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Vintage - Antique Meanings

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Vintage - Antique Meanings
« on: December 24, 2013, 07:15:26 PM »
 

52plusjoker

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I noticed a lot of chatter quite a while ago about the meaning of Vintage and Antique when it comes to playing cards. This is a toughie. I think we have decided for The Cellar of Fine Vintages, that 20 years or older makes sense. Antique means different things to different people but no one will argue that it's antique if it is over 100 years old. That leaves a long era for Vintage - from 20 to 80 years since production.

Then there is collectible. I look at collectible as anything from Antique to this morning - and if it is newer rather than older it has some features that distinguish it from the norm, the standard, the mundane.

Now I have another problem - she who must be obeyed came in, asked what I was doing, and when I explained she said categorically that Vintage was 30 years old, at least. Oh well, no peace tonight in the Dawson household.

In the final analysis, like beauty, Vintage is in the eye of the beholder! I think we'll stay with 20 for this Board.

Comments?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 07:16:55 PM by 52plusjoker »
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Re: Vintage - Antique Meanings
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2013, 09:52:28 PM »
 

speedyy400

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Cards that are older than I; that makes choosing what I can post in this category easy enough to distinguish :D
 

Re: Vintage - Antique Meanings
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2013, 02:36:22 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Cards that are older than I; that makes choosing what I can post in this category easy enough to distinguish :D

Ah, but the nature of that category will be more fluid than simply basing it on your age.  For example, when I was born in 1967, a deck from 1947 would be the youngest thing you could call vintage at that point, and only barely at that.  But today, in 2013, decks as new as 1993 are thought of as vintage - many vintage decks now will have been manufactured during my lifetime, not just before.

The line for both vintage and antique is fluid, like a river, forever flowing in the direction of time.  What was once new becomes vintage, and eventually is antique.  The standard can be a little arbitrary, but you have to have a point somewhere that describes these things.  This ain't like eBay, where the word "vintage" is as overused as the word "the".

There would also be some less-fluid descriptions of when a deck was made - for example, I often think of the 1960s and 1970s as a "golden age" of playing cards due to how they were manufactured at the time.  It could be argued that at no time before or since were cards as well made, because of the period being a nexus between modern manufacturing quality and old-school techniques.  Others might call that more of a "silver age" or something, but it's an era in time that is fixed and not fluid, like the definitions of "vintage" and "antique".
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Re: Vintage - Antique Meanings
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2013, 01:48:02 PM »
 

jupiter3

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In-My-Own-Not-At-All-Humble-Opinion, I must agree with Don.  Twenty years old doesn't seem "vintage" to me.  Being more than half way to "antique" myself, I feel that there have been too many decks produced (and still available) between my birth and 1993 to consider them vintage.  Oh right, that belongs to the rare definition.  But many of the decks produced between my birth and 1993 are not worth collecting due to lack of any artistic value.  Oh right, that belongs to the cr@p definition.  I have always thought of vintage decks as having some sort of intrinsic value, historic/artistic/political...  I guess I just have to wrap my head around the fact that card decks can be both vintage and cr@p, and that I am quite vintage myself and full of ....   :)

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Re: Vintage - Antique Meanings
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2013, 03:11:07 PM »
 

52plusjoker

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Good points here! We need more comments from viewers. Wish there was a black and white answer.
Tom Dawson
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Re: Vintage - Antique Meanings
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2013, 01:03:49 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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In-My-Own-Not-At-All-Humble-Opinion, I must agree with Don.  Twenty years old doesn't seem "vintage" to me.  Being more than half way to "antique" myself, I feel that there have been too many decks produced (and still available) between my birth and 1993 to consider them vintage.  Oh right, that belongs to the rare definition.  But many of the decks produced between my birth and 1993 are not worth collecting due to lack of any artistic value.  Oh right, that belongs to the cr@p definition.  I have always thought of vintage decks as having some sort of intrinsic value, historic/artistic/political...  I guess I just have to wrap my head around the fact that card decks can be both vintage and cr@p, and that I am quite vintage myself and full of ....   :)

You may be overgeneralizing a little bit here.

There's two kinds of rare in the card collecting world.  There's "naturally rare", where you have a piece of ephemera that was never meant to last, so most of the large or largish quantities of them were worn out or otherwise destroyed, leaving only a few examples.  It would also cover cases where the product was intended to be made in large quantities, but for whatever reasons the production was cut short.  The best example of the latter would be the Bicycle Victory Series of 1918.  A good example of the former would be something like the first Bicycle Old Fan Back decks from 1885, or a hundred-year-old pack of Steamboats #999.

Then there's "artificially rare", where a deck was made in limited quantities with purposeful intent from the beginning.  They were created to be rare in the first place.  To a modern deck collector, this may be a big deal - many modern deck collectors seek out the rare and the limited, some never open them, just looking at them on a shelf.  To a vintage collector, I could see where that might generate a shrug, particularly if the deck wasn't even all that good to start with in terms of design.  There's no shortage of examples of these - most Kickstarter decks, rare decks produced by modern deck design companies like The Blue Crown, Ellusionist, Dan and Dave, David Blaine, Theory11 and so on.

The way a deck handles, too, is a factor that vintage/antique deck collectors don't often take into consideration.  No one expects a 100-year-old deck of playing cards to handle like a dream, even if it was still sealed in its box until the current owner broke the seal.  A pack of Jerry's Nuggets may handle like silk (I wouldn't know, I don't own a pack), but to many people, even the magicians who popularized them, they knew they weren't terribly attractive but bought them anyway because they were cheap and handled well.  But one man's "cr@p" (go ahead, you can say "crap", our brains won't explode!) could be another man's treasure.  I've seen some terribly unattractive decks get snatched up very quickly by people spouting their praises and declaring them the best-looking things they've ever seen.

Vintage or antique, as definitions, are strictly indicators of age - not of quality, relevance, beauty or any other factor.  As in any hobby, collecting hobbies in particular, it takes all kinds of people liking all kinds of products in your desired category of collecting, where everyone shares the category in common, but they then branch out into handfuls of sub-categories that you either love, hate or are indifferent towards.  Something can indeed be vintage and utterly repellent, at least to you, but odds are, someone out there will think they're fantastic for some reason or another.  For example, I don't care how old a deck is, I'm not a fan of tobacciana - I've turned down many decks that were created at the behest of or as advertising for a tobacco company.  Same applies for alcohol - the JAQK Wineries decks are eye-catching, but I'm not fond of promoting alcohol.  And as much as I like Steamboats and recognize them as historical artifacts, I'm not fond of the packs that have the racist jokers in them - it's just how I am; others can collect them and it's more of a non-issue to them.  There's countless classic examples of decks, new, vintage or antique, that fall into these categories, and some of them are quite gorgeous - but to me, I wouldn't pay them a second thought.  Another example would be people who MUST COLLECT ANY BICYCLE DECK, regardless of how attractive or coyote ugly it happens to be.  There are collectors who even acknowledge that some of those decks are terribly designed or downright ugly, but they still must have it because it's Bicycle-branded.

It's strictly up to the collector's individual tastes and preferences.

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Re: Vintage - Antique Meanings
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2013, 08:47:19 AM »
 

52plusjoker

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Wish I could type as fast as you obviously can!

Let's start with the view that every deck is collectible.  Then how do we categorize them? Age - new, modern, vintage, antique. Or desirability - tougher as you point out one man's treasure is another man's poison, but try quality of production, beauty of design, feel and handling, packaging. Or maybe rarity. Or maybe value?

Wish I knew! Personally we collect by maker in some instances, by continent (USA, Canadian), by beauty (mainly old European), by category (eg transformation, sports and entertainment), by bargain, ie if a valuable deck is a bargain we'll scoop it up even if it doesn't fit but it likely hits the trader box.

So, no answer that fits all. But as Jupiter says we should try for some standards and consistency in condition and rarity
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Re: Vintage - Antique Meanings
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2013, 09:21:03 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Wish I could type as fast as you obviously can!

Let's start with the view that every deck is collectible.  Then how do we categorize them? Age - new, modern, vintage, antique. Or desirability - tougher as you point out one man's treasure is another man's poison, but try quality of production, beauty of design, feel and handling, packaging. Or maybe rarity. Or maybe value?

Wish I knew! Personally we collect by maker in some instances, by continent (USA, Canadian), by beauty (mainly old European), by category (eg transformation, sports and entertainment), by bargain, ie if a valuable deck is a bargain we'll scoop it up even if it doesn't fit but it likely hits the trader box.

So, no answer that fits all. But as Jupiter says we should try for some standards and consistency in condition and rarity

I didn't even notice when I wrote my 12,000th post earlier today, so yeah - I type fast and often!

Categorizing by facts is the easiest way to go.  They're irrefutable.
  • Age
  • Manufacturer (pretty easy for most of these guys - USPC!)
  • Designer - individual or company (or in cases of "hired guns", individual as subcategory of company)
  • Brand name
  • Stock
  • Finish
  • Level of customization - though that can be tricky to sort out.
  • Category

But the thing of it is, all we're working on here is divisions in the descriptor of Age.  We can mess with the other categories on a new topic!  :))

I suggested 20 years old for Vintage, you suggested 100 years old for antique:

  • Antique - decks at least 100 years old
  • Vintage - decks at least 20 years old, but less than 100 years old
  • Modern - decks less than 20 years old
With "age" classified as date of manufacture.

I chose 20 years because that's a common definition, and it's the one used for collectible automobiles.  If we consider the modern age of collectible cards as having started with the Bicycle Black Tiger by Ellusionist in 2007, then the earliest a modern deck would land on the vintage list would be 2027, about thirteen years and two days from now.  To me, this seems like a good cut-off point.

As far as what's considered antique, I'm not so sure I'd wait as long as 100 years old.  I might even argue that 80 years is enough to be considered antique.  At present, that would classify any deck made on or before 1933 (or 1934, in two more days) as being antique.  Younger still feels like vintage, but older - yeah, I'd call that antique, I think.  I could even argue that 70 years (anything older than 1943/44) could be a good cut-off.  But anything younger, definitely not antique yet.

What do you (AND THE REST OF YOU FOLKS, HINT, HINT) think of these definitions?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 09:28:07 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Vintage - Antique Meanings
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2013, 01:10:43 PM »
 

jupiter3

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It's strictly up to the collector's individual tastes and preferences.

It is truely wonderful that we have so many collectors that collect for so many different reasons.  Diversity is good! 

Don, congrats on your 12K posts ! 

Happy new year to all.

Jim
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Re: Vintage - Antique Meanings
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2014, 04:23:42 PM »
 

Lee Asher

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If we consider the modern age of collectible cards as having started with the Bicycle Black Tiger by Ellusionist in 2007, then the earliest a modern deck would land on the vintage list would be 2027, about thirteen years and two days from now.  To me, this seems like a good cut-off point.

Not trying to nit pick, but I think it was 2004, not 2007. Plus, it doesn't make much of a difference in the context of this discussion.
 

Re: Vintage - Antique Meanings
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2014, 05:27:51 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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If we consider the modern age of collectible cards as having started with the Bicycle Black Tiger by Ellusionist in 2007, then the earliest a modern deck would land on the vintage list would be 2027, about thirteen years and two days from now.  To me, this seems like a good cut-off point.

Not trying to nit pick, but I think it was 2004, not 2007. Plus, it doesn't make much of a difference in the context of this discussion.

You probably are right.  What are your thoughts on a good cut-off age for modern, vintage and antique?
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Re: Vintage - Antique Meanings
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2014, 07:41:00 PM »
 

Leif

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 This sound like a good idea. 
Antique - decks at least 100 years old
Vintage - decks at least 20 years old, but less than 100 years old
Modern - decks less than 20 years old

I just have a question. Would it make no sense at all to go by printing method used? Offset printing began in 1904 in USA. I don't know if cards were printed in an offset press by 1910, but I guess you people would know?

Antique - Before offset printing.
Vintage - After offset printing, Before 2004 (Black tiger).
Modern - After 2004.

Would this make sense?

I understand that sometime down the line this must change, but I believe that change is a few years away, at least for the antique category.
 

Re: Vintage - Antique Meanings
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2014, 09:27:52 PM »
 

jmrock

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I noticed a lot of chatter quite a while ago about the meaning of Vintage and Antique when it comes to playing cards. This is a toughie. I think we have decided for The Cellar of Fine Vintages, that 20 years or older makes sense. Antique means different things to different people but no one will argue that it's antique if it is over 100 years old. That leaves a long era for Vintage - from 20 to 80 years since production.

Then there is collectible. I look at collectible as anything from Antique to this morning - and if it is newer rather than older it has some features that distinguish it from the norm, the standard, the mundane.

Agreed… IMHO, I'm not sure the printing method (Leif) matters as much as the age of deck… It seems that everyone agrees on the above… Sounds good to me as well...
 

Re: Vintage - Antique Meanings
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2014, 09:55:38 PM »
 

10ofclubs

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This sound like a good idea. 
Antique - decks at least 100 years old
Vintage - decks at least 20 years old, but less than 100 years old
Modern - decks less than 20 years old

I just have a question. Would it make no sense at all to go by printing method used? Offset printing began in 1904 in USA. I don't know if cards were printed in an offset press by 1910, but I guess you people would know?

Antique - Before offset printing.
Vintage - After offset printing, Before 2004 (Black tiger).
Modern - After 2004.

Would this make sense?

I understand that sometime down the line this must change, but I believe that change is a few years away, at least for the antique category.

A fair idea but you wouldn't consider a deck made in 2002 or 2003 to be vintage would you?
 

Re: Vintage - Antique Meanings
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2014, 07:27:29 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I think the offset-printing concept is a completely separate one from the age of a deck.

Unless anyone can think of a good reason to do otherwise, the consensus seems to be:

Antique: 100 years old minimum
Vintage: at least 20, up to 100 years old
Modern: less than 20 years old.

Agreed?
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Re: Vintage - Antique Meanings
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2014, 02:31:20 PM »
 

52plusjoker

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Like others I have some hesitancy about Vintage covering such a long span. On the other hand it will be good to have guidelines - and I think that's what they should be. For example, if posting about antique USPC brand Tourist #155, which ran from 1886 to 1931, I'd lump them all as Antique.
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Re: Vintage - Antique Meanings
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2014, 04:27:06 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Like others I have some hesitancy about Vintage covering such a long span. On the other hand it will be good to have guidelines - and I think that's what they should be. For example, if posting about antique USPC brand Tourist #155, which ran from 1886 to 1931, I'd lump them all as Antique.

I did propose shortening Vintage to cover only from 20 to 70 or 80 years old.  It seems fine to me, 'cause seriously, if someone handed me something from the '20s or '30s into the WW2 years, I'd call it antique.
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Re: Vintage - Antique Meanings
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2014, 05:13:15 PM »
 

Robert Adams

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I'm failing to see the need to define it exactly. It has never been decided for furniture, jewelry or anything else.

In fact, I think that one wouldn't want to define it exactly. Whilst useful in casual conversation I'm not sure that these are useful terms for record keeping because as time passes the actual category dates move, so any reference to a deck by category without actual manufacturing date will become obsolete. If you want to publish something that refers to these categories feel free to define it yourself and if it is for the the purpose of one's own records then you are achieving very little.

If the administrators want to start an 'Antique' section of the forum perhaps they would consider a 'pre-1900's' or 'pre-1920' section instead. :)
 

Re: Vintage - Antique Meanings
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2014, 06:47:54 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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I'm failing to see the need to define it exactly. It has never been decided for furniture, jewelry or anything else.

In fact, I think that one wouldn't want to define it exactly. Whilst useful in casual conversation I'm not sure that these are useful terms for record keeping because as time passes the actual category dates move, so any reference to a deck by category without actual manufacturing date will become obsolete. If you want to publish something that refers to these categories feel free to define it yourself and if it is for the the purpose of one's own records then you are achieving very little.

If the administrators want to start an 'Antique' section of the forum perhaps they would consider a 'pre-1900's' or 'pre-1920' section instead. :)

It's more for settling on what decks end up on the Vintage board and what decks go in the Plethora.
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Re: Vintage - Antique Meanings
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2014, 12:12:45 PM »
 

Pip Nosher

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My vote:

Antique = 80+ Years
Vintage = 20 - 79 Years
New = Less than 19 Years

I endorse Don's notion of shortening Vintage, and also Tom's point about the necessity of keeping the definitions somewhat fluid for cards and topics that may overlap those benchmarks and suggest an occasional blurring of the lines.

I think all collectors will provide their own filters within those broad categories ("I only collect pre-offset cards" or "I go nuts for anything with the 'Bicycle' brand"), but for the purposes of organizing the forum, I think some general and generally agreed upon standards are appropriate.
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Re: Vintage - Antique Meanings
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2014, 01:21:55 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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My vote:

Antique = 80+ Years
Vintage = 20 - 79 Years
New = Less than 19 Years

I endorse Don's notion of shortening Vintage, and also Tom's point about the necessity of keeping the definitions somewhat fluid for cards and topics that may overlap those benchmarks and suggest an occasional blurring of the lines.

I think all collectors will provide their own filters within those broad categories ("I only collect pre-offset cards" or "I go nuts for anything with the 'Bicycle' brand"), but for the purposes of organizing the forum, I think some general and generally agreed upon standards are appropriate.

I think a good way to think of it is this:

New, at less than 20 years, would all be from the same generation, roughly speaking - generations are thought to run for about two decades.  The current custom deck cycle we're experiencing, which arguably started with the Bicycle Black Tiger deck by Ellusionist, is nearly half way through that period.

Vintage, at 20 to less than 80 years, would be thought of covering one person's entire life span, assuming a death by natural causes and a healthy life.

Antique, at 80 years or older, would be a deck that was made long enough ago that it predates the majority of people alive today.  Most if not all collectors alive today did not witness the original release of such a deck.

Again, for the purposes of this board, it's simply a way of keeping things organized.  Eventually there will be blurring of the lines - and I wholeheartedly encourage that.

At the time that Tom bought the forum, the majority of collectors here were not 52+J members, nor were they vintage or antique collectors, preferring to stick with the newer decks, mostly custom but to a lesser degree standard as well (you have to admit, it's a bit less expensive, most of the time)!  The membership of 52+J was coming from the opposite end of the spectrum - collectors who were more interested in vintage and antique decks, though taking tiny footsteps toward interest in modern custom playing card designs.

As the forum and the club both grow, each learning more about the other group's interests, those lines will certainly blur - in fact, they already are.  Prior to meeting Tom, I knew practically nothing of vintage decks and considered them and expensive and costly venture, too far out of my personal experience.  Now I'm a member, and as time goes on, more club members are coming from the ranks of the forum, taking an interest in the older decks, while the more experienced members of 52+J are seeing a whole new world of playing cards being created practically before their eyes, courtesy of the many designers and artists who are part of our ranks and interested in sharing their work with us.

Given enough time, there will be no line remaining!  There will always be new decks and older decks, but the membership will become closer to a unified group, interested in all varieties of playing cards, everyone having broadened their interests by being exposed to the other side of the coin!

But we're not into tarot decks - that's for THOSE people over there...  (kidding!)
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Re: Vintage - Antique Meanings
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2014, 01:00:52 PM »
 

Pip Nosher

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Well said, Don, from beginning to end.
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Re: Vintage - Antique Meanings
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2014, 02:40:10 PM »
 

athomas16

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To paraphrase Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, "I know an antique deck when I see it."

; )
 

Re: Vintage - Antique Meanings
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2014, 11:21:45 PM »
 

TheBadJoker

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Tom;  Shame on you.  Don't you know the correct answer by now is "Yes Dear"?
 

Re: Vintage - Antique Meanings
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2014, 12:23:16 PM »
 

musical_racket

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We also have to keep in perspective that the term "Vintage" relates to the original manufacture of a particular item. Meaning a vintage Bicycle deck will vary in age range than a vintage Ellusionist deck. Because the word vintage actually relates to wine and is used to describe when he wines were made instead of a general term for older than usual. For example, vintage computers are at earliest 10 years because of how quickly that they have evolved compared to playing cards.

I remember that a few years ago I visited the Antiques Roadshow event in El Paso. They explained that the term Antique is anything that is older than 50 years. So remember everyone, we all own quite a bit of antique dirt in our yards! I know what you are thinking, and I agree that it seems like this is too soon and vague to easily describe cards.

Given that these terms are all in perspective of the overall picture, I would say that the dates that we have all discussed already would be where I would adequately describe my cards.
If you like playing cards.....Awesome!