Playing Cards on Kickstarter

[tornworld_jack]

I am wondering what the overall stance is on playing cards being funded on Kickstarter.  You know, to see what people think about the idea as a whole. I personally have backed a few playing card projects, as well as being part of a group currently running a project.

I know where have been threads and discussions about "art decks" and "fantasy decks" etc etc, and i know there seems to be a bit of divide between the playing card community in that regard.  However, those types of projects seem to be quite popular and find on Kickstarter, so obviously there is enough of a "fan base" (for lack of a better word)

I would be interested in your thoughts

[Maskedfreakinabox]

I personally love the idea and concept behind KS decks, it allows for some extremely creative people to get some phenomenal decks out that otherwise would live only in the imaginations of their creators because it is so expensive to make a run of cards. That having been said, it also gives a forum for some truly tacky and awful designs and themes. My overall opinion is the decks themselves are what matter, not the fact that they originate on kickstarter. I look forward to seeing the day when a full-fledged magic company on par with The Blue Crown or Theory Eleven is started out of a kickstarter project.

[tornworld_jack]

I think that is one of the beauties of Kickstarter: it is an avenue for creative types to help get their ideas off the ground.
This day and age, with technology and communication as it is, it fits right in.
Obviously there is still some issues as to holding people accountable for their projects and promises, but i think that will get itself sorted out.

I too want to see a small company rise to "super stardom" (so to speak) using crowdfunding this way, and actually make it successfully. One of the drawback, unfortunately, is that those same big companies can start a Kickstarter too to get funding. Seems a little backward in that regard.

[Maskedfreakinabox]

I think that is one of the beauties of Kickstarter: it is an avenue for creative types to help get their ideas off the ground.
This day and age, with technology and communication as it is, it fits right in.
Obviously there is still some issues as to holding people accountable for their projects and promises, but i think that will get itself sorted out.

I too want to see a small company rise to "super stardom" (so to speak) using crowdfunding this way, and actually make it successfully. One of the drawback, unfortunately, is that those same big companies can start a Kickstarter too to get funding. Seems a little backward in that regard.

Amen to that. But, as someone designing a deck myself, I'm looking to use my excess funding towards the starting of a magic firm so I can continue to release my ideas and then start expanding into other products...extra funding may also go towards my college tuition as well...

[bhong]

I think it varies by what's the point of the deck. Is it meant for usage or is it just meant to be pretty. But I think using Kickstarter is a great idea for creators to be able to keep their visions of the deck instead of working with a company that can buy for the printing cost but can totally change the whole idea of the deck.

[Rob Wright]

I look forward to seeing the day when a full-fledged magic company on par with The Blue Crown or Theory Eleven is started out of a kickstarter project.

I too want to see a small company rise to "super stardom" (so to speak) using crowdfunding this way, and actually make it successfully. One of the drawback, unfortunately, is that those same big companies can start a Kickstarter too to get funding. Seems a little backward in that regard.

I think there are already companies on KS that are getting there.

Encarded- Paul Carpenter
Tendril- $41,648(sold out)- which allowed him to self fund Aurum.  With a $1,000 goal for Deco. He would have self funded it as well, but ended funding with $29,223.
Check out the Tucks on Deco
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/encarded/bicycle-deco-custom-playing-cards-from-encarded/posts/555686
Paul's designs at first glance may seem simple, but take a few moments to look at the cards, and you will soon see otherwise.

Elite Playing Cards-
They had 5 card projects funded in the last 12 months(no misses on cards), 1 Self Funded
RITUAL-$29,223(sold out), DIVINE-$31,823, Majestic-$21,248, Ritual Premier-Self Funded, PLATINUM-$29,223, EVOLUTION-$24,728(still 17 days left)=$136,255 Total.
I received the Majestic deck a couple weeks ago. This is the first deck I have received that has a "Vellum Paper" tuck. It has gold foil embossing on the tuck. Really nice. It feels "Rich"

Jackson Robinson-
Federal 52-$149,156(14,899 decks sold on KS), Federal 52 Part 2-$188,005= $337,161 Total.
Number 2&3 top funded decks all time on KS. Jackson's projects are bringing "Art" cards to the forefront. In general people are not buying these for poker or magic, but for the art. Oh! and Jackson and Paul are currently not so secretly designing a project together. look out wallet

Uusi-
This is what you get when 2 artist decide to design cards- 6 projects planned, with a 7th back by popular demand- currently 4 funded.
Blue Blood-$19,138(sold out I believe), Bohemia-$46,078, ROYAL OPTIK-$50,872, Blueblood Redux-$19,398(still 30 days to go)=$135,486 Total.

Albino Dragon- Erik Dahlman with Shane Tyree(Artist)
4 funded card projects(also had 2 game projects funded as well)
Skip to 3:09 to watch Shane draw the Ace of Spades for NOTW- pretty sick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5g4fpB8dBE&feature=share&list=PLaI6we5Puvbss3bOJlPPkAlHo78gJCqzK
The Call of Cthulhu-$96,583(I believe highest funded deck at the time), The White Rabbit-$38,470(Alice In Wonderland Theme), Synthesis-$67,108, The Name of the Wind-$589,660(# 1 card project funded on KS all time-sorta- they sold a lot other shit with it) = $791,821 Total.
The Name of the Wind cards are based on the fantasy novel by Patrick Rothfuss. I purchased the book because of this project, and a shit load of his fans purchased the cards(11,334 backers).The second book in the series is already written, and third being done now. From my understanding, a card project is already planned for the 2ND book. 

I can imagine any one of these guys being offered a contract with USPCC to design a deck for them.
These are only a few great designers on KS. Whether its book, or Art enthusiast. These guys are bringing a whole lot of new people into card collecting. Which will also bring more business to T-11, D & D, Ellusionist, and others.

[Maskedfreakinabox]

Oh I'm very well aware of those names, but they haven't quite gotten there yet, I definitely think that Encarded will be the first to reach that status. Their cards are very attractive and luxurious, but still useful aside from a collectors item. I feel the weakness of Albino Dragon is that their cards are more a collectors-only item. Not that I criticize, but I would be taken back if a Magician used cards like those in a routine. Elite has some potential, but the Evolution deck was a little disappointing in my eyes. Mainly just because I didn't like the theme all that much. I can totally see Jackson Robinson getting hired by a major player. He could be just what T11 needs right now with his gift for custom faces. Uusi makes beautiful cards that are so gorgeous I almost don't want to handle them for risk of bending or otherwise ruining them. I'm pretty cautious when I handle Isaac's Bohemias and Blue Bloods. But I feel that he might have a hard time with getting into the mainstream magic crowd because of his free-formedness. Most magic firms are designing cards that look like standard cards as to avoid the audience being suspicious, but this is why I like kickstarter. It allows a place for beautiful cards like those that otherwise may not be marketable to be fully developed. Without them I don't think Uusi or Albino Dragon would be able to find a place for their cards save for MAYBE HOPC.

[Don Boyer]

Oh I'm very well aware of those names, but they haven't quite gotten there yet, I definitely think that Encarded will be the first to reach that status. Their cards are very attractive and luxurious, but still useful aside from a collectors item. I feel the weakness of Albino Dragon is that their cards are more a collectors-only item. Not that I criticize, but I would be taken back if a Magician used cards like those in a routine. Elite has some potential, but the Evolution deck was a little disappointing in my eyes. Mainly just because I didn't like the theme all that much. I can totally see Jackson Robinson getting hired by a major player. He could be just what T11 needs right now with his gift for custom faces. Uusi makes beautiful cards that are so gorgeous I almost don't want to handle them for risk of bending or otherwise ruining them. I'm pretty cautious when I handle Isaac's Bohemias and Blue Bloods. But I feel that he might have a hard time with getting into the mainstream magic crowd because of his free-formedness. Most magic firms are designing cards that look like standard cards as to avoid the audience being suspicious, but this is why I like kickstarter. It allows a place for beautiful cards like those that otherwise may not be marketable to be fully developed. Without them I don't think Uusi or Albino Dragon would be able to find a place for their cards save for MAYBE HOPC.

Uusi isn't a "he", it's a "they".  Peter Dunham and Linnea Gits.  And they are ALREADY THERE.  Playing cards are just a portion of their design work, and design is their full-time jobs.

Albino Dragon is ALREADY THERE.  Considering the production costs of their products, they're making just about enough cash to quit their day jobs.  They gave Rothfuss a partnership in the company!  Dude, that's serious coin.

Regarding Encarded and Elite, well, I don't think they're doing cards exclusively for a little while yet, but they are making a decent supplemental income on them.

And make no mistake - just because a magician wouldn't use a deck in his routines, doesn't mean it's not going to sell.  The biggest-selling decks to date have all had appeal OUTSIDE of the playing-card community of collectors, cardists and magicians.  I'd bet the majority of card people didn't give Name of the Wind a second look when they first saw it, only paying attention when it started attracting so many investments.

[Maskedfreakinabox]

I have seen a lot of the cool stuff on Uusi's website. I really like their knife holder in particular. But they are first and foremost artists (and damn good ones at that), cards are only a venture for them and they are the only magic related product that they offer to my knowledge. I would argue against Albino Dragon, being that they are not a card design firm so much as an indie board game conglomerate. I thought circle city had a lot of potential, but there are some sore feelings about the way they handled the logistics of a lot of their quicksilver orders and that may be insurmountable reputation wise. I also found the teaser images of the Komodo deck to be sub-par. Elite I can see, but I would like to see them step it up a little bit. This last deck I found to be a little off-putting in the context of their repertoire. It is for that reason that Paul and company have the most potential in my mind. They do all cards and nothing else. I would like to see them start to sell routines and other magic related products though. I know that some notable people like Pred From Asgaard have taken a liking to their work (understandably) so selling cardistry and magic tricks is a logical next step. Again, this is why I feel that if you want to talk zero to hero, Encarded has the most going for them. Just my two cents though.

Oh, I forgot to bring Jackson Robinson in on this one. Again, I think T11 needs him right now. Their last few decks have needed his design input on their should-be custom faces. I see his artistic style melding best with the T11 repertoire. If he went off and did his own thing, I would like to see him market himself the way Alex Chin or D&D have. I could see him having success there as well. But to me, this is why KS is such a beautiful thing. It means that we could be on the verge of the golden age of playing cards, a renaissance of sorts where people can make a living for themselves as a small player who has honed their craft, and KS even becoming a fertile recruiting ground for the larger company's design teams. It makes me excited to see what the next decade or so will put on the table.

[Rob Wright]

I have seen a lot of the cool stuff on Uusi's website. I really like their knife holder in particular. But they are first and foremost artists (and damn good ones at that), cards are only a venture for them and they are the only magic related product that they offer to my knowledge. I would argue against Albino Dragon, being that they are not a card design firm so much as an indie board game conglomerate. I thought circle city had a lot of potential, but there are some sore feelings about the way they handled the logistics of a lot of their quicksilver orders and that may be insurmountable reputation wise. I also found the teaser images of the Komodo deck to be sub-par. Elite I can see, but I would like to see them step it up a little bit. This last deck I found to be a little off-putting in the context of their repertoire. It is for that reason that Paul and company have the most potential in my mind. They do all cards and nothing else. I would like to see them start to sell routines and other magic related products though. I know that some notable people like Pred From Asgaard have taken a liking to their work (understandably) so selling cardistry and magic tricks is a logical next step. Again, this is why I feel that if you want to talk zero to hero, Encarded has the most going for them. Just my two cents though.

I know you are all about the magic side of it. My post was just based on a company making it big through KS. Becoming self sufficient.

[Maskedfreakinabox]

I have seen a lot of the cool stuff on Uusi's website. I really like their knife holder in particular. But they are first and foremost artists (and damn good ones at that), cards are only a venture for them and they are the only magic related product that they offer to my knowledge. I would argue against Albino Dragon, being that they are not a card design firm so much as an indie board game conglomerate. I thought circle city had a lot of potential, but there are some sore feelings about the way they handled the logistics of a lot of their quicksilver orders and that may be insurmountable reputation wise. I also found the teaser images of the Komodo deck to be sub-par. Elite I can see, but I would like to see them step it up a little bit. This last deck I found to be a little off-putting in the context of their repertoire. It is for that reason that Paul and company have the most potential in my mind. They do all cards and nothing else. I would like to see them start to sell routines and other magic related products though. I know that some notable people like Pred From Asgaard have taken a liking to their work (understandably) so selling cardistry and magic tricks is a logical next step. Again, this is why I feel that if you want to talk zero to hero, Encarded has the most going for them. Just my two cents though.

I know you are all about the magic side of it. My post was just based on a company making it big through KS. Becoming self sufficient.

Fair enough. If that is the case than Uusi and Albino dragon certainly are there. To me it just seems that all of the major players in the cardistry world also dab their hands in the magic world which is why the two have become so intertwined. To me its not even so much the magic as it is the idea of making a living off of playing cards alone because of kiskstarter. In that respect I would say Albino Dragon is the closest, but again they are a conglomerate to gauging their success the way we gauge the success of others gets a little sticky when trying to remain empirical.

[Don Boyer]

I have seen a lot of the cool stuff on Uusi's website. I really like their knife holder in particular. But they are first and foremost artists (and damn good ones at that), cards are only a venture for them and they are the only magic related product that they offer to my knowledge. I would argue against Albino Dragon, being that they are not a card design firm so much as an indie board game conglomerate. I thought circle city had a lot of potential, but there are some sore feelings about the way they handled the logistics of a lot of their quicksilver orders and that may be insurmountable reputation wise. I also found the teaser images of the Komodo deck to be sub-par. Elite I can see, but I would like to see them step it up a little bit. This last deck I found to be a little off-putting in the context of their repertoire. It is for that reason that Paul and company have the most potential in my mind. They do all cards and nothing else. I would like to see them start to sell routines and other magic related products though. I know that some notable people like Pred From Asgaard have taken a liking to their work (understandably) so selling cardistry and magic tricks is a logical next step. Again, this is why I feel that if you want to talk zero to hero, Encarded has the most going for them. Just my two cents though.

I know you are all about the magic side of it. My post was just based on a company making it big through KS. Becoming self sufficient.

Fair enough. If that is the case than Uusi and Albino dragon certainly are there. To me it just seems that all of the major players in the cardistry world also dab their hands in the magic world which is why the two have become so intertwined. To me its not even so much the magic as it is the idea of making a living off of playing cards alone because of kiskstarter. In that respect I would say Albino Dragon is the closest, but again they are a conglomerate to gauging their success the way we gauge the success of others gets a little sticky when trying to remain empirical.

Not really, since most if not all Albino Dragon products got their start on KS...

Oh, I forgot to bring Jackson Robinson in on this one. Again, I think T11 needs him right now. Their last few decks have needed his design input on their should-be custom faces. I see his artistic style melding best with the T11 repertoire. If he went off and did his own thing, I would like to see him market himself the way Alex Chin or D&D have. I could see him having success there as well. But to me, this is why KS is such a beautiful thing. It means that we could be on the verge of the golden age of playing cards, a renaissance of sorts where people can make a living for themselves as a small player who has honed their craft, and KS even becoming a fertile recruiting ground for the larger company's design teams. It makes me excited to see what the next decade or so will put on the table.

Ah, but for deck designs that originated in-house, T11 RARELY does custom faces.  It's been pretty much the Sentinels and that's it - the rest are minimally custom at best, usually not much more than a color palette change or a washing out of the colors (I loved the DeckONE: Industrial Edition).

They keep the faces simple, as far as I can tell, because they like to focus on decks that magicians will be most likely to use in a routine - they are, after all, a magic shop, much like Ellusionist's focus has been on the majority of its decks.  This has nothing to do with people thinking that a strange design they've never seen before must be a rigged deck - I've yet to hear that argument about anything other than Bicycle decks.  It has more to do with two factors - there's the familiarity factor (spectators will recognize and identify with more-traditional faces, even if the colors are different and the back is unique) and the attention-drain factor (whip out a custom deck that's "really cool" with a highly unique design and many people will pay more attention to the deck than the magician or the tricks - they'll want to see it, touch it, etc., to the point that it would interrupt the routine).

[Maskedfreakinabox]

I was just on Albino Dragon's website and it looks like they're starting to wean themselves off of kickstarter, but maybe its just me. As for T11 i think that the lack of custom faces has been the gbiggest complaint. I agree about the familiarity factor 100%, but that's why I feel that Jackson Robinson is such a godsend for them. If I took a Federal 52 deck and did some routines with it, people would love the look of the cards, but would not get so caught up in the art that they decide to interrupt my routine. Call of Cthulu on the other hand, while and absolutely stunning piece of art worth nothing but my highest compliments, is in fact so stunning and out of the ordinary that people would just gawk over it. I know I would. I still do hahaha.

[Rob Wright]

I was just on Albino Dragon's website and it looks like they're starting to wean themselves off of kickstarter, but maybe its just me. As for T11 i think that the lack of custom faces has been the gbiggest complaint. I agree about the familiarity factor 100%, but that's why I feel that Jackson Robinson is such a godsend for them. If I took a Federal 52 deck and did some routines with it, people would love the look of the cards, but would not get so caught up in the art that they decide to interrupt my routine. Call of Cthulu on the other hand, while and absolutely stunning piece of art worth nothing but my highest compliments, is in fact so stunning and out of the ordinary that people would just gawk over it. I know I would. I still do hahaha.

The problem is, I don't think T11 would be willing to pay Jackson $50k to design a deck of cards.

[Maskedfreakinabox]

I was just on Albino Dragon's website and it looks like they're starting to wean themselves off of kickstarter, but maybe its just me. As for T11 i think that the lack of custom faces has been the gbiggest complaint. I agree about the familiarity factor 100%, but that's why I feel that Jackson Robinson is such a godsend for them. If I took a Federal 52 deck and did some routines with it, people would love the look of the cards, but would not get so caught up in the art that they decide to interrupt my routine. Call of Cthulu on the other hand, while and absolutely stunning piece of art worth nothing but my highest compliments, is in fact so stunning and out of the ordinary that people would just gawk over it. I know I would. I still do hahaha.

The problem is, I don't think T11 would be willing to pay Jackson $50k to design a deck of cards.

If only. That, however would make for a very interesting Lol-a-query-um. "Playing Card Fantasy Draft".

[Paul Carpenter]

I just want to pipe in and say that is a very interesting experience to read about myself and my potential.   As "just a guy that designs a few cards" here and there, it's interesting to see thoughtful reaction to my work and I'm thankful that people have thought highly of my efforts so far. I truly cannot say where all this will lead, but the thought of carefully crafting nice cards for a living is certainly appealing. In the meantime I will take my time, work on things until I am satisfied and hopefully folks will appreciate the effort.

Carry on...

[Don Boyer]

The problem is, I don't think T11 would be willing to pay Jackson $50k to design a deck of cards.

Considering most designers get a fraction of that for a commission job, I don't think anyone could afford THAT - but I don't think Jackson would even ask that, either.

I just want to pipe in and say that is a very interesting experience to read about myself and my potential.   As "just a guy that designs a few cards" here and there, it's interesting to see thoughtful reaction to my work and I'm thankful that people have thought highly of my efforts so far. I truly cannot say where all this will lead, but the thought of carefully crafting nice cards for a living is certainly appealing. In the meantime I will take my time, work on things until I am satisfied and hopefully folks will appreciate the effort.

Carry on...

People do appreciate your efforts - you're one of the top designers on KS right now.  It would be pretty nice to be able to do it for a living, yes?    But I have my doubts that anyone is doing just card design work for a living.

[Rob Wright]

The problem is, I don't think T11 would be willing to pay Jackson $50k to design a deck of cards.

Considering most designers get a fraction of that for a commission job, I don't think anyone could afford THAT - but I don't think Jackson would even ask that, either.

I don't know if Jackson made 50k on either of the Fed 52 projects, but I imagine he made more than any company would be willing to pay for a design. Having said that. It's not always about the money. Just the chance to design for a large card company might be enticing enough.

[JacksonRobinson]

This topic looks interesting.

Here are some very interesting things I've learned about the Big Players and Kickstarter, in no particular order.

- I've chatted with a few of the "Big Players" D&D, T11, Ellusionist about designing cards. The possibility is definitely there but because of the risk I took to design playing cards full time, the timing isn't quite right for me to make that commitment yet, and honestly the conversations I have had have been great and very encouraging. For me it's all about the timing. No I wouldn't ask $50K to design a deck, doesn't really make sense for both parties, because in the end I would want it to be a win win for both of us so they would come back for more.

- The thing that separates me (or what I have envisioned for my playing card company) and big players like T11, D&D, Ellusionist, Is simply volume, price point, and profits. When I set out to do the Federal 52 I wanted to create collector cards. I'm a one man show so my monthly nut is much lower than the big guys, so I'm not forced to go for the big volume. Thats why I haven't wholesaled any of my decks to anyone. Sure I may get more exposure but I won't be able to control the price like I do now. I'm not in this to become another T11 or D&D, I want to play in a different ballgame than they do. It helps me stay honest with my work, because it success relies so heavily on the execution not some huge marketing scheme or huge distribution network.

-Sure I raised a pile of cash from the Fed series but I have also spent just as big of piles paying for them. Remember I'm the crazy rookie who decided to produce 10 decks within about a 3 month period. I probably will end up printing close to 16,000 decks for the Fed 52 Part II, and when you have every bell and whistle on the them the price tag really adds up quick.

-The hardest lesson I have learned up until this point is shipping costs. Yes i know this is a touchy subject with most people and the moment you make someone pay INT shipping costs they think your trying to steal from them. No I don't have a fulfillment company right now. (I will for part II thought yuk) The time alone I have spent away from the drawing board and packing packages has been huge. I put food on my table when I'm drawing pictures not packing packages. But fulfillment is JUST AS IMPORTANT as the cards themselves, cuz if they don't get to the costumer what good are the cards anyways.

-Shipping Cost. Shipping Costs will make you go broke. It has been one toughest lessons I have learned up to this point but most people dogged me for high shipping prices when I now realized that I charged way to low for shipping. I don't mean to start a huge convo about shipping costs cuz honestly the only costs that matter to me are the ones that my scale and postage meter tell me.

-I shipped 1 deck to Australia yesterday and the shipping was $12. When you do that about 1000 times those single decks pretty much bite your foot off. If you are a aspiring kickstarter creator, due your homework, go out and buy a bunch of decks, postage scale, and do some fake shipments to get an idea of how much its going to cost you. I probably will end up spending somewhere around $24,000 just on shipping for Fed 52 Part I. Don't even ask me how much the cards themselves cost. No I'm not trying to rob people or charge them high shipping prices, if anything I'm giving away the shipping and biting the bullet my self.

- Kickstarter is a great thing, hands down! I wouldn't be where I am today without it. Will it always be a great thing? I don't know. I'm not trying to pull myself off of it yet, because until it breaks I won't try to fix it. At the same time I'm trying not to put all my eggs in one basket either. I'm already working on my first Kings Wild Signature deck that I will only sell on my website and note kickstarter it. I'm gonna pay for that one out of my pocket. Will I make as big of a splash as I would on kickstarter, heck no, but I have to start somewhere.

-A few words about Paul Carpenter. It has been a pleasure to get to know Paul over the past few months, my days have been starting with a few wise cracks over the interwebs about a current design im working on or the price of bubble wrap and uline polypags. The more people I get to know in this little world the better, the more things I will learn. Just working with Paul who has a very different style than my own has been very inspiring and for a lack of a better word educational. I just chatted with Alex Chin a few days ago about sitting down for coffee while at the 52+ Joker convention this year. Every one I have met and chatted with has been nothing but encouraging and helpful.

[Rob Wright]

-The hardest lesson I have learned up until this point is shipping costs. Yes i know this is a touchy subject with most people and the moment you make someone pay INT shipping costs they think your trying to steal from them. No I don't have a fulfillment company right now. (I will for part II thought yuk) The time alone I have spent away from the drawing board and packing packages has been huge. I put food on my table when I'm drawing pictures not packing packages. But fulfillment is JUST AS IMPORTANT as the cards themselves, cuz if they don't get to the costumer what good are the cards anyways.

-Shipping Cost. Shipping Costs will make you go broke. It has been one toughest lessons I have learned up to this point but most people dogged me for high shipping prices when I now realized that I charged way to low for shipping. I don't mean to start a huge convo about shipping costs cuz honestly the only costs that matter to me are the ones that my scale and postage meter tell me.

-I shipped 1 deck to Australia yesterday and the shipping was $12. When you do that about 1000 times those single decks pretty much bite your foot off. If you are a aspiring kickstarter creator, due your homework, go out and buy a bunch of decks, postage scale, and do some fake shipments to get an idea of how much its going to cost you. I probably will end up spending somewhere around $24,000 just on shipping for Fed 52 Part I. Don't even ask me how much the cards themselves cost. No I'm not trying to rob people or charge them high shipping prices, if anything I'm giving away the shipping and biting the bullet my self.

Shipping is probably the most underestimated part of any KS project. I truly believe that is why we are seeing so many projects fail on the backend.

So what is the solution. You can't charge someone to $12 to ship a deck of cards overseas. It would just turn off too many people. You have to think like insurance companies do. While you may be able to produce and ship cards domestically for $11-$12. You add a $1-$2 to all decks to offset international shipping. It's kind of like the power company. They charge everybody just a little bit more, so the can run power to houses 10 miles from nowhere. You lose money on the one, but make a profit in the end. Hopefully everybody is happy.

[Don Boyer]

I just chatted with Alex Chin a few days ago about sitting down for coffee while at the 52+ Joker convention this year. Every one I have met and chatted with has been nothing but encouraging and helpful.

I'm kicking myself in the ass for not making plans to go this year.  Hell, I did the same thing last year when they went to the USPC plant in Erlanger!

Shipping is probably the most underestimated part of any KS project. I truly believe that is why we are seeing so many projects fail on the backend.

So what is the solution. You can't charge someone to $12 to ship a deck of cards overseas. It would just turn off too many people. You have to think like insurance companies do. While you may be able to produce and ship cards domestically for $11-$12. You add a $1-$2 to all decks to offset international shipping. It's kind of like the power company. They charge everybody just a little bit more, so the can run power to houses 10 miles from nowhere. You lose money on the one, but make a profit in the end. Hopefully everybody is happy.

There's another, practical solution.  If you're going to ship overseas, make it more economical - enforce a two-deck or three-deck minimum for international orders.  Even domestically, the small orders are the ones that really kick a project creator in the ass financially.  This might be unpopular - but imagine how popular you'll be when you have extras of that rare deck to sell when no one else can get their hands on it, or when you chip in with your buddies and save...

[JacksonRobinson]

-The hardest lesson I have learned up until this point is shipping costs. Yes i know this is a touchy subject with most people and the moment you make someone pay INT shipping costs they think your trying to steal from them. No I don't have a fulfillment company right now. (I will for part II thought yuk) The time alone I have spent away from the drawing board and packing packages has been huge. I put food on my table when I'm drawing pictures not packing packages. But fulfillment is JUST AS IMPORTANT as the cards themselves, cuz if they don't get to the costumer what good are the cards anyways.

-Shipping Cost. Shipping Costs will make you go broke. It has been one toughest lessons I have learned up to this point but most people dogged me for high shipping prices when I now realized that I charged way to low for shipping. I don't mean to start a huge convo about shipping costs cuz honestly the only costs that matter to me are the ones that my scale and postage meter tell me.

-I shipped 1 deck to Australia yesterday and the shipping was $12. When you do that about 1000 times those single decks pretty much bite your foot off. If you are a aspiring kickstarter creator, due your homework, go out and buy a bunch of decks, postage scale, and do some fake shipments to get an idea of how much its going to cost you. I probably will end up spending somewhere around $24,000 just on shipping for Fed 52 Part I. Don't even ask me how much the cards themselves cost. No I'm not trying to rob people or charge them high shipping prices, if anything I'm giving away the shipping and biting the bullet my self.

Shipping is probably the most underestimated part of any KS project. I truly believe that is why we are seeing so many projects fail on the backend.

So what is the solution. You can't charge someone to $12 to ship a deck of cards overseas. It would just turn off too many people. You have to think like insurance companies do. While you may be able to produce and ship cards domestically for $11-$12. You add a $1-$2 to all decks to offset international shipping. It's kind of like the power company. They charge everybody just a little bit more, so the can run power to houses 10 miles from nowhere. You lose money on the one, but make a profit in the end. Hopefully everybody is happy.

Your idea seems good on the surface, but in reality when you charge a little bit more for your decks it just makes everybody unhappy. When %35 of your backers are international its not as easy as just offsetting the one or two. I honestly will probably just start charging "reality" shipping rates and if people think its too high they have the total choice not to back my project. I don't have the volume of an amazon.com where I ship so many packages that I get bulk discount postage.

In my opinion I would rather see more kickstarters succeed but not raise as much because some people will be put off by the shipping prices. Then kickstarters fail because they are afraid of a backer getting mad and not backing them because there prices are to high. When a kickstarter fails everybody looses not just the backer. As long as customers believe that creators can somehow magically wave the postage wand and make prices go down the prices are really not high its just everybody is used to buying from amazon or T11. Shipping sucks for all people involved. In the end someone always gets hurt, either the costumer paying high rates or the creator for going broke. Thats why I like capitalism so much, if someone doesn't like the prices they don't have to back it. At least thats the stance I probably will start taking on future projects. It's not that I'm sticking my nose at people, its just postage is expensive. And to add to that USPS postage goes up in a few weeks.  My wife and I were talking about today at the dinner table, she said "Jackson, your too nice!, would you rather feed your too daughters or make sure that one guy in Siberia thinks good of you because you are taking it in the teeth for shipping."

It's a tough sitch no doubt.

[JacksonRobinson]

I just chatted with Alex Chin a few days ago about sitting down for coffee while at the 52+ Joker convention this year. Every one I have met and chatted with has been nothing but encouraging and helpful.

I'm kicking myself in the ass for not making plans to go this year.  Hell, I did the same thing last year when they went to the USPC plant in Erlanger!

Shipping is probably the most underestimated part of any KS project. I truly believe that is why we are seeing so many projects fail on the backend.

So what is the solution. You can't charge someone to $12 to ship a deck of cards overseas. It would just turn off too many people. You have to think like insurance companies do. While you may be able to produce and ship cards domestically for $11-$12. You add a $1-$2 to all decks to offset international shipping. It's kind of like the power company. They charge everybody just a little bit more, so the can run power to houses 10 miles from nowhere. You lose money on the one, but make a profit in the end. Hopefully everybody is happy.

There's another, practical solution.  If you're going to ship overseas, make it more economical - enforce a two-deck or three-deck minimum for international orders.  Even domestically, the small orders are the ones that really kick a project creator in the ass financially.  This might be unpopular - but imagine how popular you'll be when you have extras of that rare deck to sell when no one else can get their hands on it, or when you chip in with your buddies and save...

Don,

The multiple deck minimum is a great idea, the larger orders are ok cuz the larger price tags takes care of the shipping. I actually was talking with a fulfilment center about that very concept today, they said this is how they make shipping small orders cost effective. Great idea, im glad you reinforced it. I've found that I end up loosing money on the one and two deck orders over sees. I also don't hide the shipping cost on the postage so I visually let people know that I'm not kidding when I say postage is high. Its not that im trying to rob them, like everybody starts preaching its just the cost of doing business, and I would rather be in business than out.

[Rob Wright]

There's another, practical solution.  If you're going to ship overseas, make it more economical - enforce a two-deck or three-deck minimum for international orders.  Even domestically, the small orders are the ones that really kick a project creator in the ass financially.  This might be unpopular - but imagine how popular you'll be when you have extras of that rare deck to sell when no one else can get their hands on it, or when you chip in with your buddies and save...

That is a great idea. I think on Jackson's project he was charging $12-$13 to ship 2 decks international. Add in $2 or so already accounted for, to ship US. I imagine that would be pretty close to cost.

[Alex Willis]

As this has become a shipping conversation I actually have two cents here.  I have been criticized for not including international shipping amounts in my projects, and why???  Because I've been shipping internationally for over 10 years and I know you get screwed if you don't do it right.  International buyers are given an estimate chart so they know approximately what it'll cost to ship a deck (or many) to them.  When it's time to ship, I weigh and calculate the actual cost and send that to the buyer with the option for Priority or Standard.  They then pay me via paypal or amazon.  I am not out of pocket for international shipping! 
Now let's talk about fairness.  Why don't I discount their shipping by $2 which is what it costs me to ship US customers and is included in the deck cost?  Because of the additional headache of doing freaking customs forms and understanding what can and cannot be shipped to certain parts of our world (which includes games and playing cards).