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Well hello there!

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Well hello there!
« on: March 03, 2014, 03:17:34 PM »
 

tyl3r

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Hey-oh!

My name is Tyler, i'm not a magician by any means, but do enjoy the odd card trick to impress family and friends here and there. I'm from the great country of Canada, love it, except for the expensive shipping costs to acquire new decks!

I am quite new to collecting, but have recently started up again and like to collect anything that catches my eye. I have been playing cards almost my entire life, (grandparents got me into it) and have loved playing ever since. Once I found the world of Card Collecting I was hooked. Found the forums just browsing the deck trying to find out information on the new decks that have came out recently with the kickstarter boom.

I am currently in the process of trying to design my own deck to get it kickstarted. I have a bunch of ideas but tons of questions. One that maybe someone would care to answer regards the copyrights of old decks. One thing I enjoy doing is using Illustrator to bring old card designs back to life. I was just wondering if there would be any problems in finding an old vintage deck, re-arting it with different colors, etc...? Is that legal to produce on kickstarter?

Thanks for any and all future help I am sure to receive, and I look forward to posting more in the forums!
 

Re: Well hello there!
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2014, 04:41:47 PM »
 

52plusjoker

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Good country Tyl3r - welcome and enjoy it here. You'll find the people friendly and helpful.
Tom Dawson
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Re: Well hello there!
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2014, 02:04:58 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Welcome to the Discourse, Tyler.  It's nice to see that you aren't afraid to ask questions!


I am currently in the process of trying to design my own deck to get it kickstarted. I have a bunch of ideas but tons of questions. One that maybe someone would care to answer regards the copyrights of old decks. One thing I enjoy doing is using Illustrator to bring old card designs back to life. I was just wondering if there would be any problems in finding an old vintage deck, re-arting it with different colors, etc...? Is that legal to produce on kickstarter?

Thanks for any and all future help I am sure to receive, and I look forward to posting more in the forums!

Playing card designs can be protected by two means - copyright and trademark.

First, copyright: under US law, any copyrightable work created in the US before 1923 is no longer protected by copyright and is part of the public domain.  This works out nicely for some of the classic deck designs, since there are many that were created before that date.  For anything created after that date, some research would be needed to determine if they're still protected or not.  For example, the Roger Corman movie "Little Shop of Horrors" was made in the 1960s but is in the public domain because the rights holder failed to file for a copyright renewal (something which is no longer required under law, but was necessary then past a certain number of years to continue protecting one's work).  It's why the musical play version came into being - no royalties needed to be paid, making it more profitable to produce.  Once a work enters the public domain for any reason, it never regains its copyright.

Now, trademark - this is a bit tougher.  Trademarks don't have the same expiration periods that copyrights do, but they do require protecting in a different manner.  A company can use a government-registered trademark in perpetuity with properly-filed renewals, but it has to not allow alterations that dilute the trademark.  USPC has among its many trademarks the unique Aces of Spades, jokers and card backs it uses on its commonly-available playing cards.  Several months ago, the company stopped allowing alterations of these trademark designs, so certain magician's gaff cards could no longer be made but their efforts to defend the work as trademarks would have a stronger legal basis.

What all that boils down to is you would need to find an old deck design that is no longer protected under copyright or trademark law.  They're few and far between, but not impossible to find.  Then you also have to get your printer to agree to make it - for example, if USPC didn't want you to copy an old USPC design, they certainly wouldn't let you print it in their printing facility!  Some smaller facilities may also not be interested just because of the legal hoops they may have to jump through if USPC tried defending their work under trademark or copyright law.

Your best bet would be to find designs from a company that's defunct - not simply purchased by another company, but went out of business.  They must also not have sold off the intellectual property rights to another company.  There are a handful of companies that fit the description, but you'd have to do a good deal of research.  Then there would be no one to make claim to having any rights to the design.

This might help:
http://www.uspto.gov/faq/trademarks.jsp#_Toc275426672
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_copyright_law
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 02:09:55 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Well hello there!
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2014, 04:23:53 PM »
 

tyl3r

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Good country Tyl3r - welcome and enjoy it here. You'll find the people friendly and helpful.

Thanks! May I ask where you like to purchase decks from? Most places I've found on the net, the shipping to Canada is quite high.

Welcome to the Discourse, Tyler.  It's nice to see that you aren't afraid to ask questions!

What all that boils down to is you would need to find an old deck design that is no longer protected under copyright or trademark law.  They're few and far between, but not impossible to find.  Then you also have to get your printer to agree to make it - for example, if USPC didn't want you to copy an old USPC design, they certainly wouldn't let you print it in their printing facility!  Some smaller facilities may also not be interested just because of the legal hoops they may have to jump through if USPC tried defending their work under trademark or copyright law.

Your best bet would be to find designs from a company that's defunct - not simply purchased by another company, but went out of business.  They must also not have sold off the intellectual property rights to another company.  There are a handful of companies that fit the description, but you'd have to do a good deal of research.  Then there would be no one to make claim to having any rights to the design.

Wow, thanks for the detailed response! Most of the decks I was wanting to try and reproduce were pretty unique looking decks, but non-north american.

The Latvian Red-Cross deck. Best info I could find is that it was created by Arturs Duburs, and published by Lettlands Wertpapier Druckerei, in Riga, Latvia. Unfortunately I have not been able to find any contact info, or any website, which I am assuming means they are no longer currently in business.

The other deck just so happens to be the Vannini deck that someone else in the forums just posted about! The best info I can find on that one is located here: http://www.dxpo-playingcards.com/xpo/deck-month/pages/deck-10-12.htm
Again, not sure if that company is still in business, but one would assume not! This one might be the safest to assume there is no copyright/trademark.

Might have to do a bit more research, but info sure seems sparse. Thanks for the welcome, and I look forward to participating in the forums as much as possible!
 

Re: Well hello there!
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2014, 06:12:11 PM »
 

52plusjoker

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Hi Tyl3r
Where in Canada are you located?
We don't buy much anymore so hard to answer your question.
We find if we buy something stateside it's easier to ship to daughter in NYC.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 06:14:53 PM by 52plusjoker »
Tom Dawson
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Re: Well hello there!
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2014, 10:13:37 AM »
 

tyl3r

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Hi Tyl3r
Where in Canada are you located?
We don't buy much anymore so hard to answer your question.
We find if we buy something stateside it's easier to ship to daughter in NYC.

I currently live in London, ON. Yeah, shipping to the States would be easier, but far less convenient. Oh well, didn't think it would hurt to ask around!
 

Re: Well hello there!
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2014, 12:47:38 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Have you tried a mail forwarding service?  Shipito.com is a popular one.  They function as your US address, allowing you to aggregate shipments from several retailers and other sources, then have them shipped to you.  Instead of several costly shipments to Canada, you have several less-costly domestic shipments and one large shipment to you containing everything.

It's worth checking out.
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
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Re: Well hello there!
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2014, 10:07:54 AM »
 

tyl3r

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I have not tried that, thanks for the heads up, will have to look into it!