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Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!

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Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!
« on: April 23, 2014, 08:23:00 PM »
 

Mike Ratledge

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Tom, what can you tell me about this deck? USPCC #500, has 11, 12 & 13 spot cards "for six handed games". I have never seen it before, it's not in Hochman's unless I missed it after scouring three times. These are the seller pix, I expect the deck in a couple of days but was so intrigued I wanted to ask.
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Re: Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2014, 08:42:39 PM »
 

52plusjoker

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Tom, what can you tell me about this deck? USPCC #500, has 11, 12 & 13 spot cards "for six handed games". I have never seen it before, it's not in Hochman's unless I missed it after scouring three times. These are the seller pix, I expect the deck in a couple of days but was so intrigued I wanted to ask.
A bit confusing - made by National long after bought by USPC so listed in National Chapter  - NU13
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Re: Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2014, 09:17:02 PM »
 

Daniel Wilson

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John McLeod's excellent Pagat website has a writeup on this unusual deck.

From http://www.pagat.com/euchre/500.html:

"From the outset, special expanded decks with extra pip cards were made to allow the game to be played by six people. Arnetta Lee reports that she purchased a 61 card deck of "BIJOU" playing-cards made by the US Playing Card Co. Cincinnati, U.S.A, including a joker and 11-spot and 12-spot cards in all suits, and bearing a patent from June 30, 1896. She was advised by the US Playing-card Museum that the 61-card deck was first patented in 1881. The rules leaflets in these early packs envisage a version of 500 played without the joker: two players use 24 cards - 10 each with a two card kitty for each player; three use 32 cards with a 2-card kitty; 4 use 44 cards with a 4-card kitty; 5 use 52 cards with a 2-card kitty, and 6 use 60 cards and there is no kitty. Use of the joker as highest trump is given as an option. In 1897 13's were added to the red suits to make a 63-card pack, and the game was regularised to have a 3-card kitty in all cases."

I've got a 500 deck myself somewhere around here, though I'm unable to lay my hands on it
at the moment.  When I find it, I'll see if it has a different back design than Mr. Ratledge's.
 

Re: Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2014, 08:40:09 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I recognized that back right away.  USPC recently reused it.  They created a two-color version with an embossed and foil-laden box as the first deck (besides the membership deck) made as an exclusive for Club 808 members - the Bicycle Griffin.
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Re: Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2014, 09:32:04 PM »
 

Mike Ratledge

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Tom, what can you tell me about this deck? USPCC #500, has 11, 12 & 13 spot cards "for six handed games". I have never seen it before, it's not in Hochman's unless I missed it after scouring three times. These are the seller pix, I expect the deck in a couple of days but was so intrigued I wanted to ask.
A bit confusing - made by National long after bought by USPC so listed in National Chapter  - No 13th
So, NU13c, actually, since it has the pair of 13 pip cards. I see it now. Worth all of $5!

Don, you are right: very similar to the Grifin club 808 deck, not exactly, but certainly close.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 09:36:34 PM by Mike Ratledge »
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Re: Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2014, 01:59:13 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Don, you are right: very similar to the Grifin club 808 deck, not exactly, but certainly close.

Aside from the color changes and some cleaning up of the image on the Griffin deck, they're the same back.  I seem to recall USPC's Club 808 mentioning that this deck used an old back design that hadn't been seen in many years.
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Re: Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2014, 10:20:06 AM »
 

52plusjoker

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Tom, what can you tell me about this deck? USPCC #500, has 11, 12 & 13 spot cards "for six handed games". I have never seen it before, it's not in Hochman's unless I missed it after scouring three times. These are the seller pix, I expect the deck in a couple of days but was so intrigued I wanted to ask.
A bit confusing - made by National long after bought by USPC so listed in National Chapter  - No 13th
So, NU13c, actually, since it has the pair of 13 pip cards. I see it now. Worth all of $5!

Don, you are right: very similar to the Grifin club 808 deck, not exactly, but certainly close.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!
PS - those prices are out-of-date [2005] and as things get scarcer, prizes edge up!
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Re: Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2014, 10:32:13 AM »
 

athomas16

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I've got a 500 deck myself somewhere around here, though I'm unable to lay my hands on it
at the moment.  When I find it, I'll see if it has a different back design than Mr. Ratledge's.

I have a few of these decks, but I believe mine have the swastika back design.  I too will have to check when I get home.  I've always loved that joker.
 

Re: Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2014, 09:58:19 PM »
 

Mike Ratledge

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I'm still confused after re-reading Hochman because the wording leads me to believe it's NU13a, since the AoS clearly has NO mention of the extra cards, but the description of NU13c says it was when they added two red 13's, which this deck has.  It's clearly 52+J, mint, unplayed and OB1 without question, but - NU13a or NU13c Tom - not that it makes more than $10-$20 difference, but . . .  (and not possible to be 13d, since it has the 'wrong' joker)

Also, the AoS has an 'X' date code, so I'm going with 1917, since I don't think it's 1937, but I suppose it's possible.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 10:45:18 PM by Mike Ratledge »
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Re: Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2014, 11:08:43 PM »
 

badpete69

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Mike.. Talk about a coincidence.  I buy old decks from time to time but lately been lazy about posting about them. Tonight I decided that I should post about my last 2 old decks I bought a few months ago. The first one is sealed and based on the tax stamp, this deck is 1940-1965.  Does it look familiar to you?









 

Re: Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2014, 12:02:33 AM »
 

Mike Ratledge

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Yep, identical, except mine is unplayed but not sealed, so I've got no tax stamp to go by.  The tuck / slipcase is actually in better condition, frankly.  Odd, isn't it?

I'll go with 1937, then?  Surely not 1957, they just didn't make them like that - or am I wrong, Tom?  Remember the tax stamp is per created, not when sold... (although of course it can be overstamped, as was the case with a few in the early 1900's)  The #500 decks in the 50's and later had a completely different almost standard tuck that I know CBJ has - I'm pretty sure it was his deck that I saw.  Much different, similar to a standard cardboard tuck and not a slip-case at all.

Hochman's lists the "MInt" price for this at $20 or $10 depending on which subvariety of NU13 (without letters, or a/b/c; version d is worth about $30).  Both plain NU13 and NU13d have different jokers, which I realize you can't see, but yours could possibly be NU13d, I suppose.  Mine is the 1910's standard version.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 12:13:09 AM by Mike Ratledge »
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Re: Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2014, 08:27:11 AM »
 

52plusjoker

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I'm still confused after re-reading Hochman because the wording leads me to believe it's NU13a, since the AoS clearly has NO mention of the extra cards, but the description of NU13c says it was when they added two red 13's, which this deck has.  It's clearly 52+J, mint, unplayed and OB1 without question, but - NU13a or NU13c Tom - not that it makes more than $10-$20 difference, but . . .  (and not possible to be 13d, since it has the 'wrong' joker)

Also, the AoS has an 'X' date code, so I'm going with 1917, since I don't think it's 1937, but I suppose it's possible.
I am guessing it's NU13c because of the '13' spots. It seems logical, altho I don't remember, that NU13c would remove the "with 11 and 12 spots" from the Ace because of the change to two 13 spots. Not 1957
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 08:28:41 AM by 52plusjoker »
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Re: Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2014, 09:04:21 AM »
 

Mike Ratledge

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Thanks, Tom. This has to be 1937 methinks... A superb quality deck to be almost 80 years old!
> Mike <

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Re: Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2014, 11:40:07 AM »
 

52plusjoker

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Thanks, Tom. This has to be 1937 methinks... A superb quality deck to be almost 80 years old!
Ouch - born in 1937
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Re: Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2014, 12:22:45 PM »
 

Mike Ratledge

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Thanks, Tom. This has to be 1937 methinks... A superb quality deck to be almost 80 years old!
Ouch - born in 1937
Tom, it's a not well guarded secret that I turn 60 in December. I think we both are purring along just fine. :-P
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Re: Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2014, 08:20:15 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Thanks, Tom. This has to be 1937 methinks... A superb quality deck to be almost 80 years old!
Ouch - born in 1937
Tom, it's a not well guarded secret that I turn 60 in December. I think we both are purring along just fine. :-P

Last time I checked, nobody gets any younger...  :))

Just remember that while you do have to grow old, you don't necessarily have to grow up!
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Re: Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2014, 07:34:54 PM »
 

Daniel Wilson

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I finally found my copy of this deck; sure enough, it was in the last place I looked.

My copy comes without 13-spots, oddly enough.  The back is one I don't recognize,
nor is it in the database of Bicycle backs. 

Tax stamps are 2-cent stamps, but printed over them is lettering reading as follows:
"10-4-1917  7 CENTS  USP(C)Co" (the C in the last line is on a missing portion
of the stamp, but can be reasonably inferred.)  Unsure why two stamps were
necessary; any ideas?

AoS code reads "1 17", while the Joker reads "X 167".  If the Joker code is the
same as the customary AoS code, this also points to a 1917 date for this deck.
 

Re: Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2014, 08:05:26 PM »
 

Mike Ratledge

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Yep, that would be the 'b' variety in Hochman's.  That deck has a different AoS as well.  Interesting.
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Re: Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2014, 10:33:53 PM »
 

52plusjoker

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Two stamps for decks with more than53 cards. Not really a Bicycle deck so not a Bicycle back.
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Re: Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2014, 06:13:21 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I finally found my copy of this deck; sure enough, it was in the last place I looked.

My copy comes without 13-spots, oddly enough.  The back is one I don't recognize,
nor is it in the database of Bicycle backs. 

Tax stamps are 2-cent stamps, but printed over them is lettering reading as follows:
"10-4-1917  7 CENTS  USP(C)Co" (the C in the last line is on a missing portion
of the stamp, but can be reasonably inferred.)  Unsure why two stamps were
necessary; any ideas?

AoS code reads "1 17", while the Joker reads "X 167".  If the Joker code is the
same as the customary AoS code, this also points to a 1917 date for this deck.

Tom hit the nail on the head about the stamps - the same applied to two-deck sets.  The second-stamp requirement for a deck over fifty-three cards did NOT include the extra cards, ad cards, or the jokers.  Bridge sets also had two stamps, one for each deck, usually found on the deck's cellophane or vellum wrapping.

The overprint was a cost-saving measure - the US Government had raised the deck tax to seven cents a pack in 1917 but didn't want to waste all the older stamps with the lower rate on them, so they did those overprints to indicate that the full tax at the new rate was paid, but used the old stamps rather than destroy them.

Tom pointed out to me that for "non-modern" decks, if the AoS code is another other than a letter followed by four numbers, it wasn't necessarily a date code.  As far as the Joker code, I couldn't tell you, since most jokers I've run into don't have such codes - it's possible that the AoS code was placed on the joker instead for this deck, perhaps having to do with the larger deck size.  Imagine a slightly larger-than-standard uncut sheet with these cards on it - it's not inconceivable that the Joker would have ended up on this sheet where the AoS would normally have gone if this was a regular 52-card deck.  Another more-likely possibility is that the two codes were used for this deck because the extra cards were printed on a different sheet that bore enough of these extra cards for several decks - maybe the codes were used to match up sheets with extra cards.

If you should get into modern decks, you'll notice the AoS codes have changed dramatically.  These days, the "letter plus four numbers" has been supplemented with a four-digit prefix.  The first two digits are the week of the year the deck was made, while the next two digits are the last two digits of that year.  It's a really convenient method for tracking the age of a deck, but unfortunately most custom decks of playing cards don't use AoS date codes at all, so it will only help with decks that are either standard or created by USPC for their own uses, such as the Club 808 decks and their other custom models that weren't ordered by a third party.

However, that overprint on the tax stamp indicates it was taxed at the 1917 rate - a rate which only lasted until 1919, when it increased by another penny.  So your deck is the same general age as the 7-cent tax - not older than 1917, not younger than 1919.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 06:14:39 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2014, 08:58:06 AM »
 

Cryptocard27

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Here are the scan of my different Five Hundred decks. I hope that you like them..
 

Re: Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2014, 10:54:11 AM »
 

52plusjoker

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Let me re-emphasize the info about the Ace of Spades dating code. Unless it is a letter and four digits on a USPC [or subsidiary's deck] on the Ace of Spades, it is meaningless. Remmeber only the letter has any date meaning.
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Re: Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2014, 11:00:14 AM »
 

Mike Ratledge

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Let me re-emphasize the info about the Ace of Spades dating code. Unless it is a letter and four digits on a USPC [or subsidiary's deck] on the Ace of Spades, it is meaningless. Remmeber only the letter has any date meaning.
Tom, there are a very few exceptions where the code is indeed on the Joker instead - like the airplane identification decks.  They are there because the faces were not the AoS as usual, they were too busy to have that code on them with all of the other (2 or 3) perspectives and writing.
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Re: Bicycle #500 with 11, 12 & 13 pip cards?!
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2014, 11:05:11 AM »
 

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I have a blue and red version with the same back as the original posting. AoS numbers are J 1501 (red deck) and C 1501 (Blue deck).