Lost Wax Playing Cards (KS)

[badpete69]

Item of interest. You can pledge for a yearly supply hehehe

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/975361503/lost-wax-playing-cards

[Marcus]

I think I'll need to back this one. Having gone through over 50 decks per year I'm heavily amused by the "yearly supply" of six to nine decks though. I guess magicians aren't really the target group here. 

[Don Boyer]

It's not a magician's deck - not that that actually means anything, really.

It's an attractive enough deck, but it's not terribly exciting either, especially in the presentation.  We read a lot about the Benin Empire and see very little of the cards themselves.

BTW, it has repeating courts.  Lazy.  He makes you think they're unique individuals in his descriptions, but they aren't.

It also appears that the cards have already been made.  I could be wrong, but this looks like the deck designer thanking the company that did the photography for him - SEPTEMBER of LAST YEAR.
http://www.powproductphotography.com/?bne_testimonials=lost-wax-playing-cards-2

It was featured on the Retail Design Blog in October last year.
http://retaildesignblog.net/?s=lost+wax+playing+cards

[Rob Wright]

$38,733 goal   
Each set of Lost Wax Playing Cards contains 54 playing cards /Each deck will be manufactured by The United States Playing Cards Company. 
For $48 you get 6 decks and a tote bag (for those of you that cannot do quick math, that's $8 a deck + a free tote bag) 

Well.................Good luck with that!

[Don Boyer]

I just realized, that IS a bizarrely high goal.  Especially when considering the deck seems to have already been made...

[Rose]

Agree, that is a large goal, why is it costing so much to make? I do really like the style, it's very modern, well from what I could see, the video shows a lot of the box which has made me wonder how the number cards look and the deck as a whole.

[Don Boyer]

As far as I can tell, there's no good reason for such a goal - the deck appears to have been made already.  It was featured all over the place in September and October, mostly by the artist.  They aren't expensive, nor are they diamond encrusted.  He's added rewards for buying by the brick, but the deck is the only thing selling - he's giving away the only other reward, a tote bag, with the decks.

The math, however, is hairy bat-guano crazy...

Goal is $38,733 - a nice, round number... 

Assume every backer gets a deck for the maximum price of a domestic one-deck reward, $15.
$38,733.00 goal
   ÷ $15.00 per deck
   2,582.20 decks ordered/backers needed to reach goal
Only the HUGEST projects in playing cards get this many backers or more.

Let's make it easier - assume everyone paid the maximum $20 per deck for international orders.
$38,733.00 goal
   ÷ $20.00 per deck
   1,936.65 decks ordered/backers needed to reach goal
I don't think even Jackson Robinson had this many backers for Federal 52, Part I

But here's the thing - he makes it HARDER to reach his goal by offering his discounts.
Assume every deck sold goes for the price of a six-pack at domestic rates, $8 per deck.

$38,733.00       goal
     ÷ $8.00       per deck
   4,841.625      decks ordered to reach goal
     ÷   6.00       decks per backer
      806.9375     backers needed to reach goal

I have serious doubts that there are over 800 people in this country willing to shell out $48 for a half-brick of these.  The bigger the discount, the more ridiculous and difficult to achieve his goal becomes.

[GBAllison]

As far as I can tell, there's no good reason for such a goal - the deck appears to have been made already.  It was featured all over the place in September and October, mostly by the artist.  They aren't expensive, nor are they diamond encrusted.  He's added rewards for buying by the brick, but the deck is the only thing selling - he's giving away the only other reward, a tote bag, with the decks.

The math, however, is hairy bat-guano crazy...

I don't mean to be mean.

But how is this Nigerian art deck different from the eight-zillion Nigerian email scams we've all received employing bad grammar and hairy bat-guano crazy story lines to try to get you to email them your money, name, address and other personal information?  Answer:  Well, it's on Kickstarter.  Which has never had anyone come in and try to scam the playing card community.  Where every project creator, ever, has been 100% honest and trustworthy.  And where red flags always turn out to be innocent coincidences.  ... Oh wait.

If there was EVER a project that screamed SCAM from every pore, this would be it.  The fact that the ridiculously high goal makes it almost impossible for the scam to work does not turn down the volume on the screaming.

I love the font.  And the artwork is OK.  I would pay several dollars for a deck.  Definitely more than 3.  Maybe even more than 4.  But not to someone carrying so many red flags.

Yikes.

[Tade]

When I began this project I never intended on scamming anyone and I still don't. Creative projects require more than simply manufacturing a batch of goods. They involve hiring and working with designers, creating a website, funding a targeted PR campaign, paying photographers for images, paying filmmakers to bring videos to life etc. Kickstarter is a platform for creative projects and my hope was to use it to bring my project to life. I've worked on this diligently for 2 years; never once did scamming anyone come to mind. It’s too bad I'm Nigerian. If I wasn't I may have come off as more honest and trustworthy and this obviously wouldn't strike you as a scam.

Im not sure what you mean with regards to repeating courts. The King, Queen and Jack are different. They have the same posture (this actually posed a huge design problem for us—the profile seemed like the only workable pose) but different weapons in the different suits. I didn’t like the Jack in the first prototype we manufactured that’s why I omitted an image of it on kickstarter. The Jack in the new prototype hasn’t been manufactured yet (need to raise money) so I’ve added an image of it here as well as other pattern ideas for subsequent decks and an image of a number card.

Please see: /Users/oabidoye/Desktop/Final Inspiration Board.png

The detailing in the package (like the textured surface and yellow inner sleeves) require added costs at USPCC. The marginal cost for mine is slightly higher. I will be producing 7200 units at USPCC. I estimate sending about 2200 units to my backers and I plan on bringing the remaining 5000 units to market by Christmas. In addition to the cost of goods I have other start up and marketing costs. My pledge goal isn't going solely towards manufacturing the cards but on other costs as well.

The cards haven't been made yet. I made a prototype in order to promote the project but I haven't produced the final deck yet. That's why I need to raise money on kickstarter: to produce and effectively launch these cards.

I welcome any feedback or other suggestions you might have.

Thanks so much.

[Rob Wright]

First off, welcome to the forum tack2310.
Please understand, we are a bunch of sceptics around here, and we are all passionate about playing cards.

To be honest, there are a lot of issues with your project. The cards are fine enough. It's everything else.
1. Your funding goal is extremely high. At $38,733 you are already above what most playing card projects raise. A typical USPCC card project can be done for about $15,000.
2. Why do you need to produce 7,200 units? USPCC's min run is 2500. Your funding goal should be to get the 2,500. If your project does good, and overfunds- then plan to order more than 2,500
3. Your plan is to sell 2,200 decks on KS. That doesn't work. Your average price per deck is less than $9. 2,200 x $9= $19,800. You would be about $19,000 short on your goal.
4. A lot of your pledges are for $8 or less. By the time you account for your cost of each deck, KS/Amazon fees, packaging, shipping, and your marketing. That would be breaking about even.
5. You only have one style of deck- Most projects that do over $40k have 2 or more different decks.

You want to hit the Jackpot on your first project. That usually doesn't work.
Think about trying to get the cards made at a minimum. If you hit the Jackpot. then it's all good.

Whether your project does good, or fails. Stick around the forum. Get to know the people. I think you will find, most are willing to help, if you ask. If you get a chance. Head over to the Introduce Yourself thread, and introduce yourself. Good luck.

[Don Boyer]

Hello, tack2310.  Shall I call you tack? 

Your budget far exceeds the costs needed to produce a typical deck project.  This means you're very unlikely to hit your goal, and thus will receive none of the funds, having expended a lot of time and effort for nothing.  It's clear you either haven't done a careful analysis of your real costs or that you've got way more costs than are actually necessary.  Either way, you need to rework the project so the numbers line up with reality.

Most creators don't hire designers - they are designers.  The typical PR campaign consists of people going to blogs and forums that have potential customers who'd be interested in their design.  It's not like you have to hire a PR firm for global exposure in magazines and television.

If the poses are the same on all of the court cards, it makes for a boring deck design, even if the weapons vary from card to card.  For a custom deck, it feels to some buyers like it shows a lack of originality.

Please see: /Users/oabidoye/Desktop/Final Inspiration Board.png

You just referenced a PNG image file on your computer's desktop.  I'm afraid we can't see it here unless you attach it to your post.  Unless of course we use really powerful telescopes and spy satellites! 

Best suggestion I can give: close the project.  Determine your REAL costs.  Eliminate anything from your budget that isn't necessary.  Your budget needs to cover the cost of printing the cards and shipping those earned as rewards to your backers - and not too much else.  You're planning to sell 5,000 decks at retail - that's where the money to pay for the other stuff should be coming from, because putting it into the goal makes the goal less likely to be reached.  THEN you get your better-controlled costs and more realistic budget and make a workable goal, then relaunch.

Without the decks, nothing happens, and with your present goal being so high, the decks won't happen.

Improving the design would also be a good idea while all that's taking place.  Make it really unique and stand out.  You're talking about ancient African royalty, but the court card faces are practically generic.  Make them look like REAL Benin Kings, Queen Mothers and Court Servants, with names, birthdates, etc., who actually made a mark on history.

[Aaron]

I really like these, the simplicity of the cards is a very nice look. And the tuck box is really cool. Definatly one I'm happy backing! That is, in fact if the designer can do his homework and understand what he is doing! I like the design though!

[Tade]

Hi guys,

Please feel free to call me Tade.

I really appreciate the constructive criticism. To be honest i know my pledge amount is relatively high.

Based on other playing card projects on kickstarter I estimated about 2000 cards give or take to ship to my backers. I added this amount to the number of cards I need to produce (5000), giving me a total of about 7000 cards. I decided to produce 5000 (plus the 2000 for backers) at USPCC because it was a healthy amount to get my project off the ground and because producing twice the minimum at USPCC brings my unit cost down by a significant amount. I need this unit cost to make a healthy growth margin. The cost of producing the cards alone is higher than the $15000 you pointed out and I need to account for other startup costs as well. Im still trying to figure out if its best to cancel, slash costs, settle for a lower amount and hope i overfund. But a lot of the costs go into actually bringing the cards to market, costs that are essential to selling the cards and cant be paid for after the cards are sold.

In terms 'selling' the apprx 2000, I assumed that if i included the amount of producing the additional 2000 units and the approximate cost of shipping them to the 1k plus backers then I would be OK. Im a little confused by your 3rd and 4th point. Are you inferring that i'm in fact not raising enough to fulfill the cards to my backers? If so, kindly explain.

In terms of hiring a designer, I don't have the technical skills for photoshop and illustrator but I art directed the project from start to finish-- working hand in hand with the designer every step of the way. You're right the face cards may be a little simplistic and I still think the design needs to evolve but I had budget constraints. For instance the Jack in my initial sample wasn't up to par thats why i don't have images of it in my first prototype. I have included a file of the revised Jack, and some pattern inspiration for an improved package. My hope is that as the brand grows, the design will as well. Perhaps I might have the opportunity to work with one of you!

I really appreciate the advice. Ill see how things go in the next few days before I make a decision but I would appreciate any referrals for blogs or any support.

Thanks so much

[Rob Wright]

3. Your plan is to sell 2,200 decks on KS. That doesn't work. Your average price per deck is less than $9. 2,200 x $9= $19,800. You would be about $19,000 short on your goal.
4. A lot of your pledges are for $8 or less. By the time you account for your cost of each deck, KS/Amazon fees, packaging, shipping, and your marketing. That would be breaking about even.

In terms 'selling' the apprx 2000, I assumed that if i included the amount of producing the additional 2000 units and the approximate cost of shipping them to the 1k plus backers then I would be OK. Im a little confused by your 3rd and 4th point. Are you inferring that i'm in fact not raising enough to fulfill the cards to my backers? If so, kindly explain.

#3- your goal is $38,733. You hope to sell 2200 units on KickStarter. Your average price per deck is $9 or less. that only equals $19,800(funded)- $38,733(goal)=  negative $18,933. Where are you going to make up the rest of your goal? To reach your goal, you will have to sell over 4300 units on KS. Keep in mind- most projects only sell about 1500 of each unit.

#4- At $8-$9 per unit. Your profit margin is pretty slim. Add your cost per deck, designer fees, shipping to US customers, packaging, KS fees, Amazon's fees. That adds up to you not making very much money, if any.

Based on other playing card projects on kickstarter I estimated about 2000 cards give or take to ship to my backers. I added this amount to the number of cards I need to produce (5000), giving me a total of about 7000 cards. I decided to produce 5000 (plus the 2000 for backers) at USPCC because it was a healthy amount to get my project off the ground and because producing twice the minimum at USPCC brings my unit cost down by a significant amount. I need this unit cost to make a healthy growth margin. The cost of producing the cards alone is higher than the $15000 you pointed out and I need to account for other startup costs as well. Im still trying to figure out if its best to cancel, slash costs, settle for a lower amount and hope i overfund. But a lot of the costs go into actually bringing the cards to market, costs that are essential to selling the cards and cant be paid for after the cards are sold.

I'm not sure why you need 7000 decks? Your discount is a 5000, and then even more discount at 10,000. If you order 5000, and sold 2000 on KS. You would still have 3000 units to sell after. Your numbers just don't make since.

You should cancel your project. Focus on getting a 2500 print run, or get a price from Expert PCC for a 1000 print run.
You can't sell decks of cards on KS for under $9 a piece. You can't make any money doing that. Your average price should be $10 or higher.
Good luck! 

[Don Boyer]

Hi guys,

Please feel free to call me Tade.

I really appreciate the constructive criticism. To be honest i know my pledge amount is relatively high.

Based on other playing card projects on kickstarter I estimated about 2000 cards give or take to ship to my backers. I added this amount to the number of cards I need to produce (5000), giving me a total of about 7000 cards. I decided to produce 5000 (plus the 2000 for backers) at USPCC because it was a healthy amount to get my project off the ground and because producing twice the minimum at USPCC brings my unit cost down by a significant amount. I need this unit cost to make a healthy growth margin. The cost of producing the cards alone is higher than the $15000 you pointed out and I need to account for other startup costs as well. Im still trying to figure out if its best to cancel, slash costs, settle for a lower amount and hope i overfund. But a lot of the costs go into actually bringing the cards to market, costs that are essential to selling the cards and cant be paid for after the cards are sold.

In terms 'selling' the apprx 2000, I assumed that if i included the amount of producing the additional 2000 units and the approximate cost of shipping them to the 1k plus backers then I would be OK. Im a little confused by your 3rd and 4th point. Are you inferring that i'm in fact not raising enough to fulfill the cards to my backers? If so, kindly explain.

In terms of hiring a designer, I don't have the technical skills for photoshop and illustrator but I art directed the project from start to finish-- working hand in hand with the designer every step of the way. You're right the face cards may be a little simplistic and I still think the design needs to evolve but I had budget constraints. For instance the Jack in my initial sample wasn't up to par thats why i don't have images of it in my first prototype. I have included a file of the revised Jack, and some pattern inspiration for an improved package. My hope is that as the brand grows, the design will as well. Perhaps I might have the opportunity to work with one of you!

I really appreciate the advice. Ill see how things go in the next few days before I make a decision but I would appreciate any referrals for blogs or any support.

Thanks so much

What this boils down to in the simplest terms is that you're expecting the sale of approximately 2,000 decks to pay for the printing of 7,000 decks.  As Rob pointed out, you're going to have a serious shortfall and would need to sell way more cards on KS than you planned to in order to reach that goal.  And that assumes that you can sell 2,000 decks in the first place - it's more than a lot of projects manage to achieve, especially when they're not a total full-custom job.

$38,733 is your goal and you expect the sale of 2,000 decks to meet that goal.  Those decks would have to sell at an average price of $19.3665 each, which is not even close to what they're selling for.  Each deck short of that 2,000-deck sales goal brings the necessary average price higher - if you only sold 1,000, for example, now the average price needed to reach that goal is $38.733.

You will NOT reach your goal unless your project is wildly, violently successful.  This far into the project, you have only 49 backers, so it's not even a lukewarm success - it's an ice-cold streak heading to an unsuccessful end.  Kicktraq is predicting that you'll not even make it one-quarter of the way to the goal as of right now: http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/975361503/lost-wax-playing-cards/

So I'll reiterate to you that you need to close this project, re-evaluate all of your costs and make a more realistic goal - this project has little chance at all of succeeding, and not because it's a bad project, but because the math used to set the goal is all wrong.

[Tade]

Thanks so much for the advice. Would it be OK if I emailed either of you? (Don or Rob?)

[Rose]

Welcome to The Discourse Tade, it is always good to have creators here sharing their insight and projects, we all really appreciate it. So thanks for being here and I wish you good luck with your project!

[Don Boyer]

Thanks so much for the advice. Would it be OK if I emailed either of you? (Don or Rob?)

I'm available for consulting work.  Contact me by private message.  My rates are reasonable.