Olde Bones: Deck of the Dead Playing Cards (KS)

[badpete69]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1983371295/olde-bones-deck-of-the-dead-playing-cards

[Don Boyer]

I was telling myself just a moment ago, "Y'know, myself, it's been FOREVER since we've seen a deck where the card color can be spotted from the edge of the deck, where some cards have print-to-the-bleed while others don't, where the artwork is monochrome to the point of dishwater dull AND the theme stated in the title 'Olde Bones' is largely ignored except for a few hair decorations in the young, manga-esque court characters..."

The name is ridiculous.  Makes you think of skeletons, Dia de los Muertos and old, rotting zombies, but instead you get shades-of-a-single-color bishonen and bishoujo.

The art would be SOOOO much better if the artist had more than two colors of paint to play with.  Your computer can generate millions and millions of colors, but you decide that dark shades of a single color per card will be just fine?  Maybe for you, but not for me.

Don't get me started on the indices that about 95% of the population (y'know, the right-handed people) will find awkward to use.  I own lefty decks, I'm a lefty, and I STILL find them a bit harder for some applications, like solitaire...

This deck needs help like I need sleep...

[Rose]

I was telling myself just a moment ago, "Y'know, myself, it's been FOREVER since we've seen a deck where the card color can be spotted from the edge of the deck, where some cards have print-to-the-bleed while others don't, where the artwork is monochrome to the point of dishwater dull AND the theme stated in the title 'Olde Bones' is largely ignored except for a few hair decorations in the young, manga-esque court characters..."

The name is ridiculous.  Makes you think of skeletons, Dia de los Muertos and old, rotting zombies, but instead you get shades-of-a-single-color bishonen and bishoujo.

The art would be SOOOO much better if the artist had more than two colors of paint to play with.  Your computer can generate millions and millions of colors, but you decide that dark shades of a single color per card will be just fine?  Maybe for you, but not for me.

Don't get me started on the indices that about 95% of the population (y'know, the right-handed people) will find awkward to use.  I own lefty decks, I'm a lefty, and I STILL find them a bit harder for some applications, like solitaire...

This deck needs help like I need sleep...

The colour card that can be spotted from the edge of the deck, had you not pointed this out I may not even had noticed! Yes the muted colours are also ruining what is still beautiful illustrations. I may msg the designer, maybe these things (and the indices) can be rectified? But still if they are compared in any way to the amazing Dia de Los Meurtos deck that is out there right now they will be bound to still fall short.
Hope you get some sleep Don. 

[Don Boyer]

Hope you get some sleep Don. 

I certainly try!

It's a shame that people take a great idea, can pull off the art, but show so little knowledge about deck design you wonder if they ever owned one...

[Yashi]

The indices have already been corrected in the latest update. Club courts are also complete now.

[Don Boyer]

The indices have already been corrected in the latest update. Club courts are also complete now.

They're still a little too far from the edge of the card, those indices.

Is the designer still using two different background colors for the two different colors of the suits?  It still acts as a giveaway.  Hard to feint that you're holding a club flush when the other players know you were dealt a red card...

Does the designer plan on adding any real contrast anytime soon?  Because without it, this deck will end up resembling well-mixed wet concrete.

[Yashi]

Is the designer still using two different background colors for the two different colors of the suits?  It still acts as a giveaway.  Hard to feint that you're holding a club flush when the other players know you were dealt a red card...

Does the designer plan on adding any real contrast anytime soon?  Because without it, this deck will end up resembling well-mixed wet concrete.

I doubt it since these concerns aren't expressed at the comments section of the campaign. Maybe it's about time someone invited the designer here.

[Don Boyer]

Is the designer still using two different background colors for the two different colors of the suits?  It still acts as a giveaway.  Hard to feint that you're holding a club flush when the other players know you were dealt a red card...

Does the designer plan on adding any real contrast anytime soon?  Because without it, this deck will end up resembling well-mixed wet concrete.

I doubt it since these concerns aren't expressed at the comments section of the campaign. Maybe it's about time someone invited the designer here.

I got someone already on the case!  Another wouldn't hurt, of course...

[Rose]

Is the designer still using two different background colors for the two different colors of the suits?  It still acts as a giveaway.  Hard to feint that you're holding a club flush when the other players know you were dealt a red card...

Does the designer plan on adding any real contrast anytime soon?  Because without it, this deck will end up resembling well-mixed wet concrete.

I doubt it since these concerns aren't expressed at the comments section of the campaign. Maybe it's about time someone invited the designer here.

I got someone already on the case!  Another wouldn't hurt, of course...

Yeah, I did invite Kevin to join us here and share his thoughts and plans...that was yesterday...perhaps another friendly welcoming message may inspire him.

[21]

Hi folks,

This is Kevin here from the Toronto Playing Card Co.  Myself and Emily have been hard at work over the past few months creating what you now see as the Olde Bones deck.  Sorry I did not get to this forum sooner, but Rose was kind enough to send me an invite and I have just seen this thread now.

So I know we are getting beat up pretty hard on this thing and I do get it.  I understand that to many playing card aficionados such as Don, we have overlooked certain key elements that optimizes these playing cards for functionality.  To be straight up, the mix up regarding the indexes was purely an oversight.  We have since re-released the artwork with the standard indexes and hope that it now satisfies this issue.

In response to the statement about being able to identify a card's suit from the side, this is also a good point and honestly not something we considered.  I really do not know if this will actually be the case (my gut feel is that any individual card's edge is too thin to identify this), but I also can recognize that Don has a great deal of experience with playing cards and may have encountered such an issue in the past. 

Right or wrong, our primary approach to this deck has been as a work of art.  We think that playing cards are an awesome medium to showcase an artist's talent.  I mean, where else can you spend 10 or 15 bucks and receive 54 individually crafted works of art?  Now I can already almost hear Don laughing to my previous statement, as it is very clear he thinks our deck is anything but art.  But like them or hate them, Emily did pour her soul into crafting these cards.  And I believe that is the thing about all good art - it will be loved by some and hated by others.

Another point Don has made was regarding the colour palate in general.  I won't spend too much time on this as this is clearly a personal preference.  To us, we were trying to achieve a certain mood.  It was a creative decision.  Some people like this mood for the deck while others may not.  If we are fortunate and do get into the stretch goals with this campaign, however, we are definitely playing with the idea of a more colourful "celebration deck".

The people who have supported our project on Kickstarter have been incredibly encouraging.  I have received many private messages from backers telling me that they think the deck is beautiful and that they cannot wait to have it in hand.  I am sure that just as many people do not like it.  But we really were not trying to be all things to all people. 

There has been so much learning that has come through this process.  I already know that on our next deck there are many things I would do differently.  Some of those things are functional points that have been highlighted here, other things are from an artistic perspective, and even some things are from a marketing standpoint.  To us though, this has been a wild ride that we are super stoked to be on.  We have amazing supporters that we are trying to produce the best product we can for.  We have had a very open dialogue with our supporters (I hope Rose who has messaged me privately would agree) and will continue to do so to respond to their needs and concerns.

What gets us really pumped is to think that this thing we have been working on that began with just the germ of an idea will be exported literally around the globe if this campaign is successful.  We have backers in Canada, US, England, Germany, Singapore, Australia, Russia, Denmark, Norway, Japan, and many places in between.  It's so cool to think this little deck we have been working on may actually resonate with and inspire someone on the other side of the planet.  How satisfying is that, right?

Anyway, I've rambled now.  I know there will still be many critics but I hope this helps to explain where we are coming from with this deck.  As a side note we just released our Jokers today.  I will post them here for Don to tear apart    

Is the designer still using two different background colors for the two different colors of the suits?  It still acts as a giveaway.  Hard to feint that you're holding a club flush when the other players know you were dealt a red card...

Does the designer plan on adding any real contrast anytime soon?  Because without it, this deck will end up resembling well-mixed wet concrete.

I doubt it since these concerns aren't expressed at the comments section of the campaign. Maybe it's about time someone invited the designer here.

I got someone already on the case!  Another wouldn't hurt, of course...

Yeah, I did invite Kevin to join us here and share his thoughts and plans...that was yesterday...perhaps another friendly welcoming message may inspire him.

[ATS]

In response to the edges - this is a must for fixing, especially if going to the extra $ by using USPCC who go to a lot of effort ensuring back images are perfectly centred and printed to stop numerous forms of edging being used due to printing faults. From looking purely at the edges I could do what is called strike dealing, passing an agent the exact cards I want them to hold (which would be simple with the court cards due to the red ropes and blue trees hitting the edges). Games such as euchre could then easily be rigged due to the colour bleeds. UNLV has videos teaching it's students about Gaming, with some specifically looking at cheating at cards (and a segment directly on this issue) - anyone who has been taught this, either at uni or through other means, would easily spot the faults with this.

[JacksonRobinson]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I feel it worth mentioning now.

The value of the colors used very similar and will make these cards a very muddle mess once they are printed by the USPCC. Please do some real world print test before finalizing the values. If you keep them at the current values I would bet my life savings that you will be extremely disappointed and also backers extremely dissatisfied once you get the actual cards. The cards are already very dark, and all values get crushed a step or two at time of print, and everything that you have grey will turn out black when printed... I promise.

friendly advice from experience,
Jackson

[Don Boyer]

Kevin, allow me to welcome you to the board and I thank you for stopping by.

First and foremost, never take our comments personally.  We're passionate about playing cards and they come from that love of cards, not hatred for an individual no one here has met personally!

Regarding the cards, I do speak from experience - you will be able to spot the different colors of the cards from the edge of the deck; I own a number of similar decks with this design flaw.  A simple solution would be a border around the edge that was the same color for all the cards.  White would look ugly, but a fade-to-gray would work with the deck's theme much better.

Please take Jackson Robinson's words to heart - he does have a fair amount of experience at this sort of thing.  Look up his profile at Kickstarter and you'll see what I'm talking about - he must have created between two and three dozen different deck designs and variants at the least, and he's got some of Kickstarter's most successful deck projects under his belt.  I agree with him wholeheartedly that when there's insufficient contrast overall in the deck design, it really does tend to turn to mud in the final print.  When it comes to playing cards, what you see on the computer screen is rarely identical to the end result that's coughed up by the printing press.  Again, experience - I've seen flawed decks suffer this same fate, and I mentioned it in hopes yours would NOT follow suit.

Believe it or not, I'm not actually opposed to the artwork - I recognize the style and I was until recently a very avid reader of manga.  But one can't afford every obsession, and playing cards seemed cheaper.  But we need to see more of it - I understand you're working on setting a mood with your choice of palette, but it works against you if the end result is too muddled to see clearly.  Find ways to convey the mood without relying too heavily on the dour tones and using other means to get the concept across.

Keep the artwork within the die lines of the cards.  It's another means of identifying a card from the edge of the deck.  I actually own a deck where the Queen of Hearts was specifically created with edges that are a slightly different shade - you wouldn't notice it at a casual glance, but I can cut the deck to that card with a great deal of accuracy, far more than random chance!  More importantly, my skill level as a magician is not as high as many professionals - so yes, if I can do it, others can as well.  Again, a fade-to-gray border will solve this problem.  In fact, you could consider it an opportunity for color and make the border red, or use it to assist with conveying the mood by making it black, allowing you to lighten other elements in the art for greater clarity.

Ordinarily I'd also be telling you things like "make sure the back and front have the same color at the cut edge" or "use Blah-Blah typeface in size X for the indices" or something like that, but I know this is a deck meant more for its art than for conjuring or a night of semi-professional poker.  Let the world REALLY see the art.

Please, consider yourself welcome here.  We actually do want your deck to not merely succeed, but to not disappoint when it's delivered, thus helping to keep it from being your first AND last deck.  There's a lot of genuine-article dreck out there in "deck-land" on Kickstarter - we try to encourage people who have something worthwhile that needs polishing and warn the card collecting world away from utter garbage.  Your work falls into the former category, not the latter.

[21]

Thank you very much, Don.  I really was not taking the criticism of this deck personally.  I recognize that it comes entirely from a place of passion, by a forum of people who just want to see beautiful and functional products.

Believe me, I am not dismissive of Jackson Robinson's advice.  I was a backer of his first deck on Kickstarter, and recognize that his work is second to none.  His decks are breathtaking, so when he talks, I very much listen.   

Jackson, thank you very much for the advice (and to you too for reiterating it, Don).  As you have both recommended, we will work towards creating a higher level of contrast within the artwork so as to ensure there are no issues at time of print. 

In regards to your other advice Don (and ATS), it has not fallen on deaf ears and we are very much thinking on this.  I certainly do not wish to alienate magicians or professional card players, and based on your experience do believe that your concerns are valid.  One of our priorities though is to do right by our current supporters.  At this stage some people may consider such a change to the background a significant one.  It is important that we balance the concerns expressed here with the rights of everyone who has so far supported our project.  I do not want our backers to feel like we have pulled a bait and switch.

Let me tell you my gut feel though and you can tell me if you think I am wrong.  I completely get that we should had conceived the artwork to be more functional from the very beginning and have certainly learned a lot in this process.  I can guarantee you that in the next deck we create these factors will be taken into account from the onset.  That being said, are these issues really that large a concern to magicians and card players?  For somebody like myself who has worked as a blackjack dealer, is a collector of custom decks, and has also played a lot of cards, I would NEVER play with my Federal 52 deck, for instance.  The deck is far too beautiful for that.  I would not risk damaging it through actual game play (and I think if I were a magician I would not risk it in tricks).  For any game play I use a standard Bicycle deck, and I imagine that magicians mostly use a standard style deck when performing tricks.  To me, a great custom deck is a work of art, and I treat the deck accordingly.

Perhaps this is not a use case that is as common as I think?

Kevin, allow me to welcome you to the board and I thank you for stopping by.

First and foremost, never take our comments personally.  We're passionate about playing cards and they come from that love of cards, not hatred for an individual no one here has met personally!

Regarding the cards, I do speak from experience - you will be able to spot the different colors of the cards from the edge of the deck; I own a number of similar decks with this design flaw.  A simple solution would be a border around the edge that was the same color for all the cards.  White would look ugly, but a fade-to-gray would work with the deck's theme much better.

Please take Jackson Robinson's words to heart - he does have a fair amount of experience at this sort of thing.  Look up his profile at Kickstarter and you'll see what I'm talking about - he must have created between two and three dozen different deck designs and variants at the least, and he's got some of Kickstarter's most successful deck projects under his belt.  I agree with him wholeheartedly that when there's insufficient contrast overall in the deck design, it really does tend to turn to mud in the final print.  When it comes to playing cards, what you see on the computer screen is rarely identical to the end result that's coughed up by the printing press.  Again, experience - I've seen flawed decks suffer this same fate, and I mentioned it in hopes yours would NOT follow suit.

Believe it or not, I'm not actually opposed to the artwork - I recognize the style and I was until recently a very avid reader of manga.  But one can't afford every obsession, and playing cards seemed cheaper.  But we need to see more of it - I understand you're working on setting a mood with your choice of palette, but it works against you if the end result is too muddled to see clearly.  Find ways to convey the mood without relying too heavily on the dour tones and using other means to get the concept across.

Keep the artwork within the die lines of the cards.  It's another means of identifying a card from the edge of the deck.  I actually own a deck where the Queen of Hearts was specifically created with edges that are a slightly different shade - you wouldn't notice it at a casual glance, but I can cut the deck to that card with a great deal of accuracy, far more than random chance!  More importantly, my skill level as a magician is not as high as many professionals - so yes, if I can do it, others can as well.  Again, a fade-to-gray border will solve this problem.  In fact, you could consider it an opportunity for color and make the border red, or use it to assist with conveying the mood by making it black, allowing you to lighten other elements in the art for greater clarity.

Ordinarily I'd also be telling you things like "make sure the back and front have the same color at the cut edge" or "use Blah-Blah typeface in size X for the indices" or something like that, but I know this is a deck meant more for its art than for conjuring or a night of semi-professional poker.  Let the world REALLY see the art.

Please, consider yourself welcome here.  We actually do want your deck to not merely succeed, but to not disappoint when it's delivered, thus helping to keep it from being your first AND last deck.  There's a lot of genuine-article dreck out there in "deck-land" on Kickstarter - we try to encourage people who have something worthwhile that needs polishing and warn the card collecting world away from utter garbage.  Your work falls into the former category, not the latter.

[Don Boyer]

Thank you very much, Don.  I really was not taking the criticism of this deck personally.  I recognize that it comes entirely from a place of passion, by a forum of people who just want to see beautiful and functional products.

Believe me, I am not dismissive of Jackson Robinson's advice.  I was a backer of his first deck on Kickstarter, and recognize that his work is second to none.  His decks are breathtaking, so when he talks, I very much listen.   

Jackson, thank you very much for the advice (and to you too for reiterating it, Don).  As you have both recommended, we will work towards creating a higher level of contrast within the artwork so as to ensure there are no issues at time of print. 

In regards to your other advice Don (and ATS), it has not fallen on deaf ears and we are very much thinking on this.  I certainly do not wish to alienate magicians or professional card players, and based on your experience do believe that your concerns are valid.  One of our priorities though is to do right by our current supporters.  At this stage some people may consider such a change to the background a significant one.  It is important that we balance the concerns expressed here with the rights of everyone who has so far supported our project.  I do not want our backers to feel like we have pulled a bait and switch.

Let me tell you my gut feel though and you can tell me if you think I am wrong.  I completely get that we should had conceived the artwork to be more functional from the very beginning and have certainly learned a lot in this process.  I can guarantee you that in the next deck we create these factors will be taken into account from the onset.  That being said, are these issues really that large a concern to magicians and card players?  For somebody like myself who has worked as a blackjack dealer, is a collector of custom decks, and has also played a lot of cards, I would NEVER play with my Federal 52 deck, for instance.  The deck is far too beautiful for that.  I would not risk damaging it through actual game play (and I think if I were a magician I would not risk it in tricks).  For any game play I use a standard Bicycle deck, and I imagine that magicians mostly use a standard style deck when performing tricks.  To me, a great custom deck is a work of art, and I treat the deck accordingly.

Perhaps this is not a use case that is as common as I think?

Here is my personal evaluation of your target audience.

Magicians: no.  While there are cases where a magician might use a custom deck depending on the audience he or she is performing for, for most "general purpose" performances, they'll use decks that are recognizable by their audience.  Some have said it's because people will think custom decks are trick decks, to which I call bullshit.  It's more out of a desire to create a connection with the audience - they see standard faces with limited alteration and subconsciously think, "oh, I have cards like that back home!"  A magician at a fan convention might use this deck, but that's a very specialized circumstance.

Hardcore poker players: no.  Hardcore poker players want to use what the pros use.  The pros use 100% plastic bridge-sized decks with standard indices and a simple two-way design on the back.  Period.  Maybe older players will make a concession to age and use jumbo indices or four-color suits, maybe a European player will use a deck with four indices instead of just two and/or with Parisian pips instead of International Standard.  But those are about the only concessions you'd find.

Cardists: maybe but unlikely.  If your cards made some beautiful, colorful, changing patterns when used in cardistry routines, perhaps, but some prefer a simpler deck so their audience will be awed by the skill of the manipulation of the cards more than by the cards themselves.  In the present color palette, it would be an unlikely choice.

Art lovers: an unqualified yes, especially if they love manga/anime, or at the least consider the images attractive.

Casual card players: sure, why not?  Cards are meant to be played with, not just stared at!  The price is a bit higher than the Bicycles they can buy at the corner drugstore chain, but then again those don't look as cool.

Collectors: some will like the design, some won't; some will want to open a pack and have at least one spare for the collection, some will never open a pack, placing it on a wall display or in a box somewhere.

Here's the important thing you need to remember - art lovers and casual card players are a far larger market than all those other categories combined!  Collectors barely make up a percentage point of a percentage point of the overall card market!  We're sought after simply because in general collectors will spend more on cards than other members of the card-buying market overall, thus representing an outsized sales per capita.

It is perfectly understandable to not want to alienate some of your present backers, since all of the changes proposed would make the project substantially different than the one you started with.  Should you ever end up making a second edition, they're worth keeping in mind, as well as when you create your next deck.

[21]

Hi Don,

I wish I had come to this forum sooner, your insights really are fantastic.  Thank you for taking the time.  If we do make any significant changes or hit a funding level in which we can release a second edition, I will be sure to share it with you and this forum for feedback.

As I mentioned, this has been a learning a process for us.  I think from what I have received here, and what we have learned now going through this process, any new deck design we create in the future will be that much better for it.

Thanks again,
Kevin


 

Thank you very much, Don.  I really was not taking the criticism of this deck personally.  I recognize that it comes entirely from a place of passion, by a forum of people who just want to see beautiful and functional products.

Believe me, I am not dismissive of Jackson Robinson's advice.  I was a backer of his first deck on Kickstarter, and recognize that his work is second to none.  His decks are breathtaking, so when he talks, I very much listen.   

Jackson, thank you very much for the advice (and to you too for reiterating it, Don).  As you have both recommended, we will work towards creating a higher level of contrast within the artwork so as to ensure there are no issues at time of print. 

In regards to your other advice Don (and ATS), it has not fallen on deaf ears and we are very much thinking on this.  I certainly do not wish to alienate magicians or professional card players, and based on your experience do believe that your concerns are valid.  One of our priorities though is to do right by our current supporters.  At this stage some people may consider such a change to the background a significant one.  It is important that we balance the concerns expressed here with the rights of everyone who has so far supported our project.  I do not want our backers to feel like we have pulled a bait and switch.

Let me tell you my gut feel though and you can tell me if you think I am wrong.  I completely get that we should had conceived the artwork to be more functional from the very beginning and have certainly learned a lot in this process.  I can guarantee you that in the next deck we create these factors will be taken into account from the onset.  That being said, are these issues really that large a concern to magicians and card players?  For somebody like myself who has worked as a blackjack dealer, is a collector of custom decks, and has also played a lot of cards, I would NEVER play with my Federal 52 deck, for instance.  The deck is far too beautiful for that.  I would not risk damaging it through actual game play (and I think if I were a magician I would not risk it in tricks).  For any game play I use a standard Bicycle deck, and I imagine that magicians mostly use a standard style deck when performing tricks.  To me, a great custom deck is a work of art, and I treat the deck accordingly.

Perhaps this is not a use case that is as common as I think?

Here is my personal evaluation of your target audience.

Magicians: no.  While there are cases where a magician might use a custom deck depending on the audience he or she is performing for, for most "general purpose" performances, they'll use decks that are recognizable by their audience.  Some have said it's because people will think custom decks are trick decks, to which I call bullshit.  It's more out of a desire to create a connection with the audience - they see standard faces with limited alteration and subconsciously think, "oh, I have cards like that back home!"  A magician at a fan convention might use this deck, but that's a very specialized circumstance.

Hardcore poker players: no.  Hardcore poker players want to use what the pros use.  The pros use 100% plastic bridge-sized decks with standard indices and a simple two-way design on the back.  Period.  Maybe older players will make a concession to age and use jumbo indices or four-color suits, maybe a European player will use a deck with four indices instead of just two and/or with Parisian pips instead of International Standard.  But those are about the only concessions you'd find.

Cardists: maybe but unlikely.  If your cards made some beautiful, colorful, changing patterns when used in cardistry routines, perhaps, but some prefer a simpler deck so their audience will be awed by the skill of the manipulation of the cards more than by the cards themselves.  In the present color palette, it would be an unlikely choice.

Art lovers: an unqualified yes, especially if they love manga/anime, or at the least consider the images attractive.

Casual card players: sure, why not?  Cards are meant to be played with, not just stared at!  The price is a bit higher than the Bicycles they can buy at the corner drugstore chain, but then again those don't look as cool.

Collectors: some will like the design, some won't; some will want to open a pack and have at least one spare for the collection, some will never open a pack, placing it on a wall display or in a box somewhere.

Here's the important thing you need to remember - art lovers and casual card players are a far larger market than all those other categories combined!  Collectors barely make up a percentage point of a percentage point of the overall card market!  We're sought after simply because in general collectors will spend more on cards than other members of the card-buying market overall, thus representing an outsized sales per capita.

It is perfectly understandable to not want to alienate some of your present backers, since all of the changes proposed would make the project substantially different than the one you started with.  Should you ever end up making a second edition, they're worth keeping in mind, as well as when you create your next deck.