Questions about KickStarter Shipping

[_Daniel_]

I'm from the UK and have backed a few projects, but these are some questions that have been in the back of my head.

• How do the rewards normally get sent out to the US backers, ie is it as a parcel, padded envelope etc and what proportion of the ~$10-12 does it take up?.
• International Shipping seems to vary somewhat, form ~$5 to ~$10-12 for one deck (and by extension, for other tiers). Is there a reason for this?
• Do you think that the extra cost of shipping decks internationally is the main reason that almost always >75% of backers are from US?

Some random questions but these questions come to me when thinking about KickStarter!

Thanks Guys 

[Magic_Orthodoxy]

1 It varies, but typically it's a padded envelope from the regular postman

2. Yes, international shipping cost a lot and some project creators are generous, some are right on the money, and some over charge

3. Absolutely

[Rob Wright]

Dan,
This is a huge problem on KS. It will continue to be a problem until KS changes there policy. There is no reason why they can't separate all shipping and make it exact to each order. As long as they are making an extra 5% on the shipping. Then it's not going to change.
If someone is only charging $5 to ship a deck international- then they are loosing money. Most projects are in the $9-$12 range. To ship to the UK, it may not cost that much. To ship to Australia is more. The shipping gets averaged, and some pay more than they should, some less.
I know some designers will use a fulfillment company overseas. That way, they send the decks in bulk to the company- they send it to each backer. I'm not sure how much money that saves. 

[JacksonRobinson]

Shipping sucks no matter how you slice it. Rob was correct when he said the problem will NEVER be solved until KS changes the method but unfortunately they wont change it.

I have shipped 1 or 2 decks and my advise would be to charge a fair and reasonable price for your shipping. Even if you provide free shipping there will 300 people who gripe that it is too expensive. If you think I'm kidding or being sarcastic, I am sadly not. Do over charge for it and DO NOT under charge as that will lead to you going bankrupt and then no one will get any rewards and that is worse than expensive shipping.

[Rose]

Dan,
This is a huge problem on KS. It will continue to be a problem until KS changes there policy. There is no reason why they can't separate all shipping and make it exact to each order. As long as they are making an extra 5% on the shipping. Then it's not going to change.
If someone is only charging $5 to ship a deck international- then they are loosing money. Most projects are in the $9-$12 range. To ship to the UK, it may not cost that much. To ship to Australia is more. The shipping gets averaged, and some pay more than they should, some less.
I know some designers will use a fulfillment company overseas. That way, they send the decks in bulk to the company- they send it to each backer. I'm not sure how much money that saves.

As an Australian I can confirm the shipping is insane, and not just on KS decks but in general.
From US to AUS I once paid $20 for a t-shirt and $35 for shipping. The other point is that international buyers, like myself, are just used to it, it is what we have to pay to get the decks.
I definitely have to agree with Jackson Robinson, he is an expert trust what he says and don't undercharge, you just risk the chance of not delivering the rewards and no one will forgive you for that.

[_Daniel_]

1 It varies, but typically it's a padded envelope from the regular postman

2. Yes, international shipping cost a lot and some project creators are generous, some are right on the money, and some over charge

3. Absolutely

Thanks for the insight. On the third point, I think it is also a massive problem that in a lot of countries you get charged VAT on an import (about 20% in most cases I believe) + handling fees which can mean with shipping that one deck is almost 3x more expensive, which is a problem obviously.

[_Daniel_]

Dan,
This is a huge problem on KS. It will continue to be a problem until KS changes there policy. There is no reason why they can't separate all shipping and make it exact to each order. As long as they are making an extra 5% on the shipping. Then it's not going to change.
If someone is only charging $5 to ship a deck international- then they are loosing money. Most projects are in the $9-$12 range. To ship to the UK, it may not cost that much. To ship to Australia is more. The shipping gets averaged, and some pay more than they should, some less.
I know some designers will use a fulfillment company overseas. That way, they send the decks in bulk to the company- they send it to each backer. I'm not sure how much money that saves.

Am I understanding it correctly then to think that when setting up a KS project there are the options for 1. Shipping to US. and 2. Shipping to anywhere else. ? If so, that really is crazy.

[_Daniel_]

Shipping sucks no matter how you slice it. Rob was correct when he said the problem will NEVER be solved until KS changes the method but unfortunately they wont change it.

I have shipped 1 or 2 decks and my advise would be to charge a fair and reasonable price for your shipping. Even if you provide free shipping there will 300 people who gripe that it is too expensive. If you think I'm kidding or being sarcastic, I am sadly not. Do over charge for it and DO NOT under charge as that will lead to you going bankrupt and then no one will get any rewards and that is worse than expensive shipping.

This problem is a real shame, and even more so because international backers are just used to it at this point as Rose said. I know that personally I wanted to back for many more decks of a few projects because I knew I would use and love using them, but it can spiral in relation to cost.

In your experience, were fulfillment companies something you considered? I know I could easily partner with a KS project to fulfill projects in Europe for about $5 for 1-4 decks and $10 for larger, this also meaning that no VAT would need to be paid by a backer in Europe on their 'purchase' by EU law, but it doesn't seem like KS are built for allowing this kind of thing to occur, ie different rates for EU customers.

PS. I wasn't asking this with the idea of me setting up a playing card project in mind (art skills so not good enough for that!) but I hope maybe someone who is may see your post and be saved some troubles!

[Paul.Middleton]

I'm from the UK and have backed a few projects, but these are some questions that have been in the back of my head.

• How do the rewards normally get sent out to the US backers, ie is it as a parcel, padded envelope etc and what proportion of the ~$10-12 does it take up?.
• International Shipping seems to vary somewhat, form ~$5 to ~$10-12 for one deck (and by extension, for other tiers). Is there a reason for this?
• Do you think that the extra cost of shipping decks internationally is the main reason that almost always >75% of backers are from US?

Some random questions but these questions come to me when thinking about KickStarter!

Thanks Guys 

I don't think naive generosity is the sole for some charging $5 and others $12 for shipping. Some are factoring that into the cost of the deck in my opinion, and the deck is perhaps $14 instead of $11 to allow for this. Ironically this means US backers suffer when this happens as they are effectively subsidising lower shopping for non-US backers.

To answer your last point, I think the inherent history and culture of cards and USPC In the US coupled with Kickstarter reaching a serious level of market domination and public
awareness perhaps can explain that 75% but it's debatable.

[Paul.Middleton]

In your experience, were fulfillment companies something you considered? I know I could easily partner with a KS project to fulfill projects in Europe for about $5 for 1-4 decks and $10 for larger, this also meaning that no VAT would need to be paid by a backer in Europe on their 'purchase' by EU law, but it doesn't seem like KS are built for allowing this kind of thing to occur, ie different rates for EU customers.

Technically they may still end up paying the VAT but just not know it, if the project creator is sending his decks to an EU fulfilment house and they've paid 20% customs on arrival, that cost has to be accounted for somewhere. The only reasonable assumption to make in my opinion would be that it's included in the project at the outset. So they may not be paying he 20% VAT on import but they would elsewhere, having said that they would likely save themselves the handling fee from the postal service.

[_Daniel_]

In your experience, were fulfillment companies something you considered? I know I could easily partner with a KS project to fulfill projects in Europe for about $5 for 1-4 decks and $10 for larger, this also meaning that no VAT would need to be paid by a backer in Europe on their 'purchase' by EU law, but it doesn't seem like KS are built for allowing this kind of thing to occur, ie different rates for EU customers.

Technically they may still end up paying the VAT but just not know it, if the project creator is sending his decks to an EU fulfilment house and they've paid 20% customs on arrival, that cost has to be accounted for somewhere. The only reasonable assumption to make in my opinion would be that it's included in the project at the outset. So they may not be paying he 20% VAT on import but they would elsewhere, having said that they would likely save themselves the handling fee from the postal service.

Thanks for both replies. I see what you mean about the factoring it into the overall price, I do however find it hard to argue against it!  The VAT conversation is a really hard one, because it is rather unrelated to the project creator, they don't have to account for it in shipping price and it doesn't help fund the project, just the local governments. So any offer from an EU fulfillment company would save the customer the import VAT and pay it themselves on arrival. What I'm trying to get at is that the saving of the customer, if an EU fulfillment service were to be used for EU customers, is much larger than the saving made by the KS creator. I think the saving for the project creator only comes from sending one bulk package instead of a hideous number of parcels. I could quote numbers I've found from research I've done if wanted.

[bhong]

I believe that business in the US are able to use International Priority Airmail by USPS. What that does do is take all the packages for Canada, for example and you get charged a rate for all those packages combined instead of them separately. I know some fulfilment companies do use that service though word of warning is that if that's the method us, the tracking number for those packages become extremely unreliable and, at times, useless. Jackson bought it best in that you should charge the right amount 'cause it's so easily to under-charge for shipping and end up going in the red pretty badly. I've seen a few projects I've backed with that happening before.

Back to question 3 of your's from before, at least for me, I avoid some projects 'cause of the huge cost of shipping. Some books cost 20$, but shipping is 25$ which is pretty crazy.

[Don Boyer]

Daniel - a complex solution to the problem would be to petition your democratically-elected government to rescind VAT and duties on foreign-made playing cards.  It won't solve the shipping issue but it will make your shipments from the US more affordable.

Bhong - Anything faster than plain, ordinary First Class mail sent internationally can be prohibitively expensive when using the US Postal Service.  Few US card companies will send by International Priority Mail and the ones that do charge through the nose for it.

A Priority Mail Small Flat Rate Box can hold perhaps a half-dozen decks if you stack them well.  To Canada, it costs $20.55 in-store or $19.50 if ordered online.  The same box to the UK is $24.75/$23.50.  Send it to Australia (or most other countries, including Mexico, our neighbor to the south) and it runs the same as to the UK.  It generally takes 6 to 10 business days and you can ship a maximum of four pounds, definitely more than any six packs of poker-sized playing cards I've ever seen.

The same decks sent by first-class mail in a one-pound package (no flat rate option available) is $10.50/$9.50 to Canada, $16.75/$15.08 to most of the rest of the world.  This is the more commonly-used option.  There's also the matter of purchasing (or re-using) packaging, since it's not provided for First Class as it is for the other services, which have a Flat Rate option based on size more than weight.

The same decks sent in a Priority Mail Express (formerly known as Express Mail) Flat Rate Padded Envelope will cost $35.95/$33.00 to Canada and $46.50/$42.75 to most of the rest of the world.  Takes half as long as Priority Mail.

Also, bear in mind that none of these include the cost of the employee who tapes the box, fills it with packing material and addresses it to you...

[Rose]

1. Not sure if this effects you, but remember that rewards for pledges on KS are exactly that, meaning technically they can be sent as gifts, no one is buying anything on KS ever, you are sending "rewards" for pledges, talk to your accountant.
2. I personally would be happy to pay and extra few dollars to know the decks wil be delivered.
3. Backers want to see you succeed with the project, not go bankrupt.

Edit:added words

[bhong]

I've definitely had rewards from Kickstarter marked as gifts, but depending on the country customs might still need to be paid on it. For example, I know even for gifts, the UK has a pretty low value before they charge customs. I've had things all over the place with Canada, but I believe the customs on gifts isn't charged until 120$ is exceeded as the marked value.

USPS International Priority Airmail (https://www.usps.com/business/international-priority-airmail.htm) , not to be confused with International Priority Mail,  is an odd bulk mail service that can be cheaper than USPS First Class for the simple fact that for packages, it's the initial charges that is expensive (ie. 10$ as the base charge and then each additional pound is relatively cheap). So International Priority Airmail, from my understanding of it, takes the 20 packages (for example) being sent to Canada and charges it all together as one package. Once it reaches the postal system in Canada, it's handled as 1st Class (sometimes tracking will work and sometimes it won't). I've gotten packages via this mean before. It's a business only option by USPS.

[Don Boyer]

I've definitely had rewards from Kickstarter marked as gifts, but depending on the country customs might still need to be paid on it. For example, I know even for gifts, the UK has a pretty low value before they charge customs. I've had things all over the place with Canada, but I believe the customs on gifts isn't charged until 120$ is exceeded as the marked value.

USPS International Priority Airmail (https://www.usps.com/business/international-priority-airmail.htm) , not to be confused with International Priority Mail,  is an odd bulk mail service that can be cheaper than USPS First Class for the simple fact that for packages, it's the initial charges that is expensive (ie. 10$ as the base charge and then each additional pound is relatively cheap). So International Priority Airmail, from my understanding of it, takes the 20 packages (for example) being sent to Canada and charges it all together as one package. Once it reaches the postal system in Canada, it's handled as 1st Class (sometimes tracking will work and sometimes it won't). I've gotten packages via this mean before. It's a business only option by USPS.

Technically, rewards are NOT gifts.  If you've exchanged cash for it with a commercial entity, it's purchased goods, despite Kickstarter's insistence to the contrary.  Companies/creators are required by Kickstarter rules to provide rewards or refunds - I've never heard of mandatory gifts.

I've definitely had rewards from Kickstarter marked as gifts, but depending on the country customs might still need to be paid on it. For example, I know even for gifts, the UK has a pretty low value before they charge customs. I've had things all over the place with Canada, but I believe the customs on gifts isn't charged until 120$ is exceeded as the marked value.

USPS International Priority Airmail (https://www.usps.com/business/international-priority-airmail.htm) , not to be confused with International Priority Mail,  is an odd bulk mail service that can be cheaper than USPS First Class for the simple fact that for packages, it's the initial charges that is expensive (ie. 10$ as the base charge and then each additional pound is relatively cheap). So International Priority Airmail, from my understanding of it, takes the 20 packages (for example) being sent to Canada and charges it all together as one package. Once it reaches the postal system in Canada, it's handled as 1st Class (sometimes tracking will work and sometimes it won't). I've gotten packages via this mean before. It's a business only option by USPS.

Business-only is correct.  It's probably more cost effective, but I imagine there's a few regulatory hoops that have to be jumped through, such as having a business license.  While it's a good idea for a project creator to have one, I'm guessing many don't - and they also don't come free.  I'm not saying this service is a good idea or a bad one, just one that would require more research and that likely has some hidden costs.

[Paul.Middleton]

Thanks for both replies. I see what you mean about the factoring it into the overall price, I do however find it hard to argue against it!  The VAT conversation is a really hard one, because it is rather unrelated to the project creator, they don't have to account for it in shipping price and it doesn't help fund the project, just the local governments. So any offer from an EU fulfillment company would save the customer the import VAT and pay it themselves on arrival. What I'm trying to get at is that the saving of the customer, if an EU fulfillment service were to be used for EU customers, is much larger than the saving made by the KS creator. I think the saving for the project creator only comes from sending one bulk package instead of a hideous number of parcels. I could quote numbers I've found from research I've done if wanted.

You're welcome. No need to show the numbers - I'm sure it would show a saving, but it just depends on the quality of the service and fulfilment from the company used as to whether it's worth it. Shipping decks is an art (yes I said it! Lol) and there are plenty of companies that would be great value and reputable but wouldn't do a great job sending decks I a way which prevents damage -just ask Jackson, that's the reason he started Kings Wild Fulfilment. I personally think that you can't compensate for the love and care of shipping being done by someone who has a passion for decks. I could (but obviously won't) list a number of playing card producers in the US who send their decks in a way that means 10-15% of the decks (at least) are damaged each time a parcel arrives. What it costs them in extra postage and replacements far outweighs what it would cost for some extra bubble wrap or foam. Almost all of those companies use fulfilment companies.