Houdini Magic Séance - Poker Playing Card Deck (KS)

[badpete69]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/arsfelix/houdini-magic-seance-poker-playing-card-deck

[Aptombstone]

I love the Ace of Spades, I like the box art, the back design is meh, and I do not like the courts that much.

[rousselle]

I love the subject matter, and the execution is fine. I'm signing up for a couple decks now, but if this gains traction, I'll be adding on the additional variations as they become available. Glad to see this project come back.

[vmagic]

Looks great but he's going with a cheap printer it seems, not even MPC.

[rousselle]

Looks great but he's going with a cheap printer it seems, not even MPC.

If he is, indeed, going with QPC, that makes me want to know: what else has QPC printed recently that we might have experience with?

You have given me pause (but not enough to pull out of the project.)

[Don Boyer]

Looks great but he's going with a cheap printer it seems, not even MPC.

If he is, indeed, going with QPC, that makes me want to know: what else has QPC printed recently that we might have experience with?

You have given me pause (but not enough to pull out of the project.)

I know of a woman who created a large-sized Hanafuda deck using QPC.  Or at least that was the plan, until she kept running into print issues with them, specifically, problems with the proof print matching the colors on the art.  She switched to a company called PandaGM and was very pleased with the speed and results - after the proofs are OK'ed it's a 45-day turnaround plus shipping by sea from China to her base in San Francisco.

The "GM" of PandaGM is "Game Manufacturer" - looks like they cover the gamut.  Cards, boards, paper for items like game currency, plastic tokens and markers, right down to the boxes.

She originally went with QPC because she thought they were an American company based in Florida.  It's sort of true - the have offices there but the actual work is done in China, apparently by one of the less-reliable printers.

[PurpleIce]

This deck looks familiar, as i remember the 2 AoS, and really liked them. Did i see them here in a topic before?

She originally went with QPC because she thought they were an American company based in Florida.  It's sort of true - the have offices there but the actual work is done in China, apparently by one of the less-reliable printers.

Well, he said printed in USA as opposed to printed by a US based company. Maybe QPC has a printer somewhere in the US as well?

[Nurul]

This deck looks familiar, as i remember the 2 AoS, and really liked them. Did i see them here in a topic before?

Yup, I posted about it here http://www.playingcardforum.com/playing-card-plethora/houdini-magic-seance-deck-(ks)/msg82556/#msg82556

It got cancelled. This is a relaunch.

[Don Boyer]

This deck looks familiar, as i remember the 2 AoS, and really liked them. Did i see them here in a topic before?

She originally went with QPC because she thought they were an American company based in Florida.  It's sort of true - the have offices there but the actual work is done in China, apparently by one of the less-reliable printers.

Well, he said printed in USA as opposed to printed by a US based company. Maybe QPC has a printer somewhere in the US as well?

Not to my knowledge.  If they do, it's a recent development.

I just poured through the majority of their website, paltry as it is.  They're still based in Orlando, Florida.  Their mailing address has a different name, just as before: "Playing Cards R Us".  Better still, look up the address on Google Maps and you see it's located inside a small, outdoor shopping plaza, shoulder to shoulder with the likes of Subway, Pizza Hut and "Flame Kebob".  It's very unlikely to be zoned for any industrial use.

Most companies that do their manufacturing in the United States make no bones about it - it's a selling point and they often advertise it; it makes their products seem more appealing to Americans who prefer keeping jobs in the country instead of sending them overseas.  There's not a single mention of where their work gets done.  They mention quality stock from Europe - but that's precisely what the Chinese generally use in deck manufacturing.  I know from someone in the know that Chinese-made pasteboard is generally not up to the same quality standards so it's common to use imported paper from Europe.

[Shebhnt]

I can't find a review on them anywhere.  At least with the other custom printing companies there is some talk on some forum somewhere.  Then again, it seems that they require a minimum of 100 decks according to their pricing list.

I'm also skeptical because the kickstarter page states that it will have "Magic Finish" but I see no where this mentioned on their site or have heard anyone but the USPCC having this finish.  Is there any other companies that offer this?

[rousselle]

QPC's website does refer to printing facilities in the US, as well as "international". They offer pictures of their Roland printers, but they don't offer a location (or, at least, I didn't find one). Their pricing is different for US versus "international" printing, as well.

[Don Boyer]

I can't find a review on them anywhere.  At least with the other custom printing companies there is some talk on some forum somewhere.  Then again, it seems that they require a minimum of 100 decks according to their pricing list.

I'm also skeptical because the kickstarter page states that it will have "Magic Finish" but I see no where this mentioned on their site or have heard anyone but the USPCC having this finish.  Is there any other companies that offer this?

Magic Finish is a trademark used by USPC.  It's not impossible that someone else figured out the formula, but it's not likely since I have yet to see any other company's deck have the same handling characteristics.

QPC's website does refer to printing facilities in the US, as well as "international". They offer pictures of their Roland printers, but they don't offer a location (or, at least, I didn't find one). Their pricing is different for US versus "international" printing, as well.

Ooooh.  I'd like to see that - can you post a link?

As far as printing facilities in the US - I'd be curious as to where, especially since the main office address is in a pocket-sized shopping mall.  It's a single story building and basements are a rare thing in Florida because of the high water table, so there's no way it's there, and if that's the case, why put your office elsewhere?

[rousselle]

This is the link that the project creator lists as QPC, the company that will be printing these decks:

http://customizedplayingcards.com

On the right-most column of the page, you'll see (in a box above the "Dedicated to Customer Service" box) a box with three links that say, "See Our Gallery!", "Our US. Printing Facility", and "Our INTL Printing Facility." All three buttons bring you to their picture page:

http://customizedplayingcards.com/gallery-shipping/

Clearly, different facilities are pictured, both with some interesting printer farms.

Now, I'll note this: for a number of years, I ran a print shop that began its life as an "ASI" (Ad Specialty Industry, an old trade organization for companies that manufactured personalized products and the resellers who repped them) manufacturer. Given the set-ups pictured here, I'd bet you dollars to donuts that this company that you say has an address at a little strip mall (I'm guessing that address is at a Pony Express or UPS Store, or something along those lines) is actually an ASI-style go-betweener who takes orders and then farms them out to their stable of wholesale manufacturers. When I was an ASI manufacturer, I swapped ASI member directories with a retailer (typically, manufacturers would be provided with the ASI directory of retailers, while the retailers would get the directories of manufacturers. By trading, I had the contact info for all of my fellow manufacturers, who were actually my real customers. Long story behind that.). I wish I still had that directory available. Anyway, I do know for a fact that both Gemaco and Liberty Playing Cards both did ASI work -- in fact, I ordered a bunch of Gemaco customized decks for my wedding as party favors (at a very nice price.)

So, in the pics of the "US Printing Facility", you're probably looking at a Liberty or Gemaco or some other US playing card manufacturer who is not USPCC. Given the printers pictured, I'd be willing to bet it's a newer, leaner company than G or L, although it's possible that G or L have modernized their equipment. USPCC certainly has. The equipment pictured for the INTL facility looks older, but also able to generate a lot more output a lot faster, once it's up and running. (And, I may be completely misinterpreting what I'm seeing... and, what they are showing may not, in fact, be what they claim it is.)

Now then, it's been a long time since I've handled Liberty cards, and I don't recall much about them. I've been fine with the Gemaco cards I've handled, as far as all that goes. So, the quality of QPC's cards will entirely depend upon their actual manufacturer.

I'm interested in this particular deck because of the theme and the design execution.  I'm cautiously optimistic that the cards themselves will be fine. But I'm under no illusion that they will be USPCC-quality.

[flyers3003]

Forget about QPC.  From the comments section, by the project creator:  "I'll be posting an update later today with information on the switch of printers over to Expert Playing Card Company. We are going to be partnering with Expert Playing Card Co. and the Conjuring Arts Research Center to make sure this is the highest quality deck and printed in an attractive limited edition! I hope you will continue to support the project, thank you!"

[rousselle]

That is so funny (insofar as I typed my little discourse above only to have it rendered moot.)

Clearly, the project creator is keeping her ear to the ground and working the project to try to make this successful. She listens to feedback, and incorporates what makes sense (without diluting the project). I am feeling more and more confident about backing this.

EPCC? Awesome. A known producer of fine playing cards.

I really hope this project succeeds.

[Don Boyer]

This is the link that the project creator lists as QPC, the company that will be printing his decks:

http://customizedplayingcards.com

On the right-most column of the page, you'll see (in a box above the "Dedicated to Customer Service" box) a box with three links that say, "See Our Gallery!", "Our US. Printing Facility", and "Our INTL Printing Facility." All three buttons bring you to their picture page:

http://customizedplayingcards.com/gallery-shipping/

Clearly, different facilities are pictured, both with some interesting printer farms.

Now, I'll note this: for a number of years, I ran a print shop that began its life as an "ASI" (Ad Specialty Industry, an old trade organization for companies that manufactured personalized products and the resellers who repped them) manufacturer. Given the set-ups pictured here, I'd bet you dollars to donuts that this company that you say has an address at a little strip mall (I'm guessing that address is at a Pony Express or UPS Store, or something along those lines) is actually an ASI-style go-betweener who takes orders and then farms them out to their stable of wholesale manufacturers. When I was an ASI manufacturer, I swapped ASI member directories with a retailer (typically, manufacturers would be provided with the ASI directory of retailers, while the retailers would get the directories of manufacturers. By trading, I had the contact info for all of my fellow manufacturers, who were actually my real customers. Long story behind that.). I wish I still had that directory available. Anyway, I do know for a fact that both Gemaco and Liberty Playing Cards both did ASI work -- in fact, I ordered a bunch of Gemaco customized decks for my wedding as party favors (at a very nice price.)

So, in the pics of the "US Printing Facility", you're probably looking at a Liberty or Gemaco or some other US playing card manufacturer who is not USPCC. Given the printers pictured, I'd be willing to bet it's a newer, leaner company than G or L, although it's possible that G or L have modernized their equipment. USPCC certainly has. The equipment pictured for the INTL facility looks older, but also able to generate a lot more output a lot faster, once it's up and running. (And, I may be completely misinterpreting what I'm seeing... and, what they are showing may not, in fact, be what they claim it is.)

Now then, it's been a long time since I've handled Liberty cards, and I don't recall much about them. I've been fine with the Gemaco cards I've handled, as far as all that goes. So, the quality of QPC's cards will entirely depend upon their actual manufacturer.

I'm interested in this particular deck because of the theme and the design execution.  I'm cautiously optimistic that the cards themselves will be fine. But I'm under no illusion that they will be USPCC-quality.

Granted, this entire line of thought is rendered moot now by the switch to Expert Playing Card Company, but there are a few interesting things to note.

1) The strip mall address for QPC didn't indicate there was a mail-handling/-forwarding company there.  It might have been missed, or it might have gone into business after the photo was taken, but the odds are against it.

2) I can't have been the only one to notice that the photos of the US facility were rather tiny in size compared to the International facility.  It still didn't entirely disguise the fact that the US facility, while more modern, is more like either an undersized warehouse or an oversized garage.  I'm wagering that they only handle the smallest of print runs, leaving the large jobs for the bigger facility, which is probably in China.  Even the people visible are a giveaway - the International plant has a good handful of people in its images, while the US plant has maybe one...

3) Did you know that Gemaco is now a USPC subsidiary?  They're still independently operated, much like the Fournier plant in Spain, but it's USPC that's collecting the profits.  The bought the Blue Springs, Michigan company in 2000.

[rousselle]

3) Did you know that Gemaco is now a USPC subsidiary?  They're still independently operated, much like the Fournier plant in Spain, but it's USPC that's collecting the profits.  The bought the Blue Springs, Michigan company in 2000.

The size of the US facility is certainly smaller than the INTL facility, but I'll bet this printers can still crank out a very large quantity, even if they're probably not as efficient at the huge quantities that those offset presses can churn out.

That said, it's your third item that really caught my eye. No, I was unaware that Gemaco got gobbled up, too. I'm a little taken aback, insofar as I wasn't paying attention. It bothers me greatly that USPCC keeps grabbing up all of the card printers they can get their hands on. I miss Hoyle as an independent competitor. And with the move to KY (even if it was only across a river, really), and the reduction in the kinds of printing processes and finishing options they made available, USPCC is making sure that increasingly, cards made in the US are becoming all uniform. Granted, it's a high quality uniform, but still. Now, it seems we're only going to get really good competition from overseas. I realize that Gemaco wasn't necessarily top of the line, but they did make a decent card. As did Hoyle. Saying that they are still independently operated doesn't make me feel any better. The General Motors off-shoot, Saturn, was independently operated for a while, too. Until GM decided to heck with that, and brought them into the fold for a few years before killing them outright.

At what point does USPCC get cited for violating our laws against monopolies...?

[Don Boyer]

At what point does USPCC get cited for violating our laws against monopolies...?

An excellent question.

They do have competition from multiple companies - it's just that none of those competitors are of the same scale.  And if you include foreign manufacturers that sell in the US, they look a LOT less like a monopoly.  All those makers of lousy dollar-store decks keep USPC from being a monopoly, in addition to a handful of European and South American companies, not the least of which being Cartamundi.

[PrincessTrouble]

I've been trading messages with Erin, the project creator.  Great news: she will most likely be using EPCC instead of QPC.

Andrea, I've started conversations with Expert Playing Card Co. and all signs indicate that we will be using them for this project. I need to seriously revise my campaign text and figure out how to communicate the information, especially to people who may have been turned off by the QPC printers. Its hard to switch horses in the middle of a stream, but thankfully Nat put me in touch with EPCC and it looks like we will be able to print with them. I will send you a message again when I finalize details and revise the Houdini deck project page.

[jwats01]

Just to verify what PrincessTrouble said as fact per the update page of the project:

This project will now be printed by the Expert Playing Card Company.

[S. Carey]

"Ars" is a female and her name is Erin. Just thought I'd clear that up as people have referred to her as a he lol.

end OCD rant but I am sure she would appreciate the correction.

[PrincessTrouble]

"Ars" is a female and her name is Erin. Just thought I'd clear that up as people have referred to her as a he lol.

end OCD rant but I am sure she would appreciate the correction.

Thanks.  Edited my post to fix it for posterity searching this thread. 

[rousselle]

"Ars" is a female and her name is Erin. Just thought I'd clear that up as people have referred to her as a he lol.

end OCD rant but I am sure she would appreciate the correction.

Do you know Erin? Because, I've known both male and female Erins. (I've only known male Aarons, however.)

I've started to update my previous posts, but now that I think about it, a little bit of confirmation would be awesome.

Either way... no offense meant to Erin, whoever s/he be.