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Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker

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Re: Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker
« Reply #350 on: April 29, 2022, 11:34:37 AM »
 

MonkeyBoy52

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Trying again
 

Re: Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker
« Reply #351 on: April 30, 2022, 06:40:42 PM »
 

Chuqii

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Based on the tax stamp and date code, I'd agree with 1954.  Also, 1954 was the last year for the larger images on the court cards.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2022, 11:47:47 AM by Chuqii »
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Re: Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker
« Reply #352 on: May 01, 2022, 01:11:42 PM »
 

MonkeyBoy52

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Thanks Chuqii
 

Re: Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker
« Reply #353 on: July 16, 2022, 08:55:10 PM »
 

Mel x

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Good Day Experts!  Found this deck at a resale shop and I believe it to be the Oak Leaf Back Bicycle deck with the branded Bicycle ace. It is missing the jokers and is not pristine. I am a bit of a card collector but generally only do decks that interest me like theme decks, art decks, tarot (for the art, not the woo), and the like. I collect what I like, not what has value. I really have no interest in standard playing card decks. Couple questions: What is this deck worth? Where would be a good place to sell it? I could not find any comps on line but know it could be the rare branded ace deck!? Would rather list it on a collectors site than ebay or the like, even if it means I got less for it.


 

Re: Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker
« Reply #354 on: July 27, 2022, 03:20:31 PM »
 

Chuqii

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My guess is $40-50 with condition and no joker.  I think there are some groups on facebook where you could sell it if you are looking for a collector.
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Re: Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker
« Reply #355 on: July 27, 2022, 03:46:08 PM »
 

Mel x

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Thank you. I will look on FB for some groups. I appreciate your time.
 

Re: Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker
« Reply #356 on: March 25, 2023, 12:13:47 PM »
 

Chuqii

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Here's a question for the more knowledgeable Bicycle collectors out there.  I have a 1952 Bicycle New Fan back with an interesting tax stamp cancellation.  Appears to be cancelled by "VMS USA"  Anyone know what that could be?  Pics below.  Thanks for the help.
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Re: Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker
« Reply #357 on: April 14, 2023, 09:02:02 AM »
 

NCC1888

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I have a list of known and unknown cancellations from the American Revenue Association. V.M.S./U.S.A. is an unknown.
 

Re: Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker
« Reply #358 on: April 19, 2023, 03:53:21 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Here's a question for the more knowledgeable Bicycle collectors out there.  I have a 1952 Bicycle New Fan back with an interesting tax stamp cancellation.  Appears to be cancelled by "VMS USA"  Anyone know what that could be?  Pics below.  Thanks for the help.

Under most circumstances, a deck of cards with a tax stamp has that stamp canceled with an inked stamp of the company that made it, which in this case would be USPC.  It sure does look like it says VMS USA, but I have no clear idea what it could mean and why it's there.

I considered acronyms, but none of them for this combination of letters would make any sense - I'd thought that maybe, just maybe, the "V" stood for "Veterans" (plural) or Veterans'" (possessive plural), as if to indicate these were for some veterans' organization, but my stab in the dark came up dry.  It was a long shot - something done for the military services would be more likely to have a tax exempt stamp on it than an actual tax stamp.  The logic behind my thinking was that the US was engaged in the Korean War at the time.

Maybe it's some secret division of USPC from the '50s?

Looking over some articles I saw on tax stamps, I considered the odds that it might be stamped for foreign sales.  But then what the heck would the IRS have to do with it, right?

I even looked up the abbreviations of some popular manufacturers of the period - not that it would be logical, but we've ruled out logical so far!  There's no match, even if you think the "V" was a "W".

I'm at a loss to even guess at this point.
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Re: Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker
« Reply #359 on: August 16, 2023, 03:24:46 PM »
 

Chuqii

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Here's another puzzler, and I'm wondering if anyone has ever seen either of these decks, or if they were ever produced.  I've got what looks to be a printing samples or proofs for a tuck box for a 525 Aristocrat Multi-Color deck and a No. 06 Square Deal, both from Russell Playing Card Co.  Anybody ever seen one of these or have a deck?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2023, 09:56:41 AM by Chuqii »
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Re: Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker
« Reply #360 on: September 05, 2023, 01:52:00 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Here's another puzzler, and I'm wondering if anyone has ever seen either of these decks, or if they were ever produced.  I've got what looks to be a printing samples or proofs for a tuck box for a 525 Aristocrat Multi-Color deck and a No. 06 Square Deal, both from Russell Playing Card Co.  Anybody ever seen one of these or have a deck?


Can't say that I have, but they do look pretty cool, particularly the Aristocrats.  That would have been a cool idea - multi-color card backs...  I'm drooling just thinking about it...
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Re: Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker
« Reply #361 on: September 28, 2023, 08:40:43 AM »
 

NCC1888

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Here is something I noticed recently with court cards (US pre-1930). I have searched the "Ask Alexander" archives and cannot find that anyone has mentioned this before. Why does the Queen of Diamonds face to our LEFT on cards made by the Western card makers (USPC, APC, KPCC, etc) and the ones made by East Coast makers (Dougherty, Cohen, Hart, NYCC, Pyramid, etc) face to our RIGHT? Has this ever been discussed?
This would seem to be a way to narrow down where an unknown deck came from.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2023, 08:49:30 AM by NCC1888 »
 

Re: Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker
« Reply #362 on: September 28, 2023, 09:19:13 AM »
 

NCC1888

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Along that same line of observance of the QoD facing I have dug deeper into a subject I brought up on my website about the Longley brothers. That is the symbol on the hilt of the sword of the KoH. The symbol (shown below) can be followed through all their connected card companies (Card Fabrique, Globe, American Playing Card, USPC and National). (First symbol shown below) I have also found connected symbols for ones used by Telbax, Midland and the Independent Playing Card Company which are all connected to Wesley Culp. (Second Symbol shown below)
I am compiling a database of these symbols and an article/website. I will be searching out more decks to photograph and catalog at the Cleveland Convention this year to test my theory. So if you are there with an odd deck please come see me. If you are not coming I would appreciate any KoH closeup photos. My email is daveseaney@att.net
 

Re: Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker
« Reply #363 on: November 30, 2023, 11:32:25 AM »
 

larryfishy

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Can someone help me find out the year this deck is please?
 

Re: Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker
« Reply #364 on: February 14, 2024, 02:46:44 PM »
 

Cabbie

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SUBJECT  :  Mystery Piatnik deck I need help identifying.

I won this deck from a seller in England a couple of weeks ago. It is made by Ferdinand Piatnik & Sons, Vienna. I researched this deck for days before I broke down and bought it and researched for many days more, but I could find no reference online or in any of my books. It is a rather unusual deck (see photos below), especially for a Piatnik deck. From all the evidence I can gather, I am pretty sure it is an antique deck that I am dating as from the 1920s. But again, I searched everywhere and I can find no match for it, not anywhere online and not in the Fournier Museum books. I even searched all the Fournier entries, since the deck appears to be a recreation of an even earlier deck. No matches there, either. So, if anyone can identify this baby, I'd love some information on the Piatnik mystery deck.

So, here are the details I know about this deck :
1.) It is a 52-card poker type deck with French suits, and has an extra blank card. There were some early 20th century decks that came with a blank card to replace one that was lost or damaged.
2.) The card backs are a cross-hatch pattern in blue, a common backing for late 19th century to early 20th century decks.
3.) The card stock is heavy and solid and relatively rough, typical of many early 20th century decks, whereas a modern recreation deck would likely have a shiny surface on thinner card stock. This deck feels authentically old.
4.) The card color is a very pale eggshell color, typical of many 100 year old decks. A modern deck would likely be bright white for the background color.
5.) The card size is about 100 mm by 67 mm, which is bigger than the standard modern poker deck size.
6.) The Ace of Hearts has the Piatnik "mounted jockey" logo in black and white (no color), which puts it 1891 or after. 1891 is when they started using the horse and jockey logo.
7.) Strangely, the company logo says "Ferd. Piatnik e Figli S.A." and the trade mark horse and rider logo has the phrase "marca registrata". Turns out the "e Figli" (meaning "and sons") and "marca" phrases are both in Italian. And the "e Figli" is seen on several of the court cards. From the company history : In 1917 the Viennese parent company was turned into a family-owned joint stock enterprise under the name ?Erste ?sterreichische Spielkartenfabrik AG, Ferd. Piatnik & S?hne?.  So, you see the company name as F. Piatnik and Sons A.G. from 1917 to 1939 when the name was modified again. Possibly the "S.A." at the end of the Italian version of the company name was the Italian version of the A.G. If that is so, then it would place this deck from 1917 to 1939, but that is still speculation. On the World Web Playing Card Museum website, there is a selection of Piatnik logos from the 1917 to 1939 period when it was F. Piatnik and Sons A.G. , and the last one listed for 1939 is for one saying F. Piatnik e Figli S.A..
8.) The court figures are single ended (almost unknown for Piatnik decks, except for some Cartomancy decks), with figures in medieval dress. And the pips are ONLY in the upper left corner (no bottom right corner pip at all). These court cards are very reminiscent of the French costume decks from the 1840s to the 1860s. The court cards were built like these. So, even if this is an early 20th century deck, is appears to be a reproduction of a French deck from the 1850s or so.
9.) The four of diamonds card also has a very big and fancy company logo on it. Again, I could find no match for this unusual logo. But, on the World Web Playing Card Museum website they have examples of several big fancy Piatnik logos that look similar, with one of these having the A.G. on the end of it and another having the S.A. at the end. And I found an online auction for a Piatnk Skat deck with a similar large logo and the deck is dated as 1920.
10.) There is no 4-digit serial number below the logo, which you sometimes see on modern decks.

So, from all this evidence - the look and feel of the cards, the "S.A." which appears to place the deck between 1917 and 1939, the big fancy company logo on 4ofD, cross-hatch backs, etc. - I am dating the deck as circa the 1920s.

But again, I could find no exact matches for this deck anywhere. It's definitely unusual - an Austrian made deck, seemingly intended for the Itallian market and found in England. And the unusual court cards. Piatnik is still making historical recreation decks, buy they almost always have indices and pips in both corners. So, this court card formation seems to be VERY intentional.

If anyone can give me any information or proof of exactly what this deck is, I would greatly appreciate it.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2024, 11:50:42 PM by Cabbie »
 

Re: Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker
« Reply #365 on: February 14, 2024, 02:55:30 PM »
 

Cabbie

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A few more shots of the deck to help identify it :

 

Re: Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker
« Reply #366 on: February 15, 2024, 08:53:04 PM »
 

Worst Bower

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SUBJECT  :  Mystery Piatnik deck I need help identifying.

I won this deck from a seller in England a couple of weeks ago. It is made by Ferdinand Piatnik & Sons, Vienna. I researched this deck for days before I broke down and bought it and researched for many days more, but I could find no reference online or in any of my books. It is a rather unusual deck (see photos below), especially for a Piatnik deck. From all the evidence I can gather, I am pretty sure it is an antique deck that I am dating as from the 1920s. But again, I searched everywhere and I can find no match for it, not anywhere online and not in the Fournier Museum books. I even searched all the Fournier entries, since the deck appears to be a recreation of an even earlier deck. No matches there, either. So, if anyone can identify this baby, I'd love some information on the Piatnik mystery deck.

2.) The cross-hatch pattern is usually called tartan or, in France, tarotee.

8.) These cards are from the Tuscan/Florentine pattern designed in the 19th century and that's still produced today. What you have is fairly old since it has 52 cards. These days, it only comes in 40 cards (no 8s, 9s, or 10s).

https://www.modiano.it/it/prodotto/toscane-rosso-150-anniversario/
https://shop.dalnegro.com/prodotto/toscane-pro/
« Last Edit: February 15, 2024, 08:53:48 PM by Worst Bower »
 

Re: Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker
« Reply #367 on: February 15, 2024, 11:18:02 PM »
 

Cabbie

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Thanks a bunch, Mr. Worst Bower! I am so happy to figure out the origin of this odd Piatnik deck. I have a couple of modern Modiano decks in the Italian suits, but with so many regional versions of Italian playing cards, I just missed the Florentine pattern.

So, this all makes sense for this deck, with the Italian text on it. Piatnik was just making a Florentine pattern deck to sell to the northern Italian market. I am agreeing with you that it is old, having the 52 cards. And with all the other clues, I am still good with me saying circa 1920s for the age.

Oh man, I am going to have to go rewrite a lot of my text about the deck since much of the mystery is solved.
 

Re: Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker
« Reply #368 on: February 24, 2024, 10:40:29 AM »
 

Bruce

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Bicycle card question...

There are hundreds of Bicycle back designs (if not more) but reference material seems to be almost universally limited to 82 vintage backs. I know there are vintage decks and modern decks but today's modern is tomorrow's vintage. What's defining that specific cutoff point?
 

Re: Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker
« Reply #369 on: April 06, 2024, 06:23:20 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Bicycle card question...

There are hundreds of Bicycle back designs (if not more) but reference material seems to be almost universally limited to 82 vintage backs. I know there are vintage decks and modern decks but today's modern is tomorrow's vintage. What's defining that specific cutoff point?


Sorry this went so long unanswered.


This book is the main reason:
https://bicyclecards.org/mrs-robinsons/


It was printed in the 1950s and listed all the Bicycle backs that were known by the author to exist at the time.  For a long time, that was it, just those backs - I guess USPC didn't take on a lot of custom work in the pre-digital age unless you ran a casino and were planning to buy tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of decks.  Making a new deck design involved a lot of hard labor in the pre-digital days using engraved plates and other such fun, laborious methods to print.  It's not that long ago that people didn't have computers for design and print work and to make the plates for an offset printer.


You are correct in that today's new decks are tomorrow's vintage decks, and to go a step further, today's vintage decks are tomorrow's antique decks - and we don't have a category beyond antique!  A rough ballpark figure is that decks past 20 years old are vintage, decks past 100 years old are antique.


Now, there seems to be an implied question in there: where can I find the catalog that lists all of the Bicycle card backs from that booklet to today.  And you won't like the answer: there isn't one.  USPC over the years changed hands at least a half-dozen or more times, and with each change, there was a lot of upheaval in terms of taking care of what was valuable in the short term (decks printed in that moment) and not what isn't actively generating income (archives, old records, etc.).  So the records at USPC are likely not complete, and probably not well organized at this point, with much it still being stored analog, not digital.  They can certainly find a lot of stuff, but they would be very hard pressed to create a record of every single Bicycle back design and face design printed and used from the dawn of the brand to today - it's well over 130 years of info by now.
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