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Playing cards and Fantasy art: A good mix?

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Playing cards and Fantasy art: A good mix?
« on: August 17, 2013, 06:18:54 PM »
 

Candace B

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Hey guys! I have a question for anyone who wants to answer. What do you think of fantasy art on playing cards? And by that I mean full color, digitally painted, illustration art. The kind of thing you see for video game art. What do you think? Is art like that on playing cards a good mix?

I’ve seen several decks with this sort of art do really well, and I’ve seen many others do poorly. Why do you think that is? Is it just a matter of personal preference, or is there more to it than that? If you were going to buy a deck like that, what would you want to see as far as making the art fitting for a good deck of playing cards?

I am an artist who loves to produce art in this style, and I would love to produce that art as a deck of cards. But I also want it to be a quality deck of cards, not just a novelty item that doesn’t have much functional use. Can this sort of art make a good deck really great? I’m just not sure, and I would love to hear some opinions on the matter. :]
 

Re: Playing cards and Fantasy art: A good mix?
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2013, 01:36:47 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Hey guys! I have a question for anyone who wants to answer. What do you think of fantasy art on playing cards? And by that I mean full color, digitally painted, illustration art. The kind of thing you see for video game art. What do you think? Is art like that on playing cards a good mix?

I’ve seen several decks with this sort of art do really well, and I’ve seen many others do poorly. Why do you think that is? Is it just a matter of personal preference, or is there more to it than that? If you were going to buy a deck like that, what would you want to see as far as making the art fitting for a good deck of playing cards?

I am an artist who loves to produce art in this style, and I would love to produce that art as a deck of cards. But I also want it to be a quality deck of cards, not just a novelty item that doesn’t have much functional use. Can this sort of art make a good deck really great? I’m just not sure, and I would love to hear some opinions on the matter. :]


Hey, Candace,

"Art decks" can be very much a personal preference, just as art is.  I know people who love the four decks Anne Stokes made with USPC, both for herself and for Alchemy England 1977 - and people who hate them, and people who are in-between...

One thing I've noticed in art decks is that I tend to like consistency in the imagery.  When you have a single artist creating the entire deck, there's a consistency to the work in that it's all in the artist's style and whatever theme was chosen for the deck (if there is a theme).  Decks that are made by a collective of artists, often with no artist creating more than four cards (and most frequently as little as one) and frequently without a central theme other than "it's the art collective's deck," have more novelty value, but then the novelty wears off.  It's why I gave away my Broken Spell deck to my elder stepson a number of months ago.  (It was expensive, but I obtained it in a fundraiser for Japanese tsunami victims, so I feel it was money well spent.)

The other thing I tend to like is when the art is new and original.  If I wanted a deck filled with van Gogh paintings, I'd go to a museum gift shop.  He's a great artist, but I know for certain that he didn't have in mind making a deck of cards out of his paintings, shrinking them so small as to lose every fine detail.  The art should really be designed for the deck, with the artist working within that teeny 3.5" x 2.5" canvas.  Highly-detailed art can be fascinating, but if you take something made large and just reduce it to playing-card size, it will more likely end up looking like you're seeing it through a dirty fish tank.

Know the limitations of the medium and the printing presses.  The Bicycle Venom and Venom Strike decks are examples I often speak of when discussing this.  They had some really nice artwork for the card backs, but it was very detailed work and the color palette chosen had very little contrast throughout - the end result was a card back that looked more like a brown mustard stain.  All of the detail was rendered practically invisible.  Another pair of simpler examples would be both the original Monarchs (now known as Gold Monarchs) by Theory11 and the Misc. Goods Co. deck that was Kickstarted by Pedale Design/Tyler Deeb.  In both cases, the artist chose to make a deck with a black background and metallic gold ink for all the linework.  When you think "gold," you think bright and shiny - but gold metallic ink is more of a dull metallic yellow, dark enough in color that against a black background the image become much less distinct.  Theory11 was so dissatisfied with the outcome, they claim that they took an entire print run of 5,000 decks, stopped production on it, destroyed most of it, replaced the gold-on-black with white-on-dark-navy, saved only a single case (144 decks) of the original gold/black and released only 111 to the public.  In all of those cases, they didn't stop to fully consider how their artwork would be transformed once it made its way through the presses and into the tuck boxes.  Digital artists are often used to seeing end results that are WYSIWYG - what you see is what you get.  It doesn't work quite like that with playing cards.  Well, it can work like that, if you're willing to work within the limitations of the medium.

Sorry about that - I tend to go on and on!  But yeah, there's a place for art decks of the type you're talking about.  The appeal may be less universal, but if you hit upon the right audience and subject matter, you'll find it popular enough to make a successful Kickstarter project out of it.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 01:40:55 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Playing cards and Fantasy art: A good mix?
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2013, 01:45:48 AM »
 

Candace B

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Sorry about that - I tend to go on and on!  But yeah, there's a place for art decks of the type you're talking about.  The appeal may be less universal, but if you hit upon the right audience and subject matter, you'll find it popular enough to make a successful Kickstarter project out of it.

Don't be sorry, I appreciate your comments! Especially your comments about coloring the art properly for printing as that is something I've been concerned about for my own deck design. Thanks for bringing it to my mind again. That is something I'll need to do some more research on. :]

As far as the art on "art cards" goes I have a question I've been wondering about. I see a lot of comments around here about making art for cards two way instead of one way. From the card player/collectors perspective it seems to work better and most people like it more. (I like it better too). :] I wonder than if "art cards" would appeal to more of the card players and collectors if the artist(s) could find a way to make their art two way art and still look like quality art. You know, if they made it somehow interesting and artistic rather then just slapping a mirrored image on the bottom and drawing a line through the middle to divide it.

 ...I probably shouldn't criticize that too loudly. There are a lot of very good decks who have gone with that tactic. I just don't like it. I doesn't seem very creative to me...

But yeah, I wonder if that would make any difference for people who are maybe on the fence about art decks. If it could be done skillfully, making the art two way would make the deck more functional and still be pretty and artsy. :]
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 01:47:26 AM by Candace B »
 

Re: Playing cards and Fantasy art: A good mix?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2013, 06:17:08 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Sorry about that - I tend to go on and on!  But yeah, there's a place for art decks of the type you're talking about.  The appeal may be less universal, but if you hit upon the right audience and subject matter, you'll find it popular enough to make a successful Kickstarter project out of it.

Don't be sorry, I appreciate your comments! Especially your comments about coloring the art properly for printing as that is something I've been concerned about for my own deck design. Thanks for bringing it to my mind again. That is something I'll need to do some more research on. :]

As far as the art on "art cards" goes I have a question I've been wondering about. I see a lot of comments around here about making art for cards two way instead of one way. From the card player/collectors perspective it seems to work better and most people like it more. (I like it better too). :] I wonder than if "art cards" would appeal to more of the card players and collectors if the artist(s) could find a way to make their art two way art and still look like quality art. You know, if they made it somehow interesting and artistic rather then just slapping a mirrored image on the bottom and drawing a line through the middle to divide it.

 ...I probably shouldn't criticize that too loudly. There are a lot of very good decks who have gone with that tactic. I just don't like it. I doesn't seem very creative to me...

But yeah, I wonder if that would make any difference for people who are maybe on the fence about art decks. If it could be done skillfully, making the art two way would make the deck more functional and still be pretty and artsy. :]


Well, as I was using the term "art deck," I was referring to decks that are more like art showcases, where all of the cards, courts and spots, all have a single, one-way piece of art on them.  Pick any Anne Stokes deck as an example - she specializes in a Modern Gothic art style (the kind that used to appeal to "Hot Topic" customers before Hot Topic went mainstream).  :))  In those cases, you're utilizing the entire space of the card to show off individual works of art, so two-way face imagery isn't as important, as long as the indices are oriented correctly.

Now, there will be those who much prefer a more functional deck, by which I mean they like court cards that look the same turned up or down.  That's fine - an art deck of the type I mentioned won't appeal to that clientele, because they're more about the game (card players) or the trick (magicians) than about the art.  There's a lot of decks that cater to that market already.  But imagine this - remember the crack I just made about Hot Topic?  If they stocked Anne Stokes decks, I'm thinking they'd fly off the shelves pretty quickly.  It's just that kind of deck for just that kind of store, and there's way more Hot Topics in this country than there are magic shops or poker stores (poker stores as a standalone brick-and-mortar shop are practically non-existent - often they'll be part of a larger gaming business; for example, a company that sells pool tables and accessories might have poker tables and accessories like decks, chips, etc. as a sideline).

The biggest issue I ever hear from the community about one-way or two-way being critical is in regards to the back design rather than the front.  Some decks have an obviously one-way back design - poker players, being the superstitious lot they are, won't touch them with a ten-foot pole, as they can actually be used in a form of cheating.  (It's not a very practical form, however, unless you cold-deck a lot (start with a fresh deck, prearranged) or someone stacks the deck at the table (not a very smooth or easily-concealed move for a cheater).  Two-way backs are definitely the preferred type among most card players.  There is a sub-category, though - backs that appear to be two-way on casual inspection, but have a hidden mark somewhere on the back that actually makes them one-way.  I've used decks like this before for simple magic tricks, but again, if a poker player knows there's anything one-way about the card back, they won't touch it.  Collectors who collect for the sake of collecting, even those who never open the box, tend to lean in the direction of not wanting an obvious one-way design and tend to be split on whether they'd like a subtle one-way mark on an otherwise two-way back.

Personally, I have a bit of both, and use them for different purposes as needed.  I don't reject a design for a one-way back automatically, but it had better be a great deck back for me to be interested, or at least a fitting one for the deck.

It seemed that what you were talking about, however, was the court cards.  Two-headed courts are believed to have come into existence sometime around the 1870s.  Some early French designs were quite unusual by today's standard - quite literally a portrait (either full-body or maybe just head-and-shoulders) on each half of the card with a frame line drawn between them.  It did the job, and it does have a certain beauty to it, but it's not the preferred design, at least not today.  Companies started taking the designs from Rouen, France - the home of the current Anglo-American card patterns - and finding ways to artfully connect the heads from each half into a single "body" covering much of the card face.

(It's rather strange, really - much of 19th-century Europe, France in particular, preferred decks in the French design from Paris, while Rouen, being a port town, imported their own style of decks to England, where English printers "forged" them like crazy, to later be followed by the Americans forging off the English!  As a result, while the French design remained popular in a healthy amount of Europe where it did - and still does - compete with a few other deck designs from different nations, the Rouen deck was copied and recopied so many times, with little modifications here and there over the years, that it developed into the standard for the British Empire and all of its colonies and former colonies, giving that design a much deeper market penetration.  But this is all one big, fat tangent...)

Back to the point - yes, when talking about two-headed courts, people love the "single-body" type over the "line-split" type by far, especially in this country where the Anglo-American design standard pretty much dominates the playing card market.  They're much more difficult to create, so some beginners will try cutting corners or creating design alternatives, generally involving some kind of line drawn through the center of the card.  By and large, while some decks have made it to funding using that line division through the courts, most haven't and the ones that did make it usually had a hard time of it.  The single-body type dominates the market for a reason.  (I always thought it looked strange when I was a really, REALLY young kid, but I was kind of strange back then as well!)

If you'd like to discuss your design further, may I offer you some assistance as a consultant?  I've worked on a few projects, most prominently all of the Uusi decks except the first - and today I sort of get a chance to help with that as well, since they're launching a re-designed version of that deck on Kickstarter in about four hours!  In fact, I have some copy to proofread for them!  Better get on that...  :))
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Re: Playing cards and Fantasy art: A good mix?
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2013, 07:20:07 AM »
 

ruicorreia

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Personally I hate them.
But, looking to so many examples of some of the latest decks and projects released, they seem to have a pretty good acceptance in general.
Enthusiast collector
 

Re: Playing cards and Fantasy art: A good mix?
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2013, 08:11:30 AM »
 

Alex Willis

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Art decks are easy, that's why there are so many of them.  They're easy because the only rules that you need apply to are your own, and then you call it art.  Now, if you want an audience, preferably one that is willing to pay for your work, you need to find a unique niche.  There is a large audience of brand specific playing cards, if your Art Deck doesn't say Bicycle, they won't buy it.  You will see recurring themes in art deck due to their mainstream popularity (Zombies, Lovecraft, Novel Characters, Steampunk, Cyberpunk...and a combination thereof).  If you look at the list that Don so lovingly maintains of the decks being released through KS, you can quickly shoot down and see the big money makers; pple with fine art details (Federal 52), people with an outreach beyond playing cards (The Name of the Winds), but there are also a lot of smaller successes based on current memes and trends.  The Mustache deck is nothing to shout "Hey that's art" about, but it is a unique idea and very popular amongst the hipsters.  Also, another mistake commonly made is by an artist who is not a designer but attempts to design the work themselves, how hard can it be right?  There's an old saying about not seeing the forest for the trees, or being to close to something to see it objectively... It's the main reason that writers have their books edited before going to print.  You need someone who can objectively look at the work and make sense of it, and then can also gage the climate of the market to determine the demand. 

There are a great number of playing card designers with good design and great art, but unless you can speak to the mass market, chances of success are fairly small.  My suggestion is to find a subject that would appeal to everyone, give it excellent detail, break some rules (Badass Spades & Grenades broke them all) and get feedback from people who are your target audience.  This is a great place to do that.

As far as creatively making a two way court card...it's harder than it seems in an art deck.
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Re: Playing cards and Fantasy art: A good mix?
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2013, 11:17:47 AM »
 

WhySoSerious12

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Hey guys! I have a question for anyone who wants to answer. What do you think of fantasy art on playing cards? And by that I mean full color, digitally painted, illustration art. The kind of thing you see for video game art. What do you think? Is art like that on playing cards a good mix?

I’ve seen several decks with this sort of art do really well, and I’ve seen many others do poorly. Why do you think that is? Is it just a matter of personal preference, or is there more to it than that? If you were going to buy a deck like that, what would you want to see as far as making the art fitting for a good deck of playing cards?

I am an artist who loves to produce art in this style, and I would love to produce that art as a deck of cards. But I also want it to be a quality deck of cards, not just a novelty item that doesn’t have much functional use. Can this sort of art make a good deck really great? I’m just not sure, and I would love to hear some opinions on the matter. :]


Art decks is quite ok, depends what type of style u you wanna create. to be fair there tons of art decks out there, if u want to create art deck there that really look great maybe you need to do much more survey on it.

hope to see your new release deck soon :)
 

Re: Playing cards and Fantasy art: A good mix?
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2013, 02:49:14 PM »
 

Candace B

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My suggestion is to find a subject that would appeal to everyone, give it excellent detail, break some rules (Badass Spades & Grenades broke them all) and get feedback from people who are your target audience.  This is a great place to do that.

As far as creatively making a two way court card...it's harder than it seems in an art deck.
Detail can be killer and that is something that I had to learn the hard way with my last deck. Hopefully I won’t make the same mistake twice.

I’m not sure what you are referring to as far as “breaking rules”. I’m assuming that you are just meaning that it’s important to think outside the box and be original?

The two way court design can be very tricky, and that’s why I decided to say you have to be creative to make one work, not that you are lazy if you don’t. It’s hard to do, but I also think it’s the fun part! :D Solving a problem and making it pretty to look at is a good challenge.


The biggest issue I ever hear from the community about one-way or two-way being critical is in regards to the back design rather than the front.
This isn’t what I was thinking about but I’m glad to have learned that about the card backs. I have been wondering why only slight differences on card backs has mattered to people and now I know. Thanks again for the informative post. :] It’s kind of fun being the dummy on the card forum who doesn’t know anything. I get to learn new things with every post. XD Somebody needs to start asking art questions so I can have something intelligent to say for once. :3

As far as the consulting thing goes, thanks for the offer. I’ll keep you in mind for when I get further along. :]
 

Re: Playing cards and Fantasy art: A good mix?
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2013, 03:00:34 PM »
 

Alex Willis

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So do you have anything to show that you're working on?  Are you going to rehash your original art deck?
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Re: Playing cards and Fantasy art: A good mix?
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2013, 07:30:46 PM »
 

Candace B

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So do you have anything to show that you're working on?  Are you going to rehash your original art deck?

Sort of. I am reusing some of the ideas and over all theme I had for the last deck, but the art as a whole is going to look very different (more illustrative/full color) It will hopefully look more detailed and finished than the last one. I should have some things to show soon and I will be sure to post a new topic around it in the design forum. :]
 

Re: Playing cards and Fantasy art: A good mix?
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2013, 12:57:32 AM »
 

Collector

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It is a good mix in case of good and harmonized art.


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