The Goonies Bicycle Playing Cards (KS)

[badpete69]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1460165270/the-goonies-bicycle-playing-cards-by-uspcc

[vmagic]

Should be noted it is only good for US backers but either way these will go out to people outside the US so it's really a moot point.

[Nurul]

Should be noted it is only good for US backers because apparently the licensee has never heard of resellers, lol.

Vic, shut up!

What do you care?! All you did was have a go at Albino Dragon for not being 'original' on their decks.

Anyway, this is taken from their FAQs
"As much as we would love to be able to support our international backers the way they have all supported us on all of our projects, we do not have the licensing approval to distribute worldwide yet. As a result, we can only offer this pre-order for those in the United States."

That's not to say it won't be released to international, just not at this time. I've seen this done on other projects.
Saying that, would any fellow forum members be so kind to pledge for me? I have the cash ready and waiting. I do believe that these will be a huge hit, and as with many other playing card projects, prices will rise aftermarket.

Please let me know

Also, deck looks awesome and I'm happy Nat Iwata  is on board for this too

[vmagic]

Should be noted it is only good for US backers because apparently the licensee has never heard of resellers, lol.

Anyway, this is taken from their FAQs
"As much as we would love to be able to support our international backers the way they have all supported us on all of our projects, we do not have the licensing approval to distribute worldwide yet. As a result, we can only offer this pre-order for those in the United States."

That's not to say it won't be released to international, just not at this time. I've seen this done on other projects.
Saying that, would any fellow forum members be so kind to pledge for me? I have the cash ready and waiting. I do believe that these will be a huge hit, and as with many other playing card projects, prices will rise aftermarket.

Please let me know

Also, deck looks awesome and I'm happy Nat Iwata  is on board for this too

I didn't mean anything negative, just that these will obviously show up on resellers or will somehow make their way into the hands of international customers one way or another. I wasn't referring to Albino Dragon with that remark but to whoever owns the licence to the Goonies. And on a side note, they could have waited until they had the licence to sell them to everyone.

Either way they may not have the authority to distribute these worldwide but international backers will find people or resellers from the US to get these. Whoever owns the rights has to realize that in today's world, they can't keep these in the US.

As for the originality comments, I have apologized for that, if not here, then on the other forum.

[bhong]

Depending on how those licencing/copyrights work, it could be possible that they won't ever get the international copyrights, which would be unfortunate.

[Rob Wright]

Another limited edition tuck box 

I get that Bicycle branding, gold foiling, and embossing cost more, but not $10 more.
Nice way to get a 2500 deck run made, and pad the profit. 

Pass!

[maggock]

Another limited edition tuck box 

I get that Bicycle branding, gold foiling, and embossing cost more, but not $10 more.
Nice way to get a 2500 deck run made, and pad the profit. 

Pass!

Yeah, it's a nice deck, but too rich for my blood at the moment.

[rjtomlinson1977]

Another limited edition tuck box 

I get that Bicycle branding, gold foiling, and embossing cost more, but not $10 more.
Nice way to get a 2500 deck run made, and pad the profit. 

Pass!

Yeah, it's a nice deck, but too rich for my blood at the moment.

I love the Goonies... but for that price Corey Feldman should be hand delivering these to my house.

[Don Boyer]

Just a general reminder, people.

Stating that a deck is overpriced, especially if it is, is just fine.

Stating something to the effect of "I wish I could afford that" is considered spam, though you have the forum's sympathy for your financial situation.

Please be aware of the distinction and avoid making the latter type of post.

Congratulations, Eric, on getting your goal so quickly, though I tend to agree with many here that this is a very expensive deck, especially the limited edition version (though technically, they're both limited editions - I doubt any version of this deck will have more than a single print run, right?).

[BiggerDee]

I'm a bit surprised that these have taken off so quickly. I'm old enough to easily remember The Goonies movie, but I don't remember it beign that huge of a hit. I didn't figure that these would make their goal. I was wrong again, that makes twice this year. I'm slipping.

[AlbinoDragon]

The licensing plays a huge part of it. Many times in order to get a property we have to agree to a hard retail price in the contract. This is to prevent us from doing something like selling them at $5 each and diluting their brand.

It does raise an interesting question though. At what price point would these decks be considered a definite buy?

[Don Boyer]

The licensing plays a huge part of it. Many times in order to get a property we have to agree to a hard retail price in the contract. This is to prevent us from doing something like selling them at $5 each and diluting their brand.

It does raise an interesting question though. At what price point would these decks be considered a definite buy?

It's not an easy question to answer.  I can easily tell you that $15 for the SE deck and $25 for the LE deck, even with shipping included in the US, seems steep.

At one time, people came to KS because they could get bargains for backing someone to get their idea off the ground.  That seems so long ago, all but forgotten.  There was also a lot less competition for people's dollars back then - three deck projects at once was considered a lot back when this forum was founded.  Now, two dozen or more is considered more like the norm.  Some fail, some succeed, but no matter how you slice it, there's a lot more competition in the marketplace, both on and off of Kickstarter.  Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be an equivalent increase in people's incomes in general, so hard choices have to be made.  With price creep coming into play, it becomes easier to make some of those decisions.

Some designers might cry, "But I'm printing with USPC, and I'm paying extra for the Bicycle brand name!  I have to charge extra compared to the rest."  To that I say, "Twaddle and poppycock!"  (It's the PG version but you get the idea.)  The Bicycle brand name has become diluted to the point that it means very little anymore, and their are cheaper, viable (if not superior) alternatives to the United States Playing Card Company.  With time and luck, USPC might realize this and find ways to operate more efficiently and become more affordable again.  But the days when they were the only real game in town are over.

Which means that $15 and $25 a pack for a new deck are harder to justify.  You could have dropped the Bicycle name and saved, since you're already paying extra for the movie merchandise license.  You could even have used an alternative printer to lower the price.  But that's simply one man's opinion.

[AlbinoDragon]

My problem with this is that it doesn't give me an answer to the question. "Less" is not a constructive answer. "I would never buy these so it doesn't matter" would tell me that I could charge more and you shouldn't care either.

At the end of the day, I think Kickstarter (and the market in general) is too crowded. My own company is partly to blame because we did so well it brought others into the space thinking it was easy money.

That said, it costs a lot more to make a deck than people realize. For a single deck, the shipping and licensing run about $5 but we can't put $10 because KS doesn't break it out. If a deck costs $2.50 to make it to our door, then that's a decent markup if there weren't KS or artist fees involved. For the limited edition, we have about 500 out there which runs close to $8 extra per deck. If KS takes $1 out of that ten, we aren't getting rich on that any time soon. And yes, at lower quantities like that, the tucks are pretty expensive.

There are other companies rising to compete effectively with Bicycle. They aren't manufacturers that our licensors know or trust like Bicycle though. We do like Bicycle because they are reliable, and saving 50 cents switching to another vendor doesn't justify that risk at this time.

Hopefully this doesn't come across as defensive. That's not how I mean it at all, but it seems like there are a lot of comments made that gloss over facts and don't offer any constructive solutions. Not a single person has said, "$8.99 would be closer to what I would expect, but I would only pay that if it was in Target", etc.

[maggock]

I can't offer any solutions, only what my jumping in point would be, and that's probably $30 for both decks.  I'm not sure if that's a feasible price point for you, however.

Sorry for my comment Don!  I should have clarified - it's not so much an 'I can't afford it' thing but more a 'I'd rather spread that money across 2-3 worthy projects than sink it into one' thing.  I'm generally not a big bucks contributor on any one project, but I like to support as many as I can that I like!

[ecNate]

The $15 for the 'Unlimited' deck (I really would prefer standard or just let Limited stand on it's own BTW) is a bit higher than other unbranded decks out there, but a few extra bucks for licensing and even premium margin is reasonable.  The Limited deck packages (can't just get the deck) of around $25 is too much for me given I have other more expensive hobbies.  I don't see that $10 premium being worth it for the special tuck and Bicycle name, especially if it means you HAVE to buy something else to get it.  $5 more, then maybe.  Then again, I don't typically collect multiples of the same deck, not even different versions, so I'm not the primary target and would not likely get both anyhow.  I would have considered buying JUST the Limited at something over $15, perhaps up to $20. 

Still though, it's not about being 'fair' it's about selling at a price the market will bear.  With a limited deck of only 500 I think you'll sell out eventually and certainly if not during the campaign then shortly after when some show up and actually sell on ebay for 2x.

Good luck!  I'm already in for that standard deck...I mean 'Unlimited'!   

[rjtomlinson1977]

I'm sure the licensing of the name adds to the price tag. So with that said it's hard to nail down a "fair price". In the end a product is worth what people are willing to pay. I can go to Kmart and buy a pair of jeans for $15 but if I go to a Tommy HIlfiger store I'll pay four times that amount...with most of the extra amount paying for the brand name.
For me, Kickstarter is a way to raise funds for a project I would otherwise couldn't afford to produce on my on dime. I think many designers (card producers) look at KS as a way to pull in huge profits. I personally get happy as a clam just to raise enough to get the job done. The after KS market is just as strong if not stronger than KS itself. My Civil Unrest decks sold like hotcakes after they came in and I already have a lot of non-KS orders for Global Urnest which is coming in later this month.

[Don Boyer]

My problem with this is that it doesn't give me an answer to the question. "Less" is not a constructive answer. "I would never buy these so it doesn't matter" would tell me that I could charge more and you shouldn't care either.

At the end of the day, I think Kickstarter (and the market in general) is too crowded. My own company is partly to blame because we did so well it brought others into the space thinking it was easy money.

That said, it costs a lot more to make a deck than people realize. For a single deck, the shipping and licensing run about $5 but we can't put $10 because KS doesn't break it out. If a deck costs $2.50 to make it to our door, then that's a decent markup if there weren't KS or artist fees involved. For the limited edition, we have about 500 out there which runs close to $8 extra per deck. If KS takes $1 out of that ten, we aren't getting rich on that any time soon. And yes, at lower quantities like that, the tucks are pretty expensive.

There are other companies rising to compete effectively with Bicycle. They aren't manufacturers that our licensors know or trust like Bicycle though. We do like Bicycle because they are reliable, and saving 50 cents switching to another vendor doesn't justify that risk at this time.

Hopefully this doesn't come across as defensive. That's not how I mean it at all, but it seems like there are a lot of comments made that gloss over facts and don't offer any constructive solutions. Not a single person has said, "$8.99 would be closer to what I would expect, but I would only pay that if it was in Target", etc.

I do understand the frustration your dealing with in terms of commentary such as what we have so far regarding price.  It's never an easy decision to make - you want to make money, but you want to offer value as well, and no one would deny you the right to profit from your labors.  (Except maybe Victor Miranda, but he's more of an outlier!)

You mentioned saving 50 cents on a deck by using another vendor.  What if you could save much more than that?  You're paying extra for the Bicycle brand name, on top of what you're already paying for the license, and then there's the matter of the Bicycle version being different in name only (correct me if I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time and won't be the last).  You could simply have ditched it altogether, but you opted instead for a "Bicycle limited edition" and it appears to have worked for you, because you've exceeded your goal by far.  There's at least two companies that would have offered you a substantial savings that you could have passed on to your customers.

You might sell (just plucking a number from the air) 2,000 decks including the LE with an average price of $17.50 - but what if you could sell twice as many decks at $10 a pack and with a lower per-deck cost?  The shipping and certain fees are unchangeable regardless, but there's wisdom in selling a greater quantity at a lower price and moving more units.  It's why there's so many apps on Apple's App Store for $4.99 or less, and songs in iTunes are between $1.39 and $0.69 each.  Granted, they're not moving a physical object like you are, but the same concept applies in the real world or companies like Target and Wal-Mart wouldn't exist, would they?

At this point, it's all just Monday morning quaterbacking, because you've reached your goal and then some, but it's something to think on for the future.  If price creep continues, the entire hobby will eventually burn itself out just as things like comic books and sports cards/memorabilia did a handful of years ago.  As deck prices increase, the audience for them will decrease until interest in custom decks in general just collapses under its own weight.  Granted, it's a luxury hobby to begin with, but unless the whole world is getting pay raises each time the deck prices go up, something has to give in the marketplace, and the most expensive decks will face the brunt of it.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it! 

[AlbinoDragon]

Lol to the Victor comment.

The Limited One doesn't just have the Bicycle logo on it, it is also foil and embossed which is significantly more expensive at lower costs. I've looked into other companies for printing, but one of the bigger ones does't make their tuck boxes the same way from what I understand. The real expense from printing anything comes from the setup costs which is amortized over the size of the print run.

In your example, 4000 decks at $10 wouldn't be much more than $35,000 for 2000 decks at $17.50. In fact, it might cost more in the long run because of freight fees, inventory fees, and shipping fees. But yes I understand what you are saying, and that's really the biggest trick in any business is finding that magic price point that is the equilibrium between profit and quantity. The difference with the Apple store is that once production has been done, it scales up at that price point without material or shipping costs.

As for the price creep, I completely agree. I've said it a few times, I think the playing card market is going the way of comics in the early 90s. Foil embossed covers, multiple cover variants, limited edition cards, special packaging, die cut covers, etc. It's not a good thing but companies will continue to do it as long as it's profitable. I think part of the problem is the same one that comics had, speculation. Many people are buying bricks of decks to put up on ebay at a profit, but when everyone starts doing that, there's nobody left to buy them and the bottom drops out of the market.

[rjtomlinson1977]

Lol to the Victor comment.

The Limited One doesn't just have the Bicycle logo on it, it is also foil and embossed which is significantly more expensive at lower costs. I've looked into other companies for printing, but one of the bigger ones does't make their tuck boxes the same way from what I understand. The real expense from printing anything comes from the setup costs which is amortized over the size of the print run.

In your example, 4000 decks at $10 wouldn't be much more than $35,000 for 2000 decks at $17.50. In fact, it might cost more in the long run because of freight fees, inventory fees, and shipping fees. But yes I understand what you are saying, and that's really the biggest trick in any business is finding that magic price point that is the equilibrium between profit and quantity. The difference with the Apple store is that once production has been done, it scales up at that price point without material or shipping costs.

As for the price creep, I completely agree. I've said it a few times, I think the playing card market is going the way of comics in the early 90s. Foil embossed covers, multiple cover variants, limited edition cards, special packaging, die cut covers, etc. It's not a good thing but companies will continue to do it as long as it's profitable. I think part of the problem is the same one that comics had, speculation. Many people are buying bricks of decks to put up on ebay at a profit, but when everyone starts doing that, there's nobody left to buy them and the bottom drops out of the market.

I agree that the playing card market is at a crossroads. The card business is at a renaissance and a suicidal downfall at the same time. The people who are pushing the art of playing cards to new levels are the same people who are pushing it closer to an edge of a cliff. With designers pushing the limits with embossing, foiling, multiple editions, new decks monthly, etc. etc. more and more it’s causing the costs to rise for the consumer. We as designers need to find a happy middle ground where we can provide quality but lower the cost.at the same time. Now that EPCC is starting to provide a lower cost alternative to USPCC maybe things might improve (a little). But I doubt it… not until the bubble bursts and the prices are forced to come down.
We as designers need to use our creative abilities to think of ways to grow the card collecting community. For example, your Goonies deck and the Princess Bride deck appeals to more than just the card community… it appeals to the movie fan base. This helps introduce card collecting to a larger crowd. My cards are aimed towards history buffs (American Civil War, WWII, American Revolutionary War, RMS Titanic). This helps pull in history buffs to our community. Jackson is working on a military deck. We all know how large the military community is… so once again it opens card collecting to a new crowd. Not to give away any of my secrets… but I will. After I have a successful card project I do a board game project based on the same theme to help get the board game community into card collecting. For example, I just funded a micro-game called Enigma that uses playing cards to code and decode messages. As an add-on I had my Global Unrest cards available. In a small way it helps pull the game community and the card community together. This is what we need to do to keep the bubble from bursting.

[CBJ]

First look at Chunk and Stef






CBJ