'm a fan of the design myself, despite all the brouhaha that occurred when the deck was first released.  The design is very elegant yet perfectly suitable for everyday use; I've been known to carry them around and they're on my short list of "go-to" decks that I like to stock extras of for impromptu magic performances.

Lyle, thanks for stopping by.  We always appreciate input from a company representative - please feel welcome to return at any time, for whatever topics interest you.

[Nurul]

Just announced on the T11 FB page, release date is 31st oct at 11am EST

[Card Player]

Just announced on the T11 FB page, release date is 31st oct at 11am EST

This was announced a few nights ago? Tuesday night on Twitter to be exact.

[bhong]

According to their Facebook page, it looks like there will be another "special edition" of the Monarchs that will launch alongside of the red Monarchs on Thursday. I'm curious as to what it is. Maybe Titanium Monarchs?

[Phegget]

Disappointed about the money grab but excited at the same time as Monarchs are absolutely gorgeous. Sigh. The big 4 should be called Theory$$, €llusionist, D$D and the blue crown/ HOPC should simply be known as Pheggetmoneytards.

[vmagic]

Disappointed about the money grab but excited at the same time as Monarchs are absolutely gorgeous. Sigh. The big 4 should be called Theory$$, €llusionist, D$D and the blue crown/ HOPC should simply be known as Pheggetmoneytards.

I totally agree!

[Don Boyer]

Disappointed about the money grab but excited at the same time as Monarchs are absolutely gorgeous. Sigh. The big 4 should be called Theory$$, €llusionist, D$D and the blue crown/ HOPC should simply be known as Pheggetmoneytards.

Let's not forget David B£aine.  And surely you could find a better name for the Blue ₵rown/HOP₵... 

(Bonus points to anyone who can identify the "₵" symbol - and it's NOT the symbol for cents, which is "¢"!)

Look, we'll see what happens in less than two days.  Another rare deck?  So what?  I'm getting a little tired of rare decks.  It's one thing when a deck becomes rare because of attrition over time - paper wasn't meant to last very long.  It's quite another when rare is limited artificially in an effort to make a product more attractive.  I'm interested, somewhat, in the blue deck, but that's about it, unless they create something that will really blow me out of the water.

Curse you, Dan and Dave, for making Halloween into a major deck release date...as if we didn't have enough of that during the holidays.  It used to be just Black Friday.  Then D&D released a Halloween deck, and a New Year's Day deck - it's nuts, I tell ya, simply nuts, and a blatant cash grab.

[Fred]

Here's what the red Monarchs look like. Photo courtesy of Kete Moon (as usual.. =p)

I am extremely disappointed. The red used is very bland. Though i might be contradicting myself in saying that I love the red on the tuck box. Even though the two colours seem pretty identical, the tuckbox is simply much more elegant as the colours blend in with the gold and makes it look premium/exquisite. I wish T$$ could have changed it up by implementing different shades of Crimson in the different parts of the back design.. or had gone with a darker, more blood-like/premium shade of red.

I guess all will be revealed soon!

[lyle]

I couldn't say anything before (we don't release details until things are pretty much set in stone), but JB just posted this publicly, meaning it is fair game. Unlimited. This will join the original Monarchs and the Silver Monarchs as unlimited decks on our site for the foreseeable future.

Limited decks are fun, however trust me - that is not where the money is AT ALL. When we released 1,100 White Centurions a while back, we paid a premium to print under the US Playing Card Company's 2000 deck minimum. Those cost a lot to print per deck because of the quantity. Then, we only sold a portion of these decks, at a NORMAL DECK price. This ensures that the profit per deck is small. Then, in the end, we gave away tons of these decks through contests and special events. We gave away huge numbers of this deck, and sold the rest at a small profit. People then run to eBay, see a deck selling for $300, and say that theory11 makes TONS of money off that kind of release, haha. Limited Edition decks aren't the bread and butter of theory11. They are simply icing on the cake, a fun way to interact with the playing card community. There are ALWAYS people who hate limited releases because they can't get lots (or any), and there are ALWAYS people who hate unlimited releases because the deck's don't inflate in value sitting unopened at home for two years like a limited deck. We can't keep both sides of the party happy with every release, so instead we try to give both sides what they want individually.

Our goal, as it has always been, is to give the magic, cardistry, and playing card communities what they are looking for. We try to be as high quality as possible. We do everything we can go make sure that our products are exceptionally well designed. In the end, we are a business. We do try to make money on our sales (else we wouldn't be around for a long time). We try to bring you products you want, and we bring them to you at as fair of a price as possible. Yes, we are in it for the money. I have student loans to pay off and a family to take care of. I probably wouldn't be working for theory11 if I didn't need to earn money. That said, we are also in it for something far greater than the money. Pick up a deck of the Red Monarchs when they release, and when it arrives pick it up, hold it in your hands, and look at the detail that was put into it. That will give you an idea of what we are really in the game for. Onward and upward.

We have LOTS more coming. This is NOT the end of the decks for the year. I just saw one of them off the press for the first time today. I am also helping with the final details of the biggest playing card project we have ever been involved with (to be released later this year). Call it a "money grab" if you want. We do indeed hope to do a lot of business this  holiday season (look up the origin of the name Black Friday). Instead, I call it a passion, an obsession, a drive. We don't care about being the best, we care about being better each and every day than we were the day before.

The other Monarch release is really cool, but the real highlight of the day will still be the Red Monarchs. The other release has a specific focus, and I don't know that you here will be that focus. Maybe you will be. It is regardless an awesome product, but I wouldn't worry too much about it until you see it on Thursday. This sounds weird, but you will understand once it is released. I'll pop back and answer any questions about it after the release if you have any.

Anyway, sorry for the long post. My personal stash of Red Monarchs showed up today, so I am off to go enjoy these more before turning in for the night. For the first time since the original Monarch deck was released, it has been seriously challenged for the position of my all time favorite deck. The warmer red color is more striking than I ever expected it to be. Unquestionably my favorite red deck of all time. I am off to consider this terrible situation I have found myself in, haha.

As always, hit me up if you have any questions. Have a great week!

// Lyle

[lyle]

I am extremely disappointed. The red used is very bland. Though i might be contradicting myself in saying that I love the red on the tuck box. Even though the two colours seem pretty identical, the tuckbox is simply much more elegant as the colours blend in with the gold and makes it look premium/exquisite. I wish T$$ could have changed it up by implementing different shades of Crimson in the different parts of the back design.. or had gone with a darker, more blood-like/premium shade of red.

Surprisingly, the shade is very distinct from the tuck case. Just like the original Monarch deck and the Silver Monarch deck, the color scheme of the Red Monarchs is not the same as the back of the tuck case. I will admit, when I first saw a photo, I had the same reaction. For a moment. The more I saw the red used on the cards, the more I loved it. It is bold, but not obnoxious. The white on red gives you the simple, classy, elegant feeling the Monarch deck is known for. You may not be a fan of the simple card style of the Monarchs, but if you like what you have seen before, you will love this.

// L

[Fred]

Lyle, i won't quote you for the sake of excessive walls of text. But that was a great read. Thanks for taking the time. I appreciate that.

With that being said, please don't try to justify limited releases as 'bonuses' that are 'something extra for the consumer'. Most companies (such as yours included) are entirely profit based and not 'for the sake of us'. Limited runs, contests, giveaways etc are all aimed for exposure and long term profit to keep in business. ALL of us understand that. Please don't pretend that you're doing us a favour as you don't make more profit with limited decks relative to unlimited decks. We are not stupid, and there is no need for you to stress this point.

I am very much looking forward to this release and will judge for myself on the deck. Once again, thank you for the input/insight and i hope you'll stick around after the release/in future discussions.

[Don Boyer]

First, Lyle, thanks for coming by yet again.

Second, my idea of the "cash grab" I mentioned wasn't clearly outlined - it had more to do with the huge number of releases from T11 and others that all come through the pipeline together and very close to each other.  It used to be the case that Black Friday was the big new-deck day, but since D&D got in the act, we now have new releases for October, Halloween, Black Friday, mid-December, New Year's Day...it's hard to keep up, especially if you love the hobby.  I love new limited decks, particularly if they're attractive to me, but I don't love the cash that needs to be spent or the other hurdles that need to be jumped in order to get them.  I still recall all the problems you guys were having with the release of the Silver Monarchs - your servers were really slammed with frenzied buyers waving money at you through their screens.

Third, Fred - it's not always the case that there's money made on limited decks.  T11 gave away a healthy chunk of their White Centurion supply, though they did sell some.  Ellusionist's first two rare decks didn't actually make a penny for them, at least as far as the cost of production versus what they "sold" for - they were all given away.  I will concede the point immediately that there's usually barriers to be crossed in order to get free decks - like when E used to require a purchase of $350 or more to get a Gold Arcane in a Lucite case.  But they could have simply sold these items if the cash was the only reason to make them.  They were customer loyalty bonuses, things meant to attract customers to spend money at their store as opposed to someone else's - and frankly, they work.

And I'm liking the red on the Monarchs.  It's pretty much the same red you used on the red pips - it's a deep red, but not "casino red" deep, and I find it pleasing to the eye and easy to read.  Glad to hear it's not a limited release.

Say, Lyle, I have a few burning questions - exactly WHICH decks from T11 are strictly limited to one short print run and which are planned to be reprinted as long as demand still exists?  Some of your decks go out of stock and never return, while others go and come back every now and then.  And then there's the decks that you aren't selling on the site, but that are appearing elsewhere, like those Erlanger-made Black Stingers and Propaganda decks - what's the story about them?

[Fred]

Third, Fred - it's not always the case that there's money made on limited decks.  T11 gave away a healthy chunk of their White Centurion supply, though they did sell some.  Ellusionist's first two rare decks didn't actually make a penny for them, at least as far as the cost of production versus what they "sold" for - they were all given away.  I will concede the point immediately that there's usually barriers to be crossed in order to get free decks - like when E used to require a purchase of $350 or more to get a Gold Arcane in a Lucite case.  But they could have simply sold these items if the cash was the only reason to make them.  They were customer loyalty bonuses, things meant to attract customers to spend money at their store as opposed to someone else's - and frankly, they work.

I very well know that unlimited decks (assuming they are attractive of course..) generate more revenue. My point was that limited decks may serve a different purpose than short term profit. Besides the business model to drive sales (e.g. Buy 1 brick get 1 free), they are also mainly for hype/exposure/obtaining customer loyalty and for greater FUTURE prospects. Everything done is always for the benefit of the company. They do that by trying to please their customers (thus generating sales) but always remember that their primary goal is for the sole purpose of generating revenue. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this. However, I do not appreciate companies trying to make it seem as if pleasing customers is their paramount priority.

I'm more excited about the additional secret Monarch release along with the red one. Hopefully it wont be a let down!

[bhong]

I think it's a fine balancing act. Like Lyle said, the company's purpose is to make money or else they won't be around for long, but equally they still do have to please their customer base. If a company alienates it's base too much then it ends up driving away those willing to give them money and they die out. Ultimately, I find the best way is to speak with your money. Don't like something, don't buy it and enough people do do that, a company will realize it (hopefully).

...

The other Monarch release is really cool, but the real highlight of the day will still be the Red Monarchs. The other release has a specific focus, and I don't know that you here will be that focus. Maybe you will be. It is regardless an awesome product, but I wouldn't worry too much about it until you see it on Thursday. This sounds weird, but you will understand once it is released. I'll pop back and answer any questions about it after the release if you have any.

...

I'm wondering if the other Monarch release is a Monarch gaff deck by Lyle's remark that it has a specific focus and maybe it's something the card collectors might be less interested in.

[lyle]

I very well know that unlimited decks (assuming they are attractive of course..) generate more revenue. My point was that limited decks may serve a different purpose than short term profit. Besides the business model to drive sales (e.g. Buy 1 brick get 1 free), they are also mainly for hype/exposure/obtaining customer loyalty and for greater FUTURE prospects. Everything done is always for the benefit of the company. They do that by trying to please their customers (thus generating sales) but always remember that their primary goal is for the sole purpose of generating revenue. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this. However, I do not appreciate companies trying to make it seem as if pleasing customers is their paramount priority.

We all try to play out idea like this as if they are black or white. The answer is always somewhere in between. Limited releases are, of course, designed to benefit the company. On the flip side of that coin, they are also designed to benefit those specific consumers who look for limited releases. This is what legitimate business is - two parties exchanging items or services of value for different items or services of value that are desired more. We give away limited edition decks in contests, this is the value we give. What do we gain? Customer loyalty, a reputation, future business. We put this sort of thing out there for our customers (and potential customers), doing all we can to benefit them, in the hopes that we will be benefited by them in the future. Any company that puts its own needs first quickly finds itself to be irrelevant, and soon after out of business. Businesses that put their customers needs and desires first find that they also gain the benefit that they need to stay in business, and this comes from the customers they benefit.

Say, Lyle, I have a few burning questions - exactly WHICH decks from T11 are strictly limited to one short print run and which are planned to be reprinted as long as demand still exists?  Some of your decks go out of stock and never return, while others go and come back every now and then.  And then there's the decks that you aren't selling on the site, but that are appearing elsewhere, like those Erlanger-made Black Stingers and Propaganda decks - what's the story about them?

Lots of decks to answer this about, but I will try to generalize. No decks are ever truly "unlimited". There will always be an end somewhere along the line. If the deck is labeled as "Limited", it will be gone when the stock is out, plain and simple. We have seen other companies do much the opposite, reprinting decks that would 'never again be avaialble', and we don't think this is right. If a limited deck ever comes back into stock, it will be a new version (new color or a design refresh).

If a deck is a part of what I (personally) refer to as our signature line, decks that have defined our company and clearly fit our evolving style, these are going to be 'unlimited'. In my mind, these decks are, in order, Guardians, Centurions, Propaganda, Sentinels, Monarchs, Rebels, and Artisans. These decks are, or have been, the lifeblood of theory11. These are all unlimited. Sometimes, when demand slows, we can't justify the massive print runs we typically use. When this happens, the deck goes out of print. This has happened with Guardians, Centurions, Propaganda, and Rebels. This is not a permanent deal. The Guardians came back after a long time gone, and the Rebel reprint is in the works after a shorter time away. Centurions and Propaganda are always being evaluated for the right time to release a V.2. Not guaranteed, but very much possible, maybe even likely.

We do have some decks that have special circumstances because they are licensed products. Stingers and the entire Titanium line are a part of this group. Not our designs, but we did indeed produce them. We have less control over these decks. That doesn't mean that we won't reprint them, they are just a little more complicated, and as such we have to be very confident that the time is right to reprint. The Titaniums are not out of stock yet. The Stingers have already come back once, and I would be very surprised if they did't come back for a V.3 eventually. There is always demand for these.

Not 100% sure on the Erlanger printed Stingers and Propaganda decks. Let me do some digging. To my knowledge the only authorized versions of these decks are our printings. The last printing of the Propaganda deck was an Erlanger printing, and is labeled as such. I just checked one of mine that came from our last printing. I don't have a Red Stinger deck myself, but I suspect that the last printing of these came from Erlanger as well.

As always, hit me up with any questions.

// Lyle

[Don Boyer]

Not 100% sure on the Erlanger printed Stingers and Propaganda decks. Let me do some digging. To my knowledge the only authorized versions of these decks are our printings. The last printing of the Propaganda deck was an Erlanger printing, and is labeled as such. I just checked one of mine that came from our last printing. I don't have a Red Stinger deck myself, but I suspect that the last printing of these came from Erlanger as well.

As always, hit me up with any questions.

// Lyle

Those Erlanger-made Propagandas we never made available on the T11 site.  Jason Arakelian over at the1eyedjack.com started selling them and offering them at a lower price - this was at the time that Erlanger decks were though (rightfully so, at the time, for a number of decks) to be by and large inferior to the old Cincinnati decks.  Fortunately, that's no longer the case.  But when he released his Erlanger Props, T11 never got them back in stock, listing them in their store as still being a sold-out deck.  It was shortly after this that people started noticing the Black Stingers were also made in at least two print runs, one from Cincinnati, one from Erlanger - the aftermarket price of Erlanger-made Stingers took a little ding as a result.

Based on what you've said, I'm thinking that it's possible that Jason's stock simply came from an old print run ("old new stock", as some collectors call it - old decks in brand-new, store-ready condition) and that these Erlanger decks were at one time available at T11.  But no one knows for certain, and people have been wondering about it for some time now.  We did hear that there was to be a v2 Prop deck, but it hasn't (yet) materialized and it's been many months since that time.  (I forget who it was I was in contact with - it could have been you! - but it was someone at T11 who told me via email while I was inquiring about the Erlanger Props.  The post is still here, somewhere - I quoted the email in it.)

[vmagic]

Releasing a limited deck is not a cash grab however when a company essentially forces customers to buy 12 decks or spend $100 to get a free limited deck, that IS a cash grab imo!

[Don Boyer]

Releasing a limited deck is not a cash grab however when a company essentially forces customers to buy 12 decks or spend $100 to get a free limited deck, that IS a cash grab imo!

To that, I cry "foul".  Yeah, it's a hassle to get that deck.  But your claims of being "essentially forced" to do anything are ridiculous.  Are they holding your family hostage at gunpoint?  Or are they simply offering a unique exclusive for bigger customers?

There's no law that states you must have every single new deck, for sale or as a premium, that comes out from the assorted deck makers out there.  There's also no law that states they can't set the terms under which you may obtain that new deck - deciding whether to sell it or make it a premium giveaway is entirely up to them.  If this makes you unhappy, you're welcome to stop purchasing products from that company and to make your feelings known to them.  That's what the Customer Service Department is for.  The deck is a GIFT - you still get the other 12 decks or the $100 of merchandise that you purchased in order to get the deck.

Special offers like these are practically the backbone of the entire retail industry!  Do you complain to the local supermarket because they're "essentially forcing" you to carry their customer loyalty card to get some of their discounts?  When a clothing store offers you a $25 discount on purchase of $125 or more, do you get pissed off?  Are you angry that you have to buy the Happy Meal or the box of cereal to get the toy inside?  Sane people don't get upset about these things - they LIKE them.  It's a company's way of saying, "Hey, thanks for buying our stuff - we'd like to give you this as a token of our appreciation."

If all of that really grinds your gears, you're more than welcome to look for that deck on eBay after it's been released.  There's usually a price spike, but that goes away in time.  Maybe it will cost more than the price of that brick or that $100 of merch you could have gotten when the deck was offered, or maybe not.  But you could always do what I do - just pass it over altogether and not get the deck if it bothers you so much.  I'm not "essentially forced" to do so much as lift a finger...

Now, if the other members don't mind, how about we all get back on topic and talk about that spiffy-looking Red Monarchs deck that's coming out tomorrow, shall we?

[vmagic]

Maybe force isn't the right word. But as a collector I like to get the limited decks but I don't want a brick of anything myself, a lot if other collectors are the same way. Those limited decks are not being picked up by average joe, only by collectors and resellers who then inflate the prices in eBay. I would simply love the option to individually buy limited decks instead of being forced to buy a brick or two just to get them! And that is what I meant by force. If I want to get them I am forced to buy a brick or two even if I don't want them and this only benefits the seller and causes resellers to inflate prices!

[bhong]

I think the Red Monarchs do look spiffy! 

To me, the red does look really nice. The new photo on their Facebook page of the tuckbox looks pretty great. It's a nice deep red.

edit: I thought I should include the photo.

[John B.]

Maybe force isn't the right word. But as a collector I like to get the limited decks but I don't want a brick of anything myself, a lot if other collectors are the same way. Those limited decks are not being picked up by average joe, only by collectors and resellers who then inflate the prices in eBay. I would simply love the option to individually buy limited decks instead of being forced to buy a brick or two just to get them! And that is what I meant by force. If I want to get them I am forced to buy a brick or two even if I don't want them and this only benefits the seller and causes resellers to inflate prices!

Would you rather them sell them on their site for $60 per deck? that way you dont get anything but the deck?