Legends - Test Decks (prelude to early-2014 release)

[Don Boyer]

I finally got permission from Lawrence Sullivan to break the silence about these...

In addition to CARC's Black Legends, a small quantity of these were created in red and blue.  I was one of the people he asked to test them out a while and offer my comments on them.  Only about a gross total were distributed - they're NOT intended for sale, but as a test printing of a future version of the Legends deck that's due out early next year.  So it's more like Legends 1.1 rather than 2.0.

I remember that when the Legends first came out, some people weren't very impressed over the finish, though many of those people have started to learn that they improve a good deal with age.  This test deck has a much slicker feel to it out of the tuck box - the slip between the cards is phenomenal.  I stink at cardistry but I can make a passable fan using these.  They're also traditionally cut, so they shuffle and faro while face-down with ease.

Of course, we've all been talking about the box and the custom seal - I love that seal!

This future version of the deck, which will be based on these, is intended as a staple deck for card players as well as the collector/magician/cardist crowd that will be widely and affordably available in Asia - no word yet on availability and pricing outside of Asia.  To that end, this version of the deck does NOT have the marking system or the one-way marks on the back.  Additionally, all but two of the custom courts have been replaced with standard ones, the card reveals on the box have been removed, and the deck producer is listed as the Legends Playing Card Co.  As a nod to magicians, the one-way marks on the faces are still intact - those won't affect game play - and the non-reveal joker has been replaced with a blank-faced card.  In addition, I'm sure a creative magician could find ways to take advantage of that diamond window on the back.

Head over to http://legendsplayingcards.com/ and subscribe to receive updates on the new Legends deck when the release is set.

The final deck will look a lot like this, but possibly a little bit different - just some tweaks here and there, once the feedback from the testers has all come in.  As long as the cards inside are as good as these test decks are, I'll be very happy and I think the rest of you will be as well!

Tip: click on the pictures to open them in a new window, then click AGAIN to zoom in - the images are huge.

[sqratch]

Cant wait to get my hands on some tomorrow.

I wonder if they plan on making a card that utalize that cutout as a reveal.

I have not purchased any cards from them so I am looking forward to seeing how they feel.

[Paul.Middleton]

We'll be stocking these in the next few weeks (sooner all being well).

[Card Player]

We'll be stocking these in the next week or so.

JP, are we talking about the same decks or the Black? This is about the Red and Blue test decks, they are not being released until early 2014.

[Paul.Middleton]

We'll be stocking these in the next week or so.

JP, are we talking about the same decks or the Black? This is about the Red and Blue test decks not being released until early 2014.

The red and blue test decks are going to be stocked by us also, and were shipped to us 2-3 weeks back. A week may be optimistic, but all being well they'll be in stock soon. The black is a CARC exclusive - though may still pick up a few from them.

[Paul.Middleton]

Also - these are the decks that will come BEFORE the 2014 release.

[hecrob]

Don, does this mean that the black version that is going to be available tomorrow its not going to include the marking system? Or the nice reveals from the first edition ones?

[Card Player]

We'll be stocking these in the next week or so.

JP, are we talking about the same decks or the Black? This is about the Red and Blue test decks not being released until early 2014.

The red and blue test decks are going to be stocked by us also, and were shipped to us 2-3 weeks back. A week may be optimistic, but all being well they'll be in stock soon. The black is a CARC exclusive - though may still pick up a few from them.

You mean the Red and Blue v2 decks don't you? Not actual test decks? Why would someone mass produce test decks so a secondary seller can sell them?

JP, tell me why I should buy these decks from you and not wait for legendsplayingcards.com? Are your decks different then what's going to be available for retail?

Don, does this mean that the black version that is going to be available tomorrow its not going to include the marking system? Or the nice reveals from the first edition ones?

I know I'm not Don but I had the same question. That's what it sounds like to me. They made a standard version of legends (v2) for all card users. No marking system, as per the "poker" branding on the tuck and seal.

[Don Boyer]

If JP's getting them in stock, I know not from where.  Lawrence Sullivan told me that after this print run of blues and reds was broken up, he's left with very little.  The lion's share went to two different people for their own personal collections, and much of the rest went to people chosen by Lawrence to evaluate and report on for him.  It's possible one of those two sold some of them, though I'd think it unlikely.  I know it's not the other one - that was Bill Kalush.

I can confirm the black decks are just like the blue and red ones I got.  I just opened the black deck I got from Bill today.  Same smooth handling, but also minus the reveals and markings.  The only reveal left is the one on the joker.  It was great timing for me to visit CARC - I got to meet Helder Guimarães and his father as well!

[Paul.Middleton]

JP, are we talking about the same decks or the Black? This is about the Red and Blue test decks not being released until early 2014. You mean the Red and Blue v2 decks don't you? Not actual test decks? Why would someone mass produce test decks so a secondary seller can sell them?

Hello, they are not mass produced just so I can sell them. I have a relatively good relationship with Lawrence ( I like to think, anyway) after selling his initial Legends deck - a small amount of which remains.

JP, tell me why I should buy these decks from you and not wait for legendsplayingcards.com? Are your decks different then what's going to be available for retail?

Feel free to do as you please Most of my customers are UK and EU based with a few in Australia/New Zealand, there are many reasons why they buy from me and not other places, but the reality is i'm not trying to sell these to you. I merely stated a fact, so if any of my customers come across these thread they know we've got them on the way.

If JP's getting them in stock, I know not from where.  Lawrence Sullivan told me that after this print run of blues and reds was broken up, he's left with very little.  The lion's share went to two different people for their own personal collections, and much of the rest went to people chosen by Lawrence to evaluate and report on for him.  It's possible one of those two sold some of them, though I'd think it unlikely.  I know it's not the other one - that was Bill Kalush.

Hi Don, as I said via email earlier this morning. They are from the source, Lawrence.

I've asked him to email you to clarify but it shouldn't come as that much of a surprise I would hope, the original Legends deck has been a consistent seller on the site since day one.

[Don Boyer]

So Lawrence did email me:

Hey Don,

JP got the only one of the only grosses I had left of the v.2s, he contacted me really early on when Kalush did. So between him Kalush and me there are 500 in red and blue of this batch. Apologies if I wasn't clear on that in one of my emails.

Still totally a test run, but the guys will be selling a small batch of the even more limited reds and blues.

-Lawrence

In his own words.  Good show, JP!  You scored a major coup with that - one of the more rare decks out there right now!

Here's another quote regarding the Legends from him:

Yeah, that would be a good description. They weren't intended for retail sale. They are designed to be a staple deck, so you can mention next year that is planned, though of course nothing is set in stone yet. I can sell a lot more to laymen than magicians, that is my main goal for Legends.

It would appear that, in all likelihood, Lawrence won't be selling the v2s himself on his site.  He just doesn't have many left, though it's not impossible he'd change his mind.  Either way, he's calling them v2s, so I'm calling them v2 as well.  The v2 is still a test deck, never originally meant for retail, meaning that JP's stash will go faster than raw meat in a piranha tank, so if you want some, you need to be READY when they arrive!

The legendsplayingcards.com site will keep you updated.  If Lawrence sells his v2s, he'll let you know.  If Lawrence just keeps what he has left and sells the v3 early next year as planned, he'll let you know.  So no matter how you look at it, if you're interested in Legends, it's a good idea to sign up.

Did I neglect to mention that these are REALLY good cards? 

[Rob Wright]

So Don, a little clarification.
What's the difference between CARC, Expert Playing Card Co., and Legends Playing Card Co?

[kdklown]

There is a lot of "cross pollination" in this business and I think that is where all the confusion lies.  I am sure Don will expound on and correct what I say here but...

Conjuring Arts Research Center (Established by Bill Kalush) Specializes in Magic.  They don't necessarily sell magic as much as they deal in all things Magic Theory, history and study.  They're focused more on the record keeping and preserving magic knowledge.  This, however, also includes a number of playing card projects.  Bill Kalush seems to focus on reviving vintage designs and definitely takes painstaking efforts to increase the usability and handling of his cards, for the purposes of magic/sleight of hand.  Recently he has created an offshoot of CARC devoted solely to playing cards. 

Enter the Expert Playing Card Company.  Now I say offshoot however to my knowledge they are sold through CARC and do not have their own devoted Website.  They are , though, sold through different outlets as well (see Global Titans).  Bill has also focused his efforts with this project toward companies outside of the USPC.  In my opinion Bill's effort on this front will loosen the stranglehold the USPC has on the market.  He generally develops excellent quality cards and when people get their hands on his products it should serve to weaken the monopoly.

The Legends Playing Card Company is a new effort by the original Legends creator and magician, Lawrence Sullivan.  This is seemingly created for the Legends v2 in an effort drive exposure.  The original Legends were also sold through multiple outlets. 

Hope this helps, I'm sure Don will be along soon to amend.

[Don Boyer]

Hope this helps, I'm sure Don will be along soon to amend.

Sounds pretty accurate for the most part.  Lawrence Sullivan works closely with CARC/Expert in their deck manufacturing, sometimes sharing the same factories.

[Collector]

Those holes in backs of the tuck cases are unnecessary things.

[Card Player]

Those holes in backs of the tuck cases are unnecessary things.

I mentioned this on the Black Legends thread. Those cut holes do more then just show the Lawrence Sullivan logo. The tuck box does not use the actual color of the card back design. Therefor, the cut out functionally allows one to see the actual card color. If the cut out was a rectangle like you see with bee casino decks, would you still have a problem with it or say its unnecessary? Probably not.

[Don Boyer]

Those holes in backs of the tuck cases are unnecessary things.

Actually, Lawrence says that people like them.  Go figure!

[bhong]

Those holes in backs of the tuck cases are unnecessary things.

Actually, Lawrence says that people like them.  Go figure!

I think the hole in the tuck box works really well with the design. Like !An0nym0u5 pointed out, the back of the tuck isn't the same colour of the deck so the window gives you a better view of the card colours ,but to each their own. I'm glad there are become a "staple" deck. I really do hope they're for sale in North America. I wouldn't mind picking up some to play with friends.

[Paul.Middleton]

Thanks for posting that Don, much appreciated. I would never state publicly something i'm not 100% confident of.

As for the decks themselves, i've had a LOT of interest in these from members of this forum, and that's before the majority of my regular UK/EU customers know about these decks coming. So here's pretty much the state-of-play as i've said to a few that have enquired over the past 24 hours.

_____

Hopefully the stock will be in within 3 weeks approximately, maybe sooner. Unfortunately I can't say anymore accurately than than, but you may or may not be able to pick them up from CARC before that time. I don't know.

We have not set a price for a variety of reasons, but the main one is UK customs and import duty charges. Until we know how much we'll be paying, we can't accept pre-orders on this one as we don't yet know how much they're going to cost us. US companies don't pay import taxes on cards apparently (so i've been told) so you're probably going to get these cheaper at CARC if you're not UK/EU based - I don't know that to be a fact, but I thought it only fair to point out that probability, especially as I don't think we'll have any trouble selling these.

With really popular releases, we do tend to list the deck on the site for a couple of days first before it is available to order. Giving everyone a chance to spot it, you'll be able to add your email to the product page when it says "in stock soon" and get an email within minutes of when they're actually available to buy. This is the fairest way for us to sell in-demand decks we believe, as the many regular customers don't miss out either. Alternatively, you can sign up to the newsletter on the site and we'll also let people know via that BEFORE they are available to buy also.

____

On a side note, having not seen the new boxes yet - I personally really like the cutout.

[Don Boyer]

On a side note, having not seen the new boxes yet - I personally really like the cutout.

The height of the cutout is just right for displaying a pip from a card that has centered pips, if you face the cards in that direction when inserting them.  I'm waiting for an enterprising magician to take advantage of that fact and create a killer routine where a card changes IN THE BOX, with the spectator watching the entire time!  Picture it - changing the ace of clubs to the 9 of diamond, 5 of spades, 3 hearts, etc.  I'm already tossing around ideas in my head for it.

[Paul.Middleton]

Good point, and whilst i'm just a layman in magic terms, I could really appreciate that.

[Collector]

Those holes in backs of the tuck cases are unnecessary things.

... would you still have a problem with it or say its unnecessary? ...

Yes, I will. Those who care about this moment will know about it before their purchase. Other people won't care about it at all. It is still black and white, not red or blue. Court cards aren't also all standard. But this moment isn't explained on the tuck cases. And I think this moment is more important for people than tints of black on backs.

Now I've heard that only two court cards are custom in Black Legends + there is no marking on them. I am afraid a lot of people will be really disappointed with these details because, I am sure, a lot of them bought up them so quickly due to such features in the first edition. CARC could explain those moments on their site. I won't believe that they didn't understand that it was a question of great importance for their primary audience.

Unfrotunately I see these "innocuous reservations" again and again from different playing card producers. Nothing changes.

Those holes in backs of the tuck cases are unnecessary things.

Actually, Lawrence says that people like them.  Go figure!

These days, people will like anything named "cool" just because someone has skilfully named it "cool". Vampires, steampunk, zombies... Agressive marketing in connection with expertly developed herd instinct works miracles.

[Card Player]

Yes, I will. Those who care about this moment will know about it before their purchase. Other people won't care about it at all. It is still black and white, not red or blue. Court cards aren't also all standard. But this moment isn't explained on the tuck cases. And I think this moment is more important for people than tints of black on backs.

Now I've heard that only two court cards are custom in Black Legends + there is no marking on them. I am afraid a lot of people will be really disappointed with these details because, I am sure, a lot of them bought up them so quickly due to such features in the first edition. CARC could explain those moments on their site. I won't believe that they didn't understand that it was a question of great importance for their primary audience.

The v2's are purposely being produced as a standard deck. That's the intention. At first, I did not like the "supreme quality" tag on the tuck. I could not understand who Lawrence Sullivan was trying to sell. But NOW I get it. They are trying to make this a staple deck of cards. A deck someone would be buying at a convince store for the first time to play bridge, old maid, poker or anything else. These are only test decks of something that could be mass produced. The Black's are a limited edition, exclusive to CARC. I was fully aware the previous features of the V1 were not on the Black V2's. Please lets not forget these are illustrated by Mark Stutzman. Somewhere between v1 and v2 some have lost sight of that.

[Paul Carpenter]

Amen to that. Beautiful design by a highly respected illustrator, great handling, (relatively) inexpensive price. There's a lot to love here, no matter the version.

[Don Boyer]

Anon hit the nail on the head.  Lawrence is ambitiously out to make this deck the Bicycle of Asia, so to speak.  At the very least, his audience for the cards isn't exclusively magicians - he's aiming at game players, for whom a marked deck would be immediately suspect.  I'd wager that was also the reasoning behind making most of the court cards with standard faces.  He did retain the telltales on the front of the cards (bold/light indices) but the rest of the markings are gone, as are the box reveals.  He kept one joker, the reveal joker, so that could still be used, and he swapped the other for a blank faced card - concessions to the magicians who love the performance.  Discounting the markings, he also made the v2 deck different in that the diamond at the card's center back is now flipped to the correct orientation to show of his "LS" logo - this was reversed on version 1, perhaps as a way to make them distinct from a non-gimmicked deck.

Why does the box have a hole in the back?  Well, he wanted potential buyers to be able to see what the card backs look like, since the box art has a lot of metallic inks.  They appear to like it.  It's also the reason why he went with a shiny finish - in China, shiny is often equated with new, and he felt the glossy finish would hold up better long-term over a matte finish.  While a magician is constantly carrying around a pack of cards, the average card player keeps them in a drawer somewhere or inside of a poker kit, protected well enough that the hole in the box isn't a big deal in terms of the deck's longevity.  One change that he does have in mind for what I assume will be version 3 is that he wants more embossing.

He might lose you, Collector, as a potential customer, but he's expanding the customer base to a much larger audience, bringing in many thousands and even tens of thousands more customers.  He'd probably be happy when his market penetration reaches tens or hundreds of millions!  There's no way the card collector community alone could support such an expansion - there's just not enough of us, even if every one of us bought these decks.