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ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals

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ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« on: May 21, 2014, 08:19:09 PM »
 

Card Player

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Saw this posted on Twitter. Art of Play is adding their own custom seals? This is nothing new for D&D but I've never seen it added to another producers deck.

Thoughts, Issues?

Do you know what your buying from Art of Play? What options do producers have about how their products are sold by others? Should you consider these used or opened?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 08:25:31 PM by !An0nym0u5 »
 

Re: ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2014, 08:23:08 PM »
 

jwats01

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This seems a bit crazy to me.

I think I'll not buy from them (not that I've bought that much, but still) until this mystery is resolved.

I do not want any company modifying the decks I'm buying to make them different from what they were when released.
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Re: ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2014, 08:46:27 PM »
 

JacksonRobinson

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Don't like it much, if I see any of my decks with one of those seals I won't be making any more of my decks available to them. Unless they pay me to brand their own brand.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 08:47:29 PM by JacksonRobinson »
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Re: ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2014, 09:02:21 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Not what I bargained for, but I did place an order with them recently and none of those seals were on my decks.  I'm guessing that they're only on select decks from certain manufacturers with whom they've made advance arrangements?  It would be a logical explanation.
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Re: ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2014, 10:35:07 PM »
 

agera94

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Could be a means for giving buyers a reason to buy from them. While I don't quite like it, it could be a nice little gesture or incentive - instead of regular bikes, you can have art of play bikes. Then again it could provide artificial value to the collectors market which would be a bit of a bummer.
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Re: ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2014, 10:53:57 PM »
 

Yashi

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Over here in the Philippines, some of the regular bikes have a holographic seal with the logo of the local distributor. I wouldn't consider them used or opened though. I don't think they remove the original seal just to place their own.
 

Re: ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2014, 10:57:33 PM »
 

S. Carey

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Yeah this is quite weird.

I do not know about anyone else but I was never exactly a fan of seals anyway. I suppose they look nice if I am not opening them but if I open a deck, the broken seal is just messy.
 

Re: ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2014, 11:23:34 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Over here in the Philippines, some of the regular bikes have a holographic seal with the logo of the local distributor. I wouldn't consider them used or opened though. I don't think they remove the original seal just to place their own.

That could be for anti-counterfeiting measures.  I know that USPC does similar with their Bee decks sold in China.  Those decks are pretty wicked-looking - Bill Kalush showed me one and the cellophane was laser-etched with holograms!
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Re: ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2014, 12:51:58 AM »
 

Yashi

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That could be for anti-counterfeiting measures.  I know that USPC does similar with their Bee decks sold in China.  Those decks are pretty wicked-looking - Bill Kalush showed me one and the cellophane was laser-etched with holograms!

Yeah, that could be the case. I recently received two standard bikes that are obviously counterfeit. It's so poorly done that I decided to keep them.  :)
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 12:55:40 AM by Yashi »
 

Re: ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2014, 06:37:52 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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That could be for anti-counterfeiting measures.  I know that USPC does similar with their Bee decks sold in China.  Those decks are pretty wicked-looking - Bill Kalush showed me one and the cellophane was laser-etched with holograms!

Yeah, that could be the case. I recently received two standard bikes that are obviously counterfeit. It's so poorly done that I decided to keep them.  :)

You should make a topic and post photos.
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Re: ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2014, 08:20:35 AM »
 

Magic_Orthodoxy

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after getting my new Madison decks from 'E' I think I am totally convinced. I prefer no seals - ever. It just leaves a sticky mess if you peel it and it's all jaggedy if you cut it. I like the tucks and the design the artists put into the flaps - so you heard it here first - my designer cards will have no seals.... when .... um.... I design my own decks.... in some alternate reality.
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Re: ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2014, 11:30:09 AM »
 

Card Player

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after getting my new Madison decks from 'E' I think I am totally convinced. I prefer no seals - ever. It just leaves a sticky mess if you peel it and it's all jaggedy if you cut it. I like the tucks and the design the artists put into the flaps - so you heard it here first - my designer cards will have no seals.... when .... um.... I design my own decks.... in some alternate reality.

Are you referring to Madison Decks or the topic of this thread, AOP seals? What, no plug of your review? Shocking!
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 11:31:22 AM by !An0nym0u5 »
 

Re: ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2014, 02:10:03 PM »
 

splice42

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It just leaves a sticky mess if you peel it and it's all jaggedy if you cut it.

Opening up a deck properly without either of these issues is a fundamental skill for all cardmen (whether gamblers, magicians or flourishers). Use your thumbnail and cut it along the rounded crease. Removing it entirely is not an option because of the sticky goop left behind, and cutting it straight across leaves the sticker to stick to the flap and gum up the works. The thumbnail is ideal to follow the curve and size of the cutout (at least, feels that way with my thumb).

Even though I have absolutely no use for them, I still think seals are nice. I don't really know why. They just feel right.
 

Re: ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2014, 02:24:24 PM »
 

Card Player

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It just leaves a sticky mess if you peel it and it's all jaggedy if you cut it.

Opening up a deck properly without either of these issues is a fundamental skill for all cardmen (whether gamblers, magicians or flourishers). Use your thumbnail and cut it along the rounded crease. Removing it entirely is not an option because of the sticky goop left behind, and cutting it straight across leaves the sticker to stick to the flap and gum up the works. The thumbnail is ideal to follow the curve and size of the cutout (at least, feels that way with my thumb).

Even though I have absolutely no use for them, I still think seals are nice. I don't really know why. They just feel right.

One of the team members of loop-cuts has a great way of removing seals. He calls himself  PDCMagic on YouTube. I'm sure he's not the first but the first I've seen. He uses the seal sticky back to pull the sticky seal residue off the box. I highly recommend trying it. You will never care if a deck has a seal or not again.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 02:25:20 PM by !An0nym0u5 »
 

Re: ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2014, 03:19:59 PM »
 

Paul.Middleton

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When I first saw this posted on Instagram I just assumed it was for a bit of marketing only. I certainly wouldn't be happy to buy a deck without the original seal personally and I definitely wouldn't do it to our customers.

I did pick up a few Exquisite Bold decks and one was without any cellophane and looks a bit used, I enquired about it and was told they sometimes have decks without cellophane from the manufacturers. I doubt EPCC would do this, and to be honest - if I knew a deck was sold as cellophane sealed I wouldn't sell it without (perhaps reduced in price actually).

Personally overall I think Art Of Play do a lot of things really well and I love the site design, but little niggles like this do put people off when they're spending money.

Back to the original point - has anyone (or know anyone) actually had this happen on a purchased deck yet?
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Re: ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2014, 03:47:03 PM »
 

Card Player

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When I first saw this posted on Instagram I just assumed it was for a bit of marketing only. I certainly wouldn't be happy to buy a deck without the original seal personally and I definitely wouldn't do it to our customers.

I did pick up a few Exquisite Bold decks and one was without any cellophane and looks a bit used, I enquired about it and was told they sometimes have decks without cellophane from the manufacturers. I doubt EPCC would do this, and to be honest - if I knew a deck was sold as cellophane sealed I wouldn't sell it without (perhaps reduced in price actually).

Personally overall I think Art Of Play do a lot of things really well and I love the site design, but little niggles like this do put people off when they're spending money.

Back to the original point - has anyone (or know anyone) actually had this happen on a purchased deck yet?

I have. Those that bought the last variety box from D&D. Both the Clip Joint and the DeckStarter decks had cellophane removed and a custom seal added. It does not make them any more valuable or limited.

I have not bought from Art of Play? I don't see the incentive of paying those high prices.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 03:48:30 PM by !An0nym0u5 »
 

Re: ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2014, 04:39:10 PM »
 

Paul Carpenter

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Can't say I'm a fan of this concept. When I make a deck a certain way, it's for a reason. I want it the way I want it. If I want a seal, I'll design one, and if I want cellophane on it, it will have it.

I'm not sure about the "sometimes we get decks without cello from the manufacturer." I've passed more than 20,000 decks through my hands personally and every one of them had cello on it, like I had specced out. I've never given one of my wholesalers decks without the cello either, as then I'd be giving them "used" decks and that's not what they paid for.

If you are trading with friends or selling off used stock in a personal deal that's one thing, but a company selling new goods should be delivering items that are as designed by the creator.
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Re: ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2014, 12:54:13 PM »
 

Expert P.C. Co.

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Although it's not the same thing you will see some Expert PCC decks coming in the future with an edition using our seal or otherwise somewhat different from the general issued version. Of course this will only be done with permission of the designer/publisher and not after the fact. These little mods will be "as Issued" for the decks designed by others but to be sold by Conjuring Arts. Perhaps this cold be considered analogous to Conjuring Arts ordering the special Black edition of the Legends V2. Just something different for those who buy from Conjuring Arts.
Please understand this is not a gimmick nor some trick to drive collectors mad but just a fun way to be a little different and hopefully have a way for us to see some of the decks that passed through our hands on social media.
What's everyone think?
 

Re: ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2014, 04:14:17 PM »
 

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They are not used cars, so why are they slapping their name on them? Adds nothing to the deck and really, kind of takes away from it. I think most collectors want the decks as originally intended, not with modifications. What's next, Art of Play ad cards in the decks as well? lol

It would be a bit of a different story if they just stuck them on the cellophane instead of ripping that off and the original seals off.
 

Re: ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2014, 05:17:33 PM »
 

Card Player

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Although it's not the same thing you will see some Expert PCC decks coming in the future with an edition using our seal or otherwise somewhat different from the general issued version. Of course this will only be done with permission of the designer/publisher and not after the fact. These little mods will be "as Issued" for the decks designed by others but to be sold by Conjuring Arts. Perhaps this cold be considered analogous to Conjuring Arts ordering the special Black edition of the Legends V2. Just something different for those who buy from Conjuring Arts.
Please understand this is not a gimmick nor some trick to drive collectors mad but just a fun way to be a little different and hopefully have a way for us to see some of the decks that passed through our hands on social media.
What's everyone think?

Your talking about new printed versions of other producers decks sold by CARC having the EPCC seal on the deck? Are the seals being added to the deck "as manufactured" or "after manufacturing"? That's great that your getting the producers permission and think its fun but is that what your customers want? In small quantity you might be OK. I would say most collectors want "factory sealed" and EPCC would be making a big mistake underestimating customers.  Cross-Branding might be pointless if its not going to enhance the sale of the product and less potential buyers are going to see the branding. We all know about Aladdin's and Stud's being manufactured without cellophane but they are "factory sealed".

In this particular case, Daniel Madison favorited the AoP/D&D tweet. I assume they have Daniels permission?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 09:17:00 PM by !An0nym0u5 »
 

Re: ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2014, 12:39:40 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I think that what Expert is proposing and what Art of Play displayed in that image are two different things.

Consider this:

A retailer obtains a pre-existing deck from another company and decides to slap their name on it using a deck seal before offering it for sale.  This I would consider akin to buying a car from a used car dealer where they affix a sticker on the car with their company brand.  I don't even appreciate when new car dealers do this, never mind used.

A retailer enters into an agreement with a deck company, arranging for a supply of their decks to be branded with the retailer's name on them, in effect creating a second edition (although it's different only in the deck seal).  This, going back to the car analogy again, would be to me like buying the "Eddie Bauer" edition of a particular SUV or the "Shelby" version of a sports car.

As I see it, if a deck maker wants to place a retailer's sticker on their cards, that's fine by me - it's their product do to with as they please.  Hardcore collectors will want every single version and will pay the extra for a copy of each, while the rest of us will be content purchasing however many decks we meant to get in the first place with either seal on it.  If a retailer is doing it, though - I can see where some collectors would be irked by this.  If It was a deck I planned on using, I wouldn't really care, but if it was something I was saving for my collection, I might.  Then again, there are collectors who keep price stickers on their decks from the retailers they were purchased from, making for some fond reminiscing down the road about how cheap decks were once upon a time.

I find that there's a certain irony here with this adding of stickers on decks by retailers, especially in that the Buck Twins are involved.  Remember a dealer named Dealing Deuces?  His website still exists and he still sell decks there - some of his prices are still as outrageous now as they were then, though he's no longer offering silly things like Golden Nugget decks for thousands of dollars a deck.  He sells "Jerry's Nugget" decks, but only the diamond-back ones that were manufactured for use at the tables, likely of a much more recent issue.  For a brief while, he started coming onto this board as a member and posted messages.

He ordered from USPC a reprint of the Arrco Tahoes and is listed on the bottom of the decks' tuck boxes as the deck's producer.  I can't recall if it was just the red and blue decks he had printed and someone else did the other two colors or it if he produced all four colors currently in circulation that are of recent origin (red, blue, black and "white" [inverse black]).  He decided to take a limited number of these decks, wrap them in foil to look special, put his own custom seals on them with serial numbers and such and sell them to the public as a 500-piece "First Edition" rare set.  I don't recall there being a lot of takers here - remember, he was expensive, in some cases outrageously so.  Also, these seals, while created by him, didn't have his name anywhere on them - they looked like something USPC might have created because they bore an Arrco logo.  I managed to find the decks from a reputable eBay seller without the foil condom around them at a reasonable price, so I have them in my collection.

Then this happened:
www.playingcardforum.com/playing-card-plethora/gold-ace-fulton's-casino-deck-by-dealing-deuces-fake!/

He got his hands on a supply of the orange and brown initial release of the Ace Fulton's Casino decks from Dan and Dave.  He took some of them, wrapped them in gold foil as he did with his Tahoes, then copied the Ace Fulton logo and placed it on the outside of the gold foil, probably by having the logo printed on clear stickers, offering the product for a noteworthy mark-up as another "special edition" of some kind.  People were freaking out, thinking it was some kind of special version of the deck produced by Dan and Dave - after all, their logo was on the foil, right?  Well, someone brought it to the Bucks' attention and they stated publicly that they did no such thing and it's not something they created.

We never heard from Dealing Deuces here again, and it's been a year since he posted anything to his Facebook account.  Some of the people hearing about this "deck dress-up" nonsense were in the mood to lynch him, assuming we did silly things like that...  But now, here we have the Art of Play, a Buck-owned company, suggesting they may do something similar.  To to be fair to the Bucks, there doesn't appear to be any effort to deceive as was the case with Dealing Deuces.  But those with the "gotta get 'em all" mentality still caught in high gear would want these just like the original versions...

As the market continues to grow at a breakneck pace, I'm finding it easier and easier to not have to get every version of every deck.  I don't even get close to it.  I pick and choose carefully now, and ironically in a time where there's more custom decks available than ever, I'm buying fewer and fewer of them.
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Re: ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2014, 08:54:20 AM »
 

Card Player

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Quote
I think that what Expert is proposing and what Art of Play displayed in that image are two different things.

Consider this:

A retailer obtains a pre-existing deck from another company and decides to slap their name on it using a deck seal before offering it for sale.  This I would consider akin to buying a car from a used car dealer where they affix a sticker on the car with their company brand.  I don't even appreciate when new car dealers do this, never mind used.

A retailer enters into an agreement with a deck company, arranging for a supply of their decks to be branded with the retailer's name on them, in effect creating a second edition (although it's different only in the deck seal).  This, going back to the car analogy again, would be to me like buying the "Eddie Bauer" edition of a particular SUV or the "Shelby" version of a sports car.

I agree there is a difference. That was sort of my (poorly written) point as well. But neither you or EPCC explain which one of those differences EPCC will be involved with in the future. Only that they also will be involved and there is a difference. I have no problem with your "Eddie Bauer" example. The answer we seem to be dancing around, is the seal going on during factory production or after factory production? I only bring this up because we were asked what we think by Expert P.C. Co.. I can't give helpful feedback without the complete facts. Otherwise, why ask us? They are going to do what they want anyway.

Quote
I find that there's a certain irony here with this adding of stickers on decks by retailers, especially in that the Buck Twins are involved.  Remember a dealer named Dealing Deuces?  His website still exists and he still sell decks there - some of his prices are still as outrageous now as they were then, though he's no longer offering silly things like Golden Nugget decks for thousands of dollars a deck.  He sells "Jerry's Nugget" decks, but only the diamond-back ones that were manufactured for use at the tables, likely of a much more recent issue.  For a brief while, he started coming onto this board as a member and posted messages.

He ordered from USPC a reprint of the Arrco Tahoes and is listed on the bottom of the decks' tuck boxes as the deck's producer.  I can't recall if it was just the red and blue decks he had printed and someone else did the other two colors or it if he produced all four colors currently in circulation that are of recent origin (red, blue, black and "white" [inverse black]).  He decided to take a limited number of these decks, wrap them in foil to look special, put his own custom seals on them with serial numbers and such and sell them to the public as a 500-piece "First Edition" rare set.  I don't recall there being a lot of takers here - remember, he was expensive, in some cases outrageously so.  Also, these seals, while created by him, didn't have his name anywhere on them - they looked like something USPC might have created because they bore an Arrco logo.  I managed to find the decks from a reputable eBay seller without the foil condom around them at a reasonable price, so I have them in my collection.

I remember those. Dealing Deuces produced both the Black/White and Red/Blue. I bought the gold (all 4) and silver (Red/Blue) foiled bricks. Those were advertised as being hand wrapped by USPCC. That's still factory sealed and acceptable. They were much cheaper when I bought them on release day. Dealing Deuces did gradually increase the price. If I remember correctly, I own #6/500 Gold, and #22/2500 Silver. I believe D&D bought the remaining Silver bricks w/ serial numbers and now sell the Red/Blue decks individually or as part of their Variety Box. Dealing Deuces also had Individual decks made but those have cellophane and no serial number. Basically D&D took off the Silver brick wrap that held the 2 decks together, which conveniently puts this thread topic back on track. lol The Tahoe's I've used handle very nicely. Dealing Deuces spared no expense when those were made. The stock was advertised as Aristocrat. (It's surly not Bee stock and it was softer then Bicycle.)

Time to hit the gym and get some sun. Enjoy your weekend Mr. Boyer.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 09:49:13 AM by !An0nym0u5 »
 

Re: ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2014, 09:32:57 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I agree there is a difference. That was sort of my (poorly written) point as well. But neither you or EPCC explain which one of those differences EPCC will be involved with in the future. Only that they also will be involved and there is a difference. I have no problem with your "Eddie Bauer" example. The answer we seem to be dancing around, is the seal going on during factory production or after factory production? I only bring this up because we were asked what we think by Expert P.C. Co.. I can't give helpful feedback without the complete facts. Otherwise, why ask us? They are going to do what they want anyway.

Unlike Art of Play or Dealing Deuces, Expert Playing Card Company is a manufacturer, not a retailer, so I'm thinking they'll likely be doing it at the factory, "under the cellophane" as it were.  EPCC is the "SUV maker" and Conjuring Arts is the "Eddie Bauer" in this example, having a custom-sealed version of the deck made for sale in the Conjuring Arts shop as part of the standard-issue print run of a given deck that's been ordered for manufacture by EPCC.  When it's done this way and it's what the designer is fine with, more power to 'em.  I find it problematic only when a retailer is inventing their own version of someone else's deck by slapping a seal on it after the fact and calling it "rare" or "special edition".
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Re: ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2014, 09:46:21 AM »
 

Card Player

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I agree there is a difference. That was sort of my (poorly written) point as well. But neither you or EPCC explain which one of those differences EPCC will be involved with in the future. Only that they also will be involved and there is a difference. I have no problem with your "Eddie Bauer" example. The answer we seem to be dancing around, is the seal going on during factory production or after factory production? I only bring this up because we were asked what we think by Expert P.C. Co.. I can't give helpful feedback without the complete facts. Otherwise, why ask us? They are going to do what they want anyway.

Unlike Art of Play or Dealing Deuces, Expert Playing Card Company is a manufacturer, not a retailer, so I'm thinking they'll likely be doing it at the factory, "under the cellophane" as it were.  EPCC is the "SUV maker" and Conjuring Arts is the "Eddie Bauer" in this example, having a custom-sealed version of the deck made for sale in the Conjuring Arts shop as part of the standard-issue print run of a given deck that's been ordered for manufacture by EPCC.  When it's done this way and it's what the designer is fine with, more power to 'em.  I find it problematic only when a retailer is inventing their own version of someone else's deck by slapping a seal on it after the fact and calling it "rare" or "special edition".

+1, I concur!
 

Re: ART OF PLAY - Adding Custom Seals
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2014, 05:15:11 PM »
 

Expert P.C. Co.

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  • The Expert Playing Card Company
Sorry I wasn't clear in my first post.

Expert Playing Card Company will ONLY do this in agreement with the designers/publishers. The versions using our seal or other changes will be official, unaltered productions done at the factory. Thus they will be versions that are a little different but still "As Issued".
Hope that helps clear things up.

« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 05:17:12 PM by Expert P.C. Co. »