Explore Playing Cards (KS)

[cardazine]

Relaunch campaign is now LIVE on Kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2895614/explore-deck-sit-back-play-imagine

[Rob Wright]

Explore Playing Cards
Now Live

 
Project by
Harris Soetikno
Melbourne, AU
USPC Printing-$20,000 AUD goal, $22 AUD($20 US?) +$12 AUD shipping outside AU/USA for 1, $40 AUD($36 US?) +$15 AUD shipping outside AU/USA for 2.

Love travelling? EXPLORE the world in a deck of playing cards featuring 52 uniquely illustrated cities and historic sites.

[Yashi]

I like these and wanted to get two but it's a really pricey deck.

[Don Boyer]

The deck is funding now on Kickstarter.

Here is the link: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2895614/explore-playing-cards-printed-by-uspcc

The deck looks beautiful.

The card images are a mix of framed and frameless faces.  Pick one style and stick with it.

You need a better, sharper image of the card back and the other sides of the box.

But the thing that could absolutely sink this project is the price.  The US dollar and Australian dollar tends to trade at very close to 1:1, even more so than does the Canadian dollar.  $20 for an EARLY BIRD of a single deck is way too high for even the regular price.  Setting the regular price at $22 will severely curtail your potential backer pool.  Granted, you can ship within Australia and the US without charging extra, but that's still 20 bucks for a single deck.  People balked when $15 started becoming common, and that was less than a year ago.  The only new decks I see selling in that price range are the multi-artist collaborations that are collected more for their value as art than their value as playing cards.  I imagine your Asian and European customers won't be happy - an extra $12 for shipping, bringing the total to $32 for an early bird and $34 for those not fast enough.  You'd be amazed at the volume of sales generated by Asian customers among all the playing card companies and designers - as a culture, they love to play cards.

The heavy chain attached to that anchor would be your $20,000 goal.  Sure it's possible to hit it, but why so high for a single deck of cards?  We know deck projects can be done for much less - even half that much would be considered an adequate amount.  Is it because you're paying so much for international shipping of the decks bound for Australia?  Seriously, that sounds like a lot - more like a 5,000-deck run or maybe even a 7,500-deck run rather than a 2,500-deck run.

MOD NOTE: this topic and the first topic shown here were originally posted to the topic for this deck in the Design/Dev board.

[Rob Wright]

I posted it to Plethora because it's no longer in D&D. It's a live project now. That's what we usually do?

[cardazine]

Hey guys!

Thanks for checking out EXPLORE, be it here at Discourse or on the Kickstarter page itself!

I like these and wanted to get two but it's a really pricey deck.

But the thing that could absolutely sink this project is the price.  The US dollar and Australian dollar tends to trade at very close to 1:1, even more so than does the Canadian dollar.  $20 for an EARLY BIRD of a single deck is way too high for even the regular price.  Setting the regular price at $22 will severely curtail your potential backer pool.  Granted, you can ship within Australia and the US without charging extra, but that's still 20 bucks for a single deck.  People balked when $15 started becoming common, and that was less than a year ago.  The only new decks I see selling in that price range are the multi-artist collaborations that are collected more for their value as art than their value as playing cards.  I imagine your Asian and European customers won't be happy - an extra $12 for shipping, bringing the total to $32 for an early bird and $34 for those not fast enough.  You'd be amazed at the volume of sales generated by Asian customers among all the playing card companies and designers - as a culture, they love to play cards.

The heavy chain attached to that anchor would be your $20,000 goal.  Sure it's possible to hit it, but why so high for a single deck of cards?  We know deck projects can be done for much less - even half that much would be considered an adequate amount.  Is it because you're paying so much for international shipping of the decks bound for Australia?  Seriously, that sounds like a lot - more like a 5,000-deck run or maybe even a 7,500-deck run rather than a 2,500-deck run.

MOD NOTE: this topic and the first topic shown here were originally posted to the topic for this deck in the Design/Dev board.

Yes, I've been approached by a number of people expressing concerns and thoughts on the high price of the deck and the high funding goal. The reason why, it's set so high is because of the costs of individually designing the cards. The design work is being contracted. I'm not sure how many hours do decks like the Feds or Shane Tyree's cards take to produce, but for EXPLORE, I'm projecting the total design hours itself to reach 250+ hours. And, looking at the progress of the hours on the project, the total of hours will go there. I've thought about cutting the costs by including less things in some of the cards, but that would compromise the quality I want for the deck.

The deck looks beautiful.

The card images are a mix of framed and frameless faces.  Pick one style and stick with it.

You need a better, sharper image of the card back and the other sides of the box.

@Don: I'm taking the feedback you initially gave on the D/D section and we are making them borderless. I've overlooked updating some of the Kickstarter images but will look at them immediately and upload the tuck box die for the back and other sides of the box.

Thanks again everyone for your encouraging words and support!

-Harris

[Don Boyer]

I posted it to Plethora because it's no longer in D&D. It's a live project now. That's what we usually do?

Your post was fine.  The designer was still posting to the old D&D topic.  If you'll look at the first post, it's no longer yours - yours was bumped to second.

Cardazine: I understand that you've got these design-related costs, but it puts you at a severe competitive disadvantage.  It leaves you with a "Catch-22" situation - you need to raise money to pay for the deck, but the deck is expensive, resulting in fewer sales and less income, putting the project's success in jeopardy.  Your first day out, you've got just shy of 4.5% of your goal - that's a slow pace.

If this campaign doesn't succeed, retool the campaign.  Do some additional math.  Calculate a way to bring the price point down to at least $15 a deck if not less.  You've already got one base covered, as it appears that you have a US distributor helping with the North American market - consider a discounted rate for shipping to Canada, as it may give you more Canadian customers.  One way or another, find ways to sell this deck at a lower cost.  Once that's been sorted, then you relaunch, with a well-organized campaign and the correct art in place from the moment you launch. 

[Sher143]

Yeah, I wanted to pledge for this deck but hesitated because of the price.

[AtomSmash]

It's such a shame because I love this deck and would definitely back it but the price puts me off hugely. Anyway, I wish you good luck with the project - I hope you get funded!

[jmrock]

Have to tell you… approximately $18 including shipping for a deck is on the higher side, but not outrageous given the quality and design of the deck… I do, however, wish Harris would be a bit more honest regarding the funds being asked for… Falling in line with what most decks cost on kickstarter would most probably yield an amount that far exceeds the $20,000 goal… If the decks sold for $10-$15 with shipping for example and the decks sell out, they're going to be sold in the aftermarket for double, triple, or more for that matter… Harris, you're looking to turn a profit  (rather than everyone that picks up the decks for less) and honesty would be your best policy… You're raising such an amount to pay a designer? It's all just too a little too over the top… You would make more $ if you were charging less… Should've consulted with Don or others regarding pricing prior to having launched… Regardless, good luck… Hope to see this deck roll through the presses of USPCC, which is not something I say often when it comes to kickstarter decks…

With regard to the actual deck, I think it looks great… The only thing I'm not crazy about is either of the Jokers… Dreadful actually… Harris, no offense, but I don't need to see a caricature of you on such a nicely designed deck of cards, and I certainly don't need a caricature of Joe Card Collector just because he paid $600 to have himself placed on the deck… Given it's a travel themed deck, continue the artwork with nice lines and nicely designed Jokers (IMHO)… However, all in all, I think they look great - The back design is wonderful and the clean lines throughout the rest of the deck are really nice as well… Please reconsider the Joker situation… I am not alone regarding my feelings about the Jokers…

[cardazine]

Have to tell you… approximately $18 including shipping for a deck is on the higher side, but not outrageous given the quality and design of the deck… I do, however, wish Harris would be a bit more honest regarding the funds being asked for… Falling in line with what most decks cost on kickstarter would most probably yield an amount that far exceeds the $20,000 goal… If the decks sold for $10-$15 with shipping for example and the decks sell out, they're going to be sold in the aftermarket for double, triple, or more for that matter… Harris, you're looking to turn a profit  (rather than everyone that picks up the decks for less) and honesty would be your best policy… You're raising such an amount to pay a designer? It's all just too a little too over the top… You would make more $ if you were charging less… Should've consulted with Don or others regarding pricing prior to having launched… Regardless, good luck… Hope to see this deck roll through the presses of USPCC, which is not something I say often when it comes to kickstarter decks…

With regard to the actual deck, I think it looks great… The only thing I'm not crazy about is either of the Jokers… Dreadful actually… Harris, no offense, but I don't need to see a caricature of you on such a nicely designed deck of cards, and I certainly don't need a caricature of Joe Card Collector just because he paid $600 to have himself placed on the deck… Given it's a travel themed deck, continue the artwork with nice lines and nicely designed Jokers (IMHO)… However, all in all, I think they look great - The back design is wonderful and the clean lines throughout the rest of the deck are really nice as well… Please reconsider the Joker situation… I am not alone regarding my feelings about the Jokers…

Hi jmrock,

Glad that you like the design of the playing cards! Good thoughts about the Joker, I have some ideas to turn them into cities rather than having faces, after all that's what we did with the J, Q and Ks.

In regards to the comments of the funding goal, really good thoughts and probably, I'd think the same too if I were on the other side of the project, as a potential backer looking at 1 project that is just looking expensive and really high funding goal. However, as I mentioned previously, the projected design hours is 250+ hours and we're getting really close to that mark. I'm not sure if this is the cause of confusion but it definitely was for one of the project backers. The deck features 52 cities, each uniquely illustrated. It increases in complexity from 2 being the least and Aces being the most, but each would contain the same amount of details per building like now seen in all the court cards.

If you wish to look at some sample of the number cards, I have uploaded the draft I currently have for the 2s and maybe, that might clear things out. Thanks so much for the feedback! I greatly appreciate them.

-Harris

[jmrock]

No one's questioning the amount of time that was put into the deck… However, you're trying to correlate the amount of time spent designing to the high price… Again, I'm not mad at you for trying to make a $, but let's call a spade a spade I'm sure other exemplary designers spent far more time designing their decks, but did not feel that should translate to collectors paying more for the decks (not all the time anyway)...

[BiggerDee]

Although the design isn't bad, it really doesn't make me want to go out and grab the deck.

That being said, I wonder if the price is intended to raise funds to pay the designer after the fact. What I mean by that is that if he/she is putting 50+ hours into the deck, they will still want to get paid even if the deck isn't funded. That's a risky proposition as opposed to giving the designer a percentage of sales if they are funded in lieu of a straight out payment for time. It's making the designer an investor in the deck. If that were possible, then the pricing could be lowered which would attract more backers, and take the burden of desing payment off of the creator. As it is, being an ok deck in my eyes, the thing that will prevent me from backing it is the price. Two decks for $24, I'd be in just to add another design to my collection. One at $22, no chance. Just my thoughts.

[PurpleIce]

I think the main "problems" of these decks have already been said.

I imagine your Asian and European customers won't be happy - an extra $12 for shipping, bringing the total to $32 for an early bird and $34 for those not fast enough.  You'd be amazed at the volume of sales generated by Asian customers among all the playing card companies and designers - as a culture, they love to play cards.

Not Happy. Agree.

Please reconsider the Joker situation… I am not alone regarding my feelings about the Jokers…

Not Alone. Agree.

However, as I mentioned previously, the projected design hours is 250+ hours and we're getting really close to that mark. I'm not sure if this is the cause of confusion but it definitely was for one of the project backers. The deck features 52 cities, each uniquely illustrated. It increases in complexity from 2 being the least and Aces being the most, but each would contain the same amount of details per building like now seen in all the court cards.

Though i have not designed any card decks, i have done my fair bit of designing. I have designed interiors, graphics and products. Joined competitions in my early days and handled projects at a later stage. I'm saying all these to let u know that i understand what it means to put a well deserved price tag to all your hard work and man-hours.

I do not think anybody is doubting the long hours being put into this deck, but i believe what Don and jmrock is trying to say is that consumers might not necessarily agree with the price tag you are putting on the deck. Your deck may be priceless to you but it is only worth as much in the real world as what people are willing to pay for it. Sure, there will be people who will pledge every deck available in KS, and there will be people pledging for your deck. But i think you got to weigh the percentage of a small group of people buying at a higher price as compared to a large group buying at a more "acceptable" price. Selling at a profit of $10 a deck to 50 people will not earn you more than selling at a profit of $5 to 200 people.

Basically, i think KS is to be used as a platform to spread your works to a larger market. You risk not funding your project because you are capturing a smaller audience, and you risk losing the opportunity to have more people spreading the good word of your design works.

[Don Boyer]

Basically, i think KS is to be used as a platform to spread your works to a larger market. You risk not funding your project because you are capturing a smaller audience, and you risk losing the opportunity to have more people spreading the good word of your design works.

These words are exceptionally wise.

Everyone wants to make a profit, but it's a matter of finding the sweet spot - the price point where you're making the maximum amount of money by selling the maximum amount of product at the right profit margin.  Apple Inc. has already proved that this sweet spot isn't necessarily at the point where the product is most expensive.  The more expensive product will sell fewer units because it's more expensive - this is the reason why car dealerships sell far more Hondas and Toyotas than they do Jaguars and Lamborghinis.  That Jaguar might have a profit margin of $10,000, but if you only sell 100 nationwide, that's $1,000,000.  Take that Toyota and sell it for an order of magnitude less, the profit margin might be only 10% of the Jaguar, a mere $1,000 each, but if you're selling 10,000, you've made $10,000,000 - ten times as much as the Jaguar dealers.

It's exceptionally difficult to find that sweet spot on Kickstarter with a deck design.  You have no way to gauge what backer response will be at various price points.  But the one thing we know is that when decks are typically selling for $12-15 a pack and you drop yours out for $20, you're deck is anywhere from 33% to 40% more expensive.  Unless you can say with certainty that your design is so great the demand won't be diminished by the price (and no one can say that out of the gate), you stand to lose customers.  You could even have the better product, like Sony did in the 1980s when they sold Beta VCRs and licensed out VHS VCRs to the rest of the videotape player companies, and still lose out because the other companies are making a product that was of a reasonable, acceptable quality and charging much less for them, resulting in a greater volume of sales and more profit.  Beta died as a consumer format while VHS swept the market.

Compounding matters is that many of your customers - specifically, the kind of folks who like hanging out on these boards here - have some idea about the costs involved in making a deck of cards.  Car dealers threw hairy fits over all those websites that told people how much their profit margins actually are and what other people are paying for the same model - the informed consumer knew what it cost them and could haggle over a better price in total confidence, taking away the edge that many car dealerships used to have.  It applies to these playing cards as well.

[th4mo]

Cardazine, forget all the math and price comparisons...

I really like your project. Your deck is well designed. Above average even. But it is not an exceptional "i gotta have it now!" deck. And that's not just MY opinion...

The bottom line is, you are nowhere near funding. And if you don't fund,.. you make ZERO money. How are you going to pay yourself and your artist then?

You simply will not fund unless and until you relaunch at an acceptable price point. Sorry! 

[ivan]

Looks like Harris will be lowering the prices. From the latest backer's update:

AUD13 Single Deck EARLY BIRD (Limited to 100)
AUD15 Single Deck
AUD26 A pair of Deck EARLY BIRD (Limited to 100)
AUD175 A brick of decks

Thanks for listening Harris.

[Yashi]

Good to know he worked on the math again.

[BiggerDee]

According to the Jackson Robinson Club 808 interview from yesterday, the entire Federal 52 series took around 250 hours to design. The entire series.

That's the same amount of time that the creator for this deck is expecting this design to take, at the very least (250+ hours indicated).

Is Jackson fast, or is the designer for this single deck slow? I'm a bit baffled.

[Don Boyer]

According to the Jackson Robinson Club 808 interview from yesterday, the entire Federal 52 series took around 250 hours to design. The entire series.

That's the same amount of time that the creator for this deck is expecting this design to take, at the very least (250+ hours indicated).

Is Jackson fast, or is the designer for this single deck slow? I'm a bit baffled.

Bear in mind there were many common elements among the decks Jackson created - for example, he only created two full sets of courts for all those decks.  If Fed 52 was a single deck and nothing more, it might have run him 125-175 hours.  Certain elements of the deck are repeated, such as the backgrounds on the spot cards.

I'm going to make a wildly estimated comparison of Fed52 and this project here - please don't lynch me if it's not 100% accurate.

Jackson made 10 tucks, 10 jokers, 5 Aces of Spades and 24 court cards.  Let's say one tuck is roughly equal in workload to two custom cards - it's likely more, but I'm being optimistic in the time estimate.  Don't include the deck back - it's actually on the tuck, with minor tweaking.  That's the equivalent of 44 individual custom cards.  The spot cards require a layout format and some repetition - call that equal to five cards, and that's really an overestimate.  Now we're up to 49 unique cards.

Unlike Fed52, this deck doesn't use any repeated or simply-formatted images for the spot cards.  Instead, it has 54 unique cards, plus the tuck and back.  That's how this one deck could run into 250+ hours.

Now, one could argue about the complexity of the designs between the two and all sorts of other things, but a deck of this nature is still a LOT of work.  Few custom decks are of this level of customization.  Every single card is a unique image, not a dozen unique courts, a unique Ace of Spades and 39 spot cards with assorted matching arrangements of pips.  The only deck type I know of that would have been more complex in its customization would have been a full tarot deck, with unique art on all 78 cards.

[sr15]

Looks like Harris will be lowering the prices. From the latest backer's update:

AUD13 Single Deck EARLY BIRD (Limited to 100)
AUD15 Single Deck
AUD26 A pair of Deck EARLY BIRD (Limited to 100)
AUD175 A brick of decks

Thanks for listening Harris.

Excellent. I do like this deck and for those prices I'll probably pledge for an early bird 2 deck set. Setting them at 18 bucks initially (20 aud is about 18 usd) to around 11 bucks a deck is a much better deal.

Funny thing somewhat relevant to this topic, this article just popped up on my facebook feed:

http://www.artbusiness.com/artists-how-to-price-your-art-for-sale.html#.UtYvCh3JvU4.facebook

[Don Boyer]

Funny thing somewhat relevant to this topic, this article just popped up on my facebook feed:

http://www.artbusiness.com/artists-how-to-price-your-art-for-sale.html#.UtYvCh3JvU4.facebook

It's hard for me to take that as objective information when it's from an article written by an art appraiser on his own website...

[PurpleIce]

Looks like Harris will be lowering the prices. From the latest backer's update:

AUD13 Single Deck EARLY BIRD (Limited to 100)
AUD15 Single Deck
AUD26 A pair of Deck EARLY BIRD (Limited to 100)
AUD175 A brick of decks

Thanks for listening Harris.

I think this is listed in the "for backers only update"? Doesn't he need to make actual changes on the pledge tiers for it to work out?

And wouldn't listing it in a for backers only update make no difference in terms of trying to get new backers to come pledge when it doesn't reflect on the pledge tiers?

[sr15]

Funny thing somewhat relevant to this topic, this article just popped up on my facebook feed:

http://www.artbusiness.com/artists-how-to-price-your-art-for-sale.html#.UtYvCh3JvU4.facebook

It's hard for me to take that as objective information when it's from an article written by an art appraiser on his own website...

well it's not exactly groundbreaking economic theory. mostly just echoes what's already been said in this thread

[cardazine]

According to the Jackson Robinson Club 808 interview from yesterday, the entire Federal 52 series took around 250 hours to design. The entire series.

That's the same amount of time that the creator for this deck is expecting this design to take, at the very least (250+ hours indicated).

Is Jackson fast, or is the designer for this single deck slow? I'm a bit baffled.

Bear in mind there were many common elements among the decks Jackson created - for example, he only created two full sets of courts for all those decks.  If Fed 52 was a single deck and nothing more, it might have run him 125-175 hours.  Certain elements of the deck are repeated, such as the backgrounds on the spot cards.

I'm going to make a wildly estimated comparison of Fed52 and this project here - please don't lynch me if it's not 100% accurate.

Jackson made 10 tucks, 10 jokers, 5 Aces of Spades and 24 court cards.  Let's say one tuck is roughly equal in workload to two custom cards - it's likely more, but I'm being optimistic in the time estimate.  Don't include the deck back - it's actually on the tuck, with minor tweaking.  That's the equivalent of 44 individual custom cards.  The spot cards require a layout format and some repetition - call that equal to five cards, and that's really an overestimate.  Now we're up to 49 unique cards.

Unlike Fed52, this deck doesn't use any repeated or simply-formatted images for the spot cards.  Instead, it has 54 unique cards, plus the tuck and back.  That's how this one deck could run into 250+ hours.

Now, one could argue about the complexity of the designs between the two and all sorts of other things, but a deck of this nature is still a LOT of work.  Few custom decks are of this level of customization.  Every single card is a unique image, not a dozen unique courts, a unique Ace of Spades and 39 spot cards with assorted matching arrangements of pips.  The only deck type I know of that would have been more complex in its customization would have been a full tarot deck, with unique art on all 78 cards.

SPOT ON!

Looks like Harris will be lowering the prices. From the latest backer's update:

AUD13 Single Deck EARLY BIRD (Limited to 100)
AUD15 Single Deck
AUD26 A pair of Deck EARLY BIRD (Limited to 100)
AUD175 A brick of decks

Thanks for listening Harris.

I think this is listed in the "for backers only update"? Doesn't he need to make actual changes on the pledge tiers for it to work out?

And wouldn't listing it in a for backers only update make no difference in terms of trying to get new backers to come pledge when it doesn't reflect on the pledge tiers?

Yes and yes. I'll be releasing the changes in the reward tiers in a few hours.