Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker

[52plusjoker]

This is a souvenir deck for the Royal Pavilon - made in Belgium as the publisher would have got it produced cheaper [in the same way you will see souvenir decks for USA sites that are made in Hong Kong]. Probably made in Tournout by what is now Carta Mundi.

[CordedTires]

Interesting. I don't associate Belgium with inexpensive goods.....

thanks Tom!

[Mike Ratledge]

Interesting. I don't associate Belgium with inexpensive goods.....

thanks Tom!

I don't either, Tom, but at one point there was Carti Mundi (AKA Cartimundi these days), Bierman and at least two other deck makers in Turnhout, Belgium. It's the home of the World Playing Cards Museum. There's bound to be a low cost maker amongst the lot, and CM has a large custom deck making group.

[Cryptocard27]

Hi 

I have some questions for the experts because I found recently several very interesting documents about the creation of some antique decks, antique backs and especially, with the name of the creators. Did you know these documents and the existence of these patents ? If yes, can you explain me why the name of these people (John Omwake, Alfred J. Manning, etc...) do not appear in the Hochman encyclopedia ? Thank you in advance for your help.
 

Here are some photos of these patents and I have all the PDF files if you are interested.

a+ Max

[Cryptocard27]

Here are other pictures of the patents

[52plusjoker]

I would be happy to get copies of the pdf files as they may provide information that would be relevant to the next edition of the Encyclopedia.

As far as patents go, there are literally thousands involving playing card design and hundreds if not thousands of people who applied for patents. I guess the purpose of the Encyclopedia is to catalogue all the brands of all the makers, so that collectors can identify them. A secondary purpose is to provide information and color about the companies themselves. There never was an intention to make Hochman a scholarly treatise on the people involved in the manufacture, other than a few principals of the major companies. The type of research and information need to delve in the history of each design is a subject for another study - by someone with a lot of time on their hands!

[Cryptocard27]

I would be happy to get copies of the pdf files as they may provide information that would be relevant to the next edition of the Encyclopedia.

As far as patents go, there are literally thousands involving playing card design and hundreds if not thousands of people who applied for patents. I guess the purpose of the Encyclopedia is to catalogue all the brands of all the makers, so that collectors can identify them. A secondary purpose is to provide information and color about the companies themselves. There never was an intention to make Hochman a scholarly treatise on the people involved in the manufacture, other than a few principals of the major companies. The type of research and information need to delve in the history of each design is a subject for another study - by someone with a lot of time on their hands!

Thank you very much for your quickly answer Tom and no problem for the copies. I can send you an archive (RAR or ZIP file) with all the PDF files on your mail address, if you want.

As you say, the research work must be enormous and I understand completely that these names do not appear in the Hochman for that reason. However, when we see what these people have create (major ace of spades and very known backs), I admit that it would be interesting to see them (the most important) in the encyclopedia, if only to pay tribute to their nice work.

[Mike Ratledge]

You do realize that "U S Printing Company" is the same company that became US Playing Card Company, right?  Omwake is one of their major early designers, and one of the two patents you showed of his is a major well-known back produced by "Bicycle" brand cards.

[Cryptocard27]

You do realize that "U S Printing Company" is the same company that became US Playing Card Company, right?  Omwake is one of their major early designers, and one of the two patents you showed of his is a major well-known back produced by "Bicycle" brand cards.

Thank you very much Mike but yes, I know that
However, could you speak me a little more about J.D McCracken ? What place had he exactly in the company please ?

[Cryptocard27]

Do you know if there is an antique/vintage deck (as the Stage #65 or Monarch Bicycle) or other ephemera which represents the us manufacturers please ? I ask you that because I'm looking for portraits of us makers and I only found Andrew Dougherty for the moment. I'm very interested to find A. O. Russell, Robert J. Morgan and Samuel J. Murray but do you think that it's possible?

[52plusjoker]

I would be happy to get copies of the pdf files as they may provide information that would be relevant to the next edition of the Encyclopedia.

As far as patents go, there are literally thousands involving playing card design and hundreds if not thousands of people who applied for patents. I guess the purpose of the Encyclopedia is to catalogue all the brands of all the makers, so that collectors can identify them. A secondary purpose is to provide information and color about the companies themselves. There never was an intention to make Hochman a scholarly treatise on the people involved in the manufacture, other than a few principals of the major companies. The type of research and information need to delve in the history of each design is a subject for another study - by someone with a lot of time on their hands!

Thank you very much for your quickly answer Tom and no problem for the copies. I can send you an archive (RAR or ZIP file) with all the PDF files on your mail address, if you want.

As you say, the research work must be enormous and I understand completely that these names do not appear in the Hochman for that reason. However, when we see what these people have create (major ace of spades and very known backs), I admit that it would be interesting to see them (the most important) in the encyclopedia, if only to pay tribute to their nice work.

I will be pleased to get the files by PDF in Zip format. You make a good point about the Encyclopedia. As we plan on revising it, I think it would be a good idea to put in some information on some of the unmentioned, until now, people who had a large influence on change and design. Your research and papers will be very helpful in that regard.
Thanks
Tom

[52plusjoker]

Do you know if there is an antique/vintage deck (as the Stage #65 or Monarch Bicycle) or other ephemera which represents the us manufacturers please ? I ask you that because I'm looking for portraits of us makers and I only found Andrew Dougherty for the moment. I'm very interested to find A. O. Russell, Robert J. Morgan and Samuel J. Murray but do you think that it's possible?

There is a Cincinnati souvenir deck that has pictures of some of these people, because US Printing was so important to the city as an employer, etc. However it is very scarce and expensive if you can find it.

[Mike Ratledge]

Tom is definitely the historian amongst us, but I know enough to blow my toes off one at a time if I aim well.

I did find an interesting picture recently that I was told hasn't been published, but I was also told that the two or three gentlemen on the far right are the principles, one supposedly Morgan.  Tom, do they look familiar to you?  I don't know them "on sight".  I was told this shot was taken about 1901 in Norwood (suburb of Cincinnati) before the "clock tower" was added to the front of the USPCC factory.  Looks right for the period clothing-wise and everything.  The photo was obviously taken with an old lenticular I think is the right word - camera.  Notice the bowing in on the right edge of the picture...

[Cryptocard27]

Tom is definitely the historian amongst us, but I know enough to blow my toes off one at a time if I aim well.

I did find an interesting picture recently that I was told hasn't been published, but I was also told that the two or three gentlemen on the far right are the principles, one supposedly Morgan.  Tom, do they look familiar to you?  I don't know them "on sight".  I was told this shot was taken about 1901 in Norwood (suburb of Cincinnati) before the "clock tower" was added to the front of the USPCC factory.  Looks right for the period clothing-wise and everything.  The photo was obviously taken with an old lenticular I think is the right word - camera.  Notice the bowing in on the right edge of the picture...

Many thanks for the sharing Mike, this photo is a real treasure!! Would it be possible to have an enlarged copy in high definition please ?

[Cryptocard27]

Do you know if there is an antique/vintage deck (as the Stage #65 or Monarch Bicycle) or other ephemera which represents the us manufacturers please ? I ask you that because I'm looking for portraits of us makers and I only found Andrew Dougherty for the moment. I'm very interested to find A. O. Russell, Robert J. Morgan and Samuel J. Murray but do you think that it's possible?

There is a Cincinnati souvenir deck that has pictures of some of these people, because US Printing was so important to the city as an employer, etc. However it is very scarce and expensive if you can find it.

Do you have possibly the name of the souvenir deck please Tom ? About the patents, I sent you PDF files in ZIP format on your mail address. At the moment, there are only 17 files but if I find other interesting, I shall also send them to you.

[Mike Ratledge]

Tom is definitely the historian amongst us, but I know enough to blow my toes off one at a time if I aim well.

I did find an interesting picture recently that I was told hasn't been published, but I was also told that the two or three gentlemen on the far right are the principles, one supposedly Morgan.  Tom, do they look familiar to you?  I don't know them "on sight".  I was told this shot was taken about 1901 in Norwood (suburb of Cincinnati) before the "clock tower" was added to the front of the USPCC factory.  Looks right for the period clothing-wise and everything.  The photo was obviously taken with an old lenticular I think is the right word - camera.  Notice the bowing in on the right edge of the picture...

Many thanks for the sharing Mike, this photo is a real treasure!! Would it be possible to have an enlarged copy in high definition please ?

The original for this image looks just like you see posted, very 'washed-out' and also has that "lenticular" bulge on the right side.  I suppose someone could tackle it with either PhotoShop or Illustrator and do it some justice, but I'm afraid that that's what I have - for now.  I'll have one of my graphic artists take a shot at it and see what they can do.  As far as I know this photo is previously unknown, and I purposefully only showed about 1/3rd of the image that I have.  (and "lenticular" may or may not be the proper word.  It has to do with magnifying classes used contemporarily  for "3D" or holographic images, but I think that is correct)

[52plusjoker]

Tom is definitely the historian amongst us, but I know enough to blow my toes off one at a time if I aim well.

I did find an interesting picture recently that I was told hasn't been published, but I was also told that the two or three gentlemen on the far right are the principles, one supposedly Morgan.  Tom, do they look familiar to you?  I don't know them "on sight".  I was told this shot was taken about 1901 in Norwood (suburb of Cincinnati) before the "clock tower" was added to the front of the USPCC factory.  Looks right for the period clothing-wise and everything.  The photo was obviously taken with an old lenticular I think is the right word - camera.  Notice the bowing in on the right edge of the picture...

I'm afraid I don't recognize anyone Mike, I was pretty young then. It is a fun photo. I do have pix of some of the principles [McCracken, Omawake, etc] somewhere and I'll try and find them.

[Mike Ratledge]

Tom is definitely the historian amongst us, but I know enough to blow my toes off one at a time if I aim well.

I did find an interesting picture recently that I was told hasn't been published, but I was also told that the two or three gentlemen on the far right are the principles, one supposedly Morgan.  Tom, do they look familiar to you?  I don't know them "on sight".  I was told this shot was taken about 1901 in Norwood (suburb of Cincinnati) before the "clock tower" was added to the front of the USPCC factory.  Looks right for the period clothing-wise and everything.  The photo was obviously taken with an old lenticular I think is the right word - camera.  Notice the bowing in on the right edge of the picture...

I'm afraid I don't recognize anyone Mike, I was pretty young then. It is a fun photo. I do have pix of some of the principles [McCracken, Omawake, etc] somewhere and I'll try and find them.

LOL, Tom!  I was hoping maybe one of the faces you had seen in pictures, Tom...  Lordy, you have a sense of humor quite like mine!

[Cryptocard27]

I do have pix of some of the principles [McCracken, Omawake, etc] somewhere and I'll try and find them.
[/quote]

If you find these photos, I would be very happy to see them if possible. I discovered Omwake and McCracken faces recently but it would be a pleasure to have other interesting informations about the persons of The Printi-playing Card Company..

[Cryptocard27]

Tom is definitely the historian amongst us, but I know enough to blow my toes off one at a time if I aim well.

I did find an interesting picture recently that I was told hasn't been published, but I was also told that the two or three gentlemen on the far right are the principles, one supposedly Morgan.  Tom, do they look familiar to you?  I don't know them "on sight".  I was told this shot was taken about 1901 in Norwood (suburb of Cincinnati) before the "clock tower" was added to the front of the USPCC factory.  Looks right for the period clothing-wise and everything.  The photo was obviously taken with an old lenticular I think is the right word - camera.  Notice the bowing in on the right edge of the picture...

I'm afraid I don't recognize anyone Mike, I was pretty young then. It is a fun photo. I do have pix of some of the principles [McCracken, Omawake, etc] somewhere and I'll try and find them.

If you find these photos, I would be very happy to see them if possible. I discovered Omwake and McCracken faces recently but it would be a pleasure to have other interesting informations about the persons of The Printi-playing Card Company..

[52plusjoker]

I'll try and find time to search on the weekend.

[Cryptocard27]

Hello here!

Have you ever seen somewhere, except in sample books, a Circus #47 deck with the Hippodrome back please ?
Do you think that this back is rarer than the Equestrienne and do you know if these two different backs were issued with the two versions US21 and US21a please ? Many thanks in advance for your help.

[52plusjoker]

Hello here!

Have you ever seen somewhere, except in sample books, a Circus #47 deck with the Hippodrome back please ?
Do you think that this back is rarer than the Equestrienne and do you know if these two different backs were issued with the two versions US21 and US21a please ? Many thanks in advance for your help.

Yes we had a Circus deck with the Hippodrome back and have seen others. The one we have now is the Equestrienne in brown. I think both versions used both backs.

[Cryptocard27]

Hello here!

Have you ever seen somewhere, except in sample books, a Circus #47 deck with the Hippodrome back please ?
Do you think that this back is rarer than the Equestrienne and do you know if these two different backs were issued with the two versions US21 and US21a please ? Many thanks in advance for your help.

Yes we had a Circus deck with the Hippodrome back and have seen others. The one we have now is the Equestrienne in brown. I think both versions used both backs.

Thank you very much for your help Tom 
About this deck, Rod says : "This is a very rare deck even though it was in production for quite a long time. However, it may possibly have been made for children thus resulting in a very low survival rate." Do you agree with that and do you think that it's really difficult to find a Circus #47 deck in good condition today ?

[52plusjoker]

These Circus decks are very scarce in mint or near mint condition - and will sell for c$1000.