Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker

[Wild Joker]

Look closer. Those Classic playing cards are Cartamundi decks, made in China.

I didn't know the brand, but yes, made in China, and it definitely shows.

The Classics appear to be replacing Mavericks as the dollar deck this year.

I don't believe I've ever seen Mavericks at any of our local DGs, however, they do seem to be the prefered deck brand for Big Lots here; despite being a more known brand, I never usually hear much positive things about Maverick . . . I guess that's why Big Lots has them, lol. I actually have recently noticed that each individual grocery store chain seems to carry a different brand, in additional to also stocking Bicycle (which is almost always found in the check-out lines). For example, in addition to Maverick at Big Lots, some of the grocery store chains in my town also stock Hoyle at Kroger (in a double pack like Walmart does with Bicycle), Bee at Food City (I bought a red and blue deck there), and Eagle at Ingles. Food City and Ingles also carry different decks of Bikes, such as Pinochle decks. As I said, they're usually found at check-out, but some cases, they'll have their own end-cap, usually at the end of whatever aisle has beer, soda, and chips.

The center "button" on the back design has changed slightly on various editions of this desk. Sorry, my decks aren't readily accessible for pictures right now.

Here's some quick scans I did to share:



Like Don said, the face cards are really bad - like low-quality digital print-outs or something: the outlines sort of bleed into each other, and the color quality is like trying to compare an off-brand box of crayons to Crayola. And that Ace of Spades isn't much to sneeze at either; I like a nice-looking Ace of Spades (Bee is probably one of my favorites), but this isn't one of them. Like I said, I got this deck at DG several, several years ago: it was the first deck I ever bought for myself, mainly because I wanted to get a deck of playing cards for a party, so I just grabbed the cheap deck at DG. I forget why I ended up buying the two decks of Bikes a year later, but when I did, I "woke up" and realized the difference in quality between a paper deck that was printed, coated, and finished here in the U.S. of A. and a plastic deck that was printed in China.

I will say this about that plastic deck: it is durable. I accidentally spilled a bottle of water on them once, and aside from the plastic stock warping and swelling slightly (it's a really fat deck now), the cards themselves weren't really damaged at all . . . unfortunately, when some of my Bikes happened to rest on a wet ring on the desk, that was it, I had to replace the deck, which is why I try to take good care of my Bikes and Bees, lol. I know a lot of people prefer plastic decks for that very reason, but just for my personal preference in terms of feel and handling, I do like a nice, coated, finished paper deck. Heck, I can still remember the smell of that Cartamundi deck when I first opened it. . . . not pleasant.

[Don Boyer]

Look closer. Those Classic playing cards are Cartamundi decks, made in China.

I didn't know the brand, but yes, made in China, and it definitely shows.

The Classics appear to be replacing Mavericks as the dollar deck this year.

I don't believe I've ever seen Mavericks at any of our local DGs, however, they do seem to be the prefered deck brand for Big Lots here; despite being a more known brand, I never usually hear much positive things about Maverick . . . I guess that's why Big Lots has them, lol. I actually have recently noticed that each individual grocery store chain seems to carry a different brand, in additional to also stocking Bicycle (which is almost always found in the check-out lines). For example, in addition to Maverick at Big Lots, some of the grocery store chains in my town also stock Hoyle at Kroger (in a double pack like Walmart does with Bicycle), Bee at Food City (I bought a red and blue deck there), and Eagle at Ingles. Food City and Ingles also carry different decks of Bikes, such as Pinochle decks. As I said, they're usually found at check-out, but some cases, they'll have their own end-cap, usually at the end of whatever aisle has beer, soda, and chips.

The center "button" on the back design has changed slightly on various editions of this desk. Sorry, my decks aren't readily accessible for pictures right now.

Here's some quick scans I did to share:



Like Don said, the face cards are really bad - like low-quality digital print-outs or something: the outlines sort of bleed into each other, and the color quality is like trying to compare an off-brand box of crayons to Crayola. And that Ace of Spades isn't much to sneeze at either; I like a nice-looking Ace of Spades (Bee is probably one of my favorites), but this isn't one of them. Like I said, I got this deck at DG several, several years ago: it was the first deck I ever bought for myself, mainly because I wanted to get a deck of playing cards for a party, so I just grabbed the cheap deck at DG. I forget why I ended up buying the two decks of Bikes a year later, but when I did, I "woke up" and realized the difference in quality between a paper deck that was printed, coated, and finished here in the U.S. of A. and a plastic deck that was printed in China.

I will say this about that plastic deck: it is durable. I accidentally spilled a bottle of water on them once, and aside from the plastic stock warping and swelling slightly (it's a really fat deck now), the cards themselves weren't really damaged at all . . . unfortunately, when some of my Bikes happened to rest on a wet ring on the desk, that was it, I had to replace the deck, which is why I try to take good care of my Bikes and Bees, lol. I know a lot of people prefer plastic decks for that very reason, but just for my personal preference in terms of feel and handling, I do like a nice, coated, finished paper deck. Heck, I can still remember the smell of that Cartamundi deck when I first opened it. . . . not pleasant.

When I commented on the poor quality of the Cartamundi decks I've seen, I wasn't even commenting on the print quality - just the quality of the stock and its coating.  Really low-grade stuff, for the most part.

When you say "plastic deck," are you referring to a deck that's made of 100% plastic or a deck that's plastic coated?  There's a world of difference between the two.

Mavericks are sort of a house brand with Family Dollar stores.  Previously, Maverick was an unheard-of brand in the Northeast, but as Family Dollar has been making its way into the region (at least in New York State), they've taken their brands with them.  They have special versions of Maverick, Bicycle Standard and Bicycle Pink Ribbon (current edition) sold only in their stores that have a slightly shorter face design with a wide margin along the top and a price printed on the box in a circle in the left end of the margin - $1 for Mavericks, $3 for the two Bicycle designs.  They're not easy to find, though, at least not the Bicycles - because the Bicycles are so cheap compared to the normal going rate, they often run out long before a new shipment arrives.

If we continue this line of discussion, we should move it into the Playing Card Plethora board - we've stopped talking about vintage decks a while ago now!

[Wild Joker]

I'm sorry about that. I think I can safely lay to rest my previous inquiry.

But to answer your question about plastic decks, I'm pretty sure the former, because I believe the box said 100% plastic . . . I don't have the box anymore (again, it was years ago when I bought the deck), and I didn't even look to see if it said that on the boxes I looked at the other day to check for a brand name, but I seem to recall the box saying 100% plastic. Not sure if I've ever handled a plastic coated deck.

Okay, carry on with the thread, sorry for driving it off topic.

[Don Boyer]

I'm sorry about that. I think I can safely lay to rest my previous inquiry.

But to answer your question about plastic decks, I'm pretty sure the former, because I believe the box said 100% plastic . . . I don't have the box anymore (again, it was years ago when I bought the deck), and I didn't even look to see if it said that on the boxes I looked at the other day to check for a brand name, but I seem to recall the box saying 100% plastic. Not sure if I've ever handled a plastic coated deck.

Okay, carry on with the thread, sorry for driving it off topic.

If you've handled a modern deck manufactured in the last half-century or so, you've handled plastic-coated cards!  Every deck USPC produces - even the cheap ones they still have made for them by third-party printers in China (Mavericks) and the high-grade ones made for them by Fournier in Spain - are plastic-coated.  The laminate they use on the surface of the paper for improved durability is a type of plastic.  The term "plastic" covers a HUGE range of chemicals, including the full range of pasteboard paper coatings, from the best to the worst.

When I was a kid (and probably some years before that), cheap, poorly-made decks were often advertised on the box as "Plastic-Coated" in order to differentiate them from the even-cheaper uncoated decks (the kind that fall apart if you breathe on them or stare at them too hard) - the manufacturers were trying to equate their product with something produced under the more expensive brand names.  But cheaply-made decks are still cheaply-made decks no matter how you slice it, and in the end, rather than "Plastic-Coated" elevating the public view of the product, the product deprecated the public view of the term "Plastic-Coated," making people think that it was the hallmark of a low-quality deck rather than a common feature of most decks, especially the best-made ones.

[Don Boyer]

I might have found the deck in question, the one from that M*A*S*H episode - and it might be a USPC-made deck.

This is a bridge-sized deck called "Pastime" and it has a back similar to the Aviator Bridge decks before they went out of print. The center star image, which I originally thought was six-pointed in the scene, is actually eight-pointed, like these cards.  The bulk of the background image is a similar repeating pattern, and the edge of the image near the borders has a very similar "radiating outward" appearance to the design on this card back.

I spotted this deck in an active auction on eBay Canada moments ago.

[Wild Joker]

That does look very similar as well, and you're right, I also see the similarities in the Aviator cards (slightly off-topic, but I was watching an episode of THE ODD COUPLE the other night, and while Oscar and his poker buddies ordinarily played with Bees, they were playing with Aviators this time around).

And when I was looking on Google Images to see if I could find the mystery deck featured in that I LOVE LUCY episode I mentioned in another thread, I think I may have found another possibility:

According to the source I got it from, this is a Bridge Club deck (no. 9494), and clearly made in Hong Kong, as printed on the Joker. While the center design is clearly a stylized circle rather than a star, looking at it out of focus with your eyes blurred seems to make it look more a star pattern.

[Don Boyer]

It's certainly a contender - but the fact remains that without clearer images of the actual deck in use, we might as well be looking for a specific drop of water floating somewhere in the ocean...

I should qualify my earlier statement about plastic-coated decks.  I'm told that as of 2009, the US government passed regulations that required playing card manufacturers to use more environmentally-friendly materials for making cards.  Papers now have a significant percentage of post-consumer recycled content, inks are made from vegetable-based dyes and coatings for the paper are starch-based instead of plastic-based.

This applies, as far as I know, only to decks made within the United States, so the biggest company affected would be USPC, but as far as foreign-made decks sold here or elsewhere, it would depend on the laws of whatever land they were made/sold in.  Europeans might have similar regulations in place, but it's unlikely any Asia countries do, and China is likely the biggest foreign supplier of playing cards to the US.  By extension, because USPC supplies a huge amount of cards to the Canadian market, this would mean that those cards are also more eco-friendly and made with the same materials.  They also sell in other countries, but aside from the Maverick brand, all decks sold under the USPC brand name are made in the US by the same processes and using the same materials.  Mavericks are subcontracted out to at least one Chinese company and are still plastic-coated.  And of course, Fournier decks would be covered under Spanish/EU laws, so they might still be plastic-coated, assuming they were in the first place - again, I don't know what restrictions apply there.

[Wild Joker]

I have heard some people talk about how USPC cards have taken a dive in overall quality in the recent years - I'm not entirely sure if that has something to do with it or not, mainly because I honestly can't tell a difference: the first time I bought a pair of Bikes was back in 2009 (but who knows how long they had been on the shelf prior to my purchase) when their factory was still in Ohio; I bought a pair of replacements last year, after they moved to Kentucky. As I said, I know people say they can tell a difference and the cards aren't as good as they used to be, but again, I really see and feel no difference. But then again, I'm not an expert on these things, nor have I been handling cards for a long time. Really, my only quibble with Bikes is how lop-sided their back designs are printed, leaving the white borders thin on one corner, but thick on the opposite corner. I hear that's the only good thing about certain Ace decks, in that their borders are perfectly printed and thin.

[Don Boyer]

I have heard some people talk about how USPC cards have taken a dive in overall quality in the recent years - I'm not entirely sure if that has something to do with it or not, mainly because I honestly can't tell a difference: the first time I bought a pair of Bikes was back in 2009 (but who knows how long they had been on the shelf prior to my purchase) when their factory was still in Ohio; I bought a pair of replacements last year, after they moved to Kentucky. As I said, I know people say they can tell a difference and the cards aren't as good as they used to be, but again, I really see and feel no difference. But then again, I'm not an expert on these things, nor have I been handling cards for a long time. Really, my only quibble with Bikes is how lop-sided their back designs are printed, leaving the white borders thin on one corner, but thick on the opposite corner. I hear that's the only good thing about certain Ace decks, in that their borders are perfectly printed and thin.

Your 2009 deck might not have been Ohio-made.  Tuck boxes marked with Ohio that have a BLACK deck seal were, in most cases, filled with cards made in Erlanger.  Check the guarantee joker's return address to be certain.

Regardless, that has NOTHING to do with the poor quality of the die cutting.  I've noticed it on many decks made since the move.  Nearly every deck I run into recently, be it a short-run custom or a mass-produced deck, has centering issues.  Faces are one thing, but backs?  I can open almost any new pack of cards and use it almost like a stripper deck because of the off-center cutting.

I'm pretty sure they've switch to using a slightly thinner stock for Bicycle decks.  Many people have noticed it.

For custom decks, "Magic Finish" is the great equalizer.  It's not really a finish, but a coating placed on the paper to give it better glide characteristics.  I have no idea what it's made from, but I do know it's the default for all custom deck projects - a designer has to make a special request to NOT have it applied.

[Wild Joker]

Your 2009 deck might not have been Ohio-made.  Tuck boxes marked with Ohio that have a BLACK deck seal were, in most cases, filled with cards made in Erlanger.  Check the guarantee joker's return address to be certain.

Even though I don't have those 2009 decks anymore, I do still have the guarantee joker, and yes, it has the Ohio address on it. My 2015 (or, 2015 purchased, the boxes are dated 2013) decks have the Kentucky address on the guarantee.

I'm pretty sure they've switch to using a slightly thinner stock for Bicycle decks.  Many people have noticed it.

That much I can tell, yes. As I mentioned previously, in comparison to my Bees, the stock does have a slightly thinner and flimsier feel - but likewise, the Bikes' air-cushion finish has a slightly smoother feel to the touch compared to the slightly coarser cambric finish on the Bees.

But that's about as much I can tell.

[Don Boyer]

Your 2009 deck might not have been Ohio-made.  Tuck boxes marked with Ohio that have a BLACK deck seal were, in most cases, filled with cards made in Erlanger.  Check the guarantee joker's return address to be certain.

Even though I don't have those 2009 decks anymore, I do still have the guarantee joker, and yes, it has the Ohio address on it. My 2015 (or, 2015 purchased, the boxes are dated 2013) decks have the Kentucky address on the guarantee.

I'm pretty sure they've switch to using a slightly thinner stock for Bicycle decks.  Many people have noticed it.

That much I can tell, yes. As I mentioned previously, in comparison to my Bees, the stock does have a slightly thinner and flimsier feel - but likewise, the Bikes' air-cushion finish has a slightly smoother feel to the touch compared to the slightly coarser cambric finish on the Bees.

But that's about as much I can tell.

Bee stock has always been thicker than Bicycle stock, to my knowledge, and is still true today.  I was comparing newer Bicycle decks to older Bicycle decks - newer ones are a little thinner.

Texture-wise, aside from the amount of pressure used to crush the paper, resulting in thinner or thicker stock, there's no difference in the finishes between the two stocks they now offer on their basic decks.  Cambric, Air Cushion, Linoid, Linen - all the same.  USPC calls them "embossed" when you're a designer ordering a new deck.  So you can get thin (Bicycle) or thick (Bee) and you can get embossed (name-the-dimpled-finish-of-your-choice) or smooth (name-the-undimpled-finish-of-your-choice, such as Smooth, Ivory, etc.).  The names are carried over out of tradition and for marketing purposes - at one time in history they might have been different, but today, they aren't.

[Rena]

Hello:

This is a complete set of the Israel Stamp Game #7 from 1957.
Probably purchased by a relative on a trip to Israel in the late 50s.
I haven't been able to find any information about it.
Is it rare? Something a museum or serious collector would like?

Thanks,
Rena

[Don Boyer]

I honestly couldn't put a value on something like that.  It would depend on how rare the deck is today and how popular a subject Israeli stamps are.  It's not something we generally put a value on here, because we mostly deal with International Standard decks - 52 cards, four suits, 13 ranks, perhaps a few extra jokers or ad cards.

It would be better to find a forum that specializes in either 1) Israeli memorabilia, 2) games in general or custom card games in particular, or 3) ephemera.  The last is a very broad category of collectible - it's basically items that were never meant to last long after they were made and used, things that were intended to be consumed and disposed of but by some twist of fate have managed to survive far longer than expected.  Anything like newspapers, magazines, books, comics, collectible cards, many types of toys, show programs, ticket stubs, bottle caps, etc. and many, many more.  Ephemera, in order to be collectible, usually has to have some kind of appeal to the collector, often on a personal level - a collector of board games may have played them a lot when he was a kid, a collector of Christmas ornaments may be exceptionally fond of that holiday, etc.  Either that, or it's an item that has a clear monetary value and a collector buys it speculatively, as a sort of investment, hoping it will rise in value swiftly enough to make it worth his initial outlay for it when he sells it.  As far as investments go, however, it's not one I'd be banking my retirement on!

Check with ephemera dealers in Israel - they're likely to have a better idea of the rarity and value in today's market.  I'm inclined to think there's some value to it if for no other reason than that it's survived intact for nearly 60 years.  But if it was exceptionally common at the time and many people kept them over the years, this is something that would drive market value down for an item like this.  Fortunately for you, items in the ephemera category rarely last this long in large numbers!

[darkinertia]

whats the general USPC seal change timeline look like? IE: tax stamps,uspc seals with the tax stamp style serrations, offset blue seals, centered blue seals,etc...and are red seals a part of that general deck timeline, or is that more of a casino deck thing(ive only seen them on bee casino decks before)?

[Cardfool]

whats the general USPC seal change timeline look like? IE: tax stamps,uspc seals with the tax stamp style serrations, offset blue seals, centered blue seals,etc...and are red seals a part of that general deck timeline, or is that more of a casino deck thing(ive only seen them on bee casino decks before)?

Check out the Introduction to the Hobby of Playing Card Collecting by Lee Asher...it's a pretty awesome reference and gives a general answer to your question.

http://www.52plusjoker.org/mailings/card-collecting-guide-asher.pdf

[darkinertia]

oh wow thanks cardfool, thats very helpful! guess i know what to look out for now! do you know when the offset vs centered start? ive seen them as late as the late 90s, but im not exactly sure when

[Don Boyer]

oh wow thanks cardfool, thats very helpful! guess i know what to look out for now! do you know when the offset vs centered start? ive seen them as late as the late 90s, but im not exactly sure when

I remember as a kid in the 1970s seeing centered seals on USPC decks.  I'm thinking somewhere in the first ten years after the revocation of the tax on playing cards, they started applying the seals on the center of the lid instead of off to the side; I have no idea why.  Perforated, moisture-activated adhesive stamps were the standard from 1965 into the 1980s, eventually being replaced by stickers.

Red and blue seals were in common use until the factory relocation in 2009, at which point black seals became standard.  But this isn't a hard and fast rule - special releases and custom decks can have any kind or color of seals on them.  But if you're talking about just the "general issue" stuff you'd find in the local corner store, pharmacy, etc., that's pretty much what you'll find.

[horsetrader1010]

At International Resource Seekers we are personal and business purchasing agents. We specialize in finding and  acquiring, for our clients, items that they are unable to find, or can find, but don't want to pay the high price being asked.  If the item we find is not exactly what they want, they are not obligated to take it, and have no expense. We will, if we can, return the item to our source. In the rare instance when we cannot return it, We sell it on which ever venue seems to be the best.

I have a deck of Kem Cards that I've had so long, that I have no clue as to where they came from.  I've been trying to find out what they are and how old they are.. Googling one site after another with no success led me to you.

I'm not sure of the proper procedure to post the a description & picture.  They are in a brown Kem box. Both decks are still factory sealed.  Can't get get to the Ace of Spades to see date code.  Please advise.

Thanks,  Horsetrader 1010

[Don Boyer]

At International Resource Seekers we are personal and business purchasing agents. We specialize in finding and  acquiring, for our clients, items that they are unable to find, or can find, but don't want to pay the high price being asked.  If the item we find is not exactly what they want, they are not obligated to take it, and have no expense. We will, if we can, return the item to our source. In the rare instance when we cannot return it, We sell it on which ever venue seems to be the best.

I have a deck of Kem Cards that I've had so long, that I have no clue as to where they came from.  I've been trying to find out what they are and how old they are.. Googling one site after another with no success led me to you.

I'm not sure of the proper procedure to post the a description & picture.  They are in a brown Kem box. Both decks are still factory sealed.  Can't get get to the Ace of Spades to see date code.  Please advise.

Thanks,  Horsetrader 1010

I've moved your post into a more appropriate topic.

As you've had them for "a long time," they're probably "original Kem," manufactured in New York and predating the purchase of the company by the United States Playing Card Company (USPC) in 2004.

For those Kem decks, you'll notice they have a three- or four-digit number on the Ace of Spades, just below the left lobe of the spade in the body artwork.  The last two digits will be the year of manufacture.  The remaining digits will be the month of manufacture.  But, as you've stated, you don't have access to the Aces of Spades, so I'm assuming your deck is still in "as issued" condition, wrapped in the packaging - what some collectors refer to as "new old stock;" old merchandise in new condition.

Beyond using that code, we'd need to see images - photos of the packaging, the decks themselves, whatever you've got.  The packaging itself might give some clues, as there were different boxes used over the years, starting with the lovely vertically-oriented Bakelite boxes in the earlier years and ending with the flat, wide plastic boxes I'm familiar with from when I started playing with Kem cards.

[Chuqii]

Like Don said, please post some pictures.  I bet we can narrow it down to within a few years, but gotta have the pics.

[Chuqii]

Got some new cards in, and I am hoping someone can help me identify the manufacturer and approximate date.  Here's a pic of the Ace of Spades, the back and the spade courts. Thanks.

[Chuqii]

Update:  I found nearly identical court cards on the World Web Playing Card Museum listing for Extra Congress c.1881-1895 - see second picture and -http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks03/d01878/d01878.htm  so these could be old USPC courts.  But I have no idea on the Ace of Spades.  Did someone copy USPC?  Cards for a foreign market?  Foreign cards?  Help me out.

[Chuqii]

Here's another deck.

[Chuqii]

Many thanks to Ken Lodge and Simon Wintle for their help in indentifying these decks. Turns out the American Card Company "borrowed" some of the early Russell & Morgan courts.  American Playing Card Company, c 1900-1910.  Hochman's encyclopedia ( L72 )  has a picture of a joker with the same design as the ace of spades shown.

[mrdeckcollector]

Hi Everyone,

First time poster here and beginning collector, I started a topic on this, but then saw this thread and thought I'd post here as well.

I was browsing eBay this past week, and stumbled upon a deck that I'd like to learn more about. I've done a lot of my own research, but I wanted to see if there were any other analytical minds out there that could assist.

The eBay listing sold to me for $6.51, and was titled "Antique The Consolidated card co. New York Deluxe playing cards no.142". However, I quickly realized that what was actually included in the box is not the no.142 De Luxe cards. Upon further research, it looks like I may have *accidentally* purchased a rare deck that was manufactured in 1891 - "Midwinter Fair and Pacific Coast Playing Cards".

I've found the following link based on the back-design of the cards:
http://blogs.lib.berkeley.edu/bancsurvey.php/title_39

...These include a nifty deck of illustrated playing cards from the San Francisco Mid-Winter Exposition, 1884. This particular deck of "Midwinter Fair and Pacific Coast Playing Cards" was manufactured by The Winters Art Litho Co., San Francisco/Chicago in 1891; they have an enamel finish. In addition to illustrations of the Mid-Winter Expo, the cards depict scenes from the Pacific Coast, from Washington State to Los Angeles. Bay Area scenes include San Francisco's Chinatown, Golden Gate Park and Alcatraz.

And also found this 52+Joker link, but I don't really know what I'm looking at. It seems to be an auction flier, with my deck listed at "Minimum 150" - (Lot 63) http://www.52plusjoker.org/dnn/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=nKvZTxmxwnU%3D&tabid=76&mid=413

However, the cards I purchased did not come with the original box, instead with this De Luxe box. And the condition is actually pretty bad (I'll post my pictures later, but for now, here are the listing pictures).

Any thoughts? I don't really know what I'm looking or asking for here, maybe its just to start a conversation In any case, $6.51 sounds like a steal for cards manufactured in 1891, even in this condition.