Animosity in the MarketWow, I think its time that some of us sit back, take off

[Limbo Animations]

Wow, I think its time that some of us sit back, take off our E, T11 and other brand stickers and take a breath of fresh air directly from the USPCC.  Its getting crazy and tense and overall overwhelming with all things considered.  E has tons of people bend out of shape with the leaks and the sales tactics.  T11 is on the same path but is also just pissing in everyone front yard with the same marketing routine every month "MOST ASTONISHING DECK OF CARDS EVER".  Dan and Dave, well while there taking a road less traveled, I think we can accept there terms easier.  Blue Crown, Little Giants on the move following a similar path as E & T11.  Then pure animosity with the drama due to there recent endeavors to personally connect with each community.  But then we have the founders, the real reason good cards are possible.  The United States Playing Card Company.  They keep it fresh, true and don't go out of there way to gain an extra buck by creating strange marketing events that require you to dump your wallet to get something nice.  The Dragon Backs have been very nice and easy to pick up when you choose to buy them.  They have a gold version on the rise that  O BY THE WAY you can purchase for the going rate for one of there decks with custom art.  Now I'm not taking anything away from the growing market as it is evolving and will endure change both good and bad.  Kickstarter is a new era for cards but I think its time is coming to an end.  The cat is out of the bag and people are all beginning to realize " hey I can make the deck and fund it and BAM! I'm in the business.  This was nice when it was first being utilized by passionate artists such as Lance T. Miller.  I cant actually think of anything bad to say about the guy and apart from being a good friend to the guy I think he really is doing good things for the future market.  Don't think so?  Consider that he is looking to make almost nothing for the Actuators and is simply making them to make a movement for quality, honesty, integrity and all by keeping us, the community, in mind.  Lets step back for a moment and withdraw from this chaos and remember that you can buy a good deck of cards from genuine entities without having to deal with these tricky dealings.  We have a choice and we have the power to influence.  Go out in the next few days and buy a Bike or a Bee.  Play with the cards and remember the days when those were special to us.  Remember the days when the Watermelon Bee's were a real treasure and a nice collectable.  When your done return to the current market and recognize honesty, talent, and integrity and ask, how will you be spending your money.  Are you going to spend it on a trend or something that truly connects with you and moves you as an artists.  Don't make it about them, make it about you. 

Robert Butler


SIDE NOTE FOR AETHER & ALEX: I don't consider your work a burden or a loss in today's market.  Just remember your roots and who you are.  You'll do great things.

[Kanped]

I really don't see your point here.  It could be (and I'm sorry but it's true) that I'm confused by the grammatical errors but are you trying to say that custom decks are harming the business of regular USPCC decks?  I really don't think you can provide any evidence to support that.

[AceGambit]

I think the point he was making was that everyone seems to be coming out with new decks every week.  Just between E, T11, and Blue Crown, there's like 6 or so new decks being released this holiday season, add Kickstarter on top of that as well as BBM and anyone else who chooses to produce custom decks.  It's a lot.  Everyone seems to be getting caught up in the releases and magicians and collectors alike (I'm both) are scrambling to pick up the next new deck.


I think Robert is suggesting that we need to sit back and forget about the custom decks for a moment; remember our roots.  I feel safe saying that almost all of us began with a deck of Bee or Bikes.  Ignoring the custom decks, just for a day or two, can help you appreciate them more.  With all the new decks coming out, it's hard to really appreciate the beauty, quality, finesse, and elegance that a custom deck can bring to the table for you.


If you're a collector, and you just have to have the latest deck of cards (and you can afford to buy them), fine.  As a magician; however, don't buy the cards just because they are there, buy them because you will use them, because their design does something to enhance your art.


-Kurt

[Kanped]

Oh, I see. That's fine but surely everyone goes back to those decks, anyway, no?  I mean, when I'm practicing I don't break out my rare decks; I use my standard Bees.  I just like the look and often the feel of the custom decks; they're like little pieces of art that I just happen to like and I think it's fun to collect them.  I assumed everyone did that?

[phantom1412]

I understand your point and I'm agree.
But bussiness is bussiness. It's almost impossible for the maker to stop making new decks.


Before these months, reselling the decks gave bucks to many resellers.
But personally, I think that won't go much for long time.
Everyone seems to realize the incredible amount of decks that are being released.
And we are all need to be more picky because we have to spend for our livings too.


For this, the kickstarter deck that doesn't have enough quality will not be funded.
I think just a month or 2 from now, we will see a lot new kickstarter decks coming out, but at the same time, we will see many unsuccessful funding projects. And people will have to stop unless they have a real great design on decks.


Going back to the resellers, now I think some of them are having troubles because people have a lot new decks waiting for and don't really feel that they should go back for what they have missed. That makes the price of decks won't go too high.


About the big companies, hmmm we could do nothing. But at least the fantastique deck are screaming that D&D's decks aren't always sold out fast.

[AceGambit]

phantom, you have a point.  The Fantastique deck definitely illustrates how an abundance of custom decks on the market can affect sales across the board.  D&D decks usually sell out within days of release, if not sooner.  Fantastique are still in stock.  This could be because it's not a Smoke & Mirrors deck, but it could also be because everyone is spending their money on other decks day of release and therefore there are less people inclined to purchase more decks.


I'm not an economics master, so how this will affect the market as time goes on I can only speculate on, but it is clear that the explosion of custom decks has had an effect on the custom playing card market.

[Don Boyer]

Re the Fantastiques, there's a lot of possible reasons why they haven't sold out yet.  Maybe they made huge quantities, maybe D&D want to have a deck around on a regular basis instead of a special issue that sells out then months of no D&D decks.


Re all that's been said, yes, use your cards.  Yes, remember your roots: Bikes, Tallys, Bees, Studs, Aviators, Mavericks - all the "base" brands of the USPC.  With all the custom decks and special issues and whatnot, I recently broke out a plain old pack of red Cincinnati Rider Backs.  It's not all about buying everything and putting it under glass.

[PoundFFFFFF]

There is nothing wrong with releasing a deck if it's GOOD. The money is yours... No one is forcing you to spend it. It merely adds to the market, no one complains about too many items on the shelf.

[chahung]

There are several good points in your post but I do not get your comments about kickstarter. Why do you feel its time has come and gone. As others pointed out, a card is only printed if it is considered pleasing to the eye by the consumer. It is not desired merely because it has the word "limited" next to it. :-X

[Eyeball]

Re the Fantastiques, there's a lot of possible reasons why they haven't sold out yet.  Maybe they made huge quantities, maybe D&D want to have a deck around on a regular basis instead of a special issue that sells out then months of no D&D decks.


Re all that's been said, yes, use your cards.  Yes, remember your roots: Bikes, Tallys, Bees, Studs, Aviators, Mavericks - all the "base" brands of the USPC.  With all the custom decks and special issues and whatnot, I recently broke out a plain old pack of red Cincinnati Rider Backs.  It's not all about buying everything and putting it under glass.

Actually, Dan and Dave claimed that they were very limited, even more so than the V6's.

[chahung]

Re the Fantastiques, there's a lot of possible reasons why they haven't sold out yet.  Maybe they made huge quantities, maybe D&D want to have a deck around on a regular basis instead of a special issue that sells out then months of no D&D decks.


Re all that's been said, yes, use your cards.  Yes, remember your roots: Bikes, Tallys, Bees, Studs, Aviators, Mavericks - all the "base" brands of the USPC.  With all the custom decks and special issues and whatnot, I recently broke out a plain old pack of red Cincinnati Rider Backs.  It's not all about buying everything and putting it under glass.

Actually, Dan and Dave claimed that they were very limited, even more so than the V6's.

You are correct in that one. They explicitly stated that. It has been brought up in this forum that it is not exactly known how many were made but they did say the cards had less made than V6. They also made a statement that they expected the cards to be sold out in a week. Anyway, I was annoyed by that whole thing for a little while but they are great cards. Very unique. I guess that is the important thing

[phantom1412]

Maybe it because the back of the cards aren't the same. So, people just buying only 1 or 2 just to collect them. Also, resellers don't go for this deck I think.

[xela]

USPCC is great, I don't think anyone here denies that, but in the end it is USPCC. It's a certain style of card and it will always be that style. That's not a bad thing, which is why a huge portion of my collection of decks are USPCC-designed. However, I think we all like to experience something beyond ordinary. That's where the other companies come in. That being said, the constant release of cards is getting out of hand. The bigger companies need to tone it down a notch, if only to not cater to the bubble in the industry that will eventually burst and hurt them the most.

As for Kickstarter, I foresee many more people attempting to fund their cards through it and failing. Lance's original Actuators were halfway funded by his Gargoyle deck, and he only managed to raise half the amount of money it actually costs to print a deck. Now he has a following and is able to gain more cash. Both Russell and Adam from Circle City marketed their decks well, and that is why they are packing over $25k per Kickstarter. I myself spend day and night working on media, marketing and of course the cards themselves. That is why I made the amount I made.

However, some people see this success and think all it takes is a decent design and a call to action. That will, in almost all instances, be far from enough. With all my marketing, my reach and the product itself, I am still barely making it to $30k. It's astounding to see other people demand this amount like it's nothing. It's an extremely hard number to reach, and it's not done by working on the product alone, and it is certainly not done by half-heartedly creating a half-decent deck (we all know which one this is).

All in all, more projects will fail, and I believe that will make some people lose faith in Kickstarter decks. This is a huge shame, because it hinders those of us who rely on the site to print more. On the other hand, failed projects will also highlight the successful ones as well. Only time will tell in the end.

[phantom1412]

@Alex, I don't thing the image of kickstarter deck will go bad. It depends on the designer.
You already have a good reputation from the vortex deck. I'm sure the next deck from you won't be a problem.

[xela]

@Alex, I don't thing the image of kickstarter deck will go bad. It depends on the designer.
You already have a good reputation from the vortex deck. I'm sure the next deck from you won't be a problem.

I agree, but I do know some other people are having trouble while they plan how to put their project on Kickstarter in the coming months. The question comes down to "How do I prove I'm not just another random designer without a care in the world about cards in the long run?"

[phantom1412]

I agree, but I do know some other people are having trouble while they plan how to put their project on Kickstarter in the coming months. The question comes down to "How do I prove I'm not just another random designer without a care in the world about cards in the long run?"



I think the design of the decks will say everything.
If they are good enough, of course people will back them.

[SeanWhelan]

After reading all of the above post, I feel its necessary to to give my feedback.

You see I created the Galvanic Playing Cards now because it is a great time in my life to do so. I just recently graduated from college, only 22 years old, trying to find a career job...so for me it was just a great point in my life to put these out.

Yes other decks are coming out, and a lot more frequently, but I for one did it for a purpose. I didn't do it for the money, I did it as an artist. I wanted to showcase my skills, my images in my head and the creativity that I hold.

I have a huge respect for the magic community as well as playing cards themselves. At the end of the day, I am able to sit back and say....wow...I created these from scratch, from my own inspiration...I brought what was in my head for the longest time to life. As an artist its a huge accomplishment

Also almost everyone I know personally, all they do once they get off work is party or play games non-stop. They never push themselves to do something greater. I never wanted to fall down that road.

For me, it was to show that I have potential be someone. This is why I chose to design a deck of playing cards and I'm sure Alex can agree with me on this one.

[xela]

Also almost everyone I know personally, all they do once they get off work is party or play games non-stop. They never push themselves to do something greater. I never wanted to fall down that road.

For me, it was to show that I have potential be someone. This is why I chose to design a deck of playing cards and I'm sure Alex can agree with me on this one.

I do agree! And that is why I love to see new decks come out when I know passion went into making them. Even with cards I don't particularly like, if I know that it was made by someone who slaved over them because they love what they do, I can support them.


I think it's up to us, the niche producers and collectors, to shift the market towards the great decks and to really trample the garbage in the mud.


On an unrelated note, Sean, I'd love to have a look at some of the animations you're capable of. I'd really like to see the Galvanic in motion.

[Don Boyer]

Just like in any marketplace, if someone puts out crap long enough, the consumers gets wise, especially when there's no shortage of alternative choices.  Not every deck that hits Kickstarter even succeeds - maybe not so recently, but there's at least one interesting deck project that failed before I started using the site.  A quick search just now shows me that there's at least three decks that are likely to fail - one of which only raised 9% with ten days left, another of which has only raised $90 and has been up for a while with three weeks remaining.

[phantom1412]

Just like in any marketplace, if someone puts out crap long enough, the consumers gets wise, especially when there's no shortage of alternative choices.  Not every deck that hits Kickstarter even succeeds - maybe not so recently, but there's at least one interesting deck project that failed before I started using the site.  A quick search just now shows me that there's at least three decks that are likely to fail - one of which only raised 9% with ten days left, another of which has only raised $90 and has been up for a while with three weeks remaining.

I think the decks you are mentioning is for a different group of people than us.

[Don Boyer]

I think the decks you are mentioning is for a different group of people than us.

That's kind of my point.  They don't have enough appeal within the KS community and therefore are struggling.  The people who buy Lance Miller's or Circle City's decks aren't necessary the same people who'd fund novelties like "Occupy the 1%" or "Triple Topper".  Are there people who might find that appealing out in the vast world we live in?  Sure.  But they don't seem to inhabit KS much, or those decks would be succeeding.

Know your market, appeal to your market; you're more likely to succeed.
Market the wrong product to the wrong consumers and you're more likely to fail.

The wrong product can be wrong for a multitude of reasons: bad design, unpopular theme, too novel or "out there", poor quality.  There's one themed deck on KS now that the creator went all the way to an Indian company in order to get it printed - likely because they were trying to shave a few bucks off the cost and couldn't afford USPC or anyone similar.  (And she doesn't advertise that fact at all!  Her tuck box image actually has USPC markings on it, which I'm sure is fooling some of those who have thus far invested.)  Could be a gorgeous deck, but if it shuffles and handles like crap, who's going to want it?  It'd be no better than a tourist trap deck.

In time, the Darwinian forces behind the KS community will weed out the garbage by simply not funding it.  Those same forces will be at work in the marketplace.  Someone corrected me by saying that D&D's Fantastique was printed in smaller quantities than S&M6 (and they're right).  But do we know how large a print run S&M6 was?  I know I don't.  Without knowing that, it's as good as saying "he's not as tall as the Empire State Building, no sir."  The reason it hasn't sold out could simply be that the deck is such a departure from their S&M designs that it was a little too different than their community would prefer, for the most part.

[xela]

Actually, cards targetted to our demographic are failing on Kickstarter as well. The Crimson Gate deck won't see the light of day, and Galvanic isn't doing nearly as good as the other releases, although I would be astounded if it didn't meet its minimum goal. Still though, that minimum will be met much more slowly with less room for doubling fundraising.

However, the Galvanic is actually a sweet deck made by someone with actual talent, so it's hard to tell where the future of Kickstarter decks lie.

On the one hand launching a pre-release without KS allows for way more discounts, way more free stuff, way more payment flexibilities, etc. On the other hand, a huge portion of pledges are from the Kickstarter community and not the card community.

It's one tricky vice, to be sure.

[SeanWhelan]

I appreciate the kind words alex

[Bulldozah]

The reason may just be timing. I'm sorry to say it, but the pledges I have made for the Galvanic deck and the Actuators are far less than what I want them to be, and the reason is that SO many decks are coming out right now. This is hardly anyones fault, but I imagine that in maybe six months time, a KS deck will have more of a chance of succeeding (if the number of new decks dies down, that is).

[Don Boyer]

I think if Crimson Gate fails, it's due to lack of imagination, at least in the eyes of many people here.  I heard a lot of people saying "pass" on that one.

Galvanic has a pretty high threshold, but with enough interest it'll succeed.

The holidays are nearly upon us.  How many of you are holding off on buying stuff until you see the Black Friday (or Cyber Monday) sales?