Asylum Playing Cards Lawsuit

[vmagic]

Can anyone get us in contact with the original artist? If it's true that the artwork is now available, we'd be interested in finding a way to get this deck into print and trying to help the backers recoup at least part of their pledges.

That would be great but as I understand it the attorney general is already trying to get that done via the lawsuit.

[Don Boyer]

Can anyone get us in contact with the original artist? If it's true that the artwork is now available, we'd be interested in finding a way to get this deck into print and trying to help the backers recoup at least part of their pledges.

That would be great but as I understand it the attorney general is already trying to get that done via the lawsuit.

...and what, Victor, does that have to do with Albino Dragon's desire to print the deck as it was meant to be printed?  These guys have a separate forum somewhere where they're likely ALREADY in touch with the artist.  I remember at one point he was commenting in the updates about how he got ripped off the same as the rest of the backers, myself included.

If you mean that the AG is trying to get the deck printed, I doubt that very much.  They'd be more interested in having refunds issued than getting involved with the fulfillment of a playing card project.  While it's possible they might try working out a negotiated settlement that includes Altius Management carrying through on the printing and delivering of the decks, it's more likely they simply want Altius to pay up and shove off - there's no good reason to trust that the company would act in good faith, or for that matter, that they even know what the hell they're doing.  If I sued a horrible mechanic for the work he did on my car, would I want the settlement to include him working on my car AGAIN?  Hell, no!

[Noir-Arts]

Back to the Asylum project is now live on Kickstarter. It is not just about printing the decks. It's about making things right. And fulfilling a lost dream.
Please share this project around and let it see the world, that’s the only way we can make it succeed. Help us to open the gates of Asylum for some great future projects.
goo.gl/wXs6wa

[Don Boyer]

Back to the Asylum project is now live on Kickstarter. It is not just about printing the decks. It's about making things right. And fulfilling a lost dream.
Please share this project around and let it see the world, that’s the only way we can make it succeed. Help us to open the gates of Asylum for some great future projects.
goo.gl/wXs6wa

This is the same company I was writing about here, before Egor managed to cut a deal for his Strange Head Society deck with Gambler's Warehouse.  I seem to recall being pretty underwhelmed by the website.

I'll do you one better - I grabbed a piece of text from their page about the actual printing of the cards on their equipment, then did a quick search for it on Google.  Turns out they stole the text, word for word, from another website!
The original: http://www.madehow.com/Volume-4/Playing-Cards.html
(Proceed to "The Manufacturing Process"; "Printing the Pasteboards")
The carbon copy: http://noir-arts.com/index.php/npcc
Nowhere does the Noir Arts site indicate that this is quoted from another website.

The deck is no longer being made by USPC, but instead by Noir-Arts themselves, so it's a total unknown variable how they'll turn out.  Noir-Arts has a California address - but is based in Ukraine.  You would not believe how many attempts at creating spam accounts here I get from Ukraine.

I invested once, got nothing.  Not going to bother this time out.  There's absolutely nothing about this company nor its website that inspires any confidence in me.

EDIT: I've added screen grabs of the two websites with identical text, just in case Noir Arts tried removing the pilfered text.

[Athanasius]

Hi guys,

For those who don't know me, my name is Milan - I'm creator of Asylum artwork. Some of the guys from this forum, were active participants in basecamp organized against Ed Nash (scam producer of first project), if I'm not wrong.  And I'm very grateful for that.

I'm not here to promote the art, nor trying to convince anyone to support "Back to the Asylum".

I'm here, hoping I would get few good advices.  As an artist.

Don Boyer, I highly appreciate your opinion. Although I'm not active member of the forum, I remember you from the first campaign, and definitely remember some of yours well-intentioned advices, from that period. I appreciate that.

Also, I'm not here to defend Roman (guy behind Noir Arts), but I must share few thought of mine. To be honest, his presentation and website didn't  instil great portion of trust neither, at the time he contacted me.

But, he is the only guy who was ready to offer me second chance, as a producer of project with really bad reputation. Knowing that could harm his firm. I don't know this guy personally. But I've got recommendations for him, from the person I trust very well. It's Max, from "MAx Playing Cards". He was great support during entire saga of Asylum, in last two and a half years.

I'm very cautious about associates, after all disaster with Nash's scam happened. Ed Nash had some serious clients in his portfolio (confirmed cooperation with Clint Eastwood, movie "Identical", comedian Daryl Lenox) , but that wasn't guarantee of his honesty. Turned out that he is professional scam artist, who funds his luxurious life and all that big projects, by small scam projects from a side. That's why I appreciate good recommendation from a friend, more than a fancy website. Don't get me wrong, I can't guarantee for the Roman, neither. But, be sure that I would contact KS administrator and wave with contract, as soon as I notice that Roman violated even smallest clause from it.  And I won't hesitate to sue his ass off on the court, in more furious way than I did in Nash's case.
However, I have no reason to doubt in Roman's good intention, so far. I didn't rush into this. He contacted me in November. I wasn't fond of some of his former projects, nor do I agree with some of his business moves. I knew he screwed up with quality of "Demon" deck, so I waited by now to see reviews of Defunctorum and new projects. And reviews are more than satisfying, so far.
I believe in his good intentions, knowing he is a hard worker who putting real effort.  And appreciate his honesty and transparency - after debacle of Demon deck, he didn't change his account and started from the beginning, although it would be much smarter business move. A lot of people from KS, decide to do that. He is open to his new and potential business partners who have insights of ups and downs of his firm. He would get much better rates based just on printing quality of his Defunctorum decks.

Considering different addresses... Well I suppose it's the same reason why I needed the mediator from the first place. As a foreigner, I wasn't allowed to start project on KS, since I don't have USA (UK, AUS..) social security number.

I'm also not native English speaker. Here and there, I made mistakes. I speak three languages with totally different etymologic roots, and three more based in similar dialects. We, guys from Eastern Europe and Balkan, simply don't think on English. And I know you won't mind if Roman makes some mistakes in unofficial post on forum or KS page, even. However, I agree with you, that kind of mistake is not acceptable on official presentation of serious firm, and publishing company. However, that's still brand in development process. Firm, which don't have hired professional translator, or can't afford him (I'm just guessing), there are just few guys armed with enthusiasm, behind it. Which can't be excuse, but explains a lot.

Sorry for such a huge post, I would talk about artwork in next ones... Because that's the only thing in front of which I can stand with my name, proudly. And I can guarantee for it. I can't guarantee for Noir arts, but point of my post is - I think we are on the same side here.
 
Don, your "accusations" are based on arguments, and I agree with a lot of them, but they can be accepted little harsh. To me, seems that Romans trying really hard. He made some rookie mistakes, but he is trying to made some improvements. And those improvements are obvious on his last products, no one can deny it.

I think he should join this discussion and except some advices, instead of taking them as insults.  Although I understand him. Constant negative criticism can be excepted in quite offensive manner, especially when you are trying so hard.

So, without any pathetic - lets help each other, here. I know that are some pretty good artists in negotiation with Roman, at the moment. It would be a shame that some of great concepts suffer, because of misunderstanding and some personal vanity. It's time to set some things on a right path, or huge effort would be in vain...

[Athanasius]

Considering the art - I worked on upgraded version of the deck, along with all accompanying products for last six months. There's a lot of conceptual pieces and accompanying artwork.

I know there are some hater's theories about "selling the same thing twice", but that's not true.

From my point of view, we're not trying to offer same deck in three different packages. Three offered cases, I'm trying to consider as given option of choosing the case, for the same base funding goal of $5000.
 
Main deck we promote (Back to the Asylum)  is not the same deck.  It's improved version of Asylum. I made changes based on backers' and different forum members' suggestions. The only reason why we included "Asylum" is a gesture of appreciation, and certain obligation to previous backers. There are some people who liked it, and probably never gonna get it. There's more chance to get their money back, than the Original Asylum would be produced by Altius management. Ever.

Besides, I've got developed set of new court cards. Unfortunately, we can't offer it at the moment for the base goal of $5000.  The reason why we didn't set higher goals, or announced new court cards in some higher stretch goals, is because we wanted to avoid theories about our "greediness" by selling same thing twice. I don't want to promise anything, we can't fulfill.

Maybe it's the matter of my obsession, because I was screwed up by Nash in first campaign, but for me now - it's more important to revive the original Asylum as it was, and to finish that story.

I'm in negotiations with Roman, to make some deals which would cut expenses of production, so we would be able to renew at least portion of court cards design, for the same funding goal. And have great story to support new court cards.

As I stated - original version of Asylum would be kept in its original form, but I'm ready for potential improvements on the "Back to the Asylum".

And guys, please, I really don't have anything to do with production and marketing, so I'm competent to talk just about the artwork matters. Hope that Roman would join discussion, too. He could provide you some information about other domains.

However, comments and suggestions are the most welcome...

[Don Boyer]

Milan, I remember the situation you were in regarding Altius.  It was bad.  You were working with a thief.  But how is working with a company that's copying their text from someone else's website that much better?  Honestly, I wouldn't trust a company that does this.  You might be setting yourself up for the same problems.

I mentioned Egor - he was originally going to produce his deck with Noir Arts, but only because he felt that he had no viable alternatives.  I helped him get a deal with another company - his deck is debuting on Kickstarter later this week, produced by Gambler's Warehouse, a reputable company based in Austin, Texas.  They're not the only respected, reputable company out there producing decks for people, either.  You have options.

[Athanasius]

Don, if Roman screw up the campaign, I would end up in real Asylum!!!!

Joking aside... Noir art successfully funded several projects, and received pretty good feedbacks on latest delivered decks.  I know that some serious artist have agreements with them to launch projects after mine is over, and that gives me trust in their intentions. They are trying to form some long term relationships and investing in future reputation of their firm. If they take seriously their business, they should modify that website, too. I agree with you, about that.

Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong about the rest. Time will tell. I'm not primarily in card design business. I hooked up on cards as another interesting media for promoting my art. And it opened me totally new perspective... Since it wasn't my prime domain, I must admit I'm not familiar with publishing houses, and that's why I relied on recommendation of the friend who I trust - Max.

Hope this will not be my last deck, I've got several more designs in development phase.  I'm considering this cooperation as experimental one, and based on success of the project, and Roman's seriousness depends would we continue to work on future projects, or not. At the moment, I really don't have complaints. Time will tell am I right...

[Don Boyer]

If' it's any help to your sanity, you seem to be trending towards a successful project.  Despite the current stagnation, Kicktraq has you trending at 450% of your goal, or nearly $22,600.  If the stagnation persists, however, the trend change will follow suit.



The thing that's bothering me the most about the entire campaign, though, is that he's promising delivery of not one but two decks, for the shoestring budget of only $5,000.  A single-deck project with USPC would ask for more than this, unless the creator was pulling money out-of-pocket to cover part of the costs.  My concern is the solid chance that either the price is very lowball and there's a risk of underfunding, or the quality's not going to be on par with USPC or any of the other more popular deck manufacturers, regardless of any promises made.

[Athanasius]

Well, I would be much happier if Roman would answer this, because this really isn't my domain, but he probably won't join this conversation, if he's not already.

These aren't printed in USPC, and to be honest - USPC got some pretty unreasonable prices, which are based mostly on the brand, instead on real costs. Noir Arts have some exclusive deals with one large European printing company, but I don't have habit to talk about something about I don't know all the facts - and don't want to interfere in their working policy and "behind the scene" deals, between firms.

As far as I know, Noir Arts ordering material of their own, so the costs of printing are lowered, because printing companies covers just the inks. (don't hold me 100% on this, I'm not sure, it's really not my domain).

If I'm not wrong, Chess decks was of the same quality as Defunctorum, although it was funded by far less sum. If you can lay hands on Defunctorum, you can check the quality.

And, be aware - we don't offer two entirely different decks, they differ by some special cards, and portion of court cards (so far), so it is just the variation. The secret behind that, is that Roman ordered some larger sheets, so we can place few cards more. Usually, companies have a stock of standard sheets, because it won't be profitable and they don't have a reason for different type of sheets. People usually make standard decks, with standard number of cards, so it would be pure loss, that large area of sheet stay unfilled.

That's why we are able to offer two decks instead of one. With same backgrounds, which also cut the expenses.

Of course, I would be much happier if I could offer two entirely different designs to backers, but right now, I think this is the best solution. There's no larger sheets than this one. I don't want to raise funding goals because of original Asylum. I won't feel good to offer same deck twice, regardless that scam wasn't my fault.
So, we promote BTTAsylum deck, we raising funds for it, and original Asylum is just a bonus for the people who really liked it, and still want to get it. I think it's fair deal.

Btw., we revealed some new promo art and few new court cards in update yesterday. I would rather discuss about art improvements, since that's the ground on which I'm firmly standing.



 

[Athanasius]

And I must say - these questions of yours Don, are actually pretty great. I'm partially familiar with exact process of printing, but definitely aware what's happening behind the gates of Asylum, so I don't look on the campaign the same way as you do. Probably a lot of potential backers have same doubts as yours, just don't asking. So, this is great way to clear some of those doubts...

[Don Boyer]

Well, I would be much happier if Roman would answer this, because this really isn't my domain, but he probably won't join this conversation, if he's not already.

These aren't printed in USPC, and to be honest - USPC got some pretty unreasonable prices, which are based mostly on the brand, instead on real costs. Noir Arts have some exclusive deals with one large European printing company, but I don't have habit to talk about something about I don't know all the facts - and don't want to interfere in their working policy and "behind the scene" deals, between firms.

As far as I know, Noir Arts ordering material of their own, so the costs of printing are lowered, because printing companies covers just the inks. (don't hold me 100% on this, I'm not sure, it's really not my domain).

If I'm not wrong, Chess decks was of the same quality as Defunctorum, although it was funded by far less sum. If you can lay hands on Defunctorum, you can check the quality.

And, be aware - we don't offer two entirely different decks, they differ by some special cards, and portion of court cards (so far), so it is just the variation. The secret behind that, is that Roman ordered some larger sheets, so we can place few cards more. Usually, companies have a stock of standard sheets, because it won't be profitable and they don't have a reason for different type of sheets. People usually make standard decks, with standard number of cards, so it would be pure loss, that large area of sheet stay unfilled.

That's why we are able to offer two decks instead of one. With same backgrounds, which also cut the expenses.

Of course, I would be much happier if I could offer two entirely different designs to backers, but right now, I think this is the best solution. There's no larger sheets than this one. I don't want to raise funding goals because of original Asylum. I won't feel good to offer same deck twice, regardless that scam wasn't my fault.
So, we promote BTTAsylum deck, we raising funds for it, and original Asylum is just a bonus for the people who really liked it, and still want to get it. I think it's fair deal.

Btw., we revealed some new promo art and few new court cards in update yesterday. I would rather discuss about art improvements, since that's the ground on which I'm firmly standing.

I'm sorry, but all this information you're telling me makes very little sense.  Using a larger sheet to print more cards on it - that doesn't change the need for at the least the basic 54 cards per deck.  Stock sheets have nothing to do with this, and companies only use pre-printed stock sheets for their cheaper brands - for example, USPC uses it for Congress decks only.  They pre-print the faces so they can put any design on the backs they wish, should market tastes change, and they can print them off faster when one side (the side that won't change regardless) is already finished.  It's why Congress decks don't have AoS codes on them anymore - USPC has no idea on what date the deck will be completed, so there's no date coding on the Ace of Spades.

Perhaps it would be better if Roman explained his end of this process.

[Athanasius]

Agree with you, I would like to hear Roman's opinion.

But I think you didn't understood me - I'm not talking about "pre-printed stock sheets". What I tried to say is we don't have two sets of 54 cards (in our case 56). We have basic 56 cards in Asylum deck. Because we founded larger sheet of paper, we can place 66 cards on it. In BTTAsylum deck, not all the cards are different. Just two sets of court cards - Diamonds and Clubs. We have one special card which differs from "X card" of Asylum deck. There is additional card which would be released later, as a part of marketing plan.

But, all designs can be placed on 66 cards sheets. That way, we would be able to print two decks in one print run. There's no 112 different card designs, it' 66 different designs. We won't pay for two sets of printing plates - just for the one set. And quality of paper is the same quality of Defunctorum, as far as I know.

I hope it explains it...

[Don Boyer]

Agree with you, I would like to hear Roman's opinion.

But I think you didn't understood me - I'm not talking about "pre-printed stock sheets". What I tried to say is we don't have two sets of 54 cards (in our case 56). We have basic 56 cards in Asylum deck. Because we founded larger sheet of paper, we can place 66 cards on it. In BTTAsylum deck, not all the cards are different. Just two sets of court cards - Diamonds and Clubs. We have one special card which differs from "X card" of Asylum deck. There is additional card which would be released later, as a part of marketing plan.

But, all designs can be placed on 66 cards sheets. That way, we would be able to print two decks in one print run. There's no 112 different card designs, it' 66 different designs. We won't pay for two sets of printing plates - just for the one set. And quality of paper is the same quality of Defunctorum, as far as I know.

I hope it explains it...

That explains it, somewhat - but it's got to be the most wasteful method for creating two decks I've ever heard of.  You are, if I'm understanding correctly, creating a single sheet of 66 cards, on which there are a single set of spot cards and jokers (42 cards in total) which are identical between the two decks and two DIFFERENT sets of court cards, twelve cards in each set, comprising the courts of the two decks, for a total of 66 card faces.  A single sheet could be used to make one deck OR the other deck, but not both decks - you wouldn't have enough cards.  And that also assumes that all the cards will have a common back (or that you'll be making two different sets of printing plates for the two different backs).

Regardless of which deck gets made, you're effectively throwing away a dozen cards with each deck you produce!  The only way this concept works is if you're selling the extra courts themselves as an "add-on" set for the deck, allowing you to pick and choose one of each of the court cards and create your own court set for your deck out of them - but this is in not more efficient nor cost-effective.  Worse, it requires a custom-designed tuck box large enough to accommodate the base deck AND the extra cards.

I'm telling you, this project is looking to me like a runaway train that is gaining speed as it hits the curve and the motorman doesn't see the broken rails around the bend...  I think your art is great, but this idea for making both decks would give even Wile E. Coyote reason to pause and reflect.

Worse, I now see that in the last 24 or so hours, the project suddenly jumped from being plateaued to just barely over the goal, a difference in funding of over $2,000.  The funding pattern is just too suspicious to me to look natural - it looks like someone created a new account or two and dropped enough cash to hit the goal in order to entice more backing.  If it looks like a (scam) duck, walks like a (scam) duck and sounds like a (scam) duck, it's probably not a giraffe...

By the way, I noticed that there's a special reward tier that's only for the backers of the previous Asylum deck project.  How can Roman tell who backed and who didn't if the project was being run by "Altius Management" and he had no control over the account?  Kickstarter no longer displays the names of backers on the projects they back...

[Athanasius]

Don, please don't take it wrong, but I really don't want to discuss about production and printing techniques of cards, it's really not my stuff... off course, this is public board, and everyone have the right to express their opinion, but until guys from Noir Arts join the discussion, I feel like I'm on trial bench (hope that's the term in English), as their PR. Which I'm not.

Once again - these are not two entirely different sets of court cards - Clubs and Diamonds are changed, as I stated above. Spades and hearts are the same. We throw in few special cards. So, everything can be packed on 66 cards sheet.

If it's my decision I would do entirely new deck, believe me. But this is offered to me from Noir Arts, as the most cost effective solution at the moment. Yes, you're right, there's possibility to throw out a good portion of the cards by placing two decks at one sheet, but printing costs for those (per sheet) are so negligible (few cents), that we can afford it even per every deck. However, statistically it's almost impossible that people order dominantly one deck in favor of other.

Considering "suspicious pattern" of funding. Please, there's no any conspiracy theories, really... Explanation is quite simple - we contacted previous backers. I've got their emails. And just for the sake of possibility of scenario, yes we got fresh income of $2000 - But your assumption that "looks like someone created a new account or two and dropped enough cash to hit the goal in order to entice more backing", sounds pretty... Well, unreliable. Along with 2k income, 60 backers also joined our campaign- from number of 119 to 179, at the moment. It would be pretty big amount of work, that someone create 60 different accounts. And every account is accessible, so you can see history of backed projects. That simply can't be faked.

The good thing in all Nash's laziness is that I had to sort orders in previous campaign. I didn't run the campaign, but I had access to the account from which it was created.  I wasn't to fond about that I have to sort orders at that time (because it should be the job of Nash), but this turned out as a great prize at the end - I kept order tables with emails, and backers'  info. And thanks of that, we pushed Nash's fraudulence  case to the court.
And thanks to those information, Roman would sort out previous backers, from new ones...

Once again, I'm really not here to defend guys from Noir arts. We're not connected by friendship, but by contract. And as long as they respect it - I'm fine with their acts.
I get it - you don't like these guys, Don. And that's perfectly OK, we are all humans. I don't like a lot of people I know, either... It's not normal to like all of them. It means you have a firm attitude. People who like all other people, are not the good people! Because there are some people who provoked hate, by their bad deeds.

But right here, I feel like I put myself between two sides, I respect equally. And that's totally unnecessary situation, so I wold leave the discussion about production, with all due respect for you, and people who follow the forum, and this particular thread.

But I'm open for all discussions regards the artwork, or future projects...

[Don Boyer]

I want to make a few things clear - clear and simple.

You aren't on trial.  Never were.  But I am concerned about the direction this design is taking - that's all.

Anything I stated about the funding shifts and such - pure conjecture.  The only actual fact is that in a single day, funding jumped by $2,000.  Just as there are nefarious ways to explain such a change, there are also perfectly innocent ones as well.  I was taking the role of devil's advocate when presenting the possibility of the more underhanded ways such funding could appear.  In truth of fact, I have no idea where the funding came from.  The only thing I can say with certainty is that it's a funding pattern that I saw once before on a deck project that Kickstarter actually shut down because of funding irregularities.  Though it is a possibility, that doesn't necessarily mean that the same thing is happening here.

You'll have to forgive me if I'm looking at this project with a somewhat jaundiced eye - the original backers, myself included, really went through the ringer on this in their efforts to get satisfaction, and Kickstarter wasn't terribly helpful, merely sympathetic as they counted the fees they'd already collected from a con artist who had just defrauded a few hundred of their members...

If the executive members of Noir Arts would like to come here and give a better explanation of circumstances and situations regarding this project, I'm certain I wouldn't be the only person eager to hear what they have to say.

[Athanasius]

Don, I saw you message in comments section of "Original" Asylum project.

I'm glad that someone still sees overall picture quite clearly. Most of the people are got quiet, after they received their decks. As you said - this guy don't fulfilling the orders because he thinks it is the right thing to do, but because he is forced to do it. And don't think everyone is getting their rewards. Just the people who are potential treat to him...

I still didn't received straight answer, any of my royalties, and which is the worst - not even a single deck I CREATED!

I wasn't aware that he is printing the decks. To be honest, I'm still not sure what happened. As soon as I saw first comment about fulfilled reward, I contacted the guy who posted it. After I realized that rumor is true, and get confirmation from few former backers more, I contacted USPCC directly. Of course, I was quite polite, and generally wanted to draw attention that they are also indrawn in felony of a kind. I sent them Washington's court verdict, few articles, some documents which confirms that I'm the owner of the artwork,  and even copy of the contract between Nash and me, which clearly shows that Nash's license expired in August 27th, 2013.

I asked them when the deck is printed, in which print run, and with who they signed the deal to distribute my artwork, without my permission. I send them two emails with full documentation. And you know which answer I received? Non. They didn't answered on any of my emails.

Yes, in 2012. I set the art for printing with USPCC, but as far as I know it stayed that way. Looks like they just pull it out from their archives three years later, and printed it without my knowledge, and definitely without my permission, as soon as someone asked them to do it.

I really don't understand how firm of such renown, is willing to risk its own reputation like that. Especially by not answering to client. Really serious firm. They are ready to risk they reputation among the artists just because of one small ( I suppose 2.5k print run). Are they really that greedy? What the other artist who submits their artwork to USPCC will say about it? Does that mean that they are so untouchable that they can print whatever they want, without consequences, and regardless of copyrights?

Honestly? I'm tired of all the court processes by now... And I can understand Nash's desperate move to save his butt, but this lack of ethic from USPCC - that's what I don't understand. Don't answering to me, and ignoring my emails is such... Well, Nash-alike.

[Don Boyer]

Don, I saw you message in comments section of "Original" Asylum project.

I'm glad that someone still sees overall picture quite clearly. Most of the people are got quiet, after they received their decks. As you said - this guy don't fulfilling the orders because he thinks it is the right thing to do, but because he is forced to do it. And don't think everyone is getting their rewards. Just the people who are potential treat to him...

I still didn't received straight answer, any of my royalties, and which is the worst - not even a single deck I CREATED!

I wasn't aware that he is printing the decks. To be honest, I'm still not sure what happened. As soon as I saw first comment about fulfilled reward, I contacted the guy who posted it. After I realized that rumor is true, and get confirmation from few former backers more, I contacted USPCC directly. Of course, I was quite polite, and generally wanted to draw attention that they are also indrawn in felony of a kind. I sent them Washington's court verdict, few articles, some documents which confirms that I'm the owner of the artwork,  and even copy of the contract between Nash and me, which clearly shows that Nash's license expired in August 27th, 2013.

I asked them when the deck is printed, in which print run, and with who they signed the deal to distribute my artwork, without my permission. I send them two emails with full documentation. And you know which answer I received? Non. They didn't answered on any of my emails.

Yes, in 2012. I set the art for printing with USPCC, but as far as I know it stayed that way. Looks like they just pull it out from their archives three years later, and printed it without my knowledge, and definitely without my permission, as soon as someone asked them to do it.

I really don't understand how firm of such renown, is willing to risk its own reputation like that. Especially by not answering to client. Really serious firm. They are ready to risk they reputation among the artists just because of one small ( I suppose 2.5k print run). Are they really that greedy? What the other artist who submits their artwork to USPCC will say about it? Does that mean that they are so untouchable that they can print whatever they want, without consequences, and regardless of copyrights?

Honestly? I'm tired of all the court processes by now... And I can understand Nash's desperate move to save his butt, but this lack of ethic from USPCC - that's what I don't understand. Don't answering to me, and ignoring my emails is such... Well, Nash-alike.

It's difficult to jump to conclusions about what happened on USPC's part.  It's possible that they printed the deck while the license was still in effect and that "Nash" simply never distributed it, perhaps intending to sell them or something - who knows?  I can try to make a few inquiries of people I know at the company, see what they say, but in general, their Legal Department scrutinizes every contract and won't let the Custom Department make a move on a design unless they know the project creator is in control of the rights to the art.  They specialize in the fine art of CYA - "covering your ass"!

[Athanasius]

It is possible that order form was filled and signed by Nash in 2012., but I'm pretty sure he didn't paid to USPC at that time.
I'm not trying to necessarily accuse the USPC for stilling, but if Nash trick them to print the artwork which he don't own, he committed certain felony toward USPC firm, too. It's in their interest to cooperate with me. In that case, I don't see a reason for their lack of answers on my emails... I just asked them for cooperation in entire process. Don't you agree that I deserve to know which print run was printed and when, as a deck creator? Especially after I provided them mentioned material and documentation.
I was the one who set the art with them at the time, I'm their client at the end... Ignoring is not very professional attitude toward customers.

[Don Boyer]

It is possible that order form was filled and signed by Nash in 2012., but I'm pretty sure he didn't paid to USPC at that time.
I'm not trying to necessarily accuse the USPC for stilling, but if Nash trick them to print the artwork which he don't own, he committed certain felony toward USPC firm, too. It's in their interest to cooperate with me. In that case, I don't see a reason for their lack of answers on my emails... I just asked them for cooperation in entire process. Don't you agree that I deserve to know which print run was printed and when, as a deck creator? Especially after I provided them mentioned material and documentation.
I was the one who set the art with them at the time, I'm their client at the end... Ignoring is not very professional attitude toward customers.

From the perspective of USPC, whoever signed the contract is the customer, and that's the only person they'll discuss the details of a contract with.  If you want their attention, you'd need to send them a letter from your US-based lawyer indicating possible IP theft or infringement.

As far as payment, USPC will NOT print a deck until full payment is made - it's the company's policy for as long as I can recall, and I've heard the same thing from any artist who's ever worked with them.  They do not print a single sheet until there's ink on the contract and money in the bank, and they never extend credit in the form of completing a job before it's been paid for.

[Athanasius]

Well, Don, I understood that, but my assumption is that Nash signed the contract with USPC in 2012., but never paid full some for it, until 2015.. I'm pretty sure he didn't have intention to fulfill the project, until he was pressured by law enforcement.

So, I suppose that artwork was on hold in USPC's archives, and that they printed it upon his final payment in 2015..
The additional  reason why I also doubt in his intentions and that cards was printed in 2012., is next - we received a lot requests from retailers (even after campaign) to buy batches of 400, or 144 decks, etc.... But he never even answered to them.

Through KS, he sold 2078 decks. Smallest print run is 2500. If he wanted to fulfill project, he could easily compensate a big portion of funds with orders from those retailers, even if his story of run away associate is true. But as I said - he ignored them. For two years, he didn't even log in to the KS account. 

And in case he printed the decks at the time - I also don't see the reason not   to answer to retailers and sold rest of the decks. I mean, what was his possibly do with 400 decks? Open souvenir shop... Hardly...

Guy is a scammer, there's no doubt, and he screwed over the USPCC in a way, probably. He was signed the deal in 2012., but he probably didn't mention that his license expired in 2013., when he fulfilled order in 2015.

That's my assumption...

Regardless of all that, I was constantly ignored by Nash. Believe me, I'm a reasonable guy. We could handle all in more reasonable manner for all of us. But there's obvious lack of communication between him and his client (me), and between him and all the backers. That's not the way to do the business.
People are understandable, if he gone transparent about all, I'm pretty sure he would avoid all lawsuits, if he showed just a little of efforts to fulfill his obligations.

[Don Boyer]

You might not have understood - USPC will not sign the contract, period, until payment is made.  No cash, no contract, period.  He can't have made the arrangements three years ago and kept them on hold all this time.  In addition, the turnaround time for a deck at USPC today is at least eight weeks, due to the volume of projects they're working on at any given time.

Present print run minimums are 2,500 - but at the time this project was made, wasn't USPC still using a 5,000-deck minimum?  It lowers the per-deck cost but raises the overall cost.

The only way to know when the deck was made without direct inquiry through lawyers would be to look at the copyright information that they print on the bottom of the box, something they've been doing since the factory moved in 2009.  The copyright date will typically be in the year the deck was printed.  If they printed after the license lapsed, then you'd have a case against USPC, but otherwise, I think your case would be solely against Nash.  (Bear in mind I'm not a lawyer and this can't be considered legitimate legal advice - only a lawyer can give you that.)

[BastianBJ]

Sorry for bumping up an old post like this one, however I just got a message from Ed Nash at Kickstarter. Seems like he is sending all backers this message, thought you guys should read it, if any of you are a backer, or just interested

1st message, Feb. 1:

Dear Asylum backers,

As you are probably aware, many of the fulfillments have started to go out. I have always stated that this project would be fulfilled, and that has always been the intent, despite the delays. I am both happy and relieved to say that we are entering the final phase of fulfillment, and rewards to all remaining backers will be shipping over the next several days, and all remaining backers should receive their rewards within the next month. Due to the delays in this project, I’d like to ask everyone to check the shipping address they provided to the project surveys, and please make updates if your address has changed within the next 48 hours. I’d like to again thank everyone for backing this creative, speculative project, for having patience with the timetable, and for having faith in Kickstarter and the idea of crowdfunding.

Sincerely,
Ed Nash

2nd message, Feb. 1:

FOLLOW-UP:
As I am receiving a lot of messages and questions regarding the previous message, if you need to update your address, please do so by updating the project Survey. I have made them all updatable, and it will speed the process along so that I can reimport and update everything at once in the database for shipping. Thank you!

Sincerely,
Ed

3rd message, Feb. 1:

Several backers have asked about how to update their address that they submitted, so here is some helpful direction from Kickstarter:

How can I view or change my survey responses?

If you’ve already submitted your backer survey, you can review your response by visiting the project page and clicking the 'Your response' text in the bottom of the reward tier you selected.

If the creator of this project has enabled address changes (I have), you’ll notice an option at the top of this modal that will allow you to change your shipping information.

[Don Boyer]

There's been a fair amount of activity on this.  There was a Washington State Attorney General that took him to court and received a judgment against him far exceeding the money he "earned" in his Kickstarter - and that AG was only representing a small portion of all the affected backers, throwing the doors open to AGs from the other 49 states chiming in with their own lawsuits.  So Nash got off his ass, got the deck made somehow and started shipping it - I received mine some weeks ago.  My details on this are sketchy but I'm sure a quick Google search of "Ed Nash Kickstarter lawsuit" will kick out some newspaper articles on it.

Here's just a few...
http://www.polygon.com/2014/5/2/5675834/washington-sues-card-game-developer-for-failing-to-deliver-on
http://www.geekwire.com/2015/washington-state-orders-kickstarter-campaign-to-pay-back-funders-for-not-delivering-the-goods/
http://www.geekwire.com/2014/attorney-general-asylum-playing-cards-crowdfunded-project/

I suspect it's only a matter of time before tighter regulations of crowdfunding finally come into play, requiring the hosts to better vet the project creators and be in some way liable for their action if they're negligent.  Right now, it's like the Wild West, like eBay was in the early days when people got scammed frequently - these days it's rather uncommon because of the protections eBay put into place to protect shoppers and make the marketplace more user-friendly.  Without those protections, eBay wouldn't have survived as consumers were starting to stay away in large numbers.  Kickstarter and others need the same protections for their project backers.