NEW Egyptian Legends Deck..........

[Anthony]

Would somebody kindly post photos of just what the heck it is they're talking about?  I'd like to give these "marks" a look-see myself and I don't happen to own the decks.

I'm not sure myself Don, I don't remember a marking system being mentioned, but here's a scan.

[HolyJJ]

Yes, it is possible to identify cards... but there's more to the #202 Legends back design than just a card identification system. It's a work of genius!

A few weeks on, and God knows how many thousands of riffle shuffles later, they still handle brilliantly.

I've actually given away my Bee Casino decks to my cousins, because in comparison to the #202 Legends, the Bees feel cheap and 3rd rate.

[bruh man]

Yes, it is possible to identify cards... but there's more to the #202 Legends back design than just a card identification system. It's a work of genius!

A few weeks on, and God knows how many thousands of riffle shuffles later, they still handle brilliantly.

I've actually given away my Bee Casino decks to my cousins, because in comparison to the #202 Legends, the Bees feel cheap and 3rd rate.

They are very nice cards, everything I've purchased from LPCC has been top notch. 

[ecNate]

Dear Nate,

Thank you for your email to us and for purchasing your Legends #202 Egyptian Edition decks. First off, we are more than happy to refund your order if you are unhappy with your decks. We feel for what you pay they are excellent value, 3D foiling, embossing, interior foil, etc. We may print future editions but the first edition will always be a first edition!

This deck has not been advertised as having any sort of marking system, nor do we say they are regulation decks for gaming. These are decks for collectors and card enthusiasts who appreciate quality and exquisite artwork. If you happen to find you can read the backs, then this an extra bonus! While you may have found two cards that are identical, keep in mind there is a lot more to markings than meets the eye. We recommend you pick up Casino Game Protection by Steven L. Forte for an informative read.

Again, we feel the #202 Egyptian Edition of Legends are a hallmark in printing and packaging design. You are free to disagree, and if you don't like your Egyptian Legends deck we will gladly refund your order if you are unhappy with your purchase.

Thank you and stay in touch for some very special releases coming soon!

First, thanks for the prompt reply and I appreciate the refund offer.  However, I personally won't be utilizing it since I also am a collector and they are still nice, so while I'm VERY dissapointed they still have some value to me, certainly more than the hassle of trying to return them. I still think they are very nice from a collector perspective, but was really looking forward to the added features and justified buying a set over other known marked decks because of them being great quality, collector items and great likelihood of being marked.

My main concern was 2 parts, 1) will there be a reprint to correct the issues and 2) are you making plans to improve quality control in the future?  Neither of these were directly answered with any certainty and I'm quite concerned about the quality control on the markings since it took me just a few minutes for me to review them all and for all the markings it should have taken somebody who knew all the details under an hour to validate, but clearly this was not done.  This does raise questions in my mind about the entire QA process and without assurance I would hesitate to buy another deck, especially one in this series.

Also, to state "This deck has not been advertised as having any sort of marking system" is really a cop out.  Clearly it was implied with a wink and a nudge since the earlier decks included markings and it was stated "debuting with this deck are other features to be revealed in coming months. As usual, these decks are full of hidden treasure to discover!" and there are references to magic a few times.  More importantly, it WAS included, but not properly implemented or much of an attempt to validate.

As for "nor do we say they are regulation decks for gaming".  That's almost worse, you can't have it both ways.  I should also point out that they are called "playing cards" and not "collector" or "magician".  I'm not supposed to read into what is said about being marked, but at the same time I am supposed to read in that they can't be used for games?  I would suggest making this more clear in the future for the benefit of others.

Again, none of this is that big of a deal beyond that I simply wanted to know if there will be a reprint and is the lack of quality control prior to printing being addressed.  Your responses caused me to bring up other points, but I'll be keeping the decks.  With time I can make the flawed markings work and yes I have found a few other hidden features.  I also will consider buying from Legends and any in the 'mystery/magic' feature space, but only if I know the concerns over these errors is being taken seriously.  At the moment it seems nobody cares.

[bamabenz]

I believe that the Discource Agent's reply tells us more about LPCC than it does about these playing cards. Its a sloppy piece of work, no matter what you may think about the design or handling of the cards. A hallmark of printing and design...sheeesh. And the bit about special releases coming down the pipe -- will they be as 'special' as this deck?

I don't mean to be snarky, but this response is worse than the original mistake. LPCC is telling us that 'we sell art decks'. Don't expect them to be usable for any purpose other than admiring the pretty tuck.

And then to recommend that we pick-up a copy of a book that's been out-of-print for years and costs several hundreds of dollars used.
Gosh. Just gosh.

/bama

[Don Boyer]

Would somebody kindly post photos of just what the heck it is they're talking about?  I'd like to give these "marks" a look-see myself and I don't happen to own the decks.

I'm not sure myself Don, I don't remember a marking system being mentioned, but here's a scan.

Now I just need a scan of one of the cards in question for comparison.  It doesn't sound to me like there's an intentional marking system in there, but I can't really tell without more of a sample to look at.

The biggest question: does the deck pass the riffle test?  Because that's how the first Legends marking system was discovered.

And then to recommend that we pick-up a copy of a book that's been out-of-print for years and costs several hundreds of dollars used.
Gosh. Just gosh.

/bama

Actually, Bamabenz, that book - and the DVD series - are still considered the standard today for casino game protection.  The DVDs are probably cheaper and easier to understand, since a drawing or a photo doesn't really hold a candle to seeing cheating moves in action.

But, to the point - I see this as being much simpler than is being assumed by some.  EcNate spotted something on his deck and it upset him.  The maker of the deck offered to give him a refund.  Are they being a little "hedgey" when saying there's no advertised marking system BUT they're not "regulation decks for gaming?"  Sure, but the VAST majority of custom decks aren't "regulation decks for gaming," especially if by "gaming" you actually mean "casino gaming".  Legends version 1 had no advertised marking system and weren't regulation either!  Sure, the marks were there, but they only hinted at the existence of hidden features, leaving the buyer to discover them - and leaving non-magicians out of the loop altogether, as it should be.

All we have, it seems, is a discovered, unadvertised feature, one that the company doesn't want to flat-out state as fact because they're trying to keep secret features SECRET.  I might personally disagree with the logic behind the waffling, but I can certainly understand it and respect it.  A magician using such a deck doesn't necessarily want it being advertised all over the place as a trick deck having such-and-such features, because in the age of the Internet, very little information remains a secret for long.

So, guys - this now means you have a "treasure hunt" on your hands!  If you discovered one hidden feature, knowing what was done for the original Legends, there's a fine chance there's more!  Patience and careful examination could reap a nice little payoff of information to the person who finds it.

In fact, I believe I've spotted a pair of possible one-way marks!  And I only looked very briefly at a single card back, the one posted by Anthony!

[Anthony]

All right, here are some of the cards in question.......

[Don Boyer]

So where are the supposed marks everyone all up in arms about?  I'm not seeing any differences from card to card and I can't exactly do a riffle test with a photo.

[shadowkat]

So where are the supposed marks everyone all up in arms about?  I'm not seeing any differences from card to card and I can't exactly do a riffle test with a photo.

Take a look at Anubis. 

[ozfan30]

It is the ripples on Anubis' shoulder. It reads as 10, 9, 8, 8. I haven't figured the suit indicator yet, but the last two are marked the same.

[Don Boyer]

If someone would zoom in and circle the area in question, I'd appreciate it - I'm still not spotting it.

[Card Player]

If someone would zoom in and circle the area in question, I'd appreciate it - I'm still not spotting it.

I don't either. Anubis's shoulder ripples look the same on all 4 cards.  I'm younger then DON, so my eye's are still good. lol

[ozfan30]

Here is one of the sections zoomed in, a bit blurry but maybe you can make it out now.

[Card Player]

Here is one of the sections zoomed in, a bit blurry but maybe you can make it out now.

A marking system so undetectable, even its user wont see it. lol

I still don't see it. I thought the idea of a marking system was to be able to use it without the spectator noticing. If it is there as you say, pulling the cards up to your face to see, gives having a marking system pointless. Easy giveaway!   

[ozfan30]

The 4 lines are assigned a value 1, 2. 4, 8. The top one as you see extends to the edge on both, so the value is at least 8, the next two don't extend close to the edge so you don't add 2 or 4 to 8. But the one on the left (in the zoomed in photo) has the bottom line slightly bolder and extending further meaning you add 1 to 8, so it should be a 9 while the one on the right only has the 8 indicator.

Hopefully this makes sense, it is subtle, but once you know it is there you can notice it easier

[Anthony]

I see it, but no offense to anyone, that's a bit of a stretch on the eyes as a marking system. I'm not much for using marked cards, while I do have them in my collection, but like Don, the eyes are getting older, but unlike Madison's marking system or even the Mechanic's deck, I can see those and SEE the card value without hesitation.........as long as I have my readers on that is, lol.

As mentioned a marking system should just be a question of understanding the system, not a struggle seeing it. Again, no offense, but are people "seeing" something that isn't there?

I'm going to punt on this one, no marking system was advertised, but "Secrets" were...........make of it what you will, the cards are still beautiful.

[Fess]

When you riffle them it looks kinda like the dog is breathing. It's a pretty cool little animation, well I like it anyway. I'm not a magician my card control is no where near that pace and I don't use these for poker. These are strictly for my enjoyment and in my collection. I love the decks though, they're a lot of fun.

[ecNate]

As mentioned a marking system should just be a question of understanding the system, not a struggle seeing it. Again, no offense, but are people "seeing" something that isn't there?

It takes me just a few seconds to read it and another glance to read the suit at natural handling distance.  The system was explained above and is really easy if you understand binary.  I checked every single card and only those that I listed earlier were wrong.  I'm not imagining it, come on now.  Their secret website points to this as well using ribs' and is the same coding as the previous deck.

I like to use custom cards for poker and other games, but using these would mean I'm a cheat and it's quite more difficult to read, decode and then remember which ones are wrong or look for personal mark.  Yeah, they are still nice and serve other purposes, but again the response I got was not acceptable.  A simple "sorry, we screwed up, but will make sure we improve quality and checks in the future" would have been wonderful.  I would have also loved to hear "yes, we will make sure the v2 printed possible later this year will be accurate".  At that point I would gladly BUY another one for use and keep these in the collection, I don't want a refund, I don't need to explain and prove that I'm not making it up.  Mistakes happen, I full understand.  The issue is they know, they don't care.

Agree, the animation can be cool so it is just a new feature I suppose.  Will I enjoy these anyhow?  Yes.  Will I buy another Legends deck or even one manufactured by them?  Not so sure now.   Will future decks have misprinted pips, colors, more serious flaws?  This is even more a concern since they don't own up to the fact that errors were made.

[Anthony]

By seeing, I didn't mean seeing the markings Nate, I can see those, I just meant "Seeing" as in wanting it to be a marking system rather than the animation mentioned, or something else.

Getting apologies for things like this aren't going to happen, especially if they never mentioned a marking system, but I do understand your frustration.

[doubledouble]

IANAM but I think the marking system could be used pretty easily. My vision isn't as good as I'd like it to be but i can pretty accurately identify the value from ~3 feet away and the suit from ~2 feet away. Good enough for up close magic, imo.

[Don Boyer]

By seeing, I didn't mean seeing the markings Nate, I can see those, I just meant "Seeing" as in wanting it to be a marking system rather than the animation mentioned, or something else.

Getting apologies for things like this aren't going to happen, especially if they never mentioned a marking system, but I do understand your frustration.

No, that "animation" is indeed a successful riffle test to detect a marked deck.  The basic system itself is identical to what was used on the first Legends decks.  I'd further wager that the shorter lines below it are indicators as to the suit in question.  The placement is no coincidence, either - the marks look as though they appear near the corners on the long edge of the card, making them easy to read in a spread, a fan or a hand of cards.

The marking system was NEVER a manufacturer-advertised feature of the first deck, and it's clearly not an advertised feature of this deck, though it's indeed present.  It would seem to be something that was meant to be discovered, as were a number of the features included in the first deck - some of which, to my knowledge, were never discovered (or the discoverers kept it secret, for their personal advantage)!

So it's that simple, really - the deck has at least one unadvertised feature.  I know of a few decks where this was the case, including one that was recently told to me that I've NEVER heard anyone else mention anywhere!  The deck in question wasn't the most popular deck made, but my source told me that it does actually conceal a number of secrets, one of which being a marking system.  These things happen and the LPCC official line on this is that they will neither confirm nor deny the existence of this feature - and possibly many others - which means that those who discover them will be the ones who get to use them.

[Msp062]

Do these decks have the same "thick" numbers on one end of the card, like the legends do?

[Magic_Orthodoxy]

from their own website...

The back design is elegant and the Egyptian motif lends itself to a number of presentational possibilities, as well as incorporating some clever systems that may subtly assist the magician in some of his endeavors.

and yes, it has thick and thin pips

[fenderdemon]

The path to enlightenment is dotted with clues.

[Card Player]

The path to enlightenment is dotted with clues.

Only the penitent man shall pass