Fair cost/designer pricing

[S. Carey]

This might be a topic already but I am on my mobile phone and searching was being a pain.

So this is an open ended question that takes a lot of things into consideration but what is the going rate for a complete custom playing card deck design? As a non designer I constantly see projects go up on KS that only cover production costs (if that). If we put quality at Jackson's or encarded's level of work, what is a fair cost for that? Obviously it needs to cover their time and work but it also needs to fit within card economics or else i could see decks being really expensive. Like would a $5k design or a $10k design make sense for cards. The design is there but is it fair for the price of the deck once you take production costs into account?

Bc i run tuckcase and speak with authority on there, I was recently contacted by a person looking for advice on this and I honestly had no advice to give. I told him to come here and ask or go directly to a designer but I havent seen a post about it since I was asked this and it got me curious so I'm now asking.

Let the opinions roll bc I'd love to be enlightened on this matter.

[Don Boyer]

This might be a topic already but I am on my mobile phone and searching was being a pain.

So this is an open ended question that takes a lot of things into consideration but what is the going rate for a complete custom playing card deck design? As a non designer I constantly see projects go up on KS that only cover production costs (if that). If we put quality at Jackson's or encarded's level of work, what is a fair cost for that? Obviously it needs to cover their time and work but it also needs to fit within card economics or else i could see decks being really expensive. Like would a $5k design or a $10k design make sense for cards. The design is there but is it fair for the price of the deck once you take production costs into account?

Bc i run tuckcase and speak with authority on there, I was recently contacted by a person looking for advice on this and I honestly had no advice to give. I told him to come here and ask or go directly to a designer but I havent seen a post about it since I was asked this and it got me curious so I'm now asking.

Let the opinions roll bc I'd love to be enlightened on this matter.

I don't know if you'll find a lot of designers willing to talk about this kind of thing.  It's basically "what do you charge for your work", and some like to keep the actual numbers a secret because some clients may pay one price, while others may pay something else.

$5K for a design?  Unlikely.  I can say this: I know of "a deck" - can't say which deck or company - where the artist was paid $1K for his work on a semi-custom deck (as opposed to a full custom job, down to the pips).  I couldn't even say if this is industry standard for designing a deck, or even if such a standard exists.  It was not a limited-run deck and is still in print today - but it was a simple, one-time payment, hired-gun style.  No percentage of sales or anything like that - one and done.  I'm sure there would be variables such as demand for the artist's services, level of complexity of the job, the humidity level and dew point that morning in Bumfuk, Nowhere, whether the artist thinks your breath stinks, etc.

[Rob Wright]

I hired a guy to design a logo for me a few years back. I think he was charging $50 an hour. I think it ended up being around $150. I also had him design business cards for me as well. The kicker was if I wanted the vector files. It was going to cost another $2-300.

I guess the questions would be
Do you want someone to spend 10 hours or 60 hours designing?
Who's going to own the full rights to the art?
How hungry is the artist?
I think a good option would be a partnership of sorts. Maybe a small fee up front, and give the artist part of the project. The artist could end up making a lot more in the end, but the upfront cost are mitigated.

[JacksonRobinson]

I'll bite...

NOTICE: These are only the opinions I have formed over a decade of working as a professional illustrator and designer. Each to his own...

So when it comes down to pricing there are practically a million factors that play into. Most new artist / designers start out charging by the hour. They do this because they really don't have a track record of work to use as collateral for a compensation. For probably the first 5 years of my illustration career I charged by the hour. The pitfall of hourly rates is, the moment you put an hourly price tag on you worth/work you automatically put your self at odds with the client. Also you set your self off into a never ending haggle with your time and clients. After years of work an artist begins to build up a portfolio of work that not only has a price tag attached to it but also has a price tag that it may or may not earn the client. As long as an artist charges by the hour the client only looks at "who he can find for cheaper to do the same job" when he should be looking at "WOW look how much $$ this artists work is going to generate for my company"

Most new artist charge around $50 - $75 / hr. Where a seasoned artist may charge by the job rather than the hour. But if you did the math the seasoned artist is making around $200 - $300 / hr. Your probably saying $300 Ya right a lawyer doesn't even make that. When the truth is artist make that all the time and everyday. Does that mean that rookie joe blow from joeblowville is going to make that absolute not.

Towards the end of my illustration career the studios that I worked for were charging around $3-$5K for single illustrations that I would do. An in unique cases even more. I illustrated the Santa Clause that went on the Coca-Cola can, and my studio charged $375,000 for the ONE illustration. I worked on it for about 3 months. That's when I realized that I should be working for myself and not someone else.

Above said Santa Illustration
http://www.onelunglewis.com/coke2.html

Lets talk about designing playing cards specifically.

I had a big named brewing company contact me this was the conversation:

Brewing Company: Hello, We saw your Federal 52 deck and want you to design a deck of cards for us. We have seen the success of JAQK cellers deck and want to do something similar.

Me: Sounds great, what kind of deck do you want? Just a back design with standard faces?

BC: No. No. We want something to the same level as the Federal 52. What would that cost us?

(This is when I thought to my self. Ok so these people want me to make a deck for them in which every court card is a complete illustration that I would charge around $3K for plus, back design, tuck case, and all the production work involved)

When I answered them they were dumbfounded. and responded.

BC: Well... We were thinking of $3000-$5000 for the job.

Me: You can have a back design and standard faces for that. (knowing that I could just use the .ai file of the standard bike faces I got from USPC I even gave them all the production work for free.)

I then gave them two different prices. One price was with me retaining the rights to the deck to sell and distribute as well. One price was a complete buy out of the rights to the deck.

Going back to something I mentioned earlier.

when he should be looking at "WOW look how much $$ this artists work is going to generate for my company"

When I quoted said company, I did so with the knowledge and collateral of what I could stand to make if I designed, produced, and distributed the deck my self.

The same story was true when "NO NAME" big card company(s) contacted me to license the Fed52. First off I didn't want produce a boat load of decks and then wholesale them to the lowest bidder. The moment I wholesale my decks is the day that I loose control of the "Big Three" of art, Supply, Demand, PRICE. As longs as I hold the keys to my decks and their distribution I can control all three. On top of that I didn't want to play in the "High Volume / Low Production cost" Game. I've been their and done that for other studios.

CARD COMPANY: We will pay you a design fee and royalties on sales for exclusive rights to Fed 52 and we will print 50,000 decks.

ME: I can make 3 to 4 times as much as your are offering printing only 5000 decks and doing it all on my own.

CARD COMPANY: But we can get your decks in front of the whole world.

ME: If my decks were in front of the whole world they would sell for the same price as your decks. Thats not the world I want to be in.

Ok sorry, got off track I'll get back to "how much for a design"

Ultimately you are going to get what you pay for, plain and simple. If you ask or pay a guy $1000 for a deck, 9 out of 10 times you get a $1000 deck. At the same time when you use the term "Fair" price fair is whatever the artist is willing to take and whatever the client is willing to pay.

My dad always said, when commenting on an items worth...

"Its worth whatever someone will pay for it"

[RandyButterfield]

Hey Scott,

The $50 hourly rate that Rob mentioned is actually on the low-to-medium end of Freelance Design rates. Any seasoned Designer should be able to get at least $1,000 for a Deck design with re-colored standard Faces and custom Tuck, Back, AOS, Jokers and Gaffs.

I was asked earlier this year what my rate would be for a fully-custom Deck. I said I would never design a fully-custom Deck for anyone but myself. The amount of hours spent on a fully-custom design is so encompassing it almost has to be a passion project for the designer working on it!

I would imagine a semi-custom Deck could be anywhere from $2,000 - $3,000, depending on the degree of customizing the "base" Court Cards (i.e. Americana, Vortex, Revision 1....).

That's just my opinion though! There's probably a lot of starving artists that will work for very low rates, the chances of them following through and finishing someone else's fully-custom Deck idea could be very slim.

Thanks, Randy

[Rob Wright]

Randy, I would agree that $50 an hour would be on the low side. That's just what I paid a graphic artist to design a logo, and that was 6-7 years ago. The old adage "you get what you pay for" would certainly apply here. Could someone get a decent deck designed for $1,000. Probably so. As we all have seen on KS- sometimes that's all you need. Not necessarily a good thing.

[xela]

If I may chime in here.

There are designers of all skill and expertise on the web. What their price comes down to is the profit expectation of the client. Let me elaborate with web design.

It's very possible to find someone who will design your whole site free of charge. These people tend to be hobbyists, usually under 18 years old, and will be doing these favors for clients that they're acquainted with and non-profit sites (for example, a forum or a blog).

If I own, say, Ellusionist, and hypothetically I make 10 million a year, that should give me perspective on what my price range is to have a site designed. I can have my entire site designed for just $100, but it will look like an atrocity from 2002. Likewise I can have the site designed for $50,000, but a site that expensive will only be slightly superior, if at all, to one designed for $15,000.

At the end of the day, if I know I can use this site to bring in $10mil, why not get something of high quality?

so the tl;dr is you can find someone to make a deck design for free, or for $20,000, but the quality will be just as large as the price range, and the clout of a high-end designer may bring free marketing while finding a hidden, affordable gem has its own benefits.

[Lukeout]

If possible, try to get an artist who will work on a royalty - Ideally one who already digs the subject matter. I don't say this to be cheap, I say this because you want the designer to be really engaged in the product. The designer should do well if the deck does well. Then you can count on the designer not only to do the best job he can (or has time for), but also, he can help you market your deck by bringing in his personal social network as well.

If you can't find a designer like that, then hit Odesk and browse through some portfolios.

Luke