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Tenebre Limited Signature Series by 4PM Designs (KS)

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Tenebre Limited Signature Series by 4PM Designs (KS)
« on: May 02, 2014, 07:51:38 PM »
 

badpete69

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« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 12:16:31 AM by Don Boyer »
 

Re: Tenebre Playing Cards Limited Signature Series KS coming May 5th
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2014, 12:32:56 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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From 4PM design



When oh when will they learn - this is NOT STANDARD TIME!  It's noon Eastern DAYLIGHT Time!

Cool-looking deck, though.  Let me guess - Expert PCC?
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Re: Tenebre Playing Cards Limited Signature Series KS coming May 5th
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2014, 03:29:45 PM »
 

HolyJJ

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Even I'd like to know the answer to the same question as what Don is asking... is it going to be with EPCC?

The sideways tuckbox is what makes me ask.

Either way, quite a spectacular looking back design!
With this signature I'm following the example set by Fes: There is only ONE letter L in my display name. "Holly" is a female name... and I'm a bearded guy who's into weightlifting. There's nothing feminine about me brother!
 

Re: Tenebre Playing Cards Limited Signature Series KS coming May 5th
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2014, 01:16:10 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Even I'd like to know the answer to the same question as what Don is asking... is it going to be with EPCC?

The sideways tuckbox is what makes me ask.

Either way, quite a spectacular looking back design!

USPC has done only one recent tuck box in that style - the Bicycle Espionage deck for Club 808 - but it was a design they've used a number of times in the past.  I have a pack of Cadets miniature cards that have a side-loading tuck and are about a century old, courtesy of Mr. Dawson.

Point being, it could still be a USPC print job.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 01:16:34 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Tenebre Playing Cards Limited Signature Series KS coming May 5th
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2014, 08:24:59 AM »
 

HolyJJ

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USPCC have done only one sideways tuck? I thought that gold/private reserve S&M deck was also a USPCC deck.

I do know that USPCC have done sideways tucks... however, their opening flap and the EPCC opening flaps are notably different.

The one in the photo for this Tenebre deck looks a lot more like the EPCC sideways tuck than the Espionage tuck.

Still, until someone in the know confirms it for sure, it'll be only guesswork from us guys over here.
With this signature I'm following the example set by Fes: There is only ONE letter L in my display name. "Holly" is a female name... and I'm a bearded guy who's into weightlifting. There's nothing feminine about me brother!
 

Re: Tenebre Playing Cards Limited Signature Series KS coming May 5th
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2014, 07:56:44 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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USPCC have done only one sideways tuck? I thought that gold/private reserve S&M deck was also a USPCC deck.

I do know that USPCC have done sideways tucks... however, their opening flap and the EPCC opening flaps are notably different.

The one in the photo for this Tenebre deck looks a lot more like the EPCC sideways tuck than the Espionage tuck.

Still, until someone in the know confirms it for sure, it'll be only guesswork from us guys over here.

I'd forgotten about that Dan and Dave deck - I stand corrected.

Again, it's something they did a fair amount of in the past but not so much recently.
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Re: Tenebre Playing Cards Limited Signature Series KS Now Live
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2014, 12:06:25 PM »
 

badpete69

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Now live.. Details in OP
 

Re: Tenebre Playing Cards Limited Signature Series KS Now Live
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2014, 12:54:56 PM »
 

BeDoubleYou

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$18 for one deck?

As beautiful as I think the red color and the backs of the cards are, I'm gonna have to pass on this one.
 

Re: Tenebre Playing Cards Limited Signature Series KS Now Live
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2014, 01:35:32 PM »
 

ruicorreia

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$18 for one deck?

As beautiful as I think the red color and the backs of the cards are, I'm gonna have to pass on this one.


I agree... rather expensive.
As more decks are being printed in EPCC, it's a reality that they are getting more expensive.
Is this the future of collecting cards, paying 20 dollars or more for a deck? If it is, something is about to change, probably the buying habits of the collectors. Let's see!
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Re: Tenebre Playing Cards Limited Signature Series KS Now Live
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2014, 01:44:26 PM »
 

BeDoubleYou

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There are still plenty of decks that are of great design and collecting value that cost less than $18 per deck. The Exquisite Bolds were $12/ per deck, the Uusi Hotcakes are $11/ deck.

Honestly, exclusivity is the only reason that $18 seems reasonable and candidly, I don't feel like thats a good enough reason.

Like I said, it's a very nice deck but it isn't $20 good.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2014, 01:46:20 PM by BeDoubleYou »
 

Re: Tenebre Playing Cards Limited Signature Series KS Now Live
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2014, 01:50:42 PM »
 

HolyJJ

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I love the design. I like the fact that the courts are still pretty much traditional.

However, I don't love the price. With awesome decks such as the egyptian Legends and the LUXX coming up in the next few months, I'd rather put my money aside to geta few bricks of them instead of half a brick of these.
With this signature I'm following the example set by Fes: There is only ONE letter L in my display name. "Holly" is a female name... and I'm a bearded guy who's into weightlifting. There's nothing feminine about me brother!
 

Re: Tenebre Playing Cards Limited Signature Series KS Now Live
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2014, 01:55:22 PM »
 

Rob Wright

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Quote
Included with every deck will be a custom pack jacket. Made in collaboration with the LPCC & EPCC (Expert Playing Card Company) these fantastic packs will help protect your decks while adding to its design. Each pack jacket will contain foil printing and be signed then numbered by hand.


Might explain the pricing, somewhat.

Still too much for me. They should give a choice as to add the pack jacket.
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Re: Tenebre Playing Cards Limited Signature Series KS Now Live
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2014, 02:11:35 PM »
 

BeDoubleYou

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It mentioned something about having decks for sale on the LPCC website without the pack jackets but probably will cost the same or more as the Kickstarter campaign version, I would imagine.
 

Re: Tenebre Playing Cards Limited Signature Series KS Now Live
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2014, 04:27:27 PM »
 

BiggerDee

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Well, personally, I like them a great deal and the price doesn't rub me the wrong way so I'm in for some. I'm buying them only because I like them. As a collector, exclusivity doesn't mean anything for all but just a handful of decks. Exclusivity and market desirability go hand in hand to determine price. I could make a limited run of 12 decks but since I have little, if any, artistic skills, my mega-exclusive run would be worthless. I understand everyone's opinion, and this is merely my viewpoint for a bit of a different angle.
 

Re: Tenebre Playing Cards Limited Signature Series KS Now Live
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2014, 04:46:40 PM »
 

BeDoubleYou

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I think they look great, don't get me wrong. And I'm not upset that people would pay $18 for a deck. They wouldn't sell them at that price point if people weren't going to buy them. If you like the style of the cards and you have the money to spend on them, then go ahead. I won't stop you (especially because I think they look really cool) I just have a somewhat limited budget.
 

Re: Tenebre Playing Cards Limited Signature Series KS Now Live
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2014, 08:54:44 PM »
 

Sher143

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When I saw the price of these, I actually thought it was a pretty good price, especially since it included a pack jacket, too. Maybe it's because I was comparing the $18 price with that of Zenith, which was $20. Zenith didn't even have a pack jacket included and I thought the $20 price point was fair enough. Maybe this was due to the Zenith tuck's absolutely gorgeous design. Heck, Paul could have charged $30 or more for that deck and I still would have bought it... And I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one.

Anyway, I'm just curious as to why this deck is getting dinged for the price, when another deck that was just recently released (from the same manufacturer) was priced in the same range and it's price was hardly an issue with anyone. I would understand if maybe this design has less features, but it seems like they're putting this out with foil, too. Does it come down to design? I would admit that I do like the Zenith more in terms of design, but then again I've always been a fan of Paul's designs and I figured that since people have different taste, the Tenebres deck probably appeals to others just as much as the Zenith deck appeals to me.

Also, I realize that the price of this deck can be considered expensive when comparing it to CARC's EPCC decks, such as the Exquisite or even the Exquisite Bold. However, I always expect a deck from an independent designer to cost much more than a deck from one of the large companies. Theory11's tuck boxes are gorgeous and usually made from special stock and full of metallic inks and foiling, yet they usually cost $6.95, whereas Rick Davidson's Origins deck, which has a comparable tuck box, costs twice as much and that seems totally understandable because he can't offset the costs of printing the deck like Theory11 probably can.

A comparable USPCC deck would cost approximately $10 if it was from Theory11, but if it was from an independent designer, probably around $12-$15. When considering the limited runs, it's even more likely to go up even higher. The highest I've seen - and they were tuck swaps - were $25 on Kickstarter, and one that wasn't a tuck swap was $40.

It's really looking to me like the design is what affects how people react to the price. Although I admit I am not as taken by this design, I think the artwork was done well and I'm sure it'll find its audience. It'll get funded in a few hours.
 

Re: Tenebre Playing Cards Limited Signature Series KS Now Live
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2014, 09:11:45 PM »
 

BeDoubleYou

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Well, I agree with a lot of your points, but charging $20 for Zenith is one thing because it's Paul Carpenter selling it to me. The problem with this pricepoint is, Paul Carpenter has a name that holds a lot of weight. If the deck were being made by a really prestigious independent producer, I'd be more inclined to agree that this is something that is fine. Plus, I'm in a somewhat limited price range because I don't have a very high budget. I guess that's why I'm opposed to the price.

The point I was trying to make is, it is a very nice deck. I have absolutely no doubt that these will sell like hotcakes. I just personally don't have the budget to afford a couple of these if I want to buy a brick of the next Uusi deck or LUXX or any of the other projects right on the horizon.

And for the record, I'm buying my Zenith after the fact from a collector who was nice enough to sell me one of his. And I paid more than $20 plus shipping from overseas to get it back here to me in the States. And I'm HAPPY to pay it for a deck made by Paul. Like you said, his decks are great. I'm especially happy to pay that because I have all of his other decks (except Tendril, REALLY want one of those) and they are prizes in my collection.

My only regret is that I opted to get incredibly sun burned in Naples instead of checking in to see when Zenith was going on sale.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2014, 09:15:18 PM by BeDoubleYou »
 

Re: Tenebre Playing Cards Limited Signature Series KS Now Live
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2014, 09:34:06 PM »
 

Sher143

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I understand your point.  :) If you're looking for tendrils,  try contacting Angel_Magic (mod of the STISO board).  He is selling some,  and last I checked he had more than a brick available though I don't know how many more since it seems that several people have been looking for tendrils lately,  and I've directed more than one person to him...
 

Re: Tenebre Playing Cards Limited Signature Series KS Now Live
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2014, 12:13:38 AM »
 

PurpleIce

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I guess decks are starting to have "designer" brands like in the fashion industry, more distinctively than previous years. Among the top few in the lists would probably be (not limited to) designers like Jackson, Uusi, Paul, which most of us are familiar of.

I won't say if 4PM Designs are well known or not in the playing card industry, but they have decks under their name (I guess mainly the "Grid" series since "Legacy" failed more due to what i would think is poor project planning rather than bad design). But likewise, not many of us would buy a handbag or a T-shirt, even though they have a good design and made from the same factory, for the price of what a Hermes or a LV bag would be selling without the branding. I guess it is not as obvious now because $12 to $20 is still an affordable range difference as compared to $120 to $2000.

The fact is, and i think shown to some extent here, that without going into the details of design, just the name of the designer (or the "brand") can already command a much higher price easily. That's why, as much as the design may be good, without the branding, it is still considered an "expensive" deck.
 

Re: Tenebre Playing Cards Limited Signature Series KS Now Live
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2014, 06:43:07 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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The part that's killing me about all this "limited edition" nonsense and exclusivity is that I know that EPCC/LPCC makes cards for less than a comparable deck from USPC - in fact, I'd even say the EPCC/LPCC deck is of better quality and at a lower price.  I'll grant that the Blue Crown buys in larger print runs than companies like 4PM designs, but their NOC deck is being printed with EPCC because if they didn't, they would have had to raise the price.  USPC had a rate increase not long ago, it seems...

Artists are picking a price because they think that's how much they can sell it for - and they're right to do so, certainly; I wouldn't begrudge an artist from getting his due based on the quality of his artistry.  But those decks are pushing that market bubble we keep hearing about, stretching the skin of it further and further as if there was no end to the market's elasticity.  We're reaching a point where speculators will enter the market not because they appreciate playing cards but because they appreciate valuable limited runs with high resale values.  High-design collectors will also start getting in on the action to a greater degree than they already are - to them, a $20 pack of cards in a unique, artistic style is a drop in the bucket compared to the thousands they might spend on other home furnishings.  They'd pay that price without even blinking.

At some point, that bubble will burst, and people who paid $18 for a deck they couldn't sell for $5 after the crash aren't going to be happy campers.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 06:43:41 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Tenebre Playing Cards Limited Signature Series KS Now Live
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2014, 09:39:32 AM »
 

BeDoubleYou

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Although I will admit those pack jackets are pretty phenomenal. I hope they do more EPCC (or is it LPCC?) decks that include those. Although its one of those box inside of a box deals.
 

Re: Tenebre Playing Cards Limited Signature Series KS Now Live
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2014, 02:16:45 PM »
 

BiggerDee

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Another point to consider is that most KS decks include shipping in the price. If shipping goes up by a dollar, then the effective price listed would too. Add additional funds for good packing materials, as opposed to tossing thim into a bubble envelope as a lot of KS creators used to do, and that plus increased postage, can inflate the "per deck" price beyond what it was in the old days. I think that many creators pad the price a bit more to give themselves breathing room. There are a few KS decks that were apparently produced, but the creator didn't have enough funds to ship them due to razor-thin margins. If the creator needs the padding, it's there. If not, then they make a bit more profit. Just think about how many creator hours are involved in a project! Design may turn out to be the least of the hours when you consider talking with USPCC (or LPCC), sending proofs and the like abck and forth, reading/signing contracts, unboxing the shipment, organizing decks, making trips for packing supplies, countless evening and weekend hours getting everything together and packaged, handing the hundreds of "When will my XX arrive??" questions, dealing with damaged shipments, and the list goes on and on. Heck, hats off to creators, especially those who have multiple successful projects, for a LOT of hard work! It boggles the mind. With that said, $18 may be more than other decks, but it's less than others that I have seen. I've bought very inexpensive decks all the way up to Laser-Cut Aurum decks and everything in between. If i think that a deck isn't a good value, I simply don't buy it. If it's overpriced, but I still must have it, I suck it up, buy it, and enjoy my purchase. Not all decks fit everyone, whether it's design or price, and that's fine.
 

Re: Tenebre Playing Cards Limited Signature Series KS Now Live
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2014, 03:33:35 PM »
 

BeDoubleYou

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I've bought very inexpensive decks all the way up to Laser-Cut Aurum decks and everything in between. If i think that a deck isn't a good value, I simply don't buy it. If it's overpriced, but I still must have it, I suck it up, buy it, and enjoy my purchase. Not all decks fit everyone, whether it's design or price, and that's fine.

This is what my point was. I completely agree with you. And I see your point about shipping.
 

Re: Tenebre Playing Cards Limited Signature Series KS Now Live
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2014, 12:50:08 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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At one time, and not long ago, people came to get decks on Kickstarter because they were CHEAPER here than at retail.  That's certainly not the case any longer, and begs the question for some, "Why buy it here when I can buy it at retail, use a coupon code, get a bunch of other decks to go with it and end up spending less?"  The incentive creators make are the "Kickstarter only" versions, but that's only going to get you so far.  At some point, people will want their decks at retail and the floor will fall out of the KS card market, and when those decks don't end up getting made, the retail market will suffer a similar though less severe fate.  There's only a few creators here who could weather such an event, creators with either excellent quality work, their own major retail outlet or both.

At one time, people were buying everything that came out, largely because there wasn't a whole lot to choose from.  Kickstarter arrived, and suddenly the entire market's blown up - whereas at one time four deck projects at once was a big deal, nowadays there's upwards of two dozen projects up and running at any given point.  Buyers are getting pickier, however.  Even the die hard Bicycle fanatics are asking themselves if they really do need this version or that version, especially when the uniqueness of the "versions" is only tuck-box deep.  That, plus the fact that USPC's been letting the brand appear on a lot of really bad decks - it's really watered down the brand's value and continues to do so with each bad deck (and with each awesome one that skips the brand name game altogether).

It would be great if there were so many people coming into the hobby to insure the status quo goes on forever.  People said the same things about comic books, sports memorabilia, real estate, etc. - look where they ended up.  At some point, a critical mass is reached, people stop adding more cash to the market beyond a certain amount, and if the people making decks aren't keeping a finger on the pulse, they may end up simply tossing out more decks to end up as fuel on the fire.

I'm the last person to knock EPCC or LPCC - they do awesome work.  But I know what the costs are, and a deck like this could go for so much less.  One might argue that there'd be less money to be made at the lower price point.  Assuming nothing else changes, yes, that would be correct.  But if you were an artist seeking to make a buck in the playing card business, let's picture two scenarios.

Scenario #1: I order a 1,000-deck print run, sell about 900 of it and charge $18 a pack with shipping.  The grand total I can take in would be not one cent more than $16,200.  It leaves a pent-up consumer demand, making consumers unhappy about your product, because only a small number of people will buy it at retail - could be as few as 150 if everyone maxed out to the limit available to them, but let's assume the average is half of that, resulting in 300 customers.  Anyone else wanting it has to pay aftermarket prices, which for a deck that rare could go double to quadruple the retail cost - dollars that you never get to see because it's the aftermarket, unless you get real sneaky and liquidate some portion of the decks you held back.

Scenario #2: ! order a 2,500-deck print run, selling 2,400 decks at $9 each with shipping.  This grand total is higher, $21,600.  Better still, more of it is profit because the larger print run cost less money per deck.  My consumers are a bit happier because more of them were able to obtain the deck at a reasonable retail price, and the aftermarket price won't go to dizzying heights because there's more to go around (again, it doesn't matter what the aftermarket is other than in terms of keeping the deck affordable enough for most people - you don't see any of it unless you liquidate some portion of the held-back stock).  You now would have enough decks in circulation that a quantity cap wouldn't necessarily be needed.  The aftermarket price would be a slight premium, probably not more than one-and-a-half to two times the retail price until the deck starts drying up in the aftermarket and becomes harder to find, usually after several months have past.

Scenario #1 satisfies one type of person above all else: the aftermarket seller.  One can argue that a larger print run will take longer to sell out, etc., but if your work is good enough, you'd sell out in either scenario and not in a great deal of time - quality is the key for this type of product and this type of market.  The problem is that's the same exact type of person who's going to drive a stake into that market bubble.  Why any artist would want to cater to the needs of the speculators is beyond me.

And for all interested, I'm saying now that I didn't have a particular deck or designer in mind when I made the scenarios - they're both completely hypothetical.
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Re: Tenebre Playing Cards Limited Signature Series KS Now Live
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2014, 03:06:27 AM »
 

PurpleIce

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At one time, and not long ago, people came to get decks on Kickstarter because they were CHEAPER here than at retail.  That's certainly not the case any longer, and begs the question for some, "Why buy it here when I can buy it at retail, use a coupon code, get a bunch of other decks to go with it and end up spending less?"  The incentive creators make are the "Kickstarter only" versions, but that's only going to get you so far.  At some point, people will want their decks at retail and the floor will fall out of the KS card market, and when those decks don't end up getting made, the retail market will suffer a similar though less severe fate.  There's only a few creators here who could weather such an event, creators with either excellent quality work, their own major retail outlet or both.

At one time, people were buying everything that came out, largely because there wasn't a whole lot to choose from.  Kickstarter arrived, and suddenly the entire market's blown up - whereas at one time four deck projects at once was a big deal, nowadays there's upwards of two dozen projects up and running at any given point.  Buyers are getting pickier, however.  Even the die hard Bicycle fanatics are asking themselves if they really do need this version or that version, especially when the uniqueness of the "versions" is only tuck-box deep.  That, plus the fact that USPC's been letting the brand appear on a lot of really bad decks - it's really watered down the brand's value and continues to do so with each bad deck (and with each awesome one that skips the brand name game altogether).

It would be great if there were so many people coming into the hobby to insure the status quo goes on forever.  People said the same things about comic books, sports memorabilia, real estate, etc. - look where they ended up.  At some point, a critical mass is reached, people stop adding more cash to the market beyond a certain amount, and if the people making decks aren't keeping a finger on the pulse, they may end up simply tossing out more decks to end up as fuel on the fire.

I'm the last person to knock EPCC or LPCC - they do awesome work.  But I know what the costs are, and a deck like this could go for so much less.  One might argue that there'd be less money to be made at the lower price point.  Assuming nothing else changes, yes, that would be correct.  But if you were an artist seeking to make a buck in the playing card business, let's picture two scenarios.

Scenario #1: I order a 1,000-deck print run, sell about 900 of it and charge $18 a pack with shipping.  The grand total I can take in would be not one cent more than $16,200.  It leaves a pent-up consumer demand, making consumers unhappy about your product, because only a small number of people will buy it at retail - could be as few as 150 if everyone maxed out to the limit available to them, but let's assume the average is half of that, resulting in 300 customers.  Anyone else wanting it has to pay aftermarket prices, which for a deck that rare could go double to quadruple the retail cost - dollars that you never get to see because it's the aftermarket, unless you get real sneaky and liquidate some portion of the decks you held back.

Scenario #2: ! order a 2,500-deck print run, selling 2,400 decks at $9 each with shipping.  This grand total is higher, $21,600.  Better still, more of it is profit because the larger print run cost less money per deck.  My consumers are a bit happier because more of them were able to obtain the deck at a reasonable retail price, and the aftermarket price won't go to dizzying heights because there's more to go around (again, it doesn't matter what the aftermarket is other than in terms of keeping the deck affordable enough for most people - you don't see any of it unless you liquidate some portion of the held-back stock).  You now would have enough decks in circulation that a quantity cap wouldn't necessarily be needed.  The aftermarket price would be a slight premium, probably not more than one-and-a-half to two times the retail price until the deck starts drying up in the aftermarket and becomes harder to find, usually after several months have past.

Scenario #1 satisfies one type of person above all else: the aftermarket seller.  One can argue that a larger print run will take longer to sell out, etc., but if your work is good enough, you'd sell out in either scenario and not in a great deal of time - quality is the key for this type of product and this type of market.  The problem is that's the same exact type of person who's going to drive a stake into that market bubble.  Why any artist would want to cater to the needs of the speculators is beyond me.

And for all interested, I'm saying now that I didn't have a particular deck or designer in mind when I made the scenarios - they're both completely hypothetical.

Yes. That! Designers now always look at the short term, getting the fast quick buck out of KS. They are not even calculating if producing more at a cheaper price could end up earning more, because they do not want to take a slightly longer time to sell out.

Fact is, like what Don said, i know of quite a number of collectors who stopped or become extremely picky when choosing decks, especially with international shipping involved. E.g. A $15 deck + $12 int shipping is still $27 a deck. Why not wait for others who can now sell decks from so many different projects? Sure it could cost $20 a deck, but overall int shipping will be so much cheaper to get decks from different projects that it might still work out to cost the same.