Fraud Alert Topic - Post Ripoffs and Counterfeits Here

[Justin O.]

Would love everyones input on this Ebay item
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-deck-Karnival-DOSE-deck-playing-cards-BY-BBM-MFG-USPCC-/181289185326?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a35ad702e

I've been looking for this deck for a while now and have had zero luck, I'm a little suspicious to see it pop up all of a sudden and to see so many in stock.
Does this look suspect or am I just being paranoid?

Thanks for any input
-Justin

[Fanofyankees13]

Not sure if you're being paranoid or not, but the seller does have pretty overwhelmingly positive feedback. Regardless, if you don't feel comfortable buying it, I have an extra deck I could just send you. Throw me a PM if you're interested.

[Justin O.]

I really appreciate it FoY, I am much more comfortable buying through the community than off eBay overseas !

PM sent!

[badpete69]

This seller is perfectly fine. I buy from him all the time and as recently as 2 days ago. Buy from him with complete confidence.  That deck is not that hard to find BTW.

[Sher143]

Yeah,  I ordered the warrior horse deck from him and I got it. The deck came in a padded envelope. 

[Nurul]

Yup, I've bought from him before, he's cool. Although, the price for that deck is a bit overpriced. You can get it cheaper on big blind medias website. Not too sure how much shipping overseas is though, can't expect it to be too much from the UK.

[Anthony]

I've wanted to pick this deck up, but just not at that price. BBM has been sold out for a bit ($8.24), but the deck they have listed on their site is the new 2 way back version.


 

[Don Boyer]

I've wanted to pick this deck up, but just not at that price. BBM has been sold out for a bit ($8.24), but the deck they have listed on their site is the new 2 way back version.

The deck's first incarnation was the same as what the eBay seller has.  The box had that smiley face on it and nothing else.  It was the first Karnival deck to not bear the Bicycle name - why, I couldn't tell you.  Nor can I tell you why the name, Karnival Dose, never appeared on the box.  The designer, Sam Hayles, has a studio called Dose Productions, so that explains the name itself.  The cards had those one-way smiley faces on the backs.  At the time, it was BBM's second fully-custom deck design, with Bicycle Karnival Dead Eyes being the first.

The second incarnation of this deck came out when BBM started making foil-box versions of many of their decks as limited editions.  That was the introduction of the Bicycle Karnival Dose Redux deck - they went with Bicycle branding this time around.  The backs had a double-headed smiley-face design that was supposed to seem two-way, but if you examined the corners, you'd see one of them was different from the others, with more white in it, making the deck a nearly-subtle one-way back.

That first version of the deck sold out and is not being reprinted.  The second version wasn't as popular, I think, but it's printed as a limited edition, so they won't last forever.  I wouldn't say that $20 a pack is the best price, but I don't think it's out of the ballpark, either.

[Justin O.]

Thanks for all of the feedback guys, especially the confirmation of the seller, he has a great shop that I feel more confident looking through it knowing he has some endorsement.
I saw that BBM has the Dose Redux but that isn't what I'm looking for; I have had a lot of trouble finding the original to be honest, it's been somewhat of a unicorn I can't seem to pin down.
I'm incredibly grateful to FoY for hooking me up, I'm much more comfortable buying from community members here where I can check the testimonials and not have to worry if they are legitimate or not..

[agera94]

Was considering posting something similar to this myself. The sheer number of decks that have been often bound to giveaways subject to spend x receive y means there's a high chance they're counterfeit. For those of you unfamiliar with malaysia, the currency trades at around 1 USD buys 3.28 RM (Malaysian Ringet). The average income of a Malaysian working is around $1000RM/month - this is also amongst the more privileged workers out there. Let's say back when E had stock of the Black Ghost 1st Edition they may have done spend $150 and get a ghost deck free. That's almost 500RM not including shipping. This guy apparently has/had a brick of these...

Another notable example was the madison blue rounders. Again, buy a brick of browns, get a blue deck. That's about $250 RM per brick and he apparently has 12 or more. I'm more concerned about all of the positive feedback he has; they're probably from people who don't open the decks. If he starts listing Jerry's by the brick then I think that will be the definitive answer to our concerns.

[Don Boyer]

Was considering posting something similar to this myself. The sheer number of decks that have been often bound to giveaways subject to spend x receive y means there's a high chance they're counterfeit. For those of you unfamiliar with malaysia, the currency trades at around 1 USD buys 3.28 RM (Malaysian Ringet). The average income of a Malaysian working is around $1000RM/month - this is also amongst the more privileged workers out there. Let's say back when E had stock of the Black Ghost 1st Edition they may have done spend $150 and get a ghost deck free. That's almost 500RM not including shipping. This guy apparently has/had a brick of these...

Another notable example was the madison blue rounders. Again, buy a brick of browns, get a blue deck. That's about $250 RM per brick and he apparently has 12 or more. I'm more concerned about all of the positive feedback he has; they're probably from people who don't open the decks. If he starts listing Jerry's by the brick then I think that will be the definitive answer to our concerns.

The prize tier for BG1E was actually $375.  Well over a month's salary for the average Malaysian.  It was on eBay for much less, though.

[agera94]

Was considering posting something similar to this myself. The sheer number of decks that have been often bound to giveaways subject to spend x receive y means there's a high chance they're counterfeit. For those of you unfamiliar with malaysia, the currency trades at around 1 USD buys 3.28 RM (Malaysian Ringet). The average income of a Malaysian working is around $1000RM/month - this is also amongst the more privileged workers out there. Let's say back when E had stock of the Black Ghost 1st Edition they may have done spend $150 and get a ghost deck free. That's almost 500RM not including shipping. This guy apparently has/had a brick of these...

Another notable example was the madison blue rounders. Again, buy a brick of browns, get a blue deck. That's about $250 RM per brick and he apparently has 12 or more. I'm more concerned about all of the positive feedback he has; they're probably from people who don't open the decks. If he starts listing Jerry's by the brick then I think that will be the definitive answer to our concerns.

The prize tier for BG1E was actually $375.  Well over a month's salary for the average Malaysian.  It was on eBay for much less, though.

Ahh yes, silly me. I was thinking of a couple of occasions when it was for $142 and something else, but yes you are correct. That provides even more substance to the arguments against this seller.

Also came across something interesting from the same guy. A brick worth of Magic Con V2 decks signed by D&D???
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AUTOGRAPHED-Dan-and-Dave-Magic-con-Magiccon-v2-Playing-Cards-ONE-DECK-/110881848866?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d112be22&_uhb=1

And a few more outrageous listings when you consider things such as purchase incentives (buy x amount get y free), prize tiers amounts and the recent international shipping delays with E due to their Cyber Monday sales:
3 Scarlet rounders signed in the lucite case
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Ellusionist-Signed-Scarlet-Rounders-Playing-Cards-in-New-Lucite-Case-/121230384979?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c39e4df53&_uhb=1

6 lots of Red Arcane uncut sheets w/ Red arcane deck
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Ellusionist-Theory11-Dan-and-Dave-Dan-Dave-Red-Arcane-DECK-UNCUT-SHEET-/121230386188?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c39e4e40c&_uhb=1

12 scarlet rounders:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Ellusionist-Rare-Deck-Theory11-Dan-and-Dave-Dan-Dave-Scarlet-Rounders-ONE-DECK-/111226385130?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19e59bf2ea&_uhb=1

12 blue rounders:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Ellusionist-Rare-Deck-Theory11-Dan-and-Dave-Dan-Dave-Blue-Rounders-ONE-DECK-/111226384705?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19e59bf141&_uhb=1

The list just can go on and on forever. From looking through his listings, some of his more recent listings may actually be legit. However a majority of his listings have to be fake.

I'm willing to take one for the team - I could purchase a deck and compare it to one I own.

The only possible explanation I have for the quantity of some of these listings is that this seller is somehow connected to employees from E, D&D, T11, etc.

[Siegismyname]

The average income of a Malaysian working is around $1000RM/month - this is also amongst the more privileged workers out there.

This is off topic but I don't know where you got your figures. I know for a fact that the average F&B service crew is paid RM1600/mth.

Here are some stats:

http://www.salaryexplorer.com/salary-survey.php?loc=130&loctype=1

But I do agree that this seller's items are suspicious and I remember reading about the fake ultragaff episode on the old UC.

[agera94]

Salary yes it's more, but I was going off of wage a few years ago. It's been a while since I've spoken to my family in Malaysia so hopefully te wage has increased too.

[Mike Ratledge]

Interesting.  I knew I had seen this name before: he sold me a deck of Lane's "Multi-Miller" ('expo') Gargoyles.  I found them, put them next to another deck that I got from Lance (signed), and they are identical.  Absolutely no way they are kanged.  I'd have to say he doesn't know what he's doing first off, but once you've sold so many "ultra rare" decks, you certainly should.  Now, the Centurion 909's I bought about 3 or 4 months ago looked fake when I got them, so I put them aside.  Comparing them to another deck today, I found that they are obviously fakes - but didn't come from this guy - another seller in Malaysia (who's to say they aren't the same person?).  You have to watch yourself every step these days!

The MultiMiller Gargoyles are fine, and I paid a reasonable price for them.  I see he has the identical decks up for sale right now for $50/deck, and it appears as though he's got about 10 of them?  I have to agree that he has a good track record except for two "Neutral" feedbacks and two "Negative" feebacks, one of which I think is the original poster's (ref: fake gaffs), the other one is about a deck of JNugs that arrived "damaged".  Since it went for $550, I think I would have raised a bit more of a stink!

[Don Boyer]

Interesting.  I knew I had seen this name before: he sold me a deck of Lane's "Multi-Miller" ('expo') Gargoyles.  I found them, put them next to another deck that I got from Lance (signed), and they are identical.  Absolutely no way they are kanged.  I'd have to say he doesn't know what he's doing first off, but once you've sold so many "ultra rare" decks, you certainly should.  Now, the Centurion 909's I bought about 3 or 4 months ago looked fake when I got them, so I put them aside.  Comparing them to another deck today, I found that they are obviously fakes - but didn't come from this guy - another seller in Malaysia (who's to say they aren't the same person?).  You have to watch yourself every step these days!

The MultiMiller Gargoyles are fine, and I paid a reasonable price for them.  I see he has the identical decks up for sale right now for $50/deck, and it appears as though he's got about 10 of them?  I have to agree that he has a good track record except for two "Neutral" feedbacks and two "Negative" feebacks, one of which I think is the original poster's (ref: fake gaffs), the other one is about a deck of JNugs that arrived "damaged".  Since it went for $550, I think I would have raised a bit more of a stink!

In summation, someone in Malaysia sold you a fake pack of Centurions.  It would seem that someone in Malaysia is printing up counterfeit decks for the collectors' market, or having them made elsewhere and distributing them in Malaysia.  Either way, it's not a good sign.

[Justin O.]

Hey Guys, just want to give a heads up that I recieved a Fulton's Clip Joint Private Reserve that I believe to be a standard Clip Joint with a fake sticker slapped on.
The deck came in cellophane wrap that had the pull strip removed (Effectively making it a top celo cover and a bottom celo cover seperated from one another by a small space.)
If I'm not mistaken the Private Reserve decks did not come celo wrapped...
Maybe the seller was just being fancy and put celo on it because he was bored and had a steady hand. Ok, maybe...
The box had all of the right embossing and foil ink but what really gave it away was that the seal was a poor, pixelated and slightly color tinted version of the Private Reserve seal.

Seller might not know... But wanted to let all of you guys know.

I contacted the seller who offered me a full refund if I would like to return the deck.

[Don Boyer]

Hey Guys, just want to give a heads up that I recieved a Fulton's Clip Joint Private Reserve that I believe to be a standard Clip Joint with a fake sticker slapped on.
The deck came in cellophane wrap that had the pull strip removed (Effectively making it a top celo cover and a bottom celo cover seperated from one another by a small space.)
If I'm not mistaken the Private Reserve decks did not come celo wrapped...
Maybe the seller was just being fancy and put celo on it because he was bored and had a steady hand. Ok, maybe...
The box had all of the right embossing and foil ink but what really gave it away was that the seal was a poor, pixelated and slightly color tinted version of the Private Reserve seal.

Seller might not know... But wanted to let all of you guys know.

I contacted the seller who offered me a full refund if I would like to return the deck.

Honestly, I'm not seeing it in the photos you provided.  The fact that the seller is offering a full refund leaves me inclined to think they're not trying to rip you off.

[10ofclubs]

Going off the title of this thread, is he selling any other Limited Edition decks that look sketchy?

[Justin O.]

Honestly, I'm not seeing it in the photos you provided.  The fact that the seller is offering a full refund leaves me inclined to think they're not trying to rip you off.

I didn't call out the fact that I thought it was fake, I only addressed that the cellophane was opened when I received it on a deck that doesn't come wrapped from D/D. His response was that it was completely sealed and unopened when he sent it. It's hard to imagine he didn't know that the celo pull was removed, however the seal holds up without any close inspection and if nobody knew better I can see not even realizing there was something off.

Below is a closer image of the seal, you can see what I mean, you can see in the image that the finish on the seals are even different.
I have to say it is somewhat clever to take the standard Clip Joint and just throw a cheap printer sticker on to sell it as a premium deck, but if you are going to scam people at least have the decency to use to better quality printer.

Going off the title of this thread, is he selling any other Limited Edition decks that look sketchy?

I couldn't really tell until I looked at the decks side by side, so I'm not sure about other listings from the seller.
The celo was just suspicious, the seal was the deciding factor.

[splice42]

The seal really does look fake to me. I can see at least one perfectly good reason the seller is willing to offer a refund: if he's asking for the deck back, under the pretense that the buyer will get his money back and the deck is perfectly legit so he wants it back to sell it again, he'll get the sealed deck back, and the buyer now has no definite proof that anything was fake. The seller will claim it's all a mistake on the buyer's part, his reputation doesn't get the hit that a definite proof of him selling fakes would, and he gets to continue his scam.

I would suggest opening it up and proving 100% that it's fake, but that's obviously not ideal given that the buyer would be out of his money and I very much doubt eBay or paypal would care about it and force a refund. I doubt they would even do anything about the seller, the fake decks would continue to be sold, people would continue to buy them, the buyer would be out of pocket, and only a few small communities would know the truth. Thorny situation to be sure.

[Don Boyer]

The seal really does look fake to me. I can see at least one perfectly good reason the seller is willing to offer a refund: if he's asking for the deck back, under the pretense that the buyer will get his money back and the deck is perfectly legit so he wants it back to sell it again, he'll get the sealed deck back, and the buyer now has no definite proof that anything was fake. The seller will claim it's all a mistake on the buyer's part, his reputation doesn't get the hit that a definite proof of him selling fakes would, and he gets to continue his scam.

I would suggest opening it up and proving 100% that it's fake, but that's obviously not ideal given that the buyer would be out of his money and I very much doubt eBay or paypal would care about it and force a refund. I doubt they would even do anything about the seller, the fake decks would continue to be sold, people would continue to buy them, the buyer would be out of pocket, and only a few small communities would know the truth. Thorny situation to be sure.

That close up image of the seal "seals" it for me.  They're fake.

The "get the goods back" theory is good.

There's no need to even open the deck.  The deck can indeed be a genuine Clip Joint - they're cheap decks, hardly worth counterfeiting in themselves.  It's the LE sticker that makes the deck worth anything.  Forging that one silly little sticker was all it took, and obviously some counterfeiter realized this and saw a chance to make money on this exploit.  It's one of the reasons I hate the creation of a "limited edition" that's practically the same product as the original, with something as simple as a sticker making the difference between LE and SE.  Even autographs aren't the best ideas - signature forgeries have been going on for centuries and now that creators charge a premium for signed decks, there's little stopping the enterprising forger from pretending to be Paul Carpenter, Dan Buck, Jackson Robinson, etc.

[splice42]

Ahh, I see. I wasn't aware of the difference of the LE deck, I thought the tuck was the same but the contents weren't. If the only difference is the seal, then yes, that really looks like a fake to me. Perhaps the buyer could contact Brad Fulton from Penguin to verify that the seal really is fake and they didn't make a run with bad quality like this. I know I once bought a booklet by Derek DelGaudio from a third party, and I received what looked like a badly photocopied, staple-bound booklet and I was very doubtful that it was genuine and not a copy. However, after contacting the author, it turned out he did sell booklets like that.

On the other hand, you won't commonly see this shoddy quality on a limited edition deck from one of the majors, so I expect that Brad would confirm that these are fake. Where the buyer goes from there though... the obvious option is the refund from the seller, I suppose, since that's essentially guaranteed. As long as people google the seller's name they should hopefully get to this thread and see what's up.

[Don Boyer]

Ahh, I see. I wasn't aware of the difference of the LE deck, I thought the tuck was the same but the contents weren't. If the only difference is the seal, then yes, that really looks like a fake to me. Perhaps the buyer could contact Brad Fulton from Penguin to verify that the seal really is fake and they didn't make a run with bad quality like this. I know I once bought a booklet by Derek DelGaudio from a third party, and I received what looked like a badly photocopied, staple-bound booklet and I was very doubtful that it was genuine and not a copy. However, after contacting the author, it turned out he did sell booklets like that.

On the other hand, you won't commonly see this shoddy quality on a limited edition deck from one of the majors, so I expect that Brad would confirm that these are fake. Where the buyer goes from there though... the obvious option is the refund from the seller, I suppose, since that's essentially guaranteed. As long as people google the seller's name they should hopefully get to this thread and see what's up.

No, that's a fake sticker, plain and simple.

If anything, it's the kind of thing that should be reported to eBay as fraudulent merchandise.  Sometimes they go after such things, sometimes they don't - which gives them a better track record than Kickstarter...

[CBJ]

Well, I woke up to a Facebook message that made me sick to my stomach.

I recently did a trade with Aether member phantom1412
As part of the trade to her, I sent her an Ultragaff deck.  I purchased a brick of them from rareangpow a couple of years back.
When I won the ebay auction, I should have known something was up... I won the brick for $121

Anyway, back to the message this morning.  This is the proof you guys have been waiting for...


From phantom1412
"Hello, do you remember where did you get the ultragaff you traded with me? I just opened the deck today and i think its a fake.

I have another ultragaff deck of my own and i compared them.





The cards inside is not uspcc cards.

From the look only, there is not much difference, but the feeling and handling of the cards are weird.





And i found this at the bottom of the box.





The bottom box is surely fake.

Ellusionist Magic Heyond Reliep"


I immediately went and checked the 3 I have left.  The one in my collection I bought from Ellusionist and it has the correct spelling, the other 2 are fake.
This makes me sick.  I have traded/sold 10 of these to other people over the last 2 years.

This is the first real proof I've seen that there are fake decks out there. 
So, take it from me... if the price is too good to be true, there's most likely as issue.


CBJ