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Breaking Bad themed deck =)

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Breaking Bad themed deck =)
« on: July 25, 2014, 10:30:50 PM »
 

boxmasterx

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I am new to this forum and was referred here by a member on kickstarter who stated there may be some interested people here. Thanks for the support in advance and sharing the link is as good as any.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/952714305/breaking-bad-themed-playing-cards
 

Re: Breaking Bad themed deck =)
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2014, 12:43:25 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I'm assuming this is Alexander Debia.  Regardless, welcome to the Discourse!

I really think you should take down your project and look into a number of issues first, not the least of which being that you haven't obtained the rights to the property.  I've seen projects (and people) absolutely destroyed as a result of not obtaining the rights to create a deck based on someone else's intellectual property.  The prime example would be the Bicycle Army Men deck - a deck that succeeded in raising the needed funds and was held up in legal limbo for several months.  That issue, combined with some financial mismanagement, led to the deck never getting made, though the creator was at least willing to accept responsibility and managed to refund all of his backers.

http://www.playingcardforum.com/playing-card-plethora/bicycle-army-men-%28ks%29-a-%27successful%27-failure/?all

There was even a previous "Breaking Bad" deck attempted right here on Kickstarter.  That creator yanked the project, canceling it after only a single day.  There was a project called "Steampunk Heroes" that had some awesome artwork but the creator turned out to be mistaken about whether he held the intellectual rights from Lego, as his artwork was all custom-altered Lego creations.  One cease-and-desist letter to Kickstarter, and you can't even find the project in the search function any longer.  But you need not take my word for it - read about them yourself:

http://www.playingcardforum.com/playing-card-plethora/steampunk-heroes-deck-now-in-legal-limbo/?all

I couldn't find the topic on the previous Breaking Bad deck, but here's the project page.  Note that the cancellation occurred one day after launch.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/257343501/breaking-bad-playing-cards

Not to mention that USPC won't even touch a project if the intellectual property issues haven't been clearly resolved and you can prove you have a right to create your deck based on someone else's work.  Fan deck or no fan deck, doesn't matter.  I have seen exactly one fan deck go on to become a success - Cards of Legend, loosely based on the Legend of Zelda videogames.  The creator succeeded because nowhere did he mention the game, its name, the names of any characters, locations, objects, etc. in the game and the symbols he used for suit had enough prior art in existence that Nintendo couldn't claim them as intellectual property.  Furthermore, the character art created was not in the style of the videogame, thus making them appear adequately different enough that Nintendo didn't pursue the issue.

So intellectual property is a major issue here.  But we haven't even gotten started on another important issue - pricing and budgeting.

How can you make an estimate that is anything but a stab in the dark when you haven't even secured the services of a printer yet?  You state that you've sent inquiries to "Bicycle" - Bicycle is not a company, it's a brand name.  It's like me having a phone call with Gatorade and gossiping about what Tamagotchi was doing in the back of Big Mac's new nightclub...  The company is the United States Playing Card Company, alternately known as USPCC or, in more recent years, USPC.

Now, those inquiries can't have gotten far if you came up with an estimate of $5,000 for getting the deck made.  A minimum print run with USPC is 2,500 decks, plus or minus 10%, and a typical project cost to deliver even a simple deck with minimal extra features would run at least $12,000 these days.  There are other card companies that can make your deck for less and make a smaller print run - but most smaller print runs are expensive on a per-deck basis, possibly costing you more than the $10 you charge for one deck, or (bizarrely) the $25 you charge for two decks.  I say "bizarrely" as most projects will offer a discount rather than a penalty for ordering more cards.

By the way, not counting your $1 pledge, you will need to sell 83.33% of the cash value of your rewards just to reach your goal - and that bizarre pricing won't be doing you any favors as you try getting there.  Do you have any idea what getting 400 decks and 50 uncuts made will cost you?  You should, because that's the exact amount your projects commits you to provide.  USPC wouldn't even consider it, and your per-deck costs will be high.  Here's some estimates I pulled from MPC at makeplayingcards.com - they get their decks manufactured in China and shipped to the US.
  • Start with a custom face, custom back deck and a quantity needed of 400 decks.
  • For $4.00 a pack, you get 54-card poker decks in your design, printed on smooth 300gsm blue-core paper and cellophane-wrapped, no box.
  • Add $0.60 to upgrade the stock to linen-finish 310gsm black-core paper.
  • Add $0.10 for a plain white tuck box, with or without a window.  Alternately, you can instead add $0.30 for a plastic box.  A custom tuck box is more costly - it says on the pull-down list that it starts at $0.20 per box, but states elsewhere that it's "as little as $0.60 per box" and the price goes up to $1.00 per box if you select it on the pulldown - bringing you to $5.60 so far.
  • Uncut sheets will cost you $13.60 each - it's the strange math of the playing card business that the unfinished product - which is all that an uncut sheet really is - costs more than a finished deck in box.
  • It'll cost $188.99 for seven-day delivery of the decks, no mention of the delivery cost on the uncut sheets.
  • So here's where the math leads us:
    • $2,240.00 - 400 custom decks in custom tucks
    • $  680.00 - 50 uncut sheets
    • $  188.99 - shipping (not counting the uncuts - we'll pretend for now that they're free)
    • $3,108.99 - total manufacturing cost.

This is simply the cost of getting some cheaply-made decks to your front doorstep.  You still have to cope with the costs of the packing materials and postage ('cause you will be using the US Postal Service, 'cause you will not find a better price anywhere else in Parcel-land).  That can run you over a grand without breaking a sweat, especially since your tiers offer the least cost-effective quantities: 1-deck and 2-deck packages often end up costing the creator more money than what they've alloted for shipping, because it would raise the cost of a deck too high to be appealing to potential backers.  They usually make it up in orders of three decks or more, but you don't have that option, so you don't get that cushion.

Simply put, even if you do succeed and sell all the decks, you may still end up losing money in the process, or at the least making so little as for it to not be worth the time and effort you put into it.

Hey, don't take any of this personally.  We are NOT attacking you as a person here.  I'm going into such depth about your project and the inherent flaws because a) we're passionate about collecting, b) we hate when decent projects fail - or worse, simply fail to deliver and c) the project, as it stands, has a very slim chance of success in terms of passing its legal and financial hurdles, hurdles that really should be crossed BEFORE you even get as far as typing "kicksta" in the web browser's address bar.

My best possible advice:
  • Close your Kickstarter project IMMEDIATELY.
  • SECURE THAT LICENSE - without it, your deck goes nowhere, period.  Do not lift a pen or a digital brush without doing this first, because if you don't get a license, you'd be wasting a lot of effort that could be put elsewhere.  If you can't get that license, look into creating a new and unique project you can call your own and doesn't require an IP lawyer to get it made.  (Though when signing a contract, it would be prudent to have a contract lawyer look it over for you so you fully understand the terms.  Money spent now can save many times more money down the road.)
  • Create a topic for your deck here, on the Design and Development board.
  • Get opinions, ask questions - then separate the wheat from the chaff and apply what you feel is best for the project.  We have a number of experienced deck designers here that would be willing to toss out a few tips if you asked nicely.
  • Start contacting playing card companies - we have a number of them we can suggest to you.
  • Only then, after doing everything above, should you consider launching a project on Kickstarter.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 01:35:18 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Breaking Bad themed deck =)
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2014, 06:25:21 AM »
 

boxmasterx

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OK I completely understand. The intellectual property belonging to AMC is what I believe you are referring to. I really had no intention of anything illegal here or on kick starter. Would you be able to suggest anything to be able to get around the issue as in the Zelda deck you talked about? I believe people would love a deck like this and if necessary then I will attempt contact with AMC if I can even get that far, If not this seems like a lost cause. Also shouldn't kickstarter not allow a project with such serious stipulation to be approved for backing? As for getting in contact with bicycle I was rreferring to this http://www.bicyclecards.com/custom-playing-cards
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 06:30:07 AM by boxmasterx »
 

Re: Breaking Bad themed deck =)
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2014, 07:00:15 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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OK I completely understand. The intellectual property belonging to AMC is what I believe you are referring to. I really had no intention of anything illegal here or on kick starter. Would you be able to suggest anything to be able to get around the issue as in the Zelda deck you talked about? I believe people would love a deck like this and if necessary then I will attempt contact with AMC if I can even get that far, If not this seems like a lost cause. Also shouldn't kickstarter not allow a project with such serious stipulation to be approved for backing? As for getting in contact with bicycle I was rreferring to this http://www.bicyclecards.com/custom-playing-cards

In this case, a workaround would be difficult at best.  For the Cards of Legend, the images were representations of video game characters - works of fiction and artistry not based on or modeled after real people.  You're creating art that represents real people from a TV show, and the laws get interesting when you're not portraying them as anything other than characters in the TV show.  You'd need to get rights to the images of all the actors individually - an order of magnitude more difficult than simply obtaining a license from AMC.  You'd still be limited in how you could portray them, too.

I'm going to be honest with you - because you've got no prior experience in making a deck and the art's not even yours so you have no graphic design background, it's a serious longshot that they'd consider leaving the creation of such a deck in your hands.  You'd have to present them with some of the most impressive art they've ever seen - and even then, the best possible scenario would be that they'd probably be more inclined to hire your artist to do the work on commission and place the project in more experienced hands.

Kickstarter specifically stipulates that they bear no such responsibility - you, the creator, are responsible for making sure you crossed your t's and dotted your i's.  Of course, if a lawyer handed them a cease-and-desist letter, there's no doubt that they'd comply, taking your project down and burying it in the far reaches and dark corners of the Internet.  They don't even accept responsibility if you fail to deliver on your project.  They have a rule that a creator is required to deliver, but when informed of a case of fraud, they tell the backers that they are responsible for doing their own due diligence when investing and to contact their local authorities about the fraud.  Amazing, really - they sit back, let the whole thing run on autopilot and just keep raking in the fees.  Sounds like a license to mint money...

You referred to getting the company name from bicyclecards.com.  There's a website out there called gatorade.com - does that mean that Gatorade is a company?  Of course not.  It's still just a brand name, at present owned by Pepsico.  Just as Bicycle is a brand name of the US Playing Card Company - which itself is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Jarden Company.  Using Bicycle as the company name makes collectors take you less seriously.
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Re: Breaking Bad themed deck =)
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2014, 03:10:51 PM »
 

boxmasterx

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I would have loved to see this project through.I have cancelled the project. Thank you for the information, next time I will be well prepared If I decide to create a project with trademarked material.
 

Re: Breaking Bad themed deck =)
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2014, 10:00:17 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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I would have loved to see this project through.I have cancelled the project. Thank you for the information, next time I will be well prepared If I decide to create a project with trademarked material.

Better yet, work with your artist and create something wholly unique and devoid of copyright issues.  You can post about it here.  The artwork was pretty good, so why not?
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
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Re: Breaking Bad themed deck =)
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2014, 12:22:40 AM »
 

AlbinoDragon

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Yeah, I know a company already has the licensing rights for Breaking Bad so I'm sure we'll see one early next year.

I would agree with Don that creating your own IPs is definitely a much safer route to avoid litigation. 
 

Re: Breaking Bad themed deck =)
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2014, 11:21:22 PM »
 

sprouts1115

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"Yeah, I know a company already has the licensing rights for Breaking Bad so I'm sure we'll see one early next year."

I sit in awe...