Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs

[MagikFingerz]

Somehow, I don't think he'll miss your pledge, since there will be enough people interested in seeing a better version of this to replace any lost funds from folks like you and then some. 

You wouldn't think so judging by many of the comments in this thread. And don't forget that many people have a set quantity they buy decks in, which would effectively get halved when only one deck is offered instead of two.

Anyway, it doesn't matter since according to the last update it will relaunch with both decks right off the bat, with updated shipping and single deck pledge levels.

[Don Boyer]

Somehow, I don't think he'll miss your pledge, since there will be enough people interested in seeing a better version of this to replace any lost funds from folks like you and then some. 

You wouldn't think so judging by many of the comments in this thread. And don't forget that many people have a set quantity they buy decks in, which would effectively get halved when only one deck is offered instead of two.

Anyway, it doesn't matter since according to the last update it will relaunch with both decks right off the bat, with updated shipping and single deck pledge levels.

Thanks for that update.

You're judging the demand based solely on who's commenting in this topic.  I'm judging it by not just the collecting community as a whole, but the Kickstarter community as a whole as well.  The best, most successful decks found mass appeal, going beyond the card collector market in a big way.  It's the old "build a better mousetrap" idea - make the deck better, more people will be interested in it, assuming a open market with a level playing field.

[BiggerDee]

I'm currently backing 10 or so KS decks that haven't shipped yet. If they are hit with the new USPS rates like 4PM was anticipating being hit, they may be in trouble.

[Lukeout]

I'm currently backing 10 or so KS decks that haven't shipped yet. If they are hit with the new USPS rates like 4PM was anticipating being hit, they may be in trouble.

Shipping is such a big % of these projects, that an increase in deck price of $.10-$.20 really isn't a a big needle mover on the cost side.

As for stopping this campaign, it looks like the creator made an "underfund" goal as we call it in the KS biz. A goal that isn't enough to do what you want. Folks do them (all the time on the game side) on the belief that once you hit your goal, pledges pile on as stretch-goals are pretty exciting and attention grabbing. Folks like to back a winner. It's a dangerous way to do things, but business is risky.

Folks also keep forgetting with all their calculations on this forum, that KS projects have life after KS and that inventory has value. This creator might be worried about post KS sales if the deck isn't made at a more premium level.

[Don Boyer]

I'm currently backing 10 or so KS decks that haven't shipped yet. If they are hit with the new USPS rates like 4PM was anticipating being hit, they may be in trouble.

Shipping is such a big % of these projects, that an increase in deck price of $.10-$.20 really isn't a a big needle mover on the cost side.

As for stopping this campaign, it looks like the creator made an "underfund" goal as we call it in the KS biz. A goal that isn't enough to do what you want. Folks do them (all the time on the game side) on the belief that once you hit your goal, pledges pile on as stretch-goals are pretty exciting and attention grabbing. Folks like to back a winner. It's a dangerous way to do things, but business is risky.

Folks also keep forgetting with all their calculations on this forum, that KS projects have life after KS and that inventory has value. This creator might be worried about post KS sales if the deck isn't made at a more premium level.

There's been more than a few deck project that, intentionally or otherwise, went for an underfund and made the goal without actually making enough to cover the costs.  Needless to say, we added them to the list of Kickstarter successful failures, decks that funded and were never produced.  In most cases, it's a case of fraud and the deck never shows up, with the creator absconding with the cash.  Sometimes, when you're lucky, the creator does indeed offer refunds, but this method is few and far between.

Yes, by making the Legacy deck a premium deck with the second deck as a stretch goal, the deck's likely to have a better resale value when the project ends and the rewards have shipped.

[BiggerDee]

Exactly. While some projects go through the roof and can absorb some extra shipping costs (if they are small), most projects don't grab that much profit. 4PM thought it critical enough to use it as a critical reason to cancel the project. 20 cents on a deck isn't much, but bricks, uncuts, extras like poker sets, et cetera, would jack the cost in a hurry. Since most KS creators aren't saavy businesspersons, many are already on thin margins. Quite a few projects were emblazoned in controversy because the had money to print, but ran out before, or during, shipping. I can think of close to a dozen like this in the past couple of years alone.

[Lukeout]

Exactly. While some projects go through the roof and can absorb some extra shipping costs (if they are small), most projects don't grab that much profit. 4PM thought it critical enough to use it as a critical reason to cancel the project. 20 cents on a deck isn't much, but bricks, uncuts, extras like poker sets, et cetera, would jack the cost in a hurry. Since most KS creators aren't saavy businesspersons, many are already on thin margins. Quite a few projects were emblazoned in controversy because the had money to print, but ran out before, or during, shipping. I can think of close to a dozen like this in the past couple of years alone.

Good point on the other "non-card" stuff too. I don't know what minimums are on things like chips, but T-shirts are almost zero margin on KS for most people.

[Utterfool]

I completely understand what 4PM is doing here and I feel that most of the arguments and statements are quite valid.

The only thing for me is that this shows one of the huge flaws in kickstarter. There is very little investment in it for the creators. Now I am not saying this is true for everyone as some companies (not typically on the playing card side) have already spent a budget on design and prototypes. But usually for the playing card market all that is at risk for the creator is the time they spent designing, which I am sure is considered valuable to them, However should not have a monetary value unless they are doing the design of the deck as their job. (i.e. as their source of income and not in their spare time, as many designers do). In fact for many decks it is coming down to the creator only coming up with a concept and only putting the minimal amount of work into it before the campaign and then working on it while the campaign is active and much more so once the campaign is funded.
In my eyes there should be more risk for the creator. As it is now the major risk goes to the buyer and for the most part none to the creator.  this is why the number of fraud and failed successes is so high. Because creators don't risk, so if they see a chance that they will have to spend their own money at some point, they see this as taking a loss and not like investing in their project. As Lukeout said (or maybe only implied) it is the inventory after the completion of the kickstarter orders that should help on the profit.

Now I know someone will try to bring up the creator and investor example. And say the person who pledges is an investor and therefore takes that large risk on themselves as in a business scenario. With investors a creator gets rid of a portion of their risk (notice I didn't say all). However this scenario does not work for kickstarter. The people who pledge are not truthfully investors. We are pre-sales to help a project get finished. If we were investors we would expect to see some of the profits from the excess stock that is sold (like maybe a penny or two on each of the $50 decks Jackson sells).

Creators obviously can do what they like. And 4PM backing out of this project now in hopes they can run a more successful campaign next time is certainly a legitimate strategy. Many creators have done it and come up with many more pledges the next time and I hope that is what happens here as I do like these decks. But in the end the reason this happened is because they don't want to invest too much in their own project while still creating the best deck that they can that will be the most attractive on resales.

[Lukeout]

I agree that backers are not investors. I often say that backers take "investor risks without investor payout potential." Not so much for cancelled projects as there is little harm done to backers other than dashed hopes, but for projects that are funded and the creator goes AWOL.

Eventually, reputation will matter and we'll all get smarter. I can't imagine 4pm launching another deck project like this one with the same goal as no one will believe them. I know it feels like KS has been around for ever, but I still think the entire process is still having growing pains. I just wish folks wouldn't set underfund goals unless they are willing to take the risk all the way. On the game side, I've seen $50K goals for products that I KNOW need to raise at least $300K to make, but those creators are committed to putting the rest of the money in themselves if they have to.

[CBJ]

These have now re-launched!!!

Here's the link

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/4pm/legacy-bicycle-playing-cards-by-4pm-designs

[sqratch]

Love the deck but I doubt it will make 30k

It didn't even make 15k on the last one how would this possibly make 30?

I still feel he should of released one color first then after hitting a stretch goal release the second.

[Don Boyer]

Love the deck but I doubt it will make 30k

It didn't even make 15k on the last one how would this possibly make 30?

I still feel he should of released one color first then after hitting a stretch goal release the second.

I'm in agreement with the last sentence, but there's actually a solid chance he'll make the goal.  By campaign's end, he was spitting distance from funded when he first offered this deck.

[Strag]

Love the deck but I doubt it will make 30k

It didn't even make 15k on the last one how would this possibly make 30?

I still feel he should of released one color first then after hitting a stretch goal release the second.

I'm in agreement with the last sentence, but there's actually a solid chance he'll make the goal.  By campaign's end, he was spitting distance from funded when he first offered this deck.

Yes, he was in spitting distance of 15K.  How does that mean he will make 30K?  I, for one, am no longer pledging and I'm sure he's lost others, purely because of the last cancellation.

[PurpleIce]

Love the deck but I doubt it will make 30k

It didn't even make 15k on the last one how would this possibly make 30?

I still feel he should of released one color first then after hitting a stretch goal release the second.

I'm in agreement with the last sentence, but there's actually a solid chance he'll make the goal.  By campaign's end, he was spitting distance from funded when he first offered this deck.

Yes, he was in spitting distance of 15K.  How does that mean he will make 30K?  I, for one, am no longer pledging and I'm sure he's lost others, purely because of the last cancellation.

I actually think he might make the goal as well. But for the "improvements" he made, to actually require him to double his funding goal seems a little bit more on a greed side rather than "improvement" side to me.

[ruicorreia]

With so many decks around (Kickstarter, E, T11, CARC...) the buyers are very dispersed, so the goal seems too ambicious.

[rousselle]

I am among those who won't be renewing my pledge. He re-opened this one in the middle of the working day, at a time I couldn't be checking in, I missed the early bird specials that I had managed to make last time, and I'm just... out of steam on this one. I still like the idea, but other back-to-basics decks are calling louder to me, now, and for the extra few bucks, I'm just not as taken with this one any longer.

[Don Boyer]

Love the deck but I doubt it will make 30k

It didn't even make 15k on the last one how would this possibly make 30?

I still feel he should of released one color first then after hitting a stretch goal release the second.

I'm in agreement with the last sentence, but there's actually a solid chance he'll make the goal.  By campaign's end, he was spitting distance from funded when he first offered this deck.

Yes, he was in spitting distance of 15K.  How does that mean he will make 30K?  I, for one, am no longer pledging and I'm sure he's lost others, purely because of the last cancellation.

I never indicated it was a sure thing, just that he has a solid chance.  In two days he's already 25% of the way to the goal, with 43 days remaining.

[Yashi]

I didn't renew my pledge too since I missed out on the early birds. I starred it for now. He also mentioned earlier in the previous campaign updates that they would carry on the early bird seals and dice but made no mention of it during the relaunch. I went for the SIGNED & NUMBERED (DECK EDITION) before but with Requiem and Origins out, I think I'd just go for 1 red and 1 blue for this round.

[Sher143]

I didn't renew my pledge too since I missed out on the early birds. I starred it for now. He also mentioned earlier in the previous campaign updates that they would carry on the early bird seals and dice but made no mention of it during the relaunch.

Yeah, I didn't renew mine, either. I was wondering if the early bird seals would still be carried over, because like you said, it wasn't mentioned during the relaunch. I managed to get a Gran Riserva in the Requim campaign, so I decided not to pledge for this one.

[ivan]

Looks like i am not the only one who didn't renew my pledge.

I managed to get a Gran Riserva in the Requim campaign, so I decided not to pledge for this one.

Wow...! congrats Sher. I missed out on the Gran Riserva due to time zone differences.

[CBJ]

These look amazing!!!


UPDATE:
"Today we got in our a legacy prototype decks and wanted to share them with you all. These decks help us test out different shades of color and give us a proper look at how the artwork transfers to cards. We have protodecks for both Legacy blue and red as well as the limited edition black. The detail in the artwork comes through quite well and we are extremely excited to see how the final product would be.
























CBJ

[Don Boyer]

OK< now I HAVE to get off the fence and get some of these!  They're freakin' amazing!  They remind me a LOT of the beautiful "Limited Edition" series that USPC was making as a set of ten but only completed the first two.  This could EASILY have been a deck in that series, except USPC used standard faces and these are much cooler.

[Yashi]

OK< now I HAVE to get off the fence and get some of these!  They're freakin' amazing!  They remind me a LOT of the beautiful "Limited Edition" series that USPC was making as a set of ten but only completed the first two.  This could EASILY have been a deck in that series, except USPC used standard faces and these are much cooler.

I heard that the Black deck is being printed by MPC and that it's quite pricey. Kind of ironic though that they print a deck about Bicycle's Legacy through MPC.

[Don Boyer]

OK< now I HAVE to get off the fence and get some of these!  They're freakin' amazing!  They remind me a LOT of the beautiful "Limited Edition" series that USPC was making as a set of ten but only completed the first two.  This could EASILY have been a deck in that series, except USPC used standard faces and these are much cooler.

I heard that the Black deck is being printed by MPC and that it's quite pricey. Kind of ironic though that they print a deck about Bicycle's Legacy through MPC.

It occurs to me that USPC might have a few things to say about that. He's using some elements of designs owned by USPC on that back...

[Magic_Orthodoxy]

IMO these cards are amaze-balls. If you were on the fence about this campaign  - get off it and whip out your wallet

      < me throwing a tantrum if these cards are not made