RongoRongo (KS)

[tomas]

Why is it OK for designers to be subjected to continuous personal attacks but it’s a “foul attitude” when we speak back?

The bigot card is well deserved. Suggesting that the 1,500 year civilization changes the names of their gods to “avoid confusion” with “Early Bird” pricing is the very definition of the word.

[Nurul]

Why is it OK for designers to be subjected to continuous personal attacks but it’s a “foul attitude” when we speak back?

The bigot card is well deserved. Suggesting that the 1,500 year civilization changes the names of their gods to “avoid confusion” with “Early Bird” pricing is the very definition of the word.

There's a certain manner of speaking to people, and yours is clearly quite rude, and you're too blind to see that. I'm not saying Don was in the wrong for certain things, but as the designer you're trying to promote your product. You come across as a very displeasing person, and as a result it's putting me off your product. Yes, you have a number of people backing your project, however, a majority of them are probably unaware of your attitude.
The way your character comes across, it brings out the worst in others. I'm not saying that you are the only one that does this, I've seen many others act the same. You bring a lot of negativity to your project.

Also, if you feel it's a personal attack, take it to PMs and resolve it there because it's not really doing any favours.

[HolyJJ]

I've just backed this project -- I'm in for half a brick.

I really like the faces on this cards. I don't usually like non-traditional faces at all, because they are as practical to me as transparent tippex when it comes to doing my favourite gambling demos or using them for games... however, I do like these a lot. I like items (not just playing cards) which are based on diverse and colourful cultures from around the world.

These cards (provided that it gets funded) will be one of those few that I can be happy just to look at and appreciate. The fact that it's going to be printed by EPCC means that it will be high quality, unlike the usual mediocre and shoddy quality cards that come out of Erlanger.

Regarding the tempers that have been flaring here... look, things like this are bound to happen. People hold culture, religion, and tradition close to their hearts, and they are more than entitled to... and so if anyone takes a pop at any of those things, expecting something of a Gandhian "turn the other cheek" approach just because the person is a designer is extremely naive. Being a designer doesn't mean that you are to be stoic about something you're extremely passionate about.

It's highly subjective. Some people will think that it's an overaction by Tomas, because they themselves are personally not attached to that which he is passionate about.

Similarly, I can make a sarcastic remark about somebody's mother, and then claim that they are over-reacting when they give a fairly angry response. I'd think nothing about the sarcastic comment I make, because I'm not an emotional guy... but to expect others to have exactly the same mindframe as me when it comes to insulting mothers, would be silly.

And no, I'm not anti-Don -- I'm a big fan of his knowledge about playing cards, the playing card industry, and his insights. Also, I have no reason to believe that he intentionally made any remarks that were taken as offensive -- Don just spoke (or rather typed), in his usual style.

The way I see it, Tomas is a talented designer who has a great deck, and Don is a respected guy on the forum and in the industry. This whole thing shouldn't mean that anyone is deemed to be evil/arrogant.

Back to the deck, I'm in brother. Hope the funding goal gets reached

[tomas]

Nurul,

You are making very valid points and the tone of the comments should be changed.

I have the right to defend my work when I am faced with misinformation and personal attacks designed to discredit the project.

I also felt compelled to question bizarre theories about changing names of gods of an ancient civilization, the subject of my project.
I never attempted to be rude, but it’s clear that I failed and I apologize for that.

[Nurul]

Nurul,

You are making very valid points and the tone of the comments should be changed.

I have the right to defend my work when I am faced with misinformation and personal attacks designed to discredit the project.

I also felt compelled to question bizarre theories about changing names of gods of an ancient civilization, the subject of my project.
I never attempted to be rude, but it’s clear that I failed and I apologize for that.

Tomas, I understand your situation. Like HolyJJ pointed out, it's a passion and something close to you. Something that I didn't quite click on to before, so apologies for that.
You have every right to correct others if you feel that the knowledge and research is incorrect, but it should be done in a coherent manner.
I wish you the best in this project.

[tomas]

HolyJJ

I truly appreciate you backing this project.

Thank you for your comments, I think they go to the core of the issue much better than I expressed before.

I do feel passionate about the subject of Easter Island culture and RongoRongo glyphs and I felt utterly offended by theories presented here. My attempts to give the other party the “benefit of a doubt” failed miserably when the theories escalated beyond any sense and reason. That does not excuse my tone, but maybe explains the reasons for my reaction.

[Will W.]

Not so much the topic or even the content of the conversation.  For me it was mostly the little jabs. " silly, pompous, bigotry, fool, ignorant, lack of humor  etc. etc.  An apology might be in order on both sides....

[tomas]

You are absolutely correct, this silliness went much too far.

My apologies to Don for all my jabs.

I hope we can move on to talk about the subject matter of the deck RongoRongo.

[Don Boyer]

I will immediately agree about things going to far.

Perhaps I was a little sarcastic at points, so for that, I apologize.

There are a few points that have me very curious, however, which I would like to have clarified.

You mention that you were offended by my initial remarks and insist that you're passionate about Easter Island culture and Rongorongo glyphs.  Are you an Easter Islander?  Do you have some personal connection to these glyphs?  Your first name appears to be of Spanish origin, while your last name appears to be of Eastern European origin, which leads one to believe that you're anything but Polynesian, but guesses made about the origins of one's name have never conclusively proved anything before.

You insist that the culture referred to this person as "Birdman," using that exact word as it appears in English.  You also state that the culture has existed for 1,500 years.  I suggested using the original term in the native language - something which would be anything but bigoted or insensitive.  But from the statements you were making, you're implying that they've always used the term "Birdman" - are you trying to tell us that English has been the native language of Rapa Nui for the last 1,500 years?  Evidence would suggest otherwise.

If anything, I've been trying to express GREATER cultural sensitivity by suggesting the use of the native language for native terms.  So you'll have to forgive me if I've found your statements somewhat confusing.

As far as your statements about the glyphs - they're contradictory.  You suggest in one sentence that the glyphs are still a mystery and as of yet undeciphered.  But in several other sentences, you offer translations, names and sentences with the glyphs which imply that you know the true translations.  If you're opting to use the glyphs and attach your own meanings to them because you find them beautiful, meaningful, thought-provoking, etc., that's perfectly fine - but say so, clearly, and don't contradict your own statements.

Bear one thing in mind, please.  Whether or not I like your deck is completely immaterial to this discussion.  This is not a world where my tastes and opinions are the only ones that matter.  The membership here can - and frequently does - disagree with my opinions, and neither they nor I lose a moment of sleep over it.  I'm just another member here, regardless of whatever rank I hold, and my opinions are no more authoritative than anyone else's about any particular topic.  People are indeed welcome to disagree with my opinions - but disagreeing with facts is a completely different matter.

I was stating researched facts on the topics of Rapa Nui, its language and the glyphs, and you were arguing about them as if they were my opinions.  You were shouting them down as all being inaccurate - but when enough people educated on a subject are all saying pretty much the same thing about that subject, it's harder to give your statements as much weight against them, especially when to the best of our knowledge, you are not a scholar on the subject.  It's no different from the people who shout at the top of their lungs that the Moon landing, the Holocaust, the JFK assassination and the death of Elvis Presley never took place and were all faked, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.  It doesn't make such statements any more factual, regardless of how loudly they are expressed.  Squeaky wheels do get more grease, but it doesn't make the squeaking sound any less unpleasant.

[tomas]

It is not your sarcasm which was the problem for me. It was the fact that you appeared, from my point of view, to act as a provocateur. It is difficult to engage in any discussion with a person of such attitude; the facts become irrelevant, the science immaterial, and the only goal for such person is to create chaos.

You appeared, from my point of view, to have used methods common for such scenario:

(A)   Take an obvious fact and reverse it, in order to force the other side to spend a lot of time responding to it and reaching, it the best case scenario, the boring conclusion or, in the worst case scenario, the point of exhaustion. Some examples of such behavior are: questioning the existence of gravity or a birth certificate of President Obama.

(B)   Throw an avalanche of questions; totally ignore the answers, repeat. Add some insults for a good measure. A good example would be paparazzi screaming insults at a wife of an actor to take a photo of an actor in rage.

(C)   Use pseudo logic to appear to prove a point. One negative example proves the theory false, many positive examples prove nothing. The theory “all numbers are lower than 10” is easily disproved with the number 11. On the other hand, many examples prove nothing. The theory “all numbers are lower than 10” is not proved with 9 examples from 1 to 9. In your case you use the second method by providing examples of true statements and implying, against the rules of logic, that your theory is correct.

(D)   In a typical discussion, one person would say “the apple is red,” the other would say “the apple is green,” we would look at the photo and conclude that one party was correct and move on to determine the color of a banana. You appear to use a different method: ignoring the arguments of another side, reject the obvious conclusion and continue with other questions.

For all the reasons above I concluded that you appear, to me, not interested in discussing any facts and you only goal appears to be, from my point of view, to create chaos.

So, if you are truly interested in discussing Easter Island and my deck let’s take it one topic at a time, reach some conclusion without making the other person feel like it’s a rectal exam, and move on to the next question.

Topic:
Yam diet on Easter Island.


You commented:
“As far as yams being the most common vegetable "a while back" - that was hundreds of years ago!  Short of making a chemical analysis of the soil and some educated guesses, there's no way to know anything about the vegetation of the time.  It rots, it decomposes, it turns to soil, it becomes lost to time.”

We don’t examine thousand-year old yams; they are, indeed, lost to time. This is an example of (C) – stating the obvious true statement (yams lost to time) and implying, against the rules of logic, that your entire theory is correct. This is also an example of (A).

We have, indeed, precise scientific methods of determining diets of civilizations not only 1,500 years old, but our 10,000 year old ancestors. Large volumes of books were written about the subject of chemistry and hominid fossils.

The protein diet is determined by measuring heavy and light nitrogen isotopes in fossilized bones; the tooth enamel provides us with the measurement of two forms of carbon, 13^C and 12^C, which are markers for specific food types.

So yes, we are absolutely scientifically certain that the population of Easter Island had a diet based mostly on fish before the eco-collapse, and the diet was radically changed to mostly Polynesian rats and yams after the trees and the finishing industry disappeared.

There were several well funded scientific expeditions to Easter Island devoted to this subject. The British Museum, which houses the most famous MOAI in the West, Hoa Hakananai’a, is extremely active in the scientific research of the ancient Easter Island civilization, including their diet.

The diets of ancient civilizations can be precisely determined through the measurements of isotopes and the carbon composition of teeth. When making such measurements using fossilized bones/teeth of children who are still growing, the markers are extremely well defined.

So, when trying to determine the diet of a fossil of a single tooth from millions of years ago, we face real challenges. In our example we have a massive amount of fossils of children and adults on Easter Island available to study and the scientists concluded the exact composition of their diet.

The story of yam does not end there. The civilization of Easter Island, post eco-collapse, had to deal with the lack of fertilizers and they invented an unusual method of farming using “rock gardens.” Huge areas of land were covered with rocks which provided the nutrition for eroded soil. Detailed analysis of these rocks shows that the gardens were used almost exclusively for yam.

[sprouts1115]

I have to say this is getting to be a most interesting thread....

@Eoghann can I steal your pic.  Are you all done?  Or is there more to say?

@tomas - I think the butt and a foot is going to show.  You proved it with this pic. I would think if you're a bird man with 4 feet I would want to be on the ground, but your the artist and interoperation is subject to speculation.   

[tomas]

@sprouts1115

Your laser focus on one part of the body should be applauded; you are clearly an expert in the field of big butts. You are absolutely correct; in this case the butts will be visible.

You may want to step back and look at the entire body of the birdman: it’s a man with a head of a bird, so the number of legs is 2, not 4.

[Don Boyer]

Tomas, if you believe my purpose here is to act as an agent provocateur, you really don't know me very well.

You've successfully discussed one point - the yam diet.  Probably the least important of the questions raised.

Your silence on the other questions speaks volumes.

Hopefully, I didn't insert the endoscopic probe too deeply - wouldn't want any tissue damage... 

(And you thought I had no sense of humor!)

[tomas]

Don,

I don’t know anything about you.
You’ve proven to have a sense of humor, so that’s a good start.

We then agreed that yam was consumed on Easter Island. For anyone interested, the glyph of yam is featured on Queen of Hearts. Do we know that for a fact? Nope, like everything else with RongoRongo, it’s an educated guess, but there is a strong consensus about this glyph, so the Queen of Hearts is most likely surrounded by yams.

My silence on other questions does not speak volumes; we just need to take them one at the time.
That was an example of sarcasm which you promised to avoid.

Going down the list:

Am I an Easter Islander?
No, I am not.

Do I have a connection to glyphs?
Well, I do as a typographer who worked with type for a big part of my life, and as an author of this project. I don’t have a “blood” connection to the island. If your question is about my initial interest in Easter Island then I do have a connection, of sort, to that civilization. My co-pilot’s family came from this Island, and we spent a lot of time talking about the place high above the clouds. His favorite joke was “if my ancestors could find Rapa Nui, I can definitely find the damn airport.” He was indeed a brilliant navigator.

My first name is not Spanish. It’s not French either.

Yes, I am of Easter European origin, living for 30+ years in New York.

No, I am not Polynesian.

The Birdman subject cannot be answered in one line; it requires a long yam-like essay, so maybe that one is a good topic for another day.

The glyphs also require a long yam-like essay to answer your question, so maybe that could be our next topic after Birdman. The short answer is no, those are not my interpretations; I don’t have any interpretations of my own of RongoRongo. They come from work of several people who committed their entire lives to the project of researching RongoRongo. I did study their work extensively.

“I was stating researched facts on the topics of Rapa Nui…” nope, you did not. You presented a result of your 10-minute google binge without actually understanding the subject matter and offering far reaching opinions.

I am not shouting down the links you provided; I am shouting down your assumptions based on a very limited amount of your knowledge in these matters. For the life of me, I don’t understand why you are so compelled to offer such opinions, but you do.

For example, you imply that the “birdman is the name of the winner of the contest… there are some religious elements to it, but overall it sound more like an Ironman competition.” In IronMan competitions the contestants swim, run and bike for an extended period of time. I know quite a lot about the subject because I participated in IronMan event last year after training for months.
On Rapa Nui, the contestants of “IronMan-like competition” never became Birdman. The contestants were young kids called Hopu, which were appointed by Chiefs. So Hopu scaled sheer cliffs and swam with the sharks, and often died in the process. When they won, it was not them, but the Chiefs who appointed them who become Birdman.

Your Holocaust example crosses all lines of decency. Especially when it is directed to a person who’s entire family went through the horrors of concentration camps. My grandmother is a candidate to become a Christian Saint for her activities at Auschwitz. The entry to the Auschwitz Museum is located on a street bearing her name.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Midwife+at+Auschwitz%3A+the+story+of+Stanislawa+Leszczynska.-a0130564530

[AndreCamp]

I absolutely love the "circle effect" back. I'll think about a donation...

[tomas]

thanks @andrecamp, that one took a lot of time to figure out.

The fan creates a symbol of Sun God, a subject of another topic if anyone cares to discuss it.

The short version is that the civilization of Rapa Nui was extremely advanced in their knowledge of navigation and astronomy, and the Sun was an important element of their culture. Finding a tiny island in the middle of Pacific was an amazing feat of navigation.

The name of the island, in their most ancient form, was “the Navel of the World.”

[Don Boyer]

Your Holocaust example crosses all lines of decency. Especially when it is directed to a person who’s entire family went through the horrors of concentration camps. My grandmother is a candidate to become a Christian Saint for her activities at Auschwitz. The entry to the Auschwitz Museum is located on a street bearing her name.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Midwife+at+Auschwitz%3A+the+story+of+Stanislawa+Leszczynska.-a0130564530

I have family who were displaced by the war when German troops destroyed their villages in the Soviet Union - they were fortunate enough to have evaded capture, which for Jews like them would have likely been a death sentence.  (I myself am not Jewish, but my wife, her family and my father's father's father are.)  I wasn't so much pointing out the Holocaust as I was the people who deny established facts despite overwhelming evidence as evidenced by the other examples I presented - the lunar landings, the Kennedy assassination, the death of Elvis.  Many people, for a variety of reasons not based in fact, deny these historical events ever took place.  If the comparison offended you, I sincerely apologize.

I for one do not deny the tragic, horrific events the Third Reich inflicted on the world and am grateful to live in a time that's at least somewhat more stable.  From the article you linked to in your post, your grandmother was a brave, heroic yet unassuming person doing the impossible under the worst conditions imaginable.  I am humbled to know people like her existed in this world and fervently hope they still do.  You must be exceptionally proud of her - I know I would be, in your shoes.

I think, after reading your most recent post, that while we aren't on the exact same page, we do at least appear to be on the same chapter.  For me, it's close enough that as far as the details, we agree on certain facts, not on others, and that's all there is to it.  I apologize for having steered this topic into directions best left untaken.

Best of luck to you and may your project turn out successful.  You're clearly passionate enough about it to give it your best efforts.

[tomas]

We are extremely proud of her. In your last post you made an assumption which is factually incorrect.

As to beiing on the same chapter about the deck, I don't think we are in the same gallaxy. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

From the designer's point of view the closest we ever came to discuss the design of the deck were comments about Birdman's butt. Those were priceless, so thanks.

[Magasaki]

It seems there are now 2 more 'limited' tuck box designs available on this project. A Limited, and a 'Special Reserve' that look identical to each other except the colour of the label. 5 decks is milking this a bit to much to me so due to this I think I will be cancelling my current pledge. I do like to collect all versions of a deck but they need to offer a little more than being limited just for the sake of it. I find this a little insulting to backers.

[publius]

My reputation may take a hit for taking an unpopular stance on this debate, as is evident by Tomas' rating - but I can't just let it pass. Tomas opened the topic excited about his new design, based around a culture that he is extremely interested and knowledgable about, and was subjected to the third degree for several perceived microscopic discrepancies. I really don't think that was fair honestly. I think Don is an extremely intelligent guy, and I think Tomas is very knowledgable about this particular culture I really know nothing about. He's no more or less sensitive than anyone else would be about their politics, religion, culture, ethnics, etc. if they perceived to be insulted about them. I re-read the entire thread, and things really went south when Don replied "Kid, you've got a pretty good patter, but I've got fresh batteries in my BS detector and the needle's in the red."

I think Don, given his legendary status on this forum, and in card collecting in general, enjoys a certain level of insulation and protection from criticism or debate. Tomas, a fairly new member, is going to immediately be targeted for challenging Don in any way, even if Don instigates the friction - and I'm not saying he did. This is just an observation. I do think Tomas has been unfairly criticized, and his reputation has taken a disproportionate hit for merely defending a position really important to him, and I don't really see evidence of him being truly out of line. I know Don is popular, and I think that tips the scales. If the exact same debate were waged word for word on this forum, but the players were myself and Tomas instead of Don and Tomas, the outcome would be vastly different, and the support from the rest of the community for one side or the other would probably be more equitably distributed.

And contrary to conventional wisdom, reputation IS important within this community. Although it has no functional use other than with a reputation of 1 someone can post in the STISO forum; reputation is the first look community members get at an unknown or new member. Someone with a reputation deep in the negative is immediately branded as a troublemaker or some other such label. Don's reputation is through the roof, and thus he is correctly viewed as a board legend.

Although it may appear otherwise, I'm really not taking "sides" as it were. I think everyone needs to just drop it and move on. But I call it as I see it, and I do think Tomas has been treated disproportionately. And I have grown to really enjoy and respect Don on these forums. His insight and expertise has been priceless to a new collector like myself. I look forward to his every response on these forums, as I always come away learning something new.

My position on this matter may be an unpopular one, and if you feel the need to ding my reputation for saying so, feel free. I needed to say it, and now that I have, I'm over it. Thank you for reading this.

[Don Boyer]

There are a few simple, general points I want to make clear about the forum as a whole.  I do apologize to Tomas for having to present them in the middle of the topic about his deck.

Dissenting opinions are WELCOME here.  If everyone here agreed with me, this board would grow stale and moldy tout de suite.  People with differing opinions and the willingness to discuss them openly and without rancor are part and parcel of a thriving discussion.

Posters should NOT get their reputation dinged simply because they disagree with someone.  If anything, they should get their rep bumped higher, for creating a more stimulating conversation!  Now if someone's acting like a jerk, leaving spam, posting without actually contributing to the conversation - those would be reasons for lowering the rep of a poster, because as the link states, they're the essence of a "bad poster".  Tomas was NOT a bad poster, though I did have a hard time understanding a few of the things he said, but that's as common as dirt around here because many people here have not been speaking and writing English since their infancy.  So even that's not a reason to lower a reputation - it's a reason to ask for clarification, instead.

Publius, I'm glad that you feel as you do about me and my posts, but I'm still just a mortal human being.  I'm capable of magnificent blunders, just like the rest of us, though naturally I try to avoid them.  I'm always awed by how my reputation score has increased since I started posting here, but at the same time I do my level-headed best to remember that my score plus four quarters will still add up to only a dollar, nothing more.

TL;DR - a person who's sole "crime" is disagreeing with you is NOT a bad poster.

[publius]

Agreed!

[Rob Wright]

......and another try!  Good luck with the re-launch.
RongoRongo 3 Playing Cards USPCC Bicycle Moai



I know JR originally was going to do a gilded version of the Army deck, but has since said probably will not do. It sounded like the whole process was going to be a pain in the ass. My understanding is that USPCC min run for gilding is 10k or 15k. Tomas, are you going to have the decks gilded by USPCC, or someone else?

DECKS AVAILABLE NOW

1. Bicycle RongoRongo GOLD

DECKS LOCKED

The following decks will be unlocked when we reach certain funding levels:
•Bicycle RongoRongo BLACK
•Bicycle RongoRongo GILDED
•MOAI RongoRongo GOLD
•MOAI RongoRongo BLACK
•MOAI RongoRongo GILDED

[Rose]

I am not here for one day and look what happens...WTF is going on? 

[Don Boyer]

Wow, six decks.  No, wait - it's NOT six decks, it's just THREE, each appearing in TWO different boxes.

I hate when people do that.

Well, most of the decks are stretch goals, anyway - we'll see what happens.  Honestly, I hope he succeeds - I hope most decks succeed.  It's not a horrible-looking deck, and trust me, I've seen FAR worse.