Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker

[Fustar]

How about a photo of a few faces - especially the jokers (if you have them) and the Ace of Spades?  That might give us more information.

I'd say with maybe 98% certainty that this wasn't printed by USPC.  It's more like a tarot-sized card, and US Games Systems holds a near-monopoly on printed tarot decks.

I dont have the jokers. They weren't with the deck. I just noticed that the ace of spades says Whitman. That makes me feel stupid. Anyways here's a pic. Maybe now I can refine my search.

[52plusjoker]

Whitman a relatively scarce maker - 1950's- 1960's. Nice keepsake.

[Fustar]

Whitman a relatively scarce maker - 1950's- 1960's. Nice keepsake.

That's cool. I would like to find out more if I can. Can't believe I just now noticed the Whitman on the ace facepalm lol. Here's some more pics hopefully I'll find the actual deck and more info.

[Mike Ratledge]

"Old Gypsy" is Whitman, as I recall?

[magicphill]

Does anyone know when the USPCC stopped printing Aristocrat banknote cards ? I've seen decks with a blue USPCC seal and a red cellophane seal but didnt know if they were genuine

[Don Boyer]

Does anyone know when the USPCC stopped printing Aristocrat banknote cards ? I've seen decks with a blue USPCC seal and a red cellophane seal but didnt know if they were genuine

If you're referring to the recent reprint, that was a single print run and done, as far as I know.  They're easily distinguished from the originals from the marker's markings on the box as well as the Ace of Spades having an "A" for Aristocrat instead of the original "R" for Russell.

[magicphill]

Sorry what I meant was did the USPCC still print the banknotes in the late 80s early 90s. I know the 2011 reprint had a gold seal but these have the blue seal

[Don Boyer]

Sorry what I meant was did the USPCC still print the banknotes in the late 80s early 90s. I know the 2011 reprint had a gold seal but these have the blue seal

This site states they were made until the early 1980s:
http://www.jamesbondlifestyle.com/product/aristocrat-727-banknote-playing-cards

Jim Knapp says pretty much the same thing, adding it was only the consumer model that was discontinued and the brand continued to be used for casino decks.
http://www.jimknapp.com/Cards/Non-Bicycle.htm

The World of Playing Cards has nothing directly to add regarding the deck's end date, but they make mention of two works by Rod Starling: his book The Art and Pleasures of Playing Cards and an article from the Sept. 2011 issue of CtD called "American Bank Note Pictorials."  They could help, and if you don't have that issue handy, I'm sure that "Ask Alexander" does!
http://www.wopc.co.uk/usa/american-bank-note-company.html

I couldn't find much else, but it was only a cursory web search from Google.

[Cryptocard27]

I won an antique National price-list in December on eBay :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/National-Playing-Cards-catalog-page-chromolithograph-antique-original-1893-/131375867081?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=vyZvRTSBLDuznM%252FaD6I8z9vNIwo%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

I paid this list $26 but do you think that it could have a little more value for a possible resale or exchange please ?
I received that last week and the list is in excellent condition without any default.

[jopo]

Hi Tom,

I've just registered here and am trying to find my way around the forum. Don't know if this is the right spot or way to ask a question, but here's one that I have had since August 2012, when I could add the Hustling Joe deck to our collection. Why do all the Jacks in that deck have a feather on their hat? Does this have a special meaning or what's the meaning of this feather in general. In regular Anglo-American patterned decks the Jack of Hearts sometimes holds a feather.
All the best to you and Judy,

Joop Muller

What do you want to find out about an old vintage card or deck? Whatever your question, this is the place to find the answers to what’s puzzling you. We have lined up several of the vintage/antique collectors from 52 Plus Joker to specifically respond to your questions about items that you’ve seen, have heard about or have stashed away in your collections.

We learned about older playing cards by talking to people who knew more than us. In our case we were lucky - we found a couple of local collectors who knew a lot more than we did. They could often answer us easily, and if they didn’t know, could point us in the right direction. They also suggested books we should have and convinced us that research was an integral part of collecting. Slowly our knowledge grew. Eventually the point came when we were being asked more than we were asking! This is true for many members of 52 Plus joker and in this instant communication age makes the availability of expert information for you close at hand and easy to obtain.

We look forward to your specific questions. We, and other members of 52+J, will monitor this post daily and try to ensure we get the right expert to the card table to take our best shot at your answer.

Judy & Tom Dawson

[52plusjoker]

Hi Joop
I apologize - I missed this post as was in Ireland and didn't see it on return. I do not know the answer and I guess nobody else does as you've had no response. It would be great if you get the chance to post a few of your treasures for all to see.
Tom

[Elite Card Displays]

Got an Uncle Sam Deck With a partial 2 cent stamp. any thoughts on dating it?

[Don Boyer]

Got an Uncle Sam Deck With a partial 2 cent stamp. any thoughts on dating it?

Well the tax on cards was two cents only from 1894 to 1917, but the stamps continued to be used for many years later, with overprints that indicated the actual tax paid.  The latest that I know of that these stamps were in use was 1924, being used interchangeably with the "Class A" tax stamps.  We'd need some clear images of the stamp itself to see if enough of it remains to identify a ballpark range for when it was canceled.  If not enough of the stamp remains, using stamps to date the deck will leave you with the range 1894-1924 - a big range.

Standard Playing Card Company was founded in 1890 but was USPC-owned by 1894, when the tax went into effect.  They continued to use the company name into 1930, after which it was merged into Consolidated-Dougherty - a few years after 2-cents stamps were out of circulation.  There's a chance that the Ace of Spades might show a USPC date code we could use to narrow the deck's age.  If you can get a sharp picture of that, it would help.  Images of some of the court cards would help as well, as there were distinctive changes to the designs used by USPC over the years.

[Elite Card Displays]

The Tax stamp is very damaged it has both black "canceled" on it and some red numbers.  Here is the Ace of spades,  Any help would be appreciated

Thanks
Ben

[Don Boyer]

The Tax stamp is very damaged it has both black "canceled" on it and some red numbers.  Here is the Ace of spades,  Any help would be appreciated

Thanks
Ben

It's possible those red numbers will indicate more accurately when the deck was made.  Unfortunately it doesn't appear that Standard PCC was using USPC's AoS letter codes at that time, or at least it has a code that doesn't conform to the standard and can't authoritatively be used to date the deck.  Tom Dawson has mentioned before that this has happened a number of times in the past, where the code couldn't accurately be used to determine age.

Perhaps a few court card images?

[52plusjoker]

The Tax stamp is very damaged it has both black "canceled" on it and some red numbers.  Here is the Ace of spades,  Any help would be appreciated

Thanks
Ben

It's possible those red numbers will indicate more accurately when the deck was made.  Unfortunately it doesn't appear that Standard PCC was using USPC's AoS letter codes at that time, or at least it has a code that doesn't conform to the standard and can't authoritatively be used to date the deck.  Tom Dawson has mentioned before that this has happened a number of times in the past, where the code couldn't accurately be used to determine age.

Perhaps a few court card images?

Definitely within 2-3 years of 1920

[Don Boyer]

The Tax stamp is very damaged it has both black "canceled" on it and some red numbers.  Here is the Ace of spades,  Any help would be appreciated

Thanks
Ben

It's possible those red numbers will indicate more accurately when the deck was made.  Unfortunately it doesn't appear that Standard PCC was using USPC's AoS letter codes at that time, or at least it has a code that doesn't conform to the standard and can't authoritatively be used to date the deck.  Tom Dawson has mentioned before that this has happened a number of times in the past, where the code couldn't accurately be used to determine age.

Perhaps a few court card images?

Definitely within 2-3 years of 1920

Then I wasn't really off-track.  I had it narrowed down to 1917-1924 based on the overprinted 2-cents stamp alone.

[MirroredReality]

Could you verify if this pack of JNs is real? Thanks.

               

               

[Lee Asher]

Sorry to report, but the deck pictured above is fake.

The thin security strip (which should be red), as well as the off-colored label and position gave it away. I hope you paid for these in counterfeit money because this is a counterfeit deck. 

[MrVamp]

I have been looking to take my collection in the direction of collecting vintage standard brands, from now closed American playing card companies, only focusing on the decks that come in standard red & blue backs, sealed and in some kind of cellophane or foil (either outside or inside the box). However, I am wondering, when did standard American playing cards start getting produced with cellophane or foil, and which companies introduced it?

[Don Boyer]

I have been looking to take my collection in the direction of collecting vintage standard brands, from now closed American playing card companies, only focusing on the decks that come in standard red & blue backs, sealed and in some kind of cellophane or foil (either outside or inside the box). However, I am wondering, when did standard American playing cards start getting produced with cellophane or foil, and which companies introduced it?

Wow - that's a major challenge you're setting for yourself.

Have you checked in the Hochman's Encyclopedia yet?  That would probably have every bit of information you need to find those decks.

BTW: when you say "standard brands," what's your definition of such?  For example, Bicycle would be considered a standard brand, but there were over eighty different card backs used with the Bicycle brand name prior to 1950.  Some were available for only a limited time while others were around for decades - and one, the Rider Back, was printed first in 1893 and has been in print ever since.  And it wasn't their first design - the design now called the Old Fan Back is believed to be the first, in 1885.  Then, it was just called the Fan Back - just as World War I was a name not used for "the Great War" until World War II took place.

Now, Bicycle was always a USPC brand, originated within the company.  So let's look at the brands that originated elsewhere.  Bee (NY Consolidated) is best known for the Diamond Back, and Tally Ho (A. Doughtery) is best known for two backs, the "Original Circle" back and "Original Fan" back - but both decks have had several backs over the years.  Hoyle (Brown & Bigelow) today is known for their Shell Back - I'd be very surprised if it was their only design.  Arrco (originally the Arrow Card Co.) has their US Regulation decks as well as their Tahoe designs...

There's a lot of possibilities, as you can see.

[MrVamp]

I just ordered the Hochman Encyclopedia from the 52 plus Joker website, and started reading it today. Good stuff already!

I know that this might be the start of a collection that may never finish. But I guess that is what gives the pleasure of collecting: That you are never really finished, because there is always another item you can add by widening your scope. However, right now, in this part of my collection, my scope is standard American brands that can be found sealed in a box, with some kind of foil or cellophane, either outside the box, or wrapped around the cards inside.

And yes, all the brands you are mentioning are within interest, as long as they are to be found as issued in the condition described earlier. I just have to figure out, which come in a box, that originally had cellophane around it, or came sealed with a wrapper around the cards inside, so I can focus my search. The last part, the cards being wrapped in foil or another type of material inside the sealed box, is harder to discover. That's why it would be interesting to know which cards came in that condition.

For instance these "Bee" cards have wrapped cards inside box. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1940s-Sealed-Wrapper-New-York-Consolidated-Playing-Cards-Bee-Poker-Squeezers-/261836861538?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cf6b17062

However, these come in cellophane: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Bee-No-92-Playing-Cards-W-Tax-Stamp-Consolidated-Card-Co-/151666421471?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item235005eedf

Both are prospects to my collection, albeit in "as issued" condition, because they either come in cellophane or wrapped inside the sealed box. But the latter is harder to figure out, when you just see a sealed deck unopened. And I want to steer clear of decks that are sealed without cellophane and/or wrapped cards inside.

However, I am now sipping through Hochman's Part 1, so I hope to discover more :-)

I have been looking to take my collection in the direction of collecting vintage standard brands, from now closed American playing card companies, only focusing on the decks that come in standard red & blue backs, sealed and in some kind of cellophane or foil (either outside or inside the box). However, I am wondering, when did standard American playing cards start getting produced with cellophane or foil, and which companies introduced it?

Wow - that's a major challenge you're setting for yourself.

Have you checked in the Hochman's Encyclopedia yet?  That would probably have every bit of information you need to find those decks.

BTW: when you say "standard brands," what's your definition of such?  For example, Bicycle would be considered a standard brand, but there were over eighty different card backs used with the Bicycle brand name prior to 1950.  Some were available for only a limited time while others were around for decades - and one, the Rider Back, was printed first in 1893 and has been in print ever since.  And it wasn't their first design - the design now called the Old Fan Back is believed to be the first, in 1885.  Then, it was just called the Fan Back - just as World War I was a name not used for "the Great War" until World War II took place.

Now, Bicycle was always a USPC brand, originated within the company.  So let's look at the brands that originated elsewhere.  Bee (NY Consolidated) is best known for the Diamond Back, and Tally Ho (A. Doughtery) is best known for two backs, the "Original Circle" back and "Original Fan" back - but both decks have had several backs over the years.  Hoyle (Brown & Bigelow) today is known for their Shell Back - I'd be very surprised if it was their only design.  Arrco (originally the Arrow Card Co.) has their US Regulation decks as well as their Tahoe designs...

There's a lot of possibilities, as you can see.

[Don Boyer]

If your prime criterion is that the deck box or the cards contained inside had to be covered in a foil or cellophane wrapper, that would cover the majority of the decks made in the last century!  I don't know the exact year it occurred, but I do know that at some point in the years following World War I, decks had wrappers made of some kind of waxed or vellum paper around the cards inside the boxes - and quite probably before, as well.  Cellophane wrapping on the outside of the box came later - probably mid-century.  I own one or two sealed decks from the 1940s that had no cellophane on them, but I'm reasonably sure that by the 1960s it was commonplace.

Furthermore, there are a few (very few) modern decks that are sold unwrapped and without cellophane of any kind.  I've seen one or two, and in most cases, it's because the box was autographed by the designer or some additional feature like a custom sticker seal was added after manufacturing.  Then there are the rare few decks that are handmade by the artist - they're popular enough to appear in most of the recent auctions 52 Plus Joker has held, but rare enough that they command high prices and exist in tiny quantities.

[MrVamp]

If your prime criterion is that the deck box or the cards contained inside had to be covered in a foil or cellophane wrapper, that would cover the majority of the decks made in the last century!  I don't know the exact year it occurred, but I do know that at some point in the years following World War I, decks had wrappers made of some kind of waxed or vellum paper around the cards inside the boxes - and quite probably before, as well. 

Interesting about the waxed or vellum paper. I wonder how you can tell that a sealed vintage deck actually have this inside the box. It is kind of sad to open a sealed vintage deck, just to check :-)

[Don Boyer]

If your prime criterion is that the deck box or the cards contained inside had to be covered in a foil or cellophane wrapper, that would cover the majority of the decks made in the last century!  I don't know the exact year it occurred, but I do know that at some point in the years following World War I, decks had wrappers made of some kind of waxed or vellum paper around the cards inside the boxes - and quite probably before, as well. 

Interesting about the waxed or vellum paper. I wonder how you can tell that a sealed vintage deck actually have this inside the box. It is kind of sad to open a sealed vintage deck, just to check :-)

It's not that hard to find out - if you do your research.  If one deck of a single print run had a vellum wrapper with a wax USPC seal around the cards as well as a tax stamp on the box, it's a safe bet that the entire rest of the print run was originally released in the same condition with the same materials.  You only need someone, somewhere, to have opened one box and for that person to tell about the experience!

A lot of information is also available in reference guides like the Hochman's Encyclopedia.